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Union Label

(545 posts)
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:17 PM Nov 2015

Maryland is stopping a good program that identifies guns used in crimes

This sucks balls I was hoping it or something similar would be law here in California soon. I guess the gunnuts will just say look Maryland stopped using it so why would we need it?

I don't know why anyone would't want to help solve gun crimes it just makes sense doesn't it?
snipped

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap.

"Obviously, I'm disappointed," said former Gov. Parris N. Glendening, a Democrat whose administration pushed for the database to fulfill a campaign promise. "It's a little unfortunate, in that logic and common sense suggest that it would be a good crime-fighting tool."
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-bullet-casings-20151107-story.html
45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Maryland is stopping a good program that identifies guns used in crimes (Original Post) Union Label Nov 2015 OP
Is it so hard to understand sarisataka Nov 2015 #1
Yep SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #3
True sounds like a dud. Maryland can use the money for other successful programs that work. yeoman6987 Nov 2015 #7
NT Union Label Nov 2015 #14
I don't think you understand the science. X_Digger Nov 2015 #15
Evidence JonathanRackham Nov 2015 #26
How long and how much money sarisataka Nov 2015 #17
Well, union, the "snipped" portion in your OP rather explains why it was cancelled... Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #37
There is major flaw in the system. NutmegYankee Nov 2015 #2
from the article, it sounds like for the MD system they were not unique and got 100s of matches Amishman Nov 2015 #42
I don't have any info on the NY system. NutmegYankee Nov 2015 #43
That was a lightweight solution compared what lies for gun nuts down the road. onehandle Nov 2015 #4
The tipping point approacheth sarisataka Nov 2015 #9
"Next time, it'll be a five BILLION dollar program that won't solve any crimes!" friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #19
You lot sure love to make empty threats, don't you? friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #20
Uh huh. GGJohn Nov 2015 #22
Right after this happens: Lizzie Poppet Nov 2015 #35
Chalk up a win for the racist gun-toters mwrguy Nov 2015 #5
Can you give one good reason sarisataka Nov 2015 #12
Racist gun toters? GGJohn Nov 2015 #23
Actually, they *don't* wonder- they ignore any emprical evidence that disagrees with their dream friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #24
Stupidest post of the thread! Congrats! pipoman Nov 2015 #31
Intellectual laziness at it's worst. Lizzie Poppet Nov 2015 #36
I don't think it can be called a good program SickOfTheOnePct Nov 2015 #6
Stunning achievement ryan_cats Nov 2015 #8
Lots of reloads, lol Duckhunter935 Nov 2015 #11
Even ryan_cats Nov 2015 #13
NY Scrapped their program as well. (COBIS solved one case, and cost $44,000,000.) X_Digger Nov 2015 #10
Is Maryland smarter than New Yawk? JonathanRackham Nov 2015 #27
Waste of Money madville Nov 2015 #16
It took four years Kang Colby Nov 2015 #18
Because people that know about guns knew this would fail... krispos42 Nov 2015 #25
Please explain why you all knew this would fail? liberal N proud Nov 2015 #28
Read the posts here.... Adrahil Nov 2015 #29
The casings used were usually the first rounds fired from a new gun... pipoman Nov 2015 #32
And I was wondering just how many handguns that were purchased jmg257 Nov 2015 #34
Sure. krispos42 Nov 2015 #40
It's simple metallurgy. NutmegYankee Nov 2015 #41
Sure, part 2. krispos42 Nov 2015 #44
It was so good it Identified no guns in 15 years....not bad. ileus Nov 2015 #30
So Maryland and New York TeddyR Nov 2015 #33
What makes this program good? Brickbat Nov 2015 #38
Union: which would you spend the "small potatoes" $5,000,000 on: Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #39
There. Straw Man Nov 2015 #45

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
3. Yep
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:27 PM
Nov 2015

In theory it sounds like a good idea, and I'm not sure why it hasn't helped...but, it appears to be a huge waste of money.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
7. True sounds like a dud. Maryland can use the money for other successful programs that work.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:28 PM
Nov 2015

Nobody should be disappointed in this failure going away. Heart was in the right place but the program was a disaster.

Union Label

(545 posts)
14. NT
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:33 PM
Nov 2015

If no gun crimes were solved I'm sure it was only because either someone was not doing their job correctly or someone didn't want it solved.
This program just needed to keep running. And 5 million for 15 years seems like small potatoes after all how much is all the new toys the damn cops get every year?

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
15. I don't think you understand the science.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:35 PM
Nov 2015

Would a 'tire fingerprint' of your car be useful after you've put 30,000 miles on it? Would the tread still match?

Same problem.

JonathanRackham

(1,604 posts)
26. Evidence
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 07:54 AM
Nov 2015

Easy to plant evidence too. Pick up spent casings and bullets at a range and leave them at a crime scene. But hey the police don't care who goes away for a crime even if they're innocent.

sarisataka

(18,663 posts)
17. How long and how much money
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:44 PM
Nov 2015

should be wasted before calling it a bust and putting the money to use in programs that work? Or should they just act like the Pentagon and keep throwing money at a program until it does something, then declare it a success?

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
37. Well, union, the "snipped" portion in your OP rather explains why it was cancelled...
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 11:51 AM
Nov 2015


"Feel good" prohibition legislation can get awfully expensive.

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
2. There is major flaw in the system.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:26 PM
Nov 2015

A gun wears in as each bullet is fired and the barrel after normal break-in (300-500) rounds will not match the first round fired for the database. Ballistic fingerprinting only works if the bullet was fired recently and can be compared before the gun is used much afterwards.

Amishman

(5,557 posts)
42. from the article, it sounds like for the MD system they were not unique and got 100s of matches
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:53 PM
Nov 2015

Does anyone know if the NY system had the same problem, or was the MD system a flawed implementation?

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
43. I don't have any info on the NY system.
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 09:46 PM
Nov 2015

I'm just going on my engineering experience. Wear is a normal phenomenon in mechanical systems. It's especially bad in dry contact systems, like a bullet to barrel. Replacement barrels are available for that very reason.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
4. That was a lightweight solution compared what lies for gun nuts down the road.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:27 PM
Nov 2015

Tick tick tick...

The tipping point approacheth.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
21. "Next time, it'll be a five BILLION dollar program that won't solve any crimes!"
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 02:38 AM
Nov 2015

I rather doubt any gun owner is shaking in their boots with worry over empty boasts
from gun prohibitionists.

Response to onehandle (Reply #4)

sarisataka

(18,663 posts)
12. Can you give one good reason
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:32 PM
Nov 2015

a program that has been in effect for 15 years and cost $5 million without producing a single success should be continued?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
23. Racist gun toters?
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 02:46 AM
Nov 2015

And you and your ilk wonder why gun control is a smoking wreck in this country.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
24. Actually, they *don't* wonder- they ignore any emprical evidence that disagrees with their dream
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 06:15 AM
Nov 2015

As witness the OP expressing sadness that a "good" program (that solved not *one* crime
in 15 years
) got a long-delayed axing...

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
36. Intellectual laziness at it's worst.
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 10:59 AM
Nov 2015

Got nothing? Sling out nasty accusations of racism! That's some top-shelf thinkin' there, ace.

ryan_cats

(2,061 posts)
8. Stunning achievement
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:28 PM
Nov 2015

Stunning achievement. If you were the contractor.
...But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap...

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
10. NY Scrapped their program as well. (COBIS solved one case, and cost $44,000,000.)
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:31 PM
Nov 2015

The thing about a 'ballistic fingerprint' is that unlike the fingerprints on our hands, 'ballistic fingerprints' change with use of the firearm and cleaning. Fire 500 rounds of ammunition in an afternoon through a handgun, and the 'fingerprint' will have changed.

They're completely destroyed by replacing the barrel on the gun (a 5 minute procedure for many guns), something that many gun owners do to increase precision or to reduce wear and tear (like changing tires on a car.)

Matching a casing to a gun works when you find a freshly used gun on a suspect, and you have casings recently fired from it to compare to. With any length of use between the first point and the second, the 'fingerprint' match becomes inconclusive. Imagine a 'tire fingerprint' on your car as it rolls off the lot, and compare to the 'tire fingerprint' after 30,000 miles-- or after you get a new set of tires from Pep Boys.

The whole CSI / NCIS / Law & Order slew of tv shows have given folks an unrealistic expectation for the science of criminal forensics.

madville

(7,412 posts)
16. Waste of Money
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:37 PM
Nov 2015

That money could be better spent elsewhere, probably been going to some kind of politically-connected contractor anyway

 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
18. It took four years
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 11:50 PM
Nov 2015

for Maryland to realize the program was a failure, then another eleven years to shut it down. Ballistic databases and micostamping are just fairy tales used by gun control supporters to increase the cost of gun ownership. Nothing more.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
25. Because people that know about guns knew this would fail...
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 06:45 AM
Nov 2015

...But they were called "gun nutz" spouting "NRA talking points".

The technical issues, which were raised by knowledgeable people, were dismissed by gun-hating people that simply wanted something to piss off the NRA and attack "gun fetishists".

liberal N proud

(60,336 posts)
28. Please explain why you all knew this would fail?
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:01 AM
Nov 2015

A finger print can be used to identify a person in a crime. Why can't a fired shot be identified by the spent casing and or bullet?

Back it up, don't just post rhetoric.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
29. Read the posts here....
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:08 AM
Nov 2015

Such "ballistic finger primting" is only usefule if the reference "print" is from a time very close to the time the weapon was usedd in crime. Otherwise, wear dramatically reduces the chance of a match, and vastly increases the chace of flase positives if the criteria is widened. In short, it doesn't work. A lot of ballistics experts said so when these programs were introduced, but many gun control advocates aren't really technically aware people.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
32. The casings used were usually the first rounds fired from a new gun...
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:42 AM
Nov 2015

Every manufacturer advocates between 500 and 2000 rounds breakin period. After 100 rounds the casing mailed in would not be identifiable as from the same gun.

Someone above made an accurate comparison about taking a tire print of a new car and comparing it to a print off the same tire after 30k miles...worthless..

Gun controllers really don't care if their schemes don't work, they just want to do something even if it is wrong....and they certainly aren't interested in the opinions or even facts from the people who have technical knowledge of the subject.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
34. And I was wondering just how many handguns that were purchased
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 10:55 AM
Nov 2015

legally from a dealer in NY and Maryland, where registration and permits are required and casings would be sent in,
were actually used in crimes.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
40. Sure.
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 04:03 PM
Nov 2015

Unlike fingerprints, mechanical marks wear over time. The distinctive pattern of grooves that a gun barrel leaves on a bullet as the bullet is forced down the barrel will change due to mechanical wear. The barrel of a gun is slightly smaller than the bullet; the bullet is forced down the barrel under extreme friction to form a gas-tight seal.

Identifying a bullet fired from a particular gun (not just a make and model, but tying it to a unique serial number) depends on identifying slight, unique marks from the manufacturing process used to make the barrel.

As the barrel wears, the marks will fade or change.

Same thing for marks on a fired case from a handgun.


I'll continue this later.

NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
41. It's simple metallurgy.
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 07:18 PM
Nov 2015

Every time a bullet goes down the barrel it wears down the surface like sandpaper or a file. After just a hundred rounds or so the barrel will no longer leave the same marks as the slight imperfections in the machined surface wear away and leave new inperfections.

Fingerprints on a hand are replaced by skin cells that grow in only that pattern as the old skin sloughs off, but once metal is worn/eroded away, it doesn't get replaced.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
44. Sure, part 2.
Wed Nov 11, 2015, 07:25 PM
Nov 2015

A gun can be identified through ballistic fingerprinting assuming they find the gun before much wear has occurred on the moving parts of the gun. The classic example is the cops recovering slugs from a victim's body and finding a gun nearby that was apparently tossed away. The bullets test-fired from the recovered guns will be bullets fired right after the gun was used to kill somebody; the marks from the rifling on the bullets should be identical.


Now if you were to put two thousand rounds through the gun and then checked bullet #2,001 to the slug recovered from the victim, your case is much weaker because of the wear and tear that the rifling has been through.



Barrels can also be manually modified; deliberately damaged by a file to destroy evidence, for example. People who home-gunsmith also do stuff to improve the accuracy of their guns by polishing the rifling using various methods. The example below is called "fire lapping", performed by coating a few dozen bullets in increasingly-fine abrasive powder and shooting them down the barrel.

http://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm

And people use other things to scrub copper, lead, and powder residue from the barrels of their guns. Bronze-bristle brushes, fine steel wool, various cleaning chemicals.

I suppose somebody could also soak a barrel in battery acid to modify the ballistic fingerprint.


Finally, the easiest thing to do is simply buy a replacement barrel. Less than $100 gets you a brand-new Glock barrel. Ones for a .45 auto start at about $60.





Same thing goes for "microstamping".


Both systems also require that the person the gun is being registered to is the same as the person pulling the trigger. It depends on a chain of traceability that ends with the shooter. Obviously, this is difficult to achieve!



The system would only work under the following conditions:

The registered owner of the gun was the shooter, the gun was shot very little before being used for murder, and the gun was not modified.

And in those situations, the murder was probably a crime of passion or anger and there was a boatload of other evidence such that a ballistic match was merely a minor bonus.

 

TeddyR

(2,493 posts)
33. So Maryland and New York
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:46 AM
Nov 2015

Have a program designed to solve crimes and between the two states spent $50 million and solved ONE crime over 15 years? And people are disappointed that this program, which could be the poster child for government waste and is a demonstrable failure, was discontinued? There MAY be a government program somewhere in the US that is a bigger waste of money, but I'd be surprised. $50 million in taxpayer money that could have gone to the homeless, or child protection services, or to improve infrastructure, instead is lining the pockets of some company paid to implement a program that never worked.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
39. Union: which would you spend the "small potatoes" $5,000,000 on:
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 12:07 PM
Nov 2015

1). The junked "ballistic fingerprints" test,

Or

2). Improvement in the NICS data base and reporting process?

Straw Man

(6,625 posts)
45. There.
Thu Nov 12, 2015, 06:42 AM
Nov 2015
Maryland is stopping a good program that identifies guns used in crimes


Maryland is stopping a good program that identifies was supposed to identify guns used in crimes

I fixed it for you.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case.

Considering that it was a tech-based solution to begin with, I would say "plagued by technological problems" is a polite way of saying "was an abject failure."
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