is there a difference between a campus shooting and a hospital bombing?

[reddread]

Could someone explain the distinctions?
Im having a tough time.

...culprit accountability?

[MADem]

1. Really? You are having a "tough time" telling the difference between a targeted assault by

a mentally ill individual, and a military pilot fucking up, either due to personal error or lack of intelligence or a bad call by supporting actor(s), and hitting the wrong target?

You think that pilot is pleased with him/herself?

[reddread]

3. the shooter hit the wrong targets

[MADem]

5. I don't even know what you mean. I don't think death is something to snark about, but that's me. nt

[melman]

37. So you're trolling

Good to know.

[uppityperson]

74. What shooter do you mean?

[FuzzyRabbit]

8. It was not a mistake.

The coalition forces (US) had the coordinates of the hospital days, even weeks ago. There was more than one bomb dropped, even after the hospital called the military telling them that the hospital was being targeted. It went on for an hour according to the hospital staff who survived.

[MADem]

10. OK, what does "call the military" even mean, here?

You're saying the hospital had the phone number of the squadron dropping ordnance on them?

You're saying the US military deliberately targeted a hospital in violation of Geneva convention?

I can buy a MASSIVE fuck-up (mistake, inattention, the aviation equivalent of highway hypnosis, bad gouge, e.g.), without batting an eye--it happens. Is it right? No--but it does happen.

I can buy deliberate misdirection on the part of ground assets with an agenda.

I can't buy the US military gleefully pounding away at a hospital in violation of the rules of war.

[branford]

14. Hanlon's razor

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[MADem]

19. That's where I'm at, right now. I'm open to hearing evidence to the contrary.

Haven't seen anything on those lines, though, yet.

[reddread]

21. maybe the next Chelsea Manning will have something for you

[MADem]

41. That wouldn't be you, plainly. nt

[HereSince1628]

31. Is there a specific diagnosis of his acute mental disorder?

I haven't seen that, yet. If you can point me to the link. Thnx

[MADem]

43. Apparently, there was--according to his mother.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/us/chris-harper-mercer-umpqua-community-college-shooting.html?_r=0

After his parents divorced when he was about 16, he lived with his mother, Laurel Harper, a nurse who fiercely protected him from, among other things, the neighborhood sounds of loud children and barking dogs. Once, neighbors said, she went door to door with a petition to get the landlord to exterminate cockroaches in her apartment, saying they bothered her son.

“She said, ‘My son is dealing with some mental issues, and the roaches are really irritating him,’ ” Julia Winstead, 55, said. “She said they were going to go stay in a motel. Until that time, I didn’t know she had a son.”

He was listed as a 2009 graduate of the Switzer Learning Center in Torrance, a private school for students with learning disabilities, emotional issues and other special-education needs. Officials from the school declined to comment on Friday. Mr. Harper-Mercer joined the Army for a month in 2008 but was discharged before finishing basic training.

I would further submit that his familiarity with lithium would also be suggestive as to his issues:

Just this week, on Tuesday, using the handle lithium_love, he commented on a post titled “How many girlfriends have you had?” by saying “0. Never had anyone.” When pressed further by another user, he responded “Well, it means I’ve never been with anyone, no woman nor man (nor dog or animal or any other).” Then, on Wednesday, responding to a comment that he “must be saving himself for someone special,” he said, “Involuntarily so.” It was a day before the killings.

“He did not like his lot in life, and it seemed like nothing was going right for him,” a law enforcement official said, describing the writings found at the crime scene. “It’s clear he was in a very bad state of mind.”

[HereSince1628]

45. Yes I had seen that, it;s too nebulous to relate to a specific dx

and it doesn't suggest a specific current disorder.

Thanx.

[MADem]

46. It sounds to me as though his condition was chronic. Not a one-off, not a problem of brief duration

and I would not be at all surprised if he was medically non-compliant.

We'll eventually find out, I should imagine.

[HereSince1628]

48. The problem he had in HS may not be the problem

and there's no reason to believe that more than one disorder couldn't be involved. Comorbidity isn't rare and some disorders can actually create circumstances that make other disorders are more likely to emerge.

Without knowing specific dx it's impossible to locate known rates of violence for the disorder.

[MADem]

59. Certainly, that's always possible.

That said, I'm pretty certain that his medical issues--whatever they might be--played a major role in his conduct on that day.

[HereSince1628]

62. I'd say there's a good probability based on a single known occurrence

He killed himself. Suicide has a strong association with mental illness. About 80 percent of suicides are estimated to co-occur with mental illness.

Mass murders seem to have a significant, but not as strong association. About 60 percent of mass-shootings are associated, post hoc, with symptom that may be consistent with mental illness. But only about 38% of mass murderers are known to have had diagnosed mental illness.

What we get is mostly presumption. The public and law enforcement are simply unable to see such horrendous events as having been done by a person who is mentally well but working toward a deviant criminal objective/goal.

The presumption doesn't do anything to help understand the problem, but that's not the only problem, dead men are very hard to diagnose with mental illness.

[MADem]

63. He's probably had at least (conservatively) three psych evals.

Those might help.

At least one (and likely more) associated with his entrance to that special school, one when he entered the military (a cursory one, everyone gets this), and a more in-depth one prior to his administrative discharge (he couldn't even make it through boot camp). I would bet he was released as a RE-4 (not eligible to re-up) for psych reasons.

[HereSince1628]

64. Yes, but mental illness isn't' necessarily permanent

And without knowing the dx's we don't know what likelihoods for resolution (or recurrence) might be. Anxiety and adjustment disorders for example may resolve once the irritating stimulus is removed.

Harper's experience with the military remains a mystery to the general public, his problem could be one of many possibilities, and some of those possibilities might resolve on leaving the military. Others probably would not some of them might get very much worse.

Personally, the military thing troubles me in the same way that the University of Colorado thing troubled me with John Holmes.

Obviously, I don't know what the military's reason was for mustering Harper out. But this nation needs to make sure that when institutions identify people with problems that those people just aren't dumped back on the rest of society without treatment.

Failure itself is often devastating to people. Reactions to it can go from grief to embittered vengefullness, and thereby dangerousness. When institutions identify people to be rejected there needs to be safety nets in place to help the person process their defeat, potential humiliation and assist them to overcome it in a positive manner if possible.

If we had such mental healthcare associated with worker's compensation we might be able to keep additional people from a range of reactions from "going postal" to long spirals into despair, hopelessness, and a need to find notoriety through infamy.

[MADem]

69. Bipolar disorder pretty much is, and it's more difficult to

manage if, say, the patient is medically non-compliant and suffers schizophrenic affect.

I have a friend who, 99 percent of the time, is solid as a rock. Every few years, usually in response to an extreme stressor, this friend will become medically non-compliant, do something stupid, sometimes destructive, become an own worst enemy, and wind up in the hospital for a few days. Then it's back on the meds and after a couple of rocky weeks, all is well again.

I strongly doubt the problem with this kid was simple anxiety. I think his problems were more intractable, and I think he probably lied to his recruiter (or his recruiter taught him how to lie at the MEPS--it happens). As for the military, if the kid didn't even make it through boot camp, he was an entry level discharge--that's sort of like not making the cut in the play try-out.

This theory could be wrong, but that's my best guess. More will be known in the days ahead.

[HereSince1628]

71. All the 'dramatic' personality disorders are chronic/long lasting

that's why they get talked about as personality disorders rather than acute mental disorders.

I don't think you have a theory in the sense that I understand that word as a scientist. I think you have what I would call a supposition. And it might be correct, it might not. You suppose it to be true based on your experience and general understanding of the world. As you suggest, we will or we won't find out about that sometime down the line.

My interest re possible mental disorders that Harper had is a professional dx. I want to have a handle that allows me to looks at such d s) with respect to known risks of gun violence.

[MADem]

72. It's speculation, certainly--but I'd put a few bucks down on being close, if not

right on the money.

It'll be a while before we know more.

It always is that way.

[alarimer]

65. I think the hospital bombing was intentional.

I do not think it was an accident or an error. They had the coordinates.

[MADem]

66. I am afraid I don't agree with you. nt

[Journeyman]

2. If the latter happened here, we'd lose multiple Constitutional rights to prevent recurrence . . .

the former is simply business as usual on any given day in America, and causes nothing more than ripples in the consciousness, even if the victims are young children.

[demmiblue]

4. Ethically and morally... no.

Both appear to be premeditated murder.

Though one didn't get away with it, and the other most likely will.

[MADem]

6. Are you saying that the hospital was targeted? nt

[demmiblue]

7. Yes. n/t

[MADem]

11. I'd need to see some evidence of that. nt

[atreides1]

38. That will never happen!!!

All the "evidence" will likely point to justification of the bombing!

And it will be blamed on the Taliban...

[MADem]

47. I do not know. There's much that hasn't been revealed.

McCain was on TV this morning and was asked about it (owing to his aviation background) --even he quoted Clausewitz and tossed out the "fog of war" theory--i.e., an error, a mis-communication, a bad actor...not a deliberate event. I didn't hear any Taliban blaming.

[procon]

42. There is no news reporting that substantiates your assertion.

Please don't add to the misinformation and baseless speculation that's already gumming up this tragedy.

[spanone]

53. i read a post that Obama himself knew it was going on and told them to keep bombing....

crazies everywhere

[procon]

56. And does that sound even remotely logical anywhere other than a wingnut forum? nt

[FuzzyRabbit]

9. Yes, absolutely it was targeted on purpose.

We are no longer the good guys. And have not been for decades.

[MADem]

12. When you find proof of that, please post it. nt

[FuzzyRabbit]

15. I know how the our modern bombs work.

The days of WW2 style bombing, where the bombs may or may not hit the target are long gone. For decades now bombs are guided by GPS coordinates. They hit where the GPS coordinates tell them. That's why they are called smart bombs.

Or else the bombs are guided onto the target by the pilot.

The air force knew the GPS coordinates of the hospital. The coordinates were programmed into the bombs or given to the pilot. The bombs hit where they were told.

Some one had to have programmed the bombs to hit the hospital. They would not hit it by mistake. Someone in the US military needs to be court-martialed for this crime.

[MADem]

18. You are making a vast number of assumptions without offering any proof.

I will wait for a full accounting. Your "I know how this works" claims just aren't sufficient for me at all.

[reddread]

20. i think you are

that poster is absolutely correct. what sort of technology are you presuming?
a lit fuse and a sling shot?

[MADem]

27. The idea that the coordinates are programmed into the bomb is not always operative.

Often, the target is painted, by someone on the ground, and the bomb goes to it. Other times, it's directed to the target--either by the pilot, or someone else, and glitches can happen in that process.

Your snark, though, is noted. And unless you work at the Pentagon--and I'm pretty sure you don't--I'll just have to consider the source.

Lessons learned during the first Gulf War showed the value of precision munitions, yet they also highlighted the difficulties in employing them—specifically when visibility of the ground or target from the air was degraded.[10] The problem of poor visibility does not affect satellite-guided weapons such as Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) and Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW), which make use of the United States' GPS system for guidance. This weapon can be employed in all weather conditions, without any need for ground support. Because it is possible to jam GPS, the guidance package reverts to inertial navigation in the event of GPS signal loss. Inertial navigation is significantly less accurate; the JDAM achieves a published Circular Error Probable (CEP) of 13 m under GPS guidance, but typically only 30 m under inertial guidance (with free fall times of 100 seconds or less).[11][12]
The precision of these weapons is dependent both on the precision of the measurement system used for location determination and the precision in setting the coordinates of the target. The latter critically depends on intelligence information, not all of which is accurate. According to a CIA report, the accidental United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade during Operation Allied Force by NATO aircraft was attributed to faulty target information.[13] However, if the targeting information is accurate, satellite-guided weapons are significantly more likely to achieve a successful strike in any given weather conditions than any other type of precision-guided munition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision-guided_munition#Satellite-guided_weapons

[reddread]

28. killing journalists, bombing al jazeera, striking hospitals, its all good.

theyre the bad guys, they have it coming.
if only there were a hell.

[EX500rider]

23. If you think target error went away with GPS...

.....you'd be wrong.

Plus do you even know what kind of ordnance was used?
Another thread says it was a AC-130 gunship....in which case it was most likely 105mm artillery shells doing the damaged...not GPS guided bombs. (although some of the newer AC-130's have the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs)
I suggest we wait to see what happened before pointing fingers. According to the local Afghan governor they had been outgoing RPG fire from the compound also.

[reddread]

25. "very precisely hit"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141224340

[EX500rider]

77. "very precisely hit" How exactly is that determined?

If I miss a target and it hits next door it may look "very precisely hit" but the actual target was completely missed.

If Special Ops take fire from a compound and call in a arty strike to a gunship and they hit the wrong building is that "very precisely hit" or in fact a total miss?

Unfortunately Kunduz looks like this from the air:

Everything looks the same.

[MADem]

39. Thank you for that elucidation.

No one is going to be risen from the dead by premature accusations. What's done, is done. I want to know what happened, too. I'd like this kind of thing to not happen again.

If there was firing from the compound (and we've seen this all too often--schools, apartment buildings, hospitals, etc., used as buildings full of "human shields" in an effort to prevent response, or create poor optics if a response happens) that might have put an aviator off the idea that the edifice was a hospital.

[roody]

68. War crimes are business as usual for the USA.

Shall I start a list for you?

[MADem]

70. Why would I encourage your thread derailment?

This thread is about the tragedy at the MSF hospital, not about laundry lists and theories you're advancing without offering any evidence.

[trumad]

13. Gun nut rationalization

Fucking sickening.

[Control-Z]

16. This. (nt)

[reddread]

17. not at all

but you sure have some issues.

[SidDithers]

22. Nailed it...

Combined with more than a bit of 'Obama is always the bad guy'.

Sid

[hrmjustin]

24. Well said!

[Generic Other]

30. Your jury decision

Gun nut rationalization
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7230523

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack. He's falsely accusing the OP of being a gun nut. The OP is arguing that both incidents are mass murder. He's not trying to justify the school shooting.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Oct 4, 2015, 03:45 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Though the language is strong the alert was rationalization comparing the two incidences, I agree with this post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Growing a little tired of the week attempts to shut down discussion with nonsense like the alerted post. Do better with your rebuttals or stfu
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alert-ee isn't necessarily accusing the OP of anything. He may be answering the OP's question.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's never O.K. to give violence lovers more chances to screw with people over important situations. This isn't the place to lobby for more access to weapons of mass destruction.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

73. +1. N/t

[uponit7771]

78. +1

[ancianita]

26. Depending on the culprit, motive, location, method & number hurt, the accountability is different.

Last edited Mon Oct 5, 2015, 01:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Culprit -- age matters; whether the culprit is civilian or military matters; sanity and competency matter.

Motive -- motive must be plausibly proven, not just possible.

Location -- laws, jurisdictions, legal access and quality may vary.

Method -- important; was the weapon individually own, owned by the military, state, etc.

Number hurt -- major accountability; to different agencies; one could be accountable to "the people of___", one could be accountable to one's immediate superior

Justice and adjudication have been complicated for hundreds of years, and answers are worlds apart, depending on whether they act in the civilian world or the military/intel world.

[rug]

29. In a campus shooting, the shooters are called terrorists.

In a hospital bombing the doctors, patients and nurses are called terrorists.

(Pending a DoD investigation.)

[MADem]

40. Who is calling the doctors, nurses and patients terrorists? Its MSF, for goodness sake.

American doctors--as well as doctors from all over the world (without borders) participate in that effort.

[rug]

49. Not me. I didn't have a need for a DoD investigation before condemning it.

[MADem]

51. Well, I don't think ANYONE is happy about this--that pilot is probably suicidal. nt

[rug]

52. No, condlences were expressed, but not condemnations.

Pending a DoD investigation, just in case.

[MADem]

55. Investigations are par for the course. If you have any sort of "incident" in flight, there's an

investigation.

This is clearly a big deal, and there will be a big investigation.

[cwydro]

32. Mass murder is mass murder.

Actually even worse when sanctioned by the state in my opinion.

[FlatBaroque]

33. Precisely

Our killing our own is one set of issues, our killing oters in our name is an entirely different, more odious set of issues.

[reddread]

34. and paid for by the taxpayers and victims

[WinkyDink]

35. The hospital bombers get medals.

[procon]

36. Really? If you have to ask, your problems are deeper than you've mentioned.

Who thinks like that; That's just wrong from the get go.

[deathrind]

44. From a black and white...

POV nothing, in both situations there is usually going to be casualties.

But that is where the similarities end. One is a horrible mistake either in gps coordinates or perceived threat. The other is a malicious act of violence.

[lunatica]

50. They're both accountable but not necessarily deliberate

But then everything done or not done is accountable.

But as bad as it is to bomb a hospital there's difference between deliberately doing it or accidentally doing it.

Still the President needs to be held accountable for it happening on his watch.

And I like President Obama.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Yeah. If the campus shooter had lived and been captured he'd have been prosecuted.

The other killers won't.

[msongs]

57. the corpses are not likely interested in the fine points of the discussion nt

[cpwm17]

58. There won't be closure of any kind with the hospital mass-murder.

There was closure with the campus mass-murder - suicide, though in both cases many of the victims are equally dead.

[CanadaexPat]

60. The latter begets the former.

[Rex]

61. Sure, one goes BOOM and the other goes POW POW POW! Guess which is which.

Both murder devices are loved by gun humpers, they worship the culture of death.

[roody]

67. A similarity. They both came from our violent culture.

[Logical]

75. The biggest difference is that no one is outraged by the hospital bombing. Nt

[uppityperson]

76. I'll try. The number of people and factors involved, and the intention.

The campus shooting was by an individual targeting other people, up close. It was not in error but an intentional killing by the one dealing out the death

The hospital bombing had many parts in which a mistake may have been made, an error happen. Was the information given to the ones in charge accurate? Was it translated accurately to the pilot and bomber? Did they enter the info correctly? I doubt the pilot and bomber just decided to go kill MSF and other people in a hospital.

[Democat]

79. Is there any difference between a car accident and genocide?

This kind of thread makes DU less likely to attract moderate voters.

[Flying Squirrel]

81. With a campus shooting

You may get the opportunity to plead for your life.

[Lizzie Poppet]

82. Not to the dead, there isn't.

[demmiblue]

83. Kick