General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I submit that this meme is now quite outdated; men CAN get pregnant.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)trans men are also marginalized as much as if not more than women, so the underlying truth still holds
valerief
(53,235 posts)Yupster
(14,308 posts)If only southern white teabagger men could get pregnant, then ...
If we're going to go back to our tried and true can't miss on DU insult the men threads, let's at least narrow it down some.
Mira
(22,380 posts)And drive-thru service would be available.
DinahMoeHum
(21,812 posts)attributed to
Florynce Rae "Flo" Kennedy, black activist lawyer and feminist from the 1960s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florynce_Kennedy
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I would love to meet her. I bet she is quite the character.
DinahMoeHum
(21,812 posts)One of the last photos of her. Even in a wheelchair, she was still giving the PTB the finger.
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)and a kick to boot!
Yupster
(14,308 posts)there would be a death penalty for abortion because anything inside a man would be too valuable to ever be killed.
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)a casino-style payout.
Jackpot!
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)they'd get on to speech, religion, arms and so on in later amendments.
Sake2Me
(10 posts)What a dumb meme.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)You do realize this is a progressive site, right?
Skittles
(153,202 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 29, 2015, 10:12 PM - Edit history (1)
I mean, STRATOSPHERIC
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)olddots
(10,237 posts)SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)A majority of Americans are pro choice, but certainly not a majority of men. The reason a majority of Americans are pro choice is because a large majority of women are pro choice (54%), while only 46% of men are pro choice. http://www.gallup.com/poll/183434/americans-choose-pro-choice-first-time-seven-years.aspx
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Studies indicate that activists within the American pro-life movement are predominantly white and educated, with a majority of pro-life activism constituted by women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_pro-life_movement#Demographics
Meanwhile the difference between "large majority" and "only" is single digits which were statistically negligible just 4 years ago, but that somehow more accurately reflects reality, yes?
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)But for women, we would be majority forced birth in this country, rather than majority pro choice. Unfortunately, most of our politicians are men, hence the war against abortion clinics.
Your Wiki link talks about the demographics of abortion activists, not the demographics of people who are simply anti abortion. There are many levels of activistism. The most virulently "active" of these acivists, the ones who bomb clinics, kill doctors, harass patients and head up the anti abortion organizations, are almost 100% men. But even under the Wiki link suggestion that anti abortion "activists" are 57 to 60% female, your picture does not reflect reality, as it shows only women and suggests anti abortion activists are 100% female. That is simply not true.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)For one thing, the picture was never intended to suggest that 100% of anyone is anything and it's the silliest of strawmen to suggest otherwise. It was intended to demonstrate that there's a significant number of women who are virulently anti-abortion, which means that dreaming up fictional scenarios and pretending things would be different is even farther afield from reality than the scenario is at face value.
Pro-choice =/ anti-abortion, so your only recent trend in the gallup poll doesn't prove much either. Only a small percentage of the population think abortion should be illegal in all circumstances and an even smaller percentage are single issue voters on the subject.
What the studies from the Wiki link actually show is that the majority of people who are actually virulently anti-abortion are decidedly women. Pointing out the tiny minority of anti-abortion terrorists doesn't change that and I'm not sure why you'd think it would be relevant to even mention it.
The oldest and largest anti-abortion organization in the US is led by a woman.
Clinic harrassers "are almost 100% men"? Not sure where you pulled that one from.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)Sure there's anti abortion women who stand in protest lines, but the truly virulent anti abortionists, the violent ones, the ones who shut down clinics with their actions, I am unaware of any women who do that. Operation Rescue and Randall Terry being prime examples, and the nut job who killed Dr. Tiller, and the Olympic Park bomber. All men. Then there's all the politicians shutting down abortion clinics, the vast majority of whom are male.
I don't know why you want to blame women for all that, but it is simply not reality.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)but I'm the one being misleading. Is that really the best you can do?
Whether you choose to admit it or not, and no matter how many red herrings you throw out, the majority of virulent anti-abortionists are women which is an assertion I've supported with proof rather than just inventing statistics like "almost 100%" which are demonstrably false and not just a bit misleading.
As far as the politicians go, who do you think the majority of the people who vote are? Guess what? It's women, and has been for the last 30 years. Who do you think makes up the vast majority of the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus? Guess what, it's men. The idea that the Michelle Bachmanns and Sarah Palins trump the Alan Graysons and Mike Hondas because they happened to be born with a womb doesn't have much merit. I've heard it before and it makes no more sense now. The GOP has no problems finding women who are forced birthers, because as I've proved, there's lots of them to pick from. It's not as if they have to look very hard.
You can't figure it out because you have it exactly backwards and either can't figure that out or you're just making up strawman nonsense. I'm not blaming women for anything. I'm countering the ridiculous notion of blaming men for "all that", which is kinda the whole pointless point of the OP which you evidently subscribe and I assure you is not even in the same zip code as reality.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)It appears your misunderstanding of how misogyny works in our society goes well beyond this OP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12711
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Very telling how you'd actually go to all the trouble to dig up a completely unrelated 18 month old post which you never bothered to respond to back then. Although I can't say I'm impressed by anything you've offered up substantially to this discussion, the depths you're willing to go in the world of fallacy is more desperate than most.
As I just don't do stalkers anymore and whatever chance there was of getting any substantive discussion out of you seems to have long since gone, I'm quite done here. Feel free to have the last word as such things appear to matter to you greatly.
Cheers!
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)I was not "digging," I just spent 1 second clicking on your DU Journal to see what kind of posts you've made, to see if they could shed light on why you would make the rather out there suggestion that women are to blame for anti abortion terrorism. That is when I immediately saw this little gem you posted in the Men's Group, right there on the first screen:
When asked, the standard answer is, 'men make 23%(actually 19.5%) more than women'. Naturally they don't want to hear that when relevant sociological factors are applied, the actually gender pay gap which could possibly be attributed to discrimination is statistically negligible. They also don't want to hear that men spend 29% more time working. Neither do they want to hear that men are disparately impacted by 14 of the 15 leading causes of death. So our 'advantage' is that we are wage slaves and get to die 5 years sooner.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/~Major%20Nikon
Yes, it was pretty obvious why you blame women. You appear to think women have all the advantages.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Twice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_Shannon
The OP is all in good fun, but the abortion debate is truly not a men vs women proposition.
As the figures you cited show, nationwide men may very slightly oppose abortion more than women percentage-wise, but plenty of the nastiest pieces of legislation, and the most virulently radical anti-choice positions come from women.
At her trial in state court, Shannon testified that there was nothing immoral about trying to kill Tiller.[8] The jurors deliberated for an hour.[9] They convicted her of attempted murder.[9] She was sentenced to 11 years in prison.[8]
While incarcerated in Lansing, Kansas, Shannon signed the Army of God's statement in support of the actions of Paul Jennings Hill.[10]
(Snip)
On June 4, 1995, she pleaded guilty to setting fires at several abortion clinics in Oregon, California and Nevada. She had been indicted by federal grand juries on 30 counts in connection with fires and butyric acid attacks at nine clinics.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)Yes there are plenty of religious nutbag anti abortion women. But when it comes to the anti abortion terrorists who actually blow up clinics and kill doctors, those are almost always men.
And the vast majority of the people most reponsible for shutting down clinics, namely the politicians passing laws to shut them down the clinics, are men.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)It's no coincidence Tiller was re-targeted after Shannon's attack. Her thinking and radical propositions inspired Tiller's murderer.
Look at Carly Fiorina. Who's crazier than that? Even Huckabee isn't making up stories about "harvesting its brain." And if you check who typically leads the Republican efforts at truly hideous legislation, you will again find many women.
There is a difference between "men" and a male - centric point of view. Take away all the men in the world, and we'd still be fighting crazy, violent people on this issue.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)Tiller's killer was inspired by his religion, as was Shelly Shannon.
Nope, if women were in charge of our religious institutions and were our political leaders, there would be no war on abortion.
Yes, there are brainwashed female accomplices, but men are at the head of the war on abortion and the war on women.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)going to have religion, at least. And that the religions we have are infused with over-the-top sexist ideas.
But it is not the case that men as people are the primary problem with anti-abortion fanaticism.
What people think and do matters. If you start attacking people for who they are, you are in the wrong in all cases.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)It is just a fact that that vast majority of people leading the war on abortion and the war on women are men. If we don't recognize who is doing it, we can't stop them from doing it.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Again, the best figures you could find showed at best a negligible difference in the proportion of anti-abortion attitudes among men and women. And even if your contention were true, the problem would still be with the anti-abortion movement, not with women or men generally.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)In a democracy, majority rules. Thanks to the significantly larger percentage of women who are pro choice compared to men who are pro choice, we are a pro choice country. If only men voted, we would be an anti choice country. That is significant.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The gender gap on this issue is very small, period.
The recent increase in the pro-choice side has occurred almost equally among men and women. However, for men, this has not compensated for the larger drop in their identification as pro-choice in 2012. As a result, a slight gender gap has emerged over the last three years, with women more likely than men to be pro-choice. This contrasts with 2001 through 2011, when there was virtually no gender gap.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183434/americans-choose-pro-choice-first-time-seven-years.aspx
You're engaging in a kind of identity politics here that is both untrue and unhelpful.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)And posting cherry picked pictures to support this ridiculous portrayal.
Oh, and even more ridiculous is claiming men are not the privileged sex.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Who, to be fair, didn't argue that all anti abortion activists are women. Clearly the truth is it's pretty much evenly divided.
Nor would I argue men aren't the privileged sex. I think the joke the OP makes is absolutely right that if men had to deal directly with pregnancy, we would have long ago established the right to privacy and control of one's one body.
But the fact remains there isn't any vast gender differential in who supports women's reproductive rights. As your own materials show, it's always been about evenly split, with a very small differential toward men opposing abortion rights that emerged around 2012.
It may be counterintuitive that people of a given cultural identity would argue against their own equality, but it is nevertheless true in some cases.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)Just pointing out that if you are truly bothered by what is "untrue and unhelpful," you should be challenging the misleading, cherry picked pictures of the poster you jumped into this thread to defend.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Don't know why you're flailing at me rather than recognizing that your own data shows anti-abortion sentiment is not dominated by men. Your assumptions are biased, your conclusions are wrong, and yet you seem unwilling or unable to admit that.
Accordingly, there was nothing "cherry picking" with the other poster's photos of women anti-abortion activists, because they make up about half. Apparently that is a half you need to ignore for some reason.
You tried to draw a conclusion by referencing Dr. Tiller, who was shot twice by a woman who is one of the most violent and radical anti-abortion activists in the country, who enabled, inspired, and approved Tiller's murder. You ignore the rabid rantings of Carly Fiorina, who now appears the most radical anti-abortion loon in the GOP Presidential primary.
Nationally, radical anti-reproductive rights legislation is routinely introduced and fought for by women fully as much as by men.
Your argument that somehow this non-gender based issue is a men vs women debate is objectively false and unhelpful.
Just trying to help.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Your own posts show that's not a "lie."
Good lord why are you trying to spin away from that simple fact so furiously?
We can't win if we pretend the problem is a gender vs gender issue. It's an issue of bad thinking, and the fact is that bad thinking is pretty evenly distributed across gender lines.
Do you think it's somehow wrong to recognize that?
C'mon.
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Is it wrong to recognize that for some reason?
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Men aren't gaining anything when women's health or dignity or well-being are threatened either.
I don't know what anyone thinks is gained when women are targeted for mistreatment, or why anyone thinks they are entitled to pursue doing that.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)mountain grammy
(26,656 posts)I want to slap some sense into every one of them. Many women who are anti choice have actually had abortions, they just believe it's somehow "different" when it happens to them.
http://gawker.com/5896804/frank-brunis-too-good-to-be-true-abortion-tale
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It all boils down to making medical decisions for others against their will. It's no less chickenshit regardless of which set of plumbing they were born with.
mountain grammy
(26,656 posts)I can get that men want control over women's decisions, wrong as that is, it's been going on since the beginning. But what's in it for women? The anti choice women I know base it on religion, the ultimate mind control.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)In that respect it's the world's greatest invention. Behavior modification is all about the carrot and the stick. The carrot is the promise of eternal reward and the stick is eternal torture. Both are conveniently unverifiable.
What's in it for women? The same thing that's in it for men. Power and control. What plumbing one was born with really has little to do with it. The last generation is always trying to control the next. Organized religion is just the tool in which binds the moral authoritarians together.
mountain grammy
(26,656 posts)certainly not power and control.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)What I've noted is that fundamental types and especially "born again" folks is they were often completely uninhibited in their youth and were often substance abusers. At some point they hit rock bottom and found religion. Now they dedicate their lives to wagging their fingers at everyone else. It's as if their imaginary friend is constantly looking over their shoulder and keeping them from fucking up and they can't imagine anyone else not needing hocus pocus to keep themselves on the straight and narrow.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)shraby
(21,946 posts)hell, you could buy them at Walmart, Kmart, Costco and any other Tom DICK or Harry store you see along with vending machines that dispense 'em for free and the gov't would pay for them without any question at all!
That is the reality of it and yes, believe it!
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)That would be fun!
onecaliberal
(32,902 posts)Watch Ming the dog and pony show in Congress is no one mentions it's not about abortion. Federal money doesn't find abortion by law. It's about defunding healthcare for poor people. Those republican assholes don't have the balls to tell the truth.
RandySF
(59,307 posts)LAGC
(5,330 posts)Last thing I needed to see before going to bed tonight was Ben Carson pregz...
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)and maternity leave would be a year. PAID!
SunSeeker
(51,728 posts)But abortions are not.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)they would be shamed into just "walking it off" and never talking about it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Orrex
(63,225 posts)And, more specifically, if men had always gotten pregnant instead of women, then it seems likely that women would treat men just as badly re: reproductive rights as men now treat women.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Guys take one look at that and say "hell no!".
After my first child was born, I literally walked out of the delivery room and the very first phone call I made was to make an appointment for a vasectomy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)At least, that is how they are socialized. Every one of those men would be fine with abortion if it were than man's choice. If he could be the one who decides whether the woman gives birth or has an abortion, it would be just fine that way. What they don't like is having no say in it.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)They don't talk about men who pressure women into abortions, because they say it's inconvenient or it's expensive to raise children. And they're not the ones who go through the hell of pregnancy, labor, and delivery.
A lot of control freak men will pressure women into having an abortion, or leave them if they don't have an abortion, or decide to punish them for 18 years by demanding custody and child support from the woman (community property states are equal). Because they were too good to discuss birth control with the woman, or wear a rubber, avoiding responsibility, and blaming everything on the women. They're irresponsible.
Because having a beautiful, healthy baby is such a horrible thing. Especially when the man has a good job, good insurance and can afford it. Some people just don't understand nice.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)So damn fucking true.
& recommend!!
Gothmog
(145,627 posts)Skittles
(153,202 posts)all contraception would be free
Reter
(2,188 posts)Hardly gained any weight at all!
MisterP
(23,730 posts)I really must check out the neighboring multiverses one day ...
and "salt" isn't a flavor, how deprived was the writer's childhood?