Helping a Suicide When the End isn't Near

[smirkymonkey]

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/09/10/helping-a-suicide-when-the-end-isnt-near


NY Times Point/Counterpoint article - What do you think?

Personally, I am with Kleimann, and I think this is an important issue in this country.

[smirkymonkey]

3. The point is, should doctors help?

I think so. Anyone can commit suicide, but why not give people an option to do it painlessly, peacefully. Wouldn't that be better than having a family have to scrape someone off the sidewalk or see their brain splattered across the wall of the room?

[PowerToThePeople]

4. I agree.

I am all in favour of Doctor assisted suicide.

[smirkymonkey]

2. Kick

Is nobody interested in this issue? I happen to think it's very important.

[smirkymonkey]

6. Yes, but should the state help those who want out?

I just think it should be legal for a doctor or medical team to assist one in their own suicide. I would want that option if i was terminal and in unbearable pain.

[CountAllVotes]

11. I have CIT

CIT = Chronic Intractable Pain

As of this writing, I have NO doctor that will write an RX for pain meds without drug testing me first. I fail to comply and would rather be dead and gone than be intimidated for having to live with a progressive disease whose main symptom is PAIN.

I'll be traveling a long distance soon to see a specialist that might be willing to help me out I hope. Its costing me a load of $ to travel to said place and the organization that allegedly helps people like myself requires that you go and beg for money from three churches/charities and if they won't help you, you have to have it in writing X3 and submit it to them and some stupid ass "committee" will decide whether or not you shall receive a whopping $500.00 in assistance to travel to the medical appointment. sort of a damn world are we living in anyway?

I called up said organization with their intimidating rules and screamed at them, "Too 'effin bad I don't have cancer! If I did, you'd pay to fly me there and back and put me up at the finest hotel in town!".

I hung-up the phone after than pissed as all hell, believe me!

[smirkymonkey]

19. I am so sorry to hear of your condition and of all the hassle you are gettting

about pain relief. It's ridiculous! And they wonder why so many people turn to street drugs. I do hope you get the help you need and I am so sorry that you are having such are hard time with things!

[Orrex]

20. What if it's a single parent with two small children?

What might supersede the right to die?

[smirkymonkey]

22. I would think there would be an arrangement made beforehand for the care of the children.

I don't think these decisions are taken lightly.

[Orrex]

28. I would hope so too, but where does that leave us?

Last edited Mon Sep 14, 2015, 08:51 AM - Edit history (1)

It clearly indicates that you and I don't believe the right to die is absolute or paramount, and in fact we hold that it is subordinate to other obligations.

Who decides where those obligations lie?

[Orrex]

36. You suggest a problematic situation

I think that some sort of screening process should be in place but yes, the handicapped and ill should have the same rights.

Where does this right end? Must we stand by while a depressed but treatable 18-year-old commits suicide?

[mentalsolstice]

41. I'm a little worried about your inclusion of the handicapped.

Throwing people with disabilities (handicapped is an outdated and offensive term) with the chronically and painfully ill leads to a very slippery slope. Not all people with disabilities are ill, in pain, or even remotely miserable. Assisted suicide for non-terminal conditions has always been a conundrum for advocates for disabled people.

[CountAllVotes]

7. Frankly ...

I believe the right-to-die should be expanded to include those suffering with progressive diseases and conditions that cannot be treated allowing one to suffer constantly. In many cases these days, such persons cannot even get a doctor to RX pain medications! Who in the hell wants to live in a situation where they are suffering w/chronic pain and can get zero help or relief?

I think a quick way out would be a blessing for many persons in such a position and yes, there are many.

Just the other day a man living in a nearby apt. complex put a bullet through his head because he was in severe pain and thanks to this BULLSHIT War on Drugs crap, he was crossed off the list and could no longer receive any medical help nor care. He decided he'd be better off dead, hence the bullet through his head. Are these freaks ashamed yet as they portend to value the life of every single embryo out there but fail to value the life a a person that is suffering? Well, fuck these greedy hypocrites!!

Shame of these damn doctors that won't stand up to those promoting and pandering to this bogus war on drugs and failing to meet their hippocratic oath! Shame on chicken shit doctors that cower and fail to do their damn job and that is to treat patients that are sick and suffering.

The Right to Die should be a right whether terminally ill or NOT!!!

[polly7]

8. I agree completely. nt.

[CountAllVotes]

9. Why thank you!

I went to a Chronic Pain seminar last week and had to leave being I was in so much pain and expressed these thoughts. They basically told me to leave because it was negative.

In the meantime, the seminar went on as all of the 80 year olds sat around talking about their arthritis and their blessings -- that being all of their great grand children. I could care less about some fools kids, grand kids, whatever. It was far from the topic IMO and yes, I left and NO, I really doubt I'll bother to return.

I am far from 80 years of age and I know I won't see 80 years not that I'd care to!

Asked to leave ... was given a suicide prevention hotline # to call. I told them to fear not because I am a Catholic (ha!) and that the biggest "sin" a Catholic can commit is to kill oneself (not that I personally believe this). However, they got off my back and quit climbing my cage luckily (so what works works eh?).

What a room full of fakes looking for an afternoon out is what I thought in hindsight, a chance to gossip and brag about their old age and their few aches and pains is where it was at.

[LiberalArkie]

13. I had suffered from lower back pain for quite a while, I would just turn in my chair at work

and a muscle in my back would pull so tight that I was thrown to the floor. I could be walking across the street and it would happen. The pain was very intense. It got so bad one day that I could not straighten up, so I had a friend take me to the emergency room. They would not believe me. Finally after an hour a doctor decided to do a CAT scan and then popped me with some valium. My spine was in the shape of an S. with 3 broken disks. Anyway he gave me a prescription for valium and some hydrocodone. I have never taken valium before. But after getting back to work I decided to take one of each pill on a weekend. I was thinking that my back muscles must get tight after a while. Now a 30 count bottle of each lasts me about 4 months. I take them before I have any pain, and I have not had any back pain or spasms for over 4 years. I still take it though, don't want to get in bad shape again.

I have since gone big into trying to prevent something rather than treating after the fact.

[CountAllVotes]

15. Glad you feel better!

It can happen for some people but it is not a possibility in my case.

I've have CIT for 31 years now and god knows how sick I am of it and now, no more pain medications to be found thanks to the fact that doctors won't RX around here due to the meth heads that live en mass around here it seems. The best book I've found that describes this place is called "Methland: The Death and Life of an American Small Town" by Reding = nail on head in these parts.

Just yesterday my husband was out on a walk and a woman approached him that had broken both hips and no, the doctors would not give her pain meds for the two breaks. She was on her way back to where she was from in Mississippi and about 70+ years of age.

How disgustingly sad is this exactly???

[LiberalArkie]

18. And it is hard on the MD's. If I had not discovered that valium could prevent my spasms

I would have found it hard to make an appointment with my MD once a month just so she could sign a prescription for a pain med so I could go across town and get it filled. I could not imagine what it is like for people who are so pain ridden that it is hard to be mobile to do it every month just for 30 days of pills. Well people don't understand what it must be like. You can not just call the pharmacy and get a refill any more for pain meds. You have to make an appointment, pay for the appointment for the MD, not a PA. Get the hand signed script, then go to a pharmacy in person. Nope a friend can't do it. If you are wheel chair bound, so be it. If you are confined to a bed, just tough shit. You have to "Man Up" and get out and do it, just for pain meds.

I am 67 now, and I can see myself in a few years as my body gets in worse shape, of making a trip to a gun store. When you have to keep a pair of crutches beside the bed, because you never know when you will need them to get out of bed, it sucks getting old.

[polly7]

14. I hope you're able to get the pain relief you need and that you do live to see 80 years,

with your pain managed, it might be a riot - ! And I hope it is.

My Dad shot himself almost five years ago, we'd been searching for answers and making trip after trip for transfusions, painful procedures, specialist after specialist - he'd never been in hospital a day in his life, and I know was just sick of it even though it hadn't been long, and must have felt in his heart he was just going to linger and suffer. He'd always told us if he ever got to the point (he joked and didn't use the nicest words like I am) that his mind was impaired or he couldn't take care of himself, we were to just shoot him! There are nine of us, he said if we all took aim, one of us would surely hit him. He'd always worked so hard and was finally able to think about complete retirement, going down to play cards, coffee with the boys, watching his huge family of grandchildren grow up - so that breaks my heart, he missed what he'd looked forward to so much.

I know he did it mostly because he didn't want all of us to see him suffer and I absolutely do not fault him for it. What kills me, is to think of the emotional torment he had to have gone through to come to that decision. That hurts, so bad, and probably always will.

If we'd learned his illness was in fact terminal and his wishes were to die (I'll add, that even if it wasn't terminal but so painful and something he couldn't live with), I'd have given anything to have seen him go peacefully and without pain. We all should have that right - I'm going to go the way I want to, I don't care how I have to do it.

[CountAllVotes]

16. Amen!

I'm sorry to read about your late father but he was suffering and tired of living. I can understand this very well. With each day that passes I seem to be able to do less and less and it frightens me!

I want OUT ok and yes, I mean it -- OUT!

I don't want to live to be 80 with this sh*t disease -- no damn way in hell do I!

I'm sure your late father is in a far more comfortable place and yes, I've had two close relatives die of cancer and it was no damn picnic!

[polly7]

17. Thank you .....

and I'm so sorry for your pain.

[smirkymonkey]

10. This is exactly what I am talking about!

Nobody should have to make such a drastic choice! There should always be a humane option. Why can't we do this in this country?

[CountAllVotes]

12. Because of the War on Drugs

Which should be called the War of the Chronically Ill IMO.

I'd take this out if I could get it. The only reason I'm still here is because I fear failure of a suicide attempt that would likely land me in a psychiatric institution forever!

It isn't that easy to off yourself with drugs. A bullet through the head would do the job but I don't have the guts to do that to myself. I want a fast way out without the potential for failure.

What a sick world we live in.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Yes! That is exactly it! Why should people fear a botched suicide attempt if something else is

available? Self-suicide is too scary, lonely, and uncertain. Why can we not have medical help in this country to insure that it is painless, peaceful and final?

[smirkymonkey]

24. +1000

[Oneironaut]

21. The thing is, people who are suicidal b/c of depression would not normally want to die.

It's their depressed state that's causing them to be suicidal. That's much different from a terminal illness where there is no hope, and it's an act of euthanasia to prevent suffering. A good test should be, "Without physician-induced suicide and not including actions of the individual or outside world, is this person going to die anyways?" If it's not an act of euthanasia, helping someone commit suicide is unethical. It's even worse if that person's mind is in an altered state (like with depression).

[whatthehey]

26. So you are saying that there is no situation in which life is rationally unbearable?

So, say, a paralyzed person in chronic severe pain with severely reduced faculties who got that way in a car accident at age 20 and has a watertight advanced directive that they would wish to die in such circumstances should be tortured for six or seven decades because they were otherwise not terminal? It would be unethical to spare them that hell?

[Oneironaut]

38. That's a good question.

I was thinking more about people with depression, but what you're talking about might qualify more as euthanasia. It really depends. If they really want to be put out of their misery and prove themselves rational, then possibly. It's a tough decision. In someone's mind, they might (rationally) believe themselves to be already dead, and just want to end it once and for all.

[whatthehey]

25. I've described a failsafe system before here

1) Go before a group of medical, legal and psych. therapy experts and explain that you wish to die and why, and that you have considered any ramifications.

2) Stay in a secure facility for 72 hours with access to similar expertise plus financial and religious counselling available as needed. This should clear up any impairment and allow intervention if sought or needed.

3) Restate your desire to same group, receive your Kervorkian cocktail, no questions asked.

4) In event of incapacity either physical or mental, refer to advanced directives which should be strongly suggested and assisted with at any sign up with new doctor or hospital visit for all adults.

No silly eugenics panic. No temporary GBCW or drunken/drugged overreactions. No Schiavo circus.

[OneGrassRoot]

32. Do you know if this approach is in place anywhere in the world?

I'm bookmarking this thread. It's a necessary discussion.

I don't think I've ever seen the types of recommendations you provide here, but this sounds like it's worth exploring.

Multifaceted, wholistic crisis care centers. A significant expansion from the suicide crisis hotline.

I'm sure there are a lot of potential downsides to this (as there is to most options) and tons of liability issues, but I rather like this idea.

Do you envision it being voluntary as well as forced admission into such a facility? Having to go through "the system" would prevent a lot of people from seeking this care, I fear.

[whatthehey]

39. Unfortunately not to my knowledge. Even secular nations haven't cast off old taboos sufficiently.

[smirkymonkey]

27. Yes, but for some people with chronic, long-term depression, this might be a better option.

[Omaha Steve]

29. My FTD is terminal

When the time comes I'm not going out on FTD's terms.

OS

[KamaAina]

30. "Others find their physical and mental powers failing"

and hate the thought of being dependent on others for basic activities such as eating and keeping clean.

In other words, they're afraid of becoming disabled. And you wonder why people who already live with disability are terrified that assisted suicide might become legal.

[independentpiney]

31. I'm living with multiple disabilities and I'm not at all terrified by assisted suicide

being legalized. As a matter of fact I would welcome it, so if the time comes I can do things neatly without worrying about leaving behind something unpleasant for someone to find.

[KamaAina]

33. Well, you should be.

http://dredf.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Diane-Coleman-article-on-ABA-website.pdf

[independentpiney]

37. Fear of the slippery slope doesn't outweigh my desire to go out on my own terms

when the time comes that I feel my quality of life is no longer tolerable.

[whatthehey]

40. Me too, and I'm a passionate advocate for it.

This particular poster seems unable to grasp the idea that not all disabled people think alike.