Is there a "safe haven" for vegetarians, vegans, and healthy eating?

[Binkie The Clown]

Those topics seem to invite hostility (and locked threads) in groups under the "health" topic, which is odd given that the leading causes of death in the west are attributable to our diet. That would seem to be related to "health", yet is apparently not a welcome subject of discussion.

[stillwaiting]

1. Yep. There is in the Environment and Energy section.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1131

[LeftyMom]

2. Yes.

The Vegetarian, Vegan and Animal Rights group can be found under the environment tab in groups.

[mucifer]

3. You need to come over here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1131

I do however think that the group is more about being veg for animal rights reasons and not necessarily health reasons. But, check it out and see what you think.

[villager]

4. Yeah, when it comes to wolfing down industrially-provided food, D"U" seems fairly right-leaning,

....overall.

But that particular DU group, as noted, is a good place for such discussions...

[roody]

35. Fortunately, the tiny group of GMO pushers

is that, tiny.

[KamaAina]

5. GD.

[HuckleB]

6. If you're not willing to challenge your viewpoints, why bother with "discussion."

"Safe havens" seem to be creating whole communities of people who simply mimic one another, and do not tolerate questions. It's not healthy. Hey, you brought up health.

[WinkyDink]

14. What "challenge" do you think is sensible against a stand of not eating fauna? "Oh, just have ONE"?

Do you suppose a change in principle or philosophy is either desirable or logical?

It is not the equivalent of asking a steak-lover to eat his broccoli. NOBODY EVER has taken a moral stance against eating vegetables. A STUBBORN stance, perhaps; even an ignorant one. But principled? Yeah, no.

[MoonRiver]

15. What's to debate?

Eating unhealthy food is one's right. And people who want to discuss their healthy eating choices, have a right to do so. Poster was just asking where this can be done on DU.

[Marr]

28. Yep-- I heard an author talking about that very phenomenon recently.

Can't recall who it was... I remember she'd been writing about history and politics for several decades and is widely regarded in her field. She said that in recent years, speaking engagements have become less and less forums of different sorts of people and more and more echo chambers, filled with people who came to hear their views reaffirmed, rather than challenged.

I put it down to the internet and political radio, personally. We've made it very easy for people to isolate themselves into little bubbles in which they never have to hear even their most trivial opinions challenged.

[Codeine]

7. We have a Vegetarian, Vegan, and Animal Rights group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1131

[Binkie The Clown]

8. Thanks for all the replies. I will check it out. n/t

[Omaha Steve]

9. I do eat/consume a few vegetarian-vegan items

Instead of fish oil, I use this:


http://www.peta2.com/blog/vegan-potato-tortilla-chips/

[WinkyDink]

13. It's to laugh now, but I assure you, your innards don't think it's hilarious. And I'm a salt-snack

fan.

[Archae]

10. I have a vegan relative.

And she is constantly getting sick.

We are fucking omnivores, eating meant and veggies.

And so far, vegans are like fundy evangelists, making it sound like we are "unholy.

[Binkie The Clown]

17. Anecdotes without supporting documentation are valueless

Is she a potato chip and Coca Cola vegan?

The word "vegan" covers a very broad range of eating habits, many of which are, indeed, very unhealthy. Unless you are prepared to provide specifics both about her diet, and about the kinds of maladies she's prone to, there is no real information in what you're telling us.

[justiceischeap]

22. Yeah and when I went vegan for a while

I had an overactive thyroid that I had to take daily medication for. I now have a regularly functioning thyroid. Was it a coincidence? Probably but if you can claim being vegan makes your relative sick, I can claim being vegan cured me of hyperthyroidism. I can also honestly say that when I was vegan, I never caught a cold or had the flu (I was vegan for 5 years) but was prone to seasonal colds prior to going vegan. See how that works?

[awoke_in_2003]

23. And the lady next door

is 80+ years old, and spry enough to get out and play with her great grandchildren. She is a lifetime vegetarian. Anecdotal evidence is just that- anecdotal.

[sue4e3]

33. I would agree with the statement about anecdotal evidence

but having said that, if we were to classify humans like we do other animals we would be classified as omnivores. If we're omnivores (and we are) that strongly suggests that our bodies function better with meat and vegetables. I'm sure there is always exceptions to that rule. I know a lot of vegetarians argue we are not omnivores by nature if you ask most scientists(biologist, zoologist, life scientist,ethologist, dietitians, ect.. ) directly they will say we are . I know I have spent Quite a bit of time hunting diet answers . I don't believe meat has anything to do with being unhealthy , may be what we feed the meat or do to the environment that our food has to live in before we eat it might contribute to our health. I believe it is processed foods and sugar, Considering before the 1940s heart disease wasn't a common occurrence. I would say cancer wasn't as prevalent but that was brought on by a whole separate situation

[Silent3]

11. Your questions seems to assume the "health eating" is a clearly defined thing...

...and that anyone who challenges what you think "health eating" means doesn't merely have a different idea of what it means, but is inexplicably an enemy of "health eating".

[trotsky]

12. Absolutely.

Right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

[Glassunion]

24. I see what you did there...

Bacon!

[uppityperson]

29. Thank you for providing an example of what the OP was talking about. eom

[Xyzse]

16. I don't know. I am not opposed to those, as I tend to think whatever makes people happy is fine.

Stating that, people's choice of food is their own personal choice.

The idea is, to try not to be offensive to any one. There are cultures that have very deep importance in food and its propriety as well as how things should go.

I must state that I am an omnivore who loves food.
I enjoy vegetables, meats and everything else. I will not force any one to eat what they do not want, and if I host a dinner, I do ask the guests involved what their preferences are, and what they won't eat, so that I can at least prepare for it. Otherwise, I just do what I want.

Clinton turned towards vegan/vegetarian eating to keep himself healthy, and he's looking great. In fact, I worship in the shrine of Tony Horton, and he's that way too.

It is very hard to do, at least for me due to time constraints and the fact is, my goals are not the same as theirs.

I think that if we avoid sanctimony in regards to eating, it should be fine. People get defensive about their eating preferences.

[GreatGazoo]

18. In my experience, when one posts in GD the people most likely to respond early are those who disagre

disagree. True across many subjects and themes. Anything health related tends to bring out a predictable collection of "science" trolls.

Eating is very personal to some and simply an emotionally loaded subject to many others. Many reactions say more about the poster than the subject at hand or the OP.

Good luck.

[awoke_in_2003]

25. Wherever there is a punch bowl

there is someone waiting to put a turd in it.

[cwydro]

19. How about the cooking group?

I'm not a vegetarian, although I eat meat only rarely.

I know I'd love to get some vegetarian recipes! I'm a vegetable freak lol!

[fizzgig]

20. livetohike is a vegetarian

her menus always look fantastic. and i agree c&b would be an appropriate place for the cooking side of the discussion.

[cwydro]

21. Yeah, I don't spend as much time there as I should.

I love the cooking group folks!

Never been disappointed when I ask for help.

[Warpy]

26. You were locked in Health because your post and its video

suggested diet could be substituted for medical care. You will find people who feel that way in http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1220 Vegetarianism and recipe sharing can be found at http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1131

[Binkie The Clown]

30. That's not all. I got personal hate mail and was told I was "unethical" for advocating for good diet

Those people are real fanatics for preserving the status quo, even after that status quo has been shown to be nonsense.

I'll bet they would have been against Lister for advocating washing one's hand between performing an autopsy and doing surgery. The conventional wisdom of the time was that there was no need to clean your hands before doing surgery. And surgeons fought against that idea, just like they fight today against acknowledging the role that diet plays in the "diseases of civilization". The fact that heart disease is non-existent in cultures that eat vegan is ignored because "they already know" that diet has no effect. It's what they learned in that one single overview course they took on diet in the whole of their medical training.

This is especially critical given that doctors are the third leading cause of death in the U.S.

[Warpy]

31. OK, now you lost me.

First of all, it was Semmelweiss with the handwashing. Second, doctors are not the third cause of death. If that were the case, people would have had a much higher life expectancy in the Middle Ages when there were no doctors, only food, fasting, herbs and prayer.

So good luck with your misinformed, disinformed, and half informed quacks.

You are going to need it. Bye.

[Binkie The Clown]

32. That was the reaction of physicians when the AMA published that fact.

Don't call information "misinformation" unless you know what you're talking about.

Sources:

Is US health really the best in the world? Starfield B1. JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5.

Barbara Starfield: Passage of the Pathfinder of Primary Care. K C Stange. Ann Fam Med. 2011 Jul; 9(4): 292–296.

Managing medical mistakes: ideology, insularity and accountability among internists-in-training. T Mizrahi. Soc Sci Med. 1984;19(2):135-46.

The global burden of unsafe medical care: analytic modelling of observational studies. A K Jha, I Larizgoitia, C Audera-Lopez, N Prasopa-Plaizier, H Waters, D W Bates.

Five years after To Err Is Human: what have we learned? L L Leape, D M Berwick. JAMA. 2005 May 18;293(19):2384-90.

Effects of health care provider work hours and sleep deprivation on safety and performance. S W Lockley, L K Barger, N T Ayas, J M Rothschild, C A Czeizler, C P Landrigan: Harvard Work Hours, Health and Safety Group. Jt Comm J Qual Patient Saf. 2007 Nov;33(11 Suppl) -18.

Resident duty-hour restrictions-who are we protecting?: AOA critical issues. T Peabody, S Nestler, C Marx, V Pellegrini. J Bone Joint Surg Am. 2012 Sep 5;94(17):e131.

The Starfield revelation: medically caused death in America

At the Intersection of Health, Health Care and Policy. C Hawn. Health Affairs, 28, no.2 (2009):361-368. https://obssr.od.nih.gov/issh/2012/files/network_analysis_readings/Hawn%202009.pdf

Chronicle of an Unforetold Death. N A Holtzman. ARCH INTERN MED/ VOL 172 (NO. 15), AUG 13/27, 2012.

Error in medicine. L L Leape. JAMA. 1994 Dec 21;272(23):1851-7.

[whatthehey]

27. This is like asking if there is a safe haven for giants, tall people and accountants

One of these things is not like the others....

[randome]

34. Any 'system' of eating is doomed to fail.

Isn't 'being vegetarian' the same as labeling or substituting rules for free thinking? The only sensible thing to do in regards to diet is to, um, eat sensibly.

We already know how to live a long and healthy life and most choose not to. Pity.

We are too addicted to the easy arousal of our taste buds.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tipperary]

36. People are actually hostile to vegetarians here? I do not understand that.

I guess I have not seen those threads.

[Binkie The Clown]

37. Not here, but in the "health" group. n/t