People are dying who do not have to die

[kpete]

People are dying who do not have to die because a bunch of yahoos insist their useless, violent hobby must be protected:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2015/08/we-know-it-helps-gunsafetylaws.html

[PatrickforO]

1. Have you noticed that in every case, when people die who do not have to die, it is because of

the quest for more profits?

[daleanime]

8. +1

[spanone]

2. K&R...

[hack89]

3. Your post points out the fundamental flaw with the gun control movement

the problem of gun violence will be fixed on a state by state basis. There is no magic wand that can be waved at the federal level to change your graph. Until the gun control movement becomes a true national level able to influence legislation on the state level, there will not be much change.

For the record, my state is fifth on the list and I wish all states had the same laws as RI.

[daleanime]

10. Funny......

seems the other way around to me.

But then, we are not going to agree. So have a great day.

[hack89]

13. I have listed the gun control measures I would support many times.

The only two I reject out of hand are AWBs and registration.

Think about it - I live in a state with strong gun control laws yet am perfectly able to pursue my interest in guns. It is proof that well written gun control laws are not an imposition on gun owners.

[daleanime]

15. Exactly.....

I live in NY state, and my brother was still able to toss his new handgun into my lap last Christmas. In spite of the laws he hates he has quite the collection.

[Straw Man]

36. Hmm...

I live in NY state, and my brother was still able to toss his new handgun into my lap last Christmas. In spite of the laws he hates he has quite the collection.

Do you have a NY State handgun permit? If not, you could conceivably have been charged with illegal weapons possession. Your defense would be that that such possession was "innocent and temporary," but it would be up to the court to decide.

He tossed a handgun in your lap? I suggest you get him a gift certificate for a firearms safety class next Christmas.

[daleanime]

39. ......

Have a great day.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Good advice

[-none]

4. Hawaii has it closest to being correct.

The other states need to work together to get the gun problem under control. It only takes one state to not fall in line and any measures by the other states is rendered moot by the flow of guns from that one state, with inadequate controls, to the rest of the states.

[Glassunion]

52. Agreed.

Step 1. Enact decent gun control.
Step 2. Move your state to the middle of the largest ocean on the planet to prevent folks from driving guns into your state.

Given the NRA's influence, step 2 would be the easiest step.

[pipoman]

5. It's always surprising how many don't understand

the concept of 'correlation dies not equal causation'. There are many possible causes for statistics and pretending a single cause can be solely responsible is simpleton nonsense...for instance....lets compare the above stats to this income graph...hmmmm...another correlation almost exactly...interesting, eh?



If we apply the same statistic to this information....

[flamin lib]

16. Yeah, I know what you mean. Homicides and violent crime are going down

and gun sales are going up ergo more guns means less crime. Lott says so.

So I guess you acknowledge that the reason violent crime is falling since the 70's has nothing to do with more guns?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. More guns in fewer hands.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/03/10/households_with_guns_declines_since_1970s.html

Criminals can only use one or two guns at a time, so the fact that there are more guns doesn't mean more crime when there are fewer people with guns.

[pipoman]

58. It is debatable if there are fewer owners, it is a complete guess

It relies on people telling the truth when asked randomly if they own a gun....it's almost like polling who keeps money in the fridge and expecting accuracy.

"Criminals can only use one or two guns at a time, so the fact that there are more guns doesn't mean more crime." Period and agreed. "when there are fewer people with guns." Has no relevance.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

59. True,

I guess I was being too trusting. I thought being a 'responsible gun owner' would include being honest about possession. Maybe gun owners lie more often than I think.

On the other hand, would the rate at which gun owners lie change so dramatically over time? Are they that much more likely to lie about gun ownership now than in the 70s?

[pipoman]

70. Why would you think anything so ridiculous?

I thought being a 'responsible gun owner' would include being honest about possession.

Really weak...btw, where do you keep your money? What valuables are you hiding in your house? Go ahead, I know you will answer honestly....

Why would it change since the 70's? Think on that....check your own honesty eh?

[flamin lib]

60. Then I guess we can ignore the numbers of DGUs as well.

If gun owners won't tell the truth about even owning a gun why think they'd be honest about using it?

[pipoman]

69. True, it is probably way higher, huh? Nice catch there...

[pipoman]

56. I couldn't agree more

I don't believe crime rates are affected by the number of firearms, I think they are affected mainly by the number of criminals and/or the number of laws...sometimes the economy....and most mass murders are the result of untreated mental health issues not how many guns....

[HereSince1628]

6. Keep in mind that many gun-deaths are suicides

Over 50% of gun deaths are from suicides.

If you look at suicides by state you get a pattern similar to the one in the table.

Most of the fear of guns has nothing to do with guns and suicides, what is feared non-suicidal criminal use of guns.
which might contribute to why the rural places on the above list don't seem to see gun deaths as a social issue.

It might also explain why states low on the list above, have great concern about gun violence in urban environments where gun suicide is less of a concern than criminal gun use and deaths caused during criminal gun use.

[Hydra]

9. Pretty much nailed it

My state has lax gun laws, but we have very little violent crime except in the major cities. Ironically, lots of drugs don't seem to translate into lots of violent crime either.

I don't like to get into the gun debate, but I think it's not the guns, it's the outlook, economics and culture. Happy people don't shoot each other.

[Skittles]

30. ever think it might be the outlook, economics, culture *AND* the guns?

[ellisonz]

31. I wish to associate myself with Skittles remarks.

Taste the rainbow.

[HereSince1628]

35. Suicide is frequently linked to depression and anxiety...

Depression is indeed highly related to social, economic, -and- biological phenomena.

So yes, it's personal outlook (hopelessness in the face of something which could be economic or social.

[Skittles]

43. AND GUNS DO NOT HELP

[HereSince1628]

80. Very true, most cases of depression are not helped with guns.

Gun suicides are a serious gun related problem.

But gun suicides aren't typically considered 'violence in society'. Tens of thousands of people die from gun suicides and they don't even make the news

[Hydra]

45. Not really, because I'd rather people not turn to explosives or mass poisonings

I'm pretty underwhelmed by firearms, truth be told. There are plenty of horrid ways to kill people, you just have to have the motivation. I'd like to see if we can't do something about that.

[Skittles]

46. oh my god

LOVELY reasoning there

[Hydra]

48. You remember Timothy McVeigh?

How many people did he shoot?

You can't just take a tool away and think the behavior will as well.

[Skittles]

50. done here

pathetic

[Lizzie Poppet]

12. About 2/3, actually.

Including suicides in gun death totals muddies the waters. That's because virtually every contributing factor is different from murders.

[beevul]

38. Thats the entire point of doing so...

Including suicides in gun death totals muddies the waters. That's because virtually every contributing factor is different from murders.

That's the entire point of doing so, and everyone on both sides knows it.

[hunter]

20. So?

Other forms of suicide tend to be slower, messier, and intervention by others is more likely.

People who are continuously suicidal are eventually going to succeed, even without a handgun.

With a handgun it only takes a single moment of feeling alone and suicidal. Traveling to a bridge to jump off of takes some effort. Grabbing a gun from the back of your dresser drawer doesn't.

Some people truly are suicidal enough to act at only one or two low points of their lives. Having no gun in hand increases the odds they will survive.

The same is true of murder. Murders without a handgun tends to be slower, messier, and intervention by others is more likely.

I've some ugly experiences with both suicidal people and handguns, family and friends. Fortunately I'm not the suicidal sort myself; whenever I've felt like I've lost everything, maybe my meds have quit working or I've quit taking them, then my OCD comes roaring back into my head like a tsunami obliterating every motivation I have but for doing the mostly useless things I need to do. Can't do those if I'm dead.

Most people turn into morons when they pick up a handgun. I think that's true of police officers too. That's my more-than-half-century of life experience.

Most handgun owners reading this will be protesting, "But I'm not!"

Oh well, I can't make anyone listen.

[moondust]

23. Good points.

"Impulse killing" shouldn't be and doesn't have to be as easy as the effortless squeeze of a trigger.

Also, I think many impulse killings are committed by "good guys with guns," i.e. licensed and presumably trustworthy. People aren't always psychologically and emotionally predictable, which is why I'm not sure things like simply closing loopholes will ever be enough.

[HereSince1628]

32. SOooo... Opinions running pro-gun control run much higher in metro areas.

This graph suggests that these areas have -less- of a problem, which can be used to argue against increased control of gun ownership in urban areas.

That's -NOT- what people living in urban areas mostly want.

[Eleanors38]

65. And Japan does it how with their suicide rate?

Is it neater and easier? Are guns all over the place in Japan?

[Duckhunter935]

67. Don't bother

[oneshooter]

76. In Japan there is NO MURDER, everything is listed as a suicide.

If Daddy offs his three kids, his wife, then himself it is reported as five suicides.

[jeff47]

21. Yes, and guns are far more effective suicide devices than other options.

There's plenty of ways to kill yourself. Most of the "not gun" options require a lot more planning and effort, which helps create a window for intervention by others. Also, most other methods provide a chance to change your mind, even after you've started.

Guns are easy, fast, and final.

[hack89]

24. So what gun laws will stop suicides?

I can see temporarily taking guns away from people that appear to be a danger to themselves or others but what else?

[jeff47]

25. Any that make it harder/slower to get one.

For example, waiting periods mean you might cool off or let your plan slip to others. Or background checks that include mental health screening might disqualify you.

Also, more of a burden to get a gun makes you more likely to turn to another method, which is less likely to be final.

[hack89]

26. Background checks with mental health screening would be hard

it would be so subjective and fraught with the possibility of misuse that it would be difficult to implement fairly. Coming up with a set of clear cut criteria that all mental health professionals would agree on would be next to impossible.

[jeff47]

29. It would be pretty easy to eliminate some

"Hey look! You're being treated for being bipolar or depressed" would be pretty easy.

But yes, there is not an easy, and 100% effective line to draw. Doesn't mean that no line should be drawn.

[HereSince1628]

33. Yes, where it's been examined waiting periods have been shown to reduce impulsive gun suicides.

[Duckhunter935]

54. What about waiting periods if you already have firearms ?

[jeff47]

61. Still helpful. Anything that slows the process helps.

If you're buying a new gun for a violent purpose (suicide, murder, etc), then slowing that down is helpful.

If the guns you already own were suitable, you wouldn't be buying a new one.

[Duckhunter935]

63. How do you know

I have a pistol and want another pistol of a lower caliber as it is cheaper to keep my firearms skills up. I have to travel a long distance to pick it up from the FFL. You make me do that trip at my expense twice even though I already have a firearm of the same type? On top of that I have a CCW so I have had federation, state and local background checks. Passed the NICS, and you still waste my time and money on that bull. Nope I do not agree with you on this.

[jeff47]

64. Yes. Your time is not worth someone dying. (nt)

[Skittles]

44. my dad shot himself in the head and lived for six days

day three was my birthday

so no, not always "easy, fast and final"

[panader0]

51. So sorry to read that Skittles.

[DashOneBravo]

55. I'm sorry Skittles

[Le Taz Hot]

82. Jesus, Skittles!

[DustyJoe]

78. True That

what is feared non-suicidal criminal use of guns

Repeat offenders are not found with suicide, and usually non-criminal

where

A gun in criminal hand can and will be used over and over

[JackInGreen]

7. I really wish we could change it

Unfortunately on the peninsula and on the east side of the state we've got nothing but "gungho gungho muh 'murika n muh guns", so I'm afraid we're toast until further.

[matt819]

11. OK, but. . .

I fully support just about any control you can think of when it comes to guns. Name checks, waiting periods, no open carry, no concealed carry, as many police or government approvals you can think of.

However, look at the 18 states with gun deaths under 10 per 100K. Eight of those have pretty lax gun laws. The issue is more complex than just the gun control requirements.

[hack89]

14. Would you get the same rankings if you showed income or education levels?

bet you would.

Perhaps it is more complex then you want to believe.

[Agschmid]

17. Kick...

Way to go Mass #2 in the lowest number of deaths per 100,000!

Proud to live in this great state.

[marym625]

18. Great meme! K&R

Some more statistics I took from another post in replying to someone that has no issue with the "small number of deaths" from guns:

These are a paste from another post in which I replied to someone else that used incorrect or deliberately twisted CDC statistics:

But total deaths from firearms in 2013 is 66,805

That's

Accidental discharge non- transport 505
Intentional self inflicted. 21,175
Assault (homicide) 11,208
Undetermined intent 281
Injury by firearm that caused
Other problems that ended in death 33,636

That's 66,805. That's OK with you?

In the age groups 10 to 54, suicide is in the top 5, ages 55 to 64 it's in the top 10








E

ach and every single one of the deaths from guns was completely preventable.

Let's take a look at the cause of death in homicides with firearms by age group. We'll just look at the age groups where homicide is in the top 5 causes of death. That's ages 1 to 34.











Main page to pull this from


http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe

Those are directly from the CDC

[pipoman]

57. Speaking of memes..

You do know that not even the most outrageous gun control organizations have used the 33k made up deaths in their claims...then there's this jimdandy...

Each and every single one of the deaths from guns was completely preventable. 

Well that there is a complete crock o shit...or such a ridiculously obvious statement of fact as to be unnecessary to state. I have to assume the former...that begs the questions: Do you actually believe that in the complete absence of guns there would be no murder? That none of the suicides committed with guns would occur in the absence of guns?

[marym625]

62. Talk about a complete crock of shit.

Pretty much the most ridiculous response to these facts I have seen yet.

[pipoman]

71. What facts?

So then you do think that in the complete absence of guns those murdered with guns would not be murdered?

You believe that those who commit suicide with guns would not commit suicide?

That is what you are claiming isn't it?

Ridiculous alright...

[marym625]

73. who the hell said that?

I am claiming that children wouldn't be shot. I am claiming suicide rates would decline. I am claiming that many, I'm fact most, deaths by gun in a crime of passion would not happen.

Anyone that thinks differently, isn't thinking

[pipoman]

74. You did....

"Each and every single one of the deaths from guns was completely preventable."

Post 18

[marym625]

75. yeah, they couldn't have been shot if idiots and assholes

Didn't shoot them. Kind of simple logic. More than likely, they would not have been killed, especially when talking about crimes of passion. Certainly the accidents couldn't have happened

[pipoman]

77. Oh...yeah, I covered that possibility in my post when I said...

"or such a ridiculously obvious statement of fact as to be unnecessary to state."

It's like saying every car wreck is avoidable...which is technically true if the person had chosen not to drive that day..it's just simpleton thinking, thats all. Eliminating red car accidents by eliminating/outlawing red cars sounds brilliant too, eh?

Then the absence of guns would make the "idiots and assholes" not want to kill the people?

No, people who wish to commit suicide will attempt suicide with whatever methods are available...they don't decide to kill themselves because a gun is convenient. People don't want to kill people because they have guns...they get guns to kill people they have decided to kill.

There may be some decline in the absence of guns, but pretending even most would be avoided is complete nonsense.

How many of the actual 20k suicides and 10k homicides currently committed with guns do you think wouldn't occur without guns?

[Duval]

19. K&R Thanks!

[bunnies]

22. What would you say are the reasons states with the same gun laws are on opposite ends of this graph?

I dont usually get into these gun threads - but I notice NH (where I live) and AL have exactly the same laws yet AL has a much higher rate.

[sarisataka]

41. You won't get an answer

besides "GUNZ'

People want a simple answer to a complex issue, i.e. violence. They only see the gun-trees in the forest and don't see the trees labeled "educational level', 'income disparity', 'race relations', 'urbanization', 'career opportunity', and a host of other progressive issues that work to counter reasons behind violence.

[Kang Colby]

42. Well...

I doubt you will get an honest answer from a gun control advocate. But my belief based on my own analysis is that so called "gun deaths" are much more closely linked with poverty, education, and access to healthcare than they are linked to gun ownership rates. Sadly, poverty, education, and access to healthcare seldom offer easy public policy levers.

[randys1]

28. I bought a new video game player that happens to emit 300 times more carbon dioxide than

a Cadillac Escalade going at 65 miles an hour.

So for every minute I play the game, it is like driving 300 Escalades at 65 MPH.

But, I like my player, it gives me pleasure and you will NOT take it away from me no matter how much damage it does.

My video player never killed anyone - got it!

[beevul]

37. "Gun related deaths" and "rates".

"Gun related deaths" and "rates".

Where have I seen that before.

People are dying who do not have to die because a bunch of yahoos insist their useless, violent hobby must be protected

Its not the fault of the 99.9x percent that you guys are generally only interested in focusing on the guns rather than the less than .1 percent people that misuse them.

That's on you, not on us.

I agree that people are dying that don't have to die, but to lay it at the feet of people that support gun rights and/or the 99.9x percent of gun owners that don't misuse them, is to blame the people that aren't the problem in the first place.

It does make clear though, that no other solution is acceptable to you other than gun control, and you see it as 'their' fault for standing in the way.

In other news, water has been scientifically proven to be wet...

[Kang Colby]

40. More hogwash from the controllers...

"Gun deaths"...notice how it doesn't mention the statistic that people actually care about known as "homicide rate" or "violent crime". Including suicide to inflate the numbers is nonsense. In Japan, there are essentially no guns for civilians and they have a higher suicide rate than the U.S.

[ileus]

47. Thanks anyway but I'll keep my progressive 2A rights.

[MisterP]

49. a lot of people are simply not able to see what this chart shows

[Eleanors38]

66. I prefer our RKBA, but thanks for asking. nt

[Boudica the Lyoness]

68. I love the fact I live in a country where I can

buy a gun. I also love the fact I can legally buy a bag of weed.

I saw what a shit hole my own country has become (UK) and I'm so glad I came here 40+ years ago.
I think I will finally become an American.

[Bucky]

72. having the blue vs gray color scheme is a nice touch

I'm kinda surprised at how low Texas is on the list, even tho I know it's a mostly urban state

[NutmegYankee]

79. There are some inaccurancies in the table.

For instance, CT may not have a waiting period for handguns, but that is because you require a permit to buy one. That takes about 1-2 months including the safety course.

[GummyBearz]

81. But I thought everyone had to die

sooner or later