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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 04:03 AM Aug 2015

'Islamic State' Pretense and the Upcoming Wars in Libya

"We came. We saw. He died." And now Libya is a chaotic shithole.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/08/27/islamic-state-pretence-and-upcoming-wars-libya

Another war is in the making in Libya: the questions are ‘how’ and ‘when’? While the prospect of another military showdown is unlikely to deliver Libya from its current security upheaval and political conflict, it is likely to change the very nature of conflict in that rich, but divided, Arab country.

An important pre-requisite to war is to locate an enemy or, if needed, invent one. The so-called ‘Islamic State’ (IS), although hardly an important component in the country's divisive politics, is likely to be that antagonist.

Libya is currently split, politically, between two governments, and, geographically, among many armies, militias, tribes and mercenaries. It is a failed state par excellence, although such a designation does not do justice to the complexity of the Libyan case, together with the root causes of that failure.

Now that ‘IS’ has practically taken over the city of Sirte, once a stronghold for former Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, and the bastion of al-Qadhadhfa tribe, the scene is becoming murkier than ever before. Conventional wisdom has it that the advent of the opportunistic, bloodthirsty group is a natural event considering the security vacuum resulting from political and military disputes. But there is more to the story.

Several major events led to the current stalemate and utter chaos in Libya. One was the military intervention by NATO, which was promoted, then, as a way to support Libyans in their uprising against long-time leader, Gaddafi. NATO's intentional misreading of UN resolution 1973, resulted in ‘Operation Unified Protector’, which overthrew Gaddafi, killed thousands and entrusted the country into the hands of numerous militias that were, at the time, referred to collectively as the 'rebels'.




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'Islamic State' Pretense and the Upcoming Wars in Libya (Original Post) eridani Aug 2015 OP
And yet not so long ago . . . Right here . . . Depaysement Aug 2015 #1
If it's on the internet, it's around forever. eridani Aug 2015 #2
Probably because most of it is . . . Depaysement Aug 2015 #4
"and yet" is the story of our lives Supersedeas Aug 2015 #24
Libyans are fleeing Truprogressive85 Aug 2015 #3
Is the author arguing that NATO should have left Gaddafi in power? DetlefK Aug 2015 #5
Counting the potential and actual number of dead bodies, the former is preferable eridani Aug 2015 #6
"Women were for the most part better off under the dictators" oberliner Aug 2015 #12
They were better off in the secular democracy we overthrew, but the shah was better than-- eridani Aug 2015 #22
For those exact reasons, we could have saved Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #13
"A little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny, can be a great humanitarian pampango Aug 2015 #16
In real time, you use judgment. Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #17
"Should the US back democracy (IOW Islamism) or a secular strongman? I know who I'd choose. But pampango Aug 2015 #18
Well I draw a big distinction between Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #19
"On the whole: we should stay out of things." We agree. It is only when people take to the street pampango Aug 2015 #20
All thought-provoking questions. Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #23
The libyan intervention was stupid and has done incredible damage to the US AngryAmish Aug 2015 #8
"Knowing what we know now." Don't make me laugh. DetlefK Aug 2015 #10
Are you Dick Cheney's publicist? AngryAmish Aug 2015 #14
Are you aware of the concept of time? DetlefK Aug 2015 #15
There was no good choice - Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #11
Once the UN authorized the intervention to protect civilians, Gaddafi's fate was sealed. pampango Aug 2015 #7
Obviously, the best way to "protect civilians" is to turn their country into a chaotic shithole n/t eridani Aug 2015 #21
Yep, it's just warming up, that mess. nt bemildred Aug 2015 #9

Truprogressive85

(900 posts)
3. Libyans are fleeing
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:13 AM
Aug 2015

TIME.com ?@TIME 40m40 minutes ago
Up to 200 feared dead after another migrant boat sinks off Libyan coast http://ti.me/1hkd53Z

To matters worse up to 200 Boko Haram miltant have joined ISIS

America and her allies planted those seed of "democracy" again

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
5. Is the author arguing that NATO should have left Gaddafi in power?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:28 AM
Aug 2015

Because Gaddafi's army was literally hours and days away from massacring the rebels in Benghazi when the intervention began. His eldest son bragged on TV that the rebels will be wiped out long before the NATO is finished discussing what to do.

So, what do you prefer?
A country united in the iron fist of a murderous tyrant, or a country fragmenting along tribal and religious lines?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
6. Counting the potential and actual number of dead bodies, the former is preferable
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:36 AM
Aug 2015

Every dictator in the ME that has been deposed has resulted in the creation of a chaotic shithole dominated by the war of each against all. Women were for the most part better off under the dictators, because women and children never, ever win anything in the war of each against all, other than a place under a pile of corpses.

In post-invasion Iraq, women wound up under virtual house arrest. Under Saddam, many were university educated and had careers outside the home (except don't get noticed by either of his sociopathic sons).

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
12. "Women were for the most part better off under the dictators"
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:59 AM
Aug 2015

For example, under the Shah of Iran?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
22. They were better off in the secular democracy we overthrew, but the shah was better than--
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:07 AM
Aug 2015

--the ayatollahs. I guess you could argue that gonorrhea is better than syphilis. The point ot the OP is that western intervention in the ME has yet to make anything better for anyone.

 

Syzygy321

(583 posts)
13. For those exact reasons, we could have saved
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 08:40 AM
Aug 2015

a lot of Syrian lives and childhoods if we had helped Assad Jr. crush the Syrian uprising back in 2011 or 2012. That would have been a short-term immorality for a long-term benefit to the people of Syria and Europe and Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey. By 2012, certainly early 2013, I was wishing Assad a speedy victory.

My guess is, if the US had backed Assad with military support, most Americans would have cast that as a shocking barbarity. Toppling Iraq's dictator was wrong, but backing Syria's dictator was also wrong. Go figure.

A little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny, can be a great humanitarian intervention. If that's your point, I agree.

But I'm not comfortable with the West taking the route: helping dictators dictate, because the savage native types (sarcasm) deserve no better and can't behave themselves.

It's icky.

And, Rwanda.

And, "never again."


pampango

(24,692 posts)
16. "A little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny, can be a great humanitarian
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 10:36 AM
Aug 2015

intervention. If that's your point, I agree.

But I'm not comfortable with the West taking the route: helping dictators dictate, because the savage native types (sarcasm) deserve no better and can't behave themselves."

Interesting. But how do you decide in real time which "savage native types (sarcasm noted)" need a "little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny" as a "humanitarian intervention" and which of them don't need anyone "helping dictators dictate" by supporting "a little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny ..."?

 

Syzygy321

(583 posts)
17. In real time, you use judgment.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 11:02 AM
Aug 2015

Libya: was it obvious in advance that the fall of gadaffi would lead, not to a Tunisia or Jordan or Egypt but to a Somalia? Was it obvious ENOUGH that NATO should have sat on its hands and let the locally-grown rebellion of freedom-seeking people be wiped out?

I don't know. I don't know enough about Libya to answer that.

Syria: looked hopeful for about five minutes at the very beginning. But I started rooting for Assad the minute Nusra came on the scene. Sad but true. I think it's nuts we've been supporting the rebels - I suppose it's because our Sunni gulf friends want us to. Maybe that's why we're doing such a half-assed job of it: everyone agrees with me that Assad must stay, but they have to go through the motions to please KSA!

Egypt: hell yes, al-Sisi beats the Brotherhood. Morsi and co weren't quite terrible at the time they were kicked out, but they were sliding from bad to worse: in terms of attacks on Copts and women's rights and religious liberties, a weird-ass Constituion, and the forced retirement of many judges. The US did good to back the dictator.

Iran: the Shah was better for the people than the idiot mullahs. Or so I hear from Iranian expats.

Iraq: we should have backed the dictator. That's obvious in retrospect. But I remember Iraqis throwing flowers at American tanks for the first two minutes of the invasion. They were happy to be "saved", until it went bad one minute later.

The big question: if the Sauds fall next... or if Lebanon goes back to war... Should the US back so-called democracy and self-determination (IOW bickering Islamist groups, all with heavy weaponry and God on their side) or set up a secular strongman?

I know which I'd choose - for humanitarian reasons.

But it's not very liberal of me

pampango

(24,692 posts)
18. "Should the US back democracy (IOW Islamism) or a secular strongman? I know who I'd choose. But
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 12:22 PM
Aug 2015

it's not very liberal of me."

I hear you. Since Gaddafi had ruled for so long, I agree with you, it was hard to know what to expect there - unless one just assumes that anything but a dictator in the Middle East is a recipe for disaster because the "savage native types (sarcasm) deserve no better and can't behave themselves".

In Syria, Juan Cole said years ago that most of the Sunni majority there were largely apolitical and secular. The problem was that after decades of repression of the Sunni majority by Assad and his rather, they were unlikely to vote for him in an election so that was not an option for Mr. Assad. I don't agree that, when things "look hopeful" then bad guys show up that we quickly go back to supporting the dictator.

Egypt: hell yes, al-Sisi beats the Brotherhood ...

Iran: the Shah was better ...

Iraq: we should have backed the dictator ...

I see a lot of "war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny" as "a great humanitarian intervention" and not much discomfort with "helping dictators dictate, because the savage native types (sarcasm) deserve no better and can't behave themselves."

Is this a Middle East/Muslim thing? Or does it apply to more countries that experience popular protest against a dictator? Or am I misreading your ideas?
 

Syzygy321

(583 posts)
19. Well I draw a big distinction between
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 12:41 PM
Aug 2015

watching stuff happen (no intervention), making stuff happen, and fiddling a little behind the scenes.

Iraq: I meant we should not have gone in there. Backing the dictator = leave well enough alone.

Egypt: I think we did right by changing horses from Morsi to Sisi and then staying out of it. I would not have backed a US military force storming in to prop up Morsi, just because he was the democratically elected choice, under some belief that we should uphold democracy no matter the flavor.

Iran: I don't know the history at all.

Libya was a case where a *little* protection was given in the hope, I think, that the locals would win their freedom, a stable government would follow, and the west would have a new friend. So: small risk for a possible big gain. It didn't work - but just because your gamble fails, does that mean it was a bad gamble? It's all about the odds and the risk-to-benefit ratio.

Outside the ME I dont know enough about anything to have opinions. So I won't say one way or the other.

Inside the ME I have left other salient points out of the equation. Like, we cant ignore the fact that every intervention (no matter if well intentioned) is going to kill some civilians and make some enemies and give credence to the ever-useful cry of Islamists: that the west is conducting on war on the religion! and that all good men of God must step up and fight for Mullah Whomever! Etc.

On the whole: we should stay out of things. Or if we meddle, do it quietly and in the dark.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
20. "On the whole: we should stay out of things." We agree. It is only when people take to the street
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 01:47 PM
Aug 2015

against a strongman/dictator that the question arises "With whom do we side?"

It is tough for liberals to espouse the policy that "a little war and murder on the front end, in the service of tyranny, can be a great humanitarian intervention". Short of military action is there anything we should do in those situations? Provide verbal support to the protesters, warn a dictator about diplomatic or economic sanctions or just keep quiet and see what happens to the people in the street?

Will there be times in the future when, as in 2011 when we should have "helped Assad Jr. crush the Syrian protests", that we should actually assist dictators in crushing protests?

OTOH, if we, as liberals, choose to ignore peaceful protests in other countries does that not leave the impression that we believe that "the savage native types (sarcasm) deserve no better and can't behave themselves"?

How do liberals show that we know that 'native types (sarcasm)" deserve "better" even if we know that direct action may not helpful to them?

I think history shows that repressive governments forcing 'progressive values' on people is counterproductive in the long run. The USSR forced atheism on its people for 70+ years. People who resented repressive rule began to associate religion with resistance to repression. Now Russians are more religious than Europeans who lived under open governments for those years.

The Shah forced secularism on Iran. Those who resented repression came to associate secularism with political repression and religion with opposition to repression. Same with Mubarak and Assad.

Dictators can force any values they want on an unwilling population. That does not mean that people learn the real value of those principles. They actually come to resent them and it sets back the genuine adoption of those principles by having them espoused by brutal dictators.

 

Syzygy321

(583 posts)
23. All thought-provoking questions.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 09:12 AM
Aug 2015

In truth, even had there been a crystal-ball guarantee that military intervention on Assad's side in 2013 would have stabilized Syria and saved lots of people, I just could not have stomached it.

I like your point about the Russian Orthodox church. I have been surprised that Turkey's heartland has nursed their Islamist leanings in secret for all these decades... Thanks to them, Turkey is afflicted with idiot Erdogan.

At the end of the day, I am mostly just glad to not be a legislator or US president. Tough job. And crystal balls are rare.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
8. The libyan intervention was stupid and has done incredible damage to the US
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:34 AM
Aug 2015

Only the stupid and evil support it, knowing what we know now.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
10. "Knowing what we know now." Don't make me laugh.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 07:43 AM
Aug 2015

The decision was made on the best available information. And once the decision is made and everything is said and done, there is no point in arguing about the decision. Argue about future decisions instead.

Next time there is an uprising against a murderous tyrant, and the tyrant's army is about to slaughter the rebels, you should argue for letting the tyrant stay in power and leaving the rebels to die.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
15. Are you aware of the concept of time?
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 09:51 AM
Aug 2015

The past. It's gone. Discussing the past won't change the past.

The future. It's upcoming. Discussing the future in the light of the past can change the future.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
7. Once the UN authorized the intervention to protect civilians, Gaddafi's fate was sealed.
Fri Aug 28, 2015, 06:38 AM
Aug 2015

It was not NATO's decision unilaterally. If the 'no-fly-zone' had been implemented more conservatively his demise would have taken longer but it would have happened anyway. Dictator's use their military to stay in power. Once the military cannot be used for that purpose, they fall from power.

I'm sure many conservative in Europe would love to have a Gaddafi-like dictator restored to Libya. The oil would flow more freely (Gaddafi sold his oil mostly to Europe). The flow of refugees/migrants through Libya would be stopped as it was under Gaddafi (which the EU paid him to do).

All in all, life for Europeans would be much better with Gaddafi II in power in Libya. And Libyans might not rise up this time against a Gaddafi II dictator because they have seen the flip side of the 'freedom vs security' trade-off.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
21. Obviously, the best way to "protect civilians" is to turn their country into a chaotic shithole n/t
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 02:02 AM
Aug 2015
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