Hawaii Supreme Court Grills State on Approval of Thirty Meter Telescope

[ellisonz]

Mauna Kea supporters gather outside Aliiolani Hale before oral arguments Thursday. Corey Lum/CivilBeat

The justices questioned whether the Board of Land and Natural Resources violated due process by approving a permit for the $1.4 billion observatory before conducting a contested case hearing.
AUGUST 27, 2015
By ANITA HOFSCHNEIDER

Hawaii Supreme Court justices expressed skepticism about the state Land Board’s process of approving construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope on Mauna Kea during oral arguments in a case challenging the state’s endorsement of the $1.4 billion project.

The justices grilled state attorneys Thursday about whether the Board of Land and Natural Resources was wrong to approve a permit for the project in 2011 prior to holding a contested case hearing.

State attorneys argued that the 2011 permit was preliminary and that final approval was given after the contested case hearing in 2013, while telescope opponents contended their right to due process was violated.

“I was a trial judge for a long time, I don’t recall ever making a decision where I decided the case before the trial,” Justice Richard Pollack told a University of Hawaii attorney at one point.

http://www.civilbeat.com/2015/08/hawaii-supreme-court-grills-state-on-approval-of-thirty-meter-telescope/

The people's voice is being heard. Sorry telescope enthusiasts, your science doesn't justify this monstrosity.

[SidDithers]

1. Superstitious rubes...

Religion has been an impediment to human knowledge for hundreds of years. And now, that search for knowledge is being held up by people who believe the telescope would:

cause a substantially new visual obstruction (on the mountain) and cause a visual and spiritual interference ... when directing chants and prayers toward the mountain during cultural practices, protocols and ceremony gatherings.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/science/article/Q-A-The-legal-battle-over-a-giant-telescope-atop-6467318.php

If Galileo were here, he'd be saying "Not this shit again".

Sid

[Hekate]

5. Sorry, Sid, you are wrong on this one. Would you support the same thing on Navaho sacred land?

If you look at native cultures through the lens of Western Christianity (for even anti-Christianity is in reference to that worldview) you can get a very distorted picture of human values. There are other ways of living.

The Western worldview has been anti-Earth for two thousand years. This has caused untold harm -- among other things, denying the validity of the experience of the female body, and largely responsible for wholesale destruction of the planet. You may have noticed that "progress" ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Earth-centered religions have never lost connection to the Earth -- in this instance, I speak of the religions of indigenous peoples everywhere. They don't build massive cathedrals and say: That is holy space, while everything outside is unholy and for us to stripmine and otherwise destroy as we see fit. If a mountain or a spring seems to them to have sacred properties, they treat it with utmost respect.

The Navaho at least have their own nation, with land under their own control, with legal treaties signed in Washington. Let me tell you, the Hawaiian people had their nation stolen outright by the US, their lawful (and internationally recognized) ruler deposed and imprisoned, with no treaties to protect their interests. Ultimately they were absorbed by the US as the 50th State (I was there; it was very exciting), which has its pluses and minuses. But the Hawaiian people are still there and they have been retrieving and asserting their cultural identity for some decades now.

I say it's time for "progress" to take a break, and for the proponents of Western haole culture to take a step back and listen to other points of view.

[longship]

6. Other points of view?

Who can say that volcano gods don't want people to study astronomy?
That's right. Nobody can say that with any credibility.

Regardless, it is all just made up shit.

Build the TMT. These rubes don't deserve a hearing on this. They have no case. The complaint is based on blinking ignorance.

[Oneironaut]

9. Progress should never take a break.

It's superstitions and invisible men in the sky that need to be given a rest - especially when they blatantly attack scientific progress.

What's the difference between these protesters and a right wing fanatic who wants to ban all climate change research because climat change is a "Liberal agenda" and "gawd would never let it happen?" Both don't have a legitimate claim - just superstitious nonsense.

[hifiguy]

19. Agreed 1000%

Idiocy.

[MohRokTah]

11. This is ridiculous, nobody goes to the mountain to pray.

It's as bad as the Terry Shaivo bullshit.

[edbermac]

12. They couldn't build the telescope on Navajo sacred land anyway.

The casinos take up too much space.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

28. You forgot the cheap cigarettes and gasoline. NT

[Adrahil]

15. "Your" science?

That's sounds like something a creationist would say. Your just subtituting one kind of religious nuttiness for another.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

27. "The Western worldview has been anti-Earth for two thousand years."

Even at DU that should win some kind of prize.

[longship]

8. Little lives at that altitude.

Least of all astronomers, who do their work thousands of feet below, or even in California. The few acclimated to the summit maintain the telescopes there. And there are oxygen bottles available for them when needed, which is often enough that they are available.

Are these idiots really credibly claiming that this is their worship center?

[FLPanhandle]

13. +1

[NuclearDem]

18. This is getting ridiculous.

If this was a missile silo, uranium mine, or anything else, I might be inclined to side with the protestors, but it's a telescope.

[roscoeroscoe]

26. I'm with you

There was a nice pro n con discussion in the Honolulu advertiser a while back. The pro writer was a local who was an astronomy student at UH. I thought she wrote a great piece.

Some people are so stuck.

The Mauna Kea observatory is where the key component of the cell phone camera was developed.

[ellisonz]

29. It's about where it is, not what it is. n/t

[CBGLuthier]

2. Are telescope "enthusiasts" not people also?

Or are only superstitious believers in myths the only people who count?

[cpwm17]

3. It would be a crime not to build the telescope.

Mauna Kea is the best location in the northern hemisphere for telescopes. There are already telescopes at that location and the new Thirty Meter Telescope would be a critical addition. The telescope will hurt no one.

[longship]

7. Not this shit again!

Arrest the protesters and build the TMT.

[MohRokTah]

10. Biggest waste of taxpayer resources since the Terry Shaivo nonsense. eom

[Adrahil]

14. This is ridiculous.....

That's a big ass mountain. Plenty of room for the TMT and the "believers," most of who, I bet have never been to where ye TMT will go.

Once again, science gets fucked by religious nuts.... It's just a different set of religious nuts this time.

[Lyric]

16. I don't believe in the concept of "sacred land".

If our government owns, or has eminent domain over, a piece of land that is uniquely suited for an important public use that will benefit EVERYONE in the nation, then the "sacred land" people will just have to get over it. Sorry, but religion and superstition should never trump science.

The land is still there. It's not exactly a small space. Go chant and dance and bang drums or whatever on the part that *doesn't* have a globally important telescope. Or ten. Or fifty, if that's what science needs. We need to study the stars and search for potentially-threatening asteroids a lot more than the volcano goddess needs chanting and dancing.

Find me a big mountain that ISN'T considered "sacred" by some religion or another. Sorry, but our big mountains are needed for stuff that the gods will just have to get over.

[BlueJazz]

17. What the Hell?? This is the site the people don't want to "Destroy" Ah..I think there's a few scopes

...up there already?
.
.

[ellisonz]

22. Yes, it's bad management plan.

The University of Hawaii has been asked by Governor Ige to remove 4 of the 12 existing telescopes before TMT proceeds.

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/29159559/live-stream-gov-ige-to-announce-major-changes-to-stewardship-of-mauna-kea

[LeftyMom]

20. If your definition of the sacred excludes work to understand the universe,

then you really need to go have a sit down and think about your limited perspective.

[ellisonz]

23. How about we take care of this planet first?

Mauna Kea has unique biodiversity that has yet to fully be studied. Let's not get ahead of ourselves destroying beautiful things for answers we don't really need.

[Octafish]

21. Glad to read the Hawai'i Supreme Court respects human rights.

BTW: No one wants to see that 30-meter scope in action more than me.

[petronius]

24. Generally speaking I support building telescopes (etc), I support respecting

cultural traditions and preserving cultural resources as much as possible, I support protection for natural environments, and I support requiring government agencies to be scrupulous in following the law.

It seems that this current decision is more about that last point, and if responsible agencies may have failed to follow due process in considering objections (regardless of how I might feel about those objections) then the Court is right to take up the case...

[ellisonz]

25. They didn't follow the law because they knew it wasn't in the public interest.

The Hawaii State Constitution is very clear about the high priority of cultural and natural resources to the people of Hawaii.

I would consult Article's XI on environment and Article XII on cultural resources. These are former crown lands which because state lands for the express purpose of conservation and cultural practice. Building telescopes to such an extent that these rights are diminished and obstructed is not the intent of the laws of the State of Hawaii.

http://lrbhawaii.org/con/