Black women ‘humiliated’ after getting kicked off Napa Valley Wine Train For Laughing TOO Loud!

[kpete]

?1440388664

What started as a joyous ride through wine county Saturday afternoon turned into a “humiliating” experience for 11 African American women, who said they were booted off the Napa Valley Wine Train for laughing and talking too loud.

Accounts and pictures of the episode have been spreading across social media, spawning the hashtag #LaughingWhileBlack while the women involved have questioned whether they would have been treated differently if they were not African American.

“It was humiliating. I’m really offended to be quite honest,” said 47-year-old Lisa Johnson, who was among Saturday’s group. “I felt like it was a racist attack on us. I feel like we were being singled out.”

The women have since been given a full refund by the train company, but continue to seek a public apology.

?1440388810
https://www.facebook.com/lisa.r.johnson/posts/10153115040318589
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Black-women-humiliated-after-getting-kicked-6460912.php
https://twitter.com/bassem_masri/status/635654935825158144/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

great comments here:
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_28687523/winetrain-removes-women-laughingwhileblack-social-media-reaction

[TexasBushwhacker]

1. Why can't they be quiet drunks like the white people?

[gollygee]

2. This costs upward of $125 a seat

and yet these women, who could afford an amusement that expensive, were still singled out for being black. Having money didn't appear to help them.

Although now we'll get a bunch of people saying that it makes sense to get kicked off a wine train for having fun and laughing loudly, and it must not have had anything to do with race.

[joshcryer]

3. This is the sort of thing BLM is talking about.

But it's so easily dismissed. It sucks.

[Number23]

48. Yep! But you gotta love the crowd that is DETERMINED to not see this

They are sticking to their guns. The fact that they're wrong as two left shoes means absolutely nothing.

[leftofcool]

4. But you don't understand

If only Black people had more money (economic justice) all racism would just go away. (sarcasm) I keep reading this on DU so it must be true.

[nc4bo]

5. Boom! nt.

[Starry Messenger]

6. Boom x 2

Especially after I read some of the racist comments on the SFGate FB thread on this story. People were killing themselves to believe the version of the story the NVWT put out and then retracted.

[kpete]

9. FB has more info than news sources:

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_28687523/winetrain-removes-women-laughingwhileblack-social-media-reaction

[Starry Messenger]

21. Lisa gave an interview on the radio, I heard it on my way to work.

This was a totally shit thing to do on the part of the train. The Maitre D told the women to quiet down, and said no one had complained but that she was looking at people's faces and thought they looked unhappy. She told them to be quiet before they'd even left the depot OR had even a glass of wine.

There were only like three other people in the car with them, and all had been friendly and talking to the group about their book and the book club.

Lisa said they checked on YouTube for videos of other groups on the wine train, and there were plenty from groups of white passengers having fun and not acting like they were in the library.

It's a WINE TRAIN. omg, I hope these ladies get free rides for life, or sue.

[uponit7771]

8. +1

[Baitball Blogger]

12. You don't think money makes a difference?

They always have the option to take legal action against the company. Don't underestimate how much that kind of negative publicity would help to accentuate their pov.

[gollygee]

14. It didn't keep them on the train

And them having huge legal bills to secure their rights doesn't convince me that they're treated equally. Yes, it's easier to be a person of color and have money than to be a person of color without money, obviously, but people of color face discrimination regardless.

[Baitball Blogger]

16. Yes, we do face discrimination.

And as a Latina I am very aware that the darker the skin, the worst it gets, which is to say that Black Americans are taking the brunt of discriminatory practices in this country.

But I also know that this is a problem that won't go away UNTIL people realize that acts of discrimination will dig deep into their pockets. The sad fact is that there is no one organization or one movement that can be everywhere, policing every racist action. It would be far more effective if each one of us could pursue our own legal actions. And, sad to say, that takes money.

[Stellar]

59. Terms on the wine train...

II. We Reserve the Right to Relocate Guests Making Disturbances
For the comfort and safety of all our guests, we reserve the right to relocate or remove anyone that, in our sole opinion, is creating a disturbance within any of the Napa Valley Wine Train’s offerings.

http://winetrain.com/terms/

In other words, there will be no laughing on the wine train by darker-skinned Americans, period!

[frylock]

20. You're only reading that on DU in shit posts like the one you just put up.

[Orrex]

28. Wow.

[joshcryer]

49. Holy shit.

[jeff47]

11. Do you think they'd have received a refund if they were not that well off?

Part of the reason this is blowing up on the train company is the resources of the people they threw off. They can, for example, afford lawyers.

That isn't to say economic reform alone can fix structural racism. Economic reform is one tool in the box of many tools that we will need to root out structural racism.

[Baitball Blogger]

13. +1

When I think of how much social injustice we could remedy with strategic legal action in court, it just boggles the mind.

The truth is that there is a chasm between what we assume is our birthright, and what will actually be enforced. Sometimes I feel like our American rights have been privatized.

[gollygee]

15. They still got kicked off the train

No one anywhere on DU says that economic justice isn't important, just that there are racial justice issues that go beyond economic justice. That working on economic justice alone isn't enough.

[jeff47]

17. You mean exactly what I said in the second paragraph? (nt)

[Baitball Blogger]

18. Totally agree that racial justice combined with economic justice will

give us the best end result.

The BLM is imperative to keeping minority issues on the front burner. And economic justice will give us the best options to meet our goals.

[joshcryer]

50. This is blowing up solely because it went viral and it was filmed.

25 years ago this would've been maybe a local newspaper article, they would've been lucky if they got a national blurb on page C6.

This is the information age where documenting crap like this is super easy and even expected (more reason for justice to exist).

Having the ability to hire lawyers has nothing at all to do with it.

And "getting a refund" doesn't absolve the company from its racist actions, and it doesn't magically help these women who were kicked off of a train, having to experience a traumatizing and embarrassing ejection because they didn't "fit in."

I hope they sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress (as well as negligent infliction of emotional distress). And I think if they do they have a good case. This is completely uncalled for. They deserve more than a mere "refund."

[jeff47]

62. They got a refund instead of a "fuck you".

That comes from being able to bring a credible threat against the company. And someone working 3 low-wage, part-time jobs can't bring a credible threat.

As I said above, economic reform alone can't fix everything. But it can be a useful tool. Like being able to afford to sue for emotional distress.

[joshcryer]

68. I think you put too much emphasis on their wealth.

Most of the ladies were elderly and retired. They are not necessarily rich. It makes for good sound bytes though.

They are going to get more than a refund.

[jeff47]

70. Never said they were rich. I said they weren't poor.

You don't have to be rich to be able to sue. It's just really, really, really hard to do if you're poor.

Also, you have time to do things like talk about the incident in social media so it goes viral when you're not working your ass off at multiple low-paying jobs.

They are going to get more than a refund.

At the time, that's all they got. Now the CEO's offered an apology and a free trip for 50 people.

[Liberal_in_LA]

32. one was on talk radio this morning.. said the vibe she got from the head maitre d was

"You aren't accustomed to fine dining" that sort of attitude

[Blue_Tires]

7. kick

[KittyWampus]

10. I sincerely hope they retain a lawyer and sue. Just getting their money back

doesn't compensate for the lost time and humiliation.

Why didn't they throw the woman who complained off?

[yardwork]

57. Did anybody complain?

[KamaAina]

19. Xposted to California group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1040

[One_Life_To_Give]

22. Is there a Cultural Decibel level like there is a Cultural Conversation Distance?

Too bad we don't know what the actual decibel level of the conversation/laughter was nor do we know what is usual and customary upon the train. However in the hypothetical case what is an acceptable decibel limit? Who gets to decide?
Something I observed way back in college is that not every group of people is socially accustomed to the same decibel range of conversations. Is having a higher decibel level the equivalent of conversing at too close a distance?

[GummyBearz]

34. I'm married to someone with a higher decibel level than my ears like

It honestly makes me flinch sometimes, like in long car rides where I can't get a few feet away. But asking her to lower her voice is a gamble.. half the time she does it, half the time she gets mad that I asked and starts yelling louder :X

[PADemD]

37. There is a polite decibel level when dining out.

A few months ago, my son and I were eating at a restaurant where there was a table of six women who talked and laughed so loud that we were unable to hear each other speak a few tables away from the noisy group. And this restaurant does not serve alcohol. It was very rude and annoying.

I was going to shout "How was your day?" above all the noise, but I knew my son would have been embarrassed.

[AnPak]

64. +1

I would have played along with you...

Status as a patron doesn't confer the right to act a fool...

[smirkymonkey]

40. Do you mean like most Europeans find most Americans loud and obnoxious?

I do think some cultures are quieter than others, but it also has a lot to do with the amount of alcohol consumed.

Southern Europeans tend to be a little more raucous than Northern Europeans for instance.

[eridani]

53. DH and I flew to Amsterdam on a Dutch airline in 1996

My internal anomaly alert registered surprise at the number of conversations that were going on. I finally figured out that what I was paying attention to was my sense that if that many people were talking, it should have been a lot noisier. Even the panhandlers there have very soft and deferential voices, combined with a normal physical distance that seems to an American far too close. Talk about mixed messages--the distance saying "I am right in your face" and the voice saying "I'm being very deferential."

An engineer friend worked in Spain for a year, and went out to a tavern his first week there. He thought their team had just won a soccer match, or that maybe the prime minister had been assassinated. The bartender assured him that the noise level was 100% typical. A friend who went to Greece on vacation said it was two weeks before she figured out that nobody was mad at her.

So yes, there might be differing underlying assumptions about how loud public conversation should be.

[FLPanhandle]

23. If the train has a history of kicking off loud and obnoxious drunks, then it's not racism

If this is new, then I suspect it is.

[Beaverhausen]

25. The company says they kick groups off about once a month

however, I have seen online that another passenger said they were no louder than anyone else on the train.

[FLPanhandle]

31. If the company regularly kicks off loud and obnoxious groups, I doubt this is racism.

Sounds like a bunch of loud and drunk people who are were pissed they got kicked off.

[LanternWaste]

36. The sincere mind would find objective methods to research it

The sincere mind would find objective methods to research it. The biased mind would simply forward an allegation beginning with "sounds like...", and rationalize why objective methods at reaching a conclusion is too difficult/time consuming/not-really-interested.

[mythology]

38. Without access to passenger lists or accounts of previous people who were and weren't kicked off

doing that research is impossible.

But I would note, your exact contention could be made toward these women as well as those posting in support of them here who have leaped to the conclusion that the train staff was racist. There isn't actually proof either way if they were or were not being loud and obnoxious or if the train staff were being racist or it the truth is somewhere in the middle in that they were borderline, and the staff was mildly predisposed to not give a group of black women the benefit of the doubt.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

65. Agreed. As noted above, it's likely in their R&R

for that reason. There are far more, obnoxious white people in NoCal and on these trains than black.

[NV Whino]

24. One thing to remember, the train is a high-end traveling restaurant

What is not acceptable in a high-end restaurant, is not acceptable on the train.

That said, since we don't have video or audio related to the incident, none of us are qualified to make any kind of judgement on this.

And that said, I personally wish the damned, polluting, tourist train would disappear. If it were a matter of alternate transportation for the locals (as well as tourists), I would feel differently.

[HFRN]

26. is this really national news?

really?

[Polly Hennessey]

27. I agree.

This is not national news. Maybe they were just a bunch of annoying, loud people. Sounds like the adult version of rowdy kids in restaurants.

[HFRN]

30. exactly - who here can say that they've never seen a group of obnoxiously loud people in public

and, among those who have seen such a group (of any race or gender), who has ever seen the loud group politely acknowledge that they were being too loud (hint: never)

doesn't mean that this group was in the wrong - I'm just saying we're hearing ONE side of the story

[hunter]

42. What are the odds equally loud white people have never been kicked off the train?

[HFRN]

44. well, as I've never been on the train, or met the personel on it, or was there when it happened

I don't see fit to approach the situation with prejudice, as you apparently do

[Judi Lynn]

46. Truly. Some people don't seem to engage their brains when they are out and around, apparently.

Next to NO chance whatsoever.

Who on earth could deny it....

[kwassa]

45. It has the potential to be international news.

Or not.

This will depend on what the investigation reveals.

[GOLGO 13]

29. BREAKING NEWS: Rich white people don't like black people.

It just doesn't stop.

[Liberal_in_LA]

33. their yelp reviews are taking a hit

http://m.yelp.com/biz/napa-valley-wine-train-napa
http://m.yelp.com/biz/napa-valley-wine-train-napa

[Stellar]

61. +1

terms on the wine train are interesting too.

http://winetrain.com/terms/

II. We Reserve the Right to Relocate Guests Making Disturbances
For the comfort and safety of all our guests, we reserve the right to relocate or remove anyone that, in our sole opinion, is creating a disturbance within any of the Napa Valley Wine Train’s offerings.

So, laughing can be viewed as a disturbance.

[Omaha Steve]

35. Wine train has been on my bucket list for years

Maybe not after this.

OS

[realFedUp]

39. Karma will be one or more of these women is a lawyer

I'd love to know identity of woman who reported them on a train specifically for wine, food and adventure. Laughing too loud....can't believe this country has come to that. Lawsuits.
I won't travel on that train.

[hunter]

41. Affluent white Napa Valley is sort of creepy.

Reminds me of my home town.

[David__77]

43. I think that the Wine Train Terms and Conditions are relatively non-descriptive.

The Terms and Conditions (http://winetrain.com/terms/) states that "we reserve the right to relocate or remove anyone that, in our sole opinion, is creating a disturbance..." I think that it would be a good practice, in the event that a specific ambiance is considered desirable by the management, to provide more detail here.

I can understand management wanting to ensure that, on a decibel level, some threshold not be exceeded by customers, in order to maintain a relatively quiet environment, whether it be a library or a restaurant or any public accommodation. I think that information should be communicated to would-be customers where workable, in advance of an exchange of money for services.

[joshcryer]

51. It doesn't help that wine, naturally, releases inhibitions.

They should take that in to consideration rather than hiding behind some obscure clause which lets them decide at whim. This is more of a personal action than it is some objective or even reasonably subjective measure. As far as I can tell the women were ejected because it bothered whoever was in charge.

[David__77]

52. Yeah

I don't think there would be an objective criterion for this - it's not as if someone is going to put sound meters on everyone when they get on the train. It's going to be someone's personal decision about whether or not "policy" or "satisfaction of most patrons" or whatever factor is best served by some course of action. The person in charge may or may not have been personally bothered. I do think it would be helpful, if the management were really intentional about creating a "peaceful" environment, to clearly market it as such. I agree that "Terms and Conditions" occur to people as obscure clauses because most people probably don't read them, and often the language is broad-brush and aimed at mitigating liability more than being helpful.

[CBGLuthier]

54. Read the followups, they were given shit about being too loud before they had a single glass

This was racism. This train did not want a large group of black people on their train. Takes a high level of willful ignorance to claim otherwise.

[joshcryer]

55. I have, and a lot of the people were against the ejection.

That they paraded the women 6 train cars only underscores the racist undercurrents that was happening.

[libnnc]

47. The smart ass little shit in me wants to

Get a group of folks (multiracial) in top hats, canes, smoking jackets, fake mustaches and monicles and troll the train's staff. "I say, Garçon, pip-pip, cherrio! What, what!" "Silence! Verily! This is a serious dining experience, what ho!"

As fucking obnoxious and silly as possible. Post that on youtube. Make them look like the knobs they are.

[LuvNewcastle]

58. The attitude of the staff on that train

is a good example of why I've never been so much into learning about wine or spending time at wine-tasting events. I hate snobbery, and wine aficionados can be colossal snobs. I'll just get on the beer bus instead of the wine train. I'm sure I would have a hell of a lot more fun.

[redgreenandblue]

56. Holy Rohrschach test.

Everyone is seeing what they want to see already.

The truth is, no one knows exactly how loud they were being. It is very possible that they were legitimately kicked off the train. It is also very possible that they were kicked off for being black.

Everyone is dead sure which it was already.

[Captain Stern]

60. That's how we roll here.

I don't need a bunch of stinking facts or additional sources to make up my mind.

I can pretty much discern the truth about anything, just by reading one article or hearing one anecdote. Once I've decided what is true, you better agree with me 100% (no...95% isn't good enough), or you're an 'apologist', 'authoritarian', 'racist', 'conservative', 'gun grabber', 'gun humper', 'mysoginist', or something equally as bad.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

63. And this is by far the most interesting, but sadly, not surprising...

...thing about this thread. Very few are willing to reserve judgment waiting for the verifiable, relevant, and complete facts surrounding the incident. They ONLY see what they want to see and just can't wait to run with it.

[LanternWaste]

66. Hence, the company taking full responsibility and issuing an unqualified apology yesterday afternoon

"The truth is, no one knows exactly..."

Hence, the company taking full responsibility and issuing an unqualified apology yesterday afternoon... because the company is seeing what it wants to also, or just because it's seeing what it want to?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

67. So would your "apology equals culpability" logic...

...apply here as well? If not, please explain why.

Youtube description:

On February 11, 2006, Harry Whittington was accidentally shot by Vice-President Dick Cheney during a quail hunting trip in Texas. The White House did not confirm the incident until approximately 12 hours after it happened, sparking a media frenzy. Whittington made a public statement on February 17th expressing gratitude to the media for its coverage of the incident and apologizing to Dick Cheney for all that "he and his family have had to go through."

Seems to me (and this is only speculation on my part) in both cases the parties issuing apologies appear, respectively, to be choosing what they believe to be the most expedient means of putting the event(s) behind them hoping to minimize public discourse and negative PR, and hopefully avoid any costly legal battles.

Did you conclude based on Whittington's apology that he must have been responsible for getting himself shot in the face?

My take on it was more in line with comedian Lewis Black's:

[Syzygy321]

69. Thanks. You're braver than I am

because you said it first.

I have no damned idea why the group was asked to leave the train, and neither does anyone else who's so certain and righteous with the opining.

What's that word for when ya pre-judge people (train riders, train workers, yeah it applies to everyone) whom ya don't know? Pre-jud-something...