We need to address unconscious racism and intimidation here on DU

[Ken Burch]

(edited to remove anything personal about any particular poster).

This isn't the problem of any particular political candidate or any particular campaign...it's a problem with the culture on this board, which reflects the culture of this nation

Few people here are consciously racist...I'd say almost none, actually. But there has been a problem in the way DU and a lot of Sanders supporters(and I say that as a Sanders supporter)have communicated with AA posters here.

In the name of stopping what we have perceived as an unjust attack on a particular candidate, we have committed the crime of making it sound as if we are trying to silence an entire community-again, not something that was intended, most likely, but something that was clearly perceived. And it's the perception we have created that has been the problem. It sounds racist. And if it sounds racist, those to whom it sounds that way have a right to see it as racist.

Too often, the white contingent on DU(and I think I can include myself in that on bad days)have responded to the attempts to raise the issue of police violence as if they were a deliberate attack on Bernie's campaign. While some people who raised those issues probably did do so out of cynical political interest, a lot haven't. I think all of us are actually against police violence and police terror towards the AA community, but we need to communicate this much more clearly and more actively, and, much more important, we need to listen more. We may not like what we're hearing...we may feel deeply uncomfortable at times...but what we are hearing(and we have to make it clear that we GET this)is the voice of a community who see their their friends, their spouses, their children being sent to early graves with nobody in the white community, including hardly anyone in the white progressive political community, doing anything to stop it. We are also dealing with the consequences of the decision of the Democratic Party, starting in the late 1980's making a conscious decision to put looking "tough on crime" ahead of protecting the civil rights and, indeed, the physical safety, of an entire racial community. We threw African America under the squad car, under the riot truck, and into a cell where we left it to hang. Is it any wonder that the distrust of that community runs so deep? Is it any wonder that that they won't "take our word for it"?

We can be better about that DU. We can be open to hearing what we need to hear, and we can learn to wait before firing back in anger. I know I myself can be better about that. So can the posters on this site in general.

Bernie did need to make some changes, and now he has pretty much made them. His campaign will be fine and it now looks like a better relationship with the AA community will be established. There was no conscious intent on his campaign's part to exclude AA issues or to keep AA people away from his rallies, and those issues are now part of the campaign and the face of his crowds is becoming more rainbow.

Social justice, as it was always intended to be, is being addressed and will continue to be equally addressed with economic justice in Bernie's campaign. It has been intense, but in the end, it's all good. It has shown that our candidate is responsive and capable of change and growth, of improvement in communication. It has shown that dialog can be created on this and a better message sent to all.

To those who support Bernie here on DU, I make a personal appeal:

please, please, PLEASE, for the love of God, when you see critical posts from AA posters, be tactful and aware when you respond. Do not talk down to those posters...do not lecture them...do not treat them as the enemy. If their posts are angry, accept that they are entitled to their anger about the issues involved, even if it seems to you that they are singling our candidate out. Remember that, while this may be about electing a progressive president to you, to us, to these posters, it is about whether or not their freaking kids end up being killed by a cop on the street today. We get that intellectually, but we need to show that it is REAL to us, that it is vivid to us, that it matters as much to us as if it were our own kids facing that threat. I'm not sure how we do that, but we all have to try harder and to avoid defensiveness while making the effort.

We can grow from this. We can change from this. We can spread healing and forge justice from this.

But we need to do the work.

Please...dig in and be part of the solution. I'll try...can you?

[bettyellen]

1. thank you Ken.

[seveneyes]

2. Even a polar issue has more than one side

Not seeing it here.

[MADem]

3. Very well said. We should all try harder. We can do this! nt

[vaberella]

4. As AA DUer who's a Bernie supporter, I don't even understand some of the attacks. n/t

[dsc]

5. I hope people read your words

and actually take them into account. The events you are referring to were out of line.

[procon]

6. Not referring to other people as "them" might be a good start. nt

[Ken Burch]

7. I was doing that to address the people who are doing the attacking.

It wasn't about agreeing that those being attacked deserved to be treated as outsiders. How would you have suggested I word what I wrote instead of wording it that way?

[procon]

15. There's a difference between criticizing and attacking. nt

[pnwmom]

27. Right. And there have been people attacking, not just criticizing.

And there were people at the Westlake rally attacking.

[Ken Burch]

66. There were bad vibes all around at the Westlake rally.

There may have been a legitimate issue with the rally organizers(remember, this was a rally in defense of Social Security and Medicare, not a campaign rally)not doing enough outreach in places like Rainier Valley and the Central Area(the main black neighborhoods in Seattle)to get people there to connect to the event.

[Skittles]

13. "white contingent"

[HFRN]

8. 'we have committed the crime of making it sound as if we are trying to silence'

no, we have not committed any crimes

if you want to raise the level of communication, you can stop presupposing that some are committing crimes here

[HFRN]

9. 'Please...dig in and be part of the solution. I'll try...can you?'-> super patronizing nt

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Well, we certainly wouldn't want anyone to try solutions

for alleviating the toxic atmosphere on DU, now, would we? I don't find Ken's tone patronizing at all - and, I too am a white Bernie supporter who has felt a bit defensive over the past month or so.

[HFRN]

14. it came at the end of a paragraph accusing racism and 'committing crimes'

in that context, yes, it's 'super patronizing'

[Blue_In_AK]

16. I didn't mean to sound snarky,

but I think in Ken's case, his heart is in the right place. Is it possible to please all the people all the time with the words we choose? I don't think so.

[HFRN]

17. ' Is it possible to please all the people all the time with the words we choose?'

I don't see being patronizingly dressed down, as an attempt on his part to try to 'please everyone'

[Blue_In_AK]

18. We will agree to disagree.

[HFRN]

33. don't forget to send me a copy

the first time i heard 'agree to disagree' was in the moment before this video clip

[Blue_In_AK]

34. LOL.

[Ken Burch]

69. I'm dressing myself down, too.

It's not like I was saying I'm better than you.

[HFRN]

73. you're free to dress yourself down any time you like

but that doesn't give you license to share that dressing with others

(that tactic has always been my pet peeve)

[AtomicKitten]

10. I'm having a tough time squaring the

Clinton supporters being fine with Hillary's racist campaign in 2008 now having the nerve to co-opt BLM to beat the shit out of Bernie Sanders and broadbrush trash his supporters here, in each case using race to divide, again. It's too deja vu to ignore. But as always thanks for overlooking the obvious to blame those steadfastly opposed to this permutation of Clinton candidacy.

[msanthrope]

21. Mote, beam, eye. nt

[AtomicKitten]

26. back atcha

[dsc]

22. the poster this thread was written about

isn't a fan of Hillary for the exact reason you state, and was treated horridly by a whole bunch of Sanders supporters for daring to say that BLM had valid points. So what excuse do you have for that treatment? Why was that behavior justified?

[AtomicKitten]

25. I don't even know what the fuck you're

... talking about. There's that broadbrush I mentioned.

[dsc]

28. then maybe you had no business commenting on this post

if you have no idea what the poster this post is about was subjected to, then maybe, you have no business at all replying to it.

[AtomicKitten]

30. Don't even think about telling me what to do.

[Phlem]

50. +1

Yep!

[daybranch]

57. yep, but do not worry, BLM already

is against Hillary. The video of their meeting with her explains why they do not like her. I do agree with her telling them to develop a policy and strategy to get the changes they want. Bernie supporters say this too.
I really do not have any doubt Hillary can get things done, I am just concerned that she is not on the side of working people. I actually believe politicians should be loyal to their donors, Hillary to the rich and and Bernie to the rest of us seems right.

[BreakfastClub]

64. Her campaign was no more racist than Obama's was sexist. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Correct

and this is one thing that a lot of people here have conveniently forgotten

[Ken Burch]

65. I'm with you as to the Clinton supporters. But this isn't just about Clinton supporters.

There are a lot of people who aren't backing any particular candidate who are raising these issues.

[hrmjustin]

11. Clearly things were said that was hurtful and not helpful in the past month.

And people who challenged it were targeted.

[msanthrope]

19. well written and a positive step. Mark well who has a problem with this OP.nt

[dumbcat]

24. For they are to be ..

what?

[GitRDun]

20. Amen!

Like it or not we are all bound by the simple axiom, "The message received is the message".

It's not always easy to remember that.

[LittleBlue]

23. No

The line was crossed when Bernie was Swift Boated by a Palin supporting Christian extremist. Watching her illogical vitriol being defended on DU made me see there are some who don't want progress, or were merely interested in a political assassination.

Whichever one they might be, I don't care. I want nothing to do with them, regardless of whether they're white or black. I don't care what they have to say. They lost too much credibility to be taken seriously when they tweeted "bow down Bernie".

I'm not interested in listening to their disingenuous arguments. Nor their inexcusable, disgusting apologists. The only apologies here should be heartfelt and coming from the liars who tried to smear Bernie Sanders as a racist.

[AtomicKitten]

29. It is swiftboating and it started the moment

he announced his candidacy with "Not good enough, Bernie" in a now infamous thread. Then came the post "So you marched with ML King. What do you want, a cookie?". There's some messed up stuff going on here alright.

[zeemike]

37. Yep messed up stuff is right.

And we see posts almost daily that tries to keep the meme going.
And it is revealing.

[haikugal]

40. Yes, there is...

Then there's this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027064820#post104

Along with all the other "racist" naming of Bernie constituents. It didn't stick to Bernie so we got a load of crap thrown at us all over the net, and here.

[LittleBlue]

41. Exactly

Poison the moment he announced. We shouldn't kowtow to them.

[840high]

53. It started from day one and

never quit.

[Alittleliberal]

58. That's a large white crowd in VT...

While at the same time complaining he comes from a mostly white state... It's like the gears stop turning right before they could figure out the absurdity of their complaint.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Like...drum roll... 2008

and it will get far, far worst. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg. Once the open antisemitism comes, I know I am leaving.

[NuclearDem]

42. She's not a Palin supporter.

That's been debunked so many times it's not even funny.

[rpannier]

44. But she is a bully

The two of them set up their own BLM Seattle page after Nikki Stephens (age 16) had already set up a Facebook page for BLM-Seattle
They sent her an intimidating text
Told her she had to change the name of her page and claimed to be the real co-founders of BLM Seattle

[NuclearDem]

46. So fucking what?

It's absolutely incredible the lengths people will go to continue to live in their denial of any race problems in the progressive movement.

[rpannier]

47. Because she's a bully

Why do you feel the need to defend someone who is a horrible person? A person who intimidates teen-aged girls?

[NuclearDem]

48. Oh for God's sake, this is pathetic.

Off to ignore with you.

[rpannier]

49. Agreed. Defending a bully is pathetic

Sad really
Glad I won't be seeing you around

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Add me please to your ignored list

Really, defending a bully?

Look, the issues with police are real. People are dying at the hands of police. Seattle PD is under the feds... but that does not justify whatsoever bullying a 16 year old.

So please do add me to your list. I will consider it an honor.

[NuclearDem]

85. Not defending bullying. Calling out disingenuous horseshit.

I don't believe for a fucking second that there's any legitimate concern over bullying being shown here. It's simply the next line to turn to after "she's a Palin supporter" turned out to be bullshit.

Further, after the way you treated boston bean, you have absolutely zero ground to lecture others on bullying, so spare me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Actually there are

and when a 24 year old WOMAN, bullies a 16 year old teen, that is a problem.

As i said, please put me on your ignore list. I beg you.

[Phlem]

52. Fuckin A!

Agreed!

[Marr]

59. I agree with you. /nt

[HFRN]

77. 'Nor their inexcusable, disgusting apologists.' here here

your post is the set of words I was searching for

[MellowDem]

31. The Democratic Party has been terrible on race...

for a very long time. Not as bad as the Republican Party the last four or five decades perhaps, but ever since it went third way and got "tough on crime" in a rightward lurch to try and be electorally competitive as you described so well.

Many DUers (myself included) identify more as progressive than Democrats, and think of the Democratic Party as a moderately Conservative party. Clinton is seen as one of the faces of the third way movement that benefited so well from throwing minorities under the bus, and I think very rightly so. The anger at Clinton supporters who then attack Sanders on race is entirely justified and understandable IMHO. I think Clinton's record speaks for itself.

But the majority of progressives are white, by quite a lot, especially in the online community, and many don't understand how they come across to black people, or even understand the black community, precisely because our society is so segregated, and that includes the Democratic Party. Some of the anger that has been expressed by progressives towards black people who aren't even necessarily Clinton supporters has been downright tone deaf.

The Party is split along racial and ideological lines, as has been shown in polls, with the majority of black Democrats being much more conservative and religious on many issues and progressive Democrats being much wealthier, less religious and whiter on average, and there really is a breakdown in understanding and communication, not to mention a difference of priorities, due to these differences. Most people here, or anywhere, don't like to talk about these real differences, because they don't want to create division when we want a united front against the Republican Party, and they think talking about the elephant in the room weakens us. I don't think so.

These real differences can and are exploited by politicians wiling to, and, IMHO, Clinton is more than willing to (as we saw last election) and is poised to benefit from these very real differences this election. When you have people saying they won't vote for Sanders because his base are white supremacists or white Volvo driving socialists, and not on the issues, Clinton wins, and I think she will win, even though she has, indeed, thrown minorities under the bus in the past for political gain. In fact, I think she would win even if the Democratic Party wasn't so segregated and split among racial and ideological lines, because of other even bigger issues in American politics.

But at least for voters who pay lots of attention and activists, which is a tiny minority, expect to see the splits that exist in the Democratic Party play out publicly, and expect to see some people support one candidate purely in opposition to the caricature of a candidate's supporters.

I don't think there is any substantive solution to these splits until we don't have these gigantic rifts in American society, with massive inequality between different racial groups. I think all that we can do until then is to try and convince people of the reality that inequalities exist, and being comfortable talking about them. That's tougher said than done, but looking at a silver lining, I hope this election does some of that for Democrats at least.

[Ron Green]

61. Thank you

for this heartfelt and thoughtful post.

[pnwmom]

32. Thanks, Ken. K & R

[hunter]

35. I suspect the "But I'm not a racist!" crowd...

... will still find offensive the more impolite protests and anger of people who suffer the racism of our society and its institutions every day.

[seveneyes]

36. Where is the #BowDownOtherThanBernie"?

Ain't seen it. Have you?

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

38. Very well said. Thank you.

I can only speak for myself. And not regarding interactions on DU, but my feelings regarding the BLM activism at net roots and Seattle. I found myself deeply compelled to try to make sense of what made no sense to me. I had to step back and listen, and then listen some more. I'm glad these actions occurred even though they made no sense to me at the time. They have succeeded in waking up a lot of people. And now social justice and addressing structural racism is being acknowledged as a critical issue, and understandably the most critical issue for lots of African Americans. I'm 56 years old, female, and nauseated at the violence and the "system" in place that perpetuates a caste system in a country whose marketing is all about freedom and democracy. This must also be a top issue for all of us. This country is only as good as how it treats each and every one of us.

[WIProgressive88]

39. Excellent post. K&R.

[KMOD]

43. Great post, Ken.

[1StrongBlackMan]

45. Well put, Ken ...

But I suspect the message will be denied, deflected and, ultimately, ignored.

[tk2kewl]

76. maybe by some, but please remain open to those of us who are willing to listen and help

peace

[The Straight Story]

51. Yeah....no. I'm sorry, but I won't treat AA posters here in a way that makes them feel different

There are many progressives here who support the ideals of fixing the US and it's problems with how it treats minorities (from American Indians to African Americans).

If I am not as critical of ideals/posts from everyone then I am treating people differently and thinking they need to be handled in a different way.

I can be understanding and put myself in their shoes (and by 'their' I mean everyone from the poor, like me, to those with physical issues, mental ones, racial ones, etc and so on) and I can certainly support not being a jerk and brushing off concerns people have because of institutionalized discrimination (again, across a spectrum of groups).

But thinking people are just X because of one thing demeans, to me, their ability to have a full discussion on a topic.

You can be damned critical of BLM tactics by some and it doesn't mean you don't give a damn about AA and their experience. I am sure people can, if they want, differentiate between being critical of some in a movement without thinking it means you are bashing them and other things.

There is a big difference in attacking and labeling allies and trying to discuss an issue you see and labeling them things.

[Phlem]

55. +1

[HFRN]

78. exactly

the 'I can attack you, but if you defend yourself, that makes you an XYZ' should never be accepted by anyone, for the sole reason that it's actually a lack of respect for your attacker, that you don't consider them an equal (as well as being unreasonable and unfair on it's face')

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. If I may I don't either

but people in the AA group feel targeted. Fairly or not, they feel that. So I will not second guess them in how they feel They also feel they have been alert stalked. I have been alert stalked so I know it is real. They also feel they have been bullied. so have I.

Being a tad more conscious is not a bad idea. For the record, unless people tell me I am so and so... I have no idea what melanin content is staring me back from the other side of the screen. For all I know, they could be green or blue.

Yes, some folks are obvious... it is in the handle, or have told this enough that I can remember.

[Starry Messenger]

54. All excellent points.

I think that really goes for everyone here, including myself in that, at any time, and not just election-related issues. I've been here for 10 years and learned many valuable things, and I have had my share of fuck-ups too. But I try to listen and grow, and I've seen others do it here too.

Racism and paternalism in general is a problem in progressive spaces, and it has reared its head before. Things are getting very different in the electorate--the old New Deal coalition is not coming back, which is good. It had lots of problems. But we want advances that take bold steps, and we have to get everyone at the table who also needs advances.

[Jamastiene]

56. K&R

[DonCoquixote]

60. here is what gets missed

It is one thing to offer genuine criticism of BLM, it is another to realize that when Black, or for that matter, any minority gets criticized, it is often used as a way to sneak in attacks to regain control. This is my no means unique to Black people, as many LGBT can say when they got hit with "why don't you realize that (insert something here.)" With Black people, it is double, as many people realize they can talk down to Black People, in a way they would rarely do to other minorities, be they Jews, LGBT, or others, because the default power setting for Black people is often set at "ignore." There was a Richard Pryor skit that had everyone at Ellis island being taught the "N" word, because everybody knew they could say that.

This is not to say that we wall have to become fans of Marissa as an individual, but what it does mean is that we cannot naively wonder why people who know a routine all too well should not be suspect of you. Blacks are also used to the fact that if they accept a criticism, that many bigots will use that as a gangplank to get into a better position to attack, even and especially conservatives.

So, while we do not need to check our brains at the door, we also have to use that brain for empathy. The bigoted side of America has cranked up it's activity, to the point where they might as well be flipping the camera a bird as they shoot another black person on tape. They know that even getting Obama into office did not soften the bigots, but instead enraged them. They also saw how many people who were self claiming "liberals" were all too ready to defend the Zimmermans, or let Van Jones get thrown to the mob, and offered quiet whispering, weak tea apologies after the smoke cleared.

Simply put, most AA's have a lot of reason to be paranoid, especially now. If we really want to help them, we have to factor in that a lot of promises were made and broken.

[Nye Bevan]

62. "Be tactful and aware" is, indeed, excellent advice. For all DUers.

Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Ken if I may, this is implicit bias

and it isn't just about African Americans. but other groups here.

I try to be conscious of it myself. At times I might fail. We all do. But this is an exercise that will take a while. That said, I think that some folks have indeed used all this for nasty political ends and they have done a lot of damage.

[Ken Burch]

67. All valid points. Thank you for posting. n/t.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. You welcome

[KMOD]

70. After seeing your responses in GD-P regarding this matter,

Last edited Wed Aug 19, 2015, 02:47 AM - Edit history (1)

I find you to be completely insincere.

Black Lives Matter much more than HRC or BS's campaigns.

This is not a political game.


Unrec

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. And I have seen quite a few of you using it as a political football

unrec indeed.

[KMOD]

72. Oh, you've seen a few of me doing this?

Please, do tell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Those who have, know precisely who they are...

but I have called a few of them out and asked them to stop. They are doing a lot of damage. If you felt you are one, I will not contradict you. As Romanic said bellow, they know who they are. So unrec doubly, triply and bazillion so.

[romanic]

75. Those "few" know who they are.

[IMG][/IMG]

[romanic]

74. No offense

but from the OP it seems like you're infantilizing black users on here. The whole "don't talk down to them" bit just irks me. We shouldn't have to be "spoken" to in a certain way. This is a discussion forum, were all on an equal playing field here. We don't need to be spoken to in a certain way, just discuss, debate, listen, and learn. That's it and that goes for any topic.

[Paladin]

84. Well said.

Treating one another like grownups shouldn't be perceived as being racist.

[Ken Burch]

90. Infantilizing anyone was totally not my point.

How would you suggest I address this? My intent is not to say that AA's should be treated like children, but treated with respect.
If I need to rephrase the OP(which was largely addressed to white Du'ers), please give me some suggestions.

This is about trying to change the culture on this site...something that desperately needs to happen.

[libodem]

81. Yep

[img][/img]

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. And this is a textbook example of what the OP is talking about

congrats.

It is ugly, and it is very unhelpful to the cause you obviously support and adds to the toxicity of the site.

[Gormy Cuss]

89. Sadly appropriate cartoon. n/t