An email to my dad about BLM, Sanders, and Marissa Janae (warning: I swear. #NSFW)

[F4lconF16]

As for BLM v. Sanders in Seattle...there's a lot to say. First, I've actually met Marissa Janae multiple times and talked about feminism and black feminism a couple of times with her. I'd be shocked if she remembers me, but I very much remember her. I have a poster in my room with her name on it, as a matter of fact. She is fantastic, cares about her community, and I really like her. The bullshit that's been floating around DU is just that: bullshit. She's a hell of a strong woman, and she's black, and that scares the crap out of a lot of people.

I think that the BLM protests are some of the best things that could have happened to Sanders. He's clearly been listening; he's already updated his stances and changed his perspective, and that's the most important part. It's also gotten him a ton of publicity; the media's been doing its best to shut him out of the race, of course. This is giving him a huge chance to listen, understand, change his positions and emphasis, and gain the support of black voters before the primary or the general.

That being said, it hasn't gone that way. The reaction of white liberals has been, how do you say it, racist as hell. Respectability politics are a bunch of crap; neither you, nor I, or any white person has any right to judge or command the way blacks in this country protest. 314 black people killed since Mike Brown, and we scream that our poor candidate is getting attacked. That's not right, at all. He can handle it; he has handled it. And it's a good test as to whether he deserves the presidency. I personally think he's done a great job, considering. It's his movement and his followers that has been the problem. This is the best piece I've ever read on it: http://rhrealitycheck.org/ablc/2015/08/11/blacklivesmatter-hurt-feelings-white-progressives/--it's dead on in basically every way.

But yeah. I fully support their actions. I hope they continue to do it, too. If nothing else, white liberals need a slap in the face. Black communities are being literally wiped out, and most of them (believe me, I know--I live in the most white progressive place ever, around the most annoying white liberals ever) couldn't give two shits, because it isn't happening to them. But really, I hope they keep doing it because it keeps the conversation alive. Already, BLM has made huge progress with Sanders. The question is whether the rest of us are willing to listen.

Yuuuup. Thought I might edit it for those "sensitive" white folks around DU, but fuck it, who cares. Have fun, everybody.

Oh! And his response:

I have to remind myself not to look at things from my own perspective. My company provides a lot of culturally specific mental health care services, and we work closely with the AA community. As such I have to have a certain number of hours of cultural competency trainings each year. I'm paraphrasing here, but during one of them the black instructor was telling me about if a black person your are working with seems irritable or a bit hostile, to realize that something that wouldn't register with us, like the death of Sandra Bland (without the media attention now), or some even subtle racist comment on the news has an effect on them.


Did you know that as a young man, I was a manager of a drug store in an almost exclusive African American community. Quite a life experience for a young white man. It took 40 years of my life to really understand how much privilege I had growing up. Even today, I still find out things about privilege I didn't realize.

[ismnotwasm]

1. ...

You are one hell of a guy. I'm proud to have you in the community

[Kali]

2. I tend to agree with you here.

[Fred Sanders]

3. If white kids were being killed by police at the per capita rate of black kids, for example, the demands for

action would be deafening.

And there might be a rude protest or word or two.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/10/8382457/police-shootings-racism

"Black teens were 21 times more likely than white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica's Ryan Gabrielson, Ryann Grochowski Jones, and Eric Sagara reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica's analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."

[jeff47]

5. We also would be making demands of people who could do something about it now.

instead of focusing on people who can't do anything for at least 16 months.

[F4lconF16]

7. Nope. Not the way to do it.

The people who are in power now have made it clear they won't do a thing. Focusing on them is to some extent a waste of resources, though a valid action and necessary.

If Sanders gets elected (which you and many others are convinced he will be, and I certainly hope he will be), one of the most critical things he needs to understand is that racism (and other social justice movements) need to be not just a major part of his campaign, but perhaps the foremost part of his campaign.

No matter how many people repeat it on here, race, gender, etc., are all more important than the economic situation, though that may be the part that's significantly more challenging to address in the long run as well as being the part that affects all of us and links us together. MLK addressed racism first for a reason--yes, he wanted democratic socialism (or more) by the end of his life, but that was after creating a huge movement that had nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with recognizing our collective humanity.

Case in point: I talked to my barista at my coffee shop about 30 minutes ago, and Sander's heavy economic focus is one of the few things that's making her hesitant about voting for him, despite, as she admits, she really, really needs his education and economic policies. She specifically said that racism and gender equality need to be his top priority. And she's quite literally his ideal demographic, btw.

[jalan48]

9. Obama? Really?

[jeff47]

11. Can we store the bodies on your lawn while we wait 16 months?

Protesting sitting officials does not make it impossible to also protest candidates.

Also, the president is a not god-king. He can't change racist state laws. He can't fire racist police departments. He can't create new laws that allow the feds to jail racist cops without having to meet the ridiculously high bar of systemic civil rights violations. He can not force towns like Ferguson to get their money from taxes instead of fines.

There's a hell of a lot to fix if you actually want to save black lives. And someone who hasn't even won the primary yet can do the least.

[F4lconF16]

30. I think you missed the first part, and I also said what I meant poorly.

So my apologies. First, I did not say it wasn't a good thing to protest sitting officials:

Focusing on them is to some extent a waste of resources, though a valid action and necessary.

I would love for sitting officials to be protested more often. My goddess, just imagine the change that could be effected if we all went and camped out on the front lawns of each of our state and local representatives--just imagine how much they would freak out, and how much they might listen. It would be a beautiful thing. I am all for protesting sitting candidates.

But for the moment, most people aren't willing to engage to that extent, and the protests of currently elected officials has only done so much. And this is why I am loving what BLM has done to Sanders so far.

They're forcing us to have the conversation yet again--and that will do far more to effect change than will simply continuing the current protests (of which there are many--remember the media ignores them). They are engaging white progressives, and that is a big, big deal. The current silence on the part of many white liberals is the most harmful thing to the BLM movement, in my opinion. Blacks can and will fight to gain their freedom and their rights like they have in the past, and they will win in the long run as they have in the past, but for a true change in our society--one that doesn't leave us in much the same position we started in--we need to engage everyone. At least in my experience in Seattle, white liberals are talking more about BLM than I've ever heard before.

The other thing that they've already managed to do, that will be one of the most important things they can do, is change Sander's perspective. He may not be that powerful as president--indeed, he's stated that he will need the support of the people to be effective. As a leftist, I'm convinced that he has no power other than that of his ability to communicate the issues we face to the masses using his bully pulpit. The establishment will run him into the ground pretty much no matter what he does, but he can at least talk to us. And that's why its so important for him to realize now that racial issues (and social justice issues as a whole) need to be not just a part of his movement, but the core part, and the foremost part. These protests have just begun to achieve that.

[PADemD]

39. Protesting sitting officials

If Bernie is elected President, he is going to ask you to protest sitting elected officials as a means to accomplish his goals of changing our society. He will not lose touch with his supporters the day he assumes the office.

[Spazito]

4. That is a great e-mail...

and I love your Dad's response as well.

Thanks for posting it, it makes for a great read.

"Even today, I still find out things about privilege I didn't realize." Me too.

[BainsBane]

6. kick and rec.

[mythology]

8. I find the claim that unless you're black you can't criticize to be silly

I've never been to war, but I have no problem saying William Called was wrong. I've never been president, but I'm pretty sure W. did it wrong. I'm not Chinese, but I can say that their government sucks.

By you logic, should blacks not find it wrong that people protested to keep the confederate battle flag up? After all, not being white, they don't have the same historical affiliation with that flag.

I don't feel any need to turn off my opinion because of any trait I do or do not have. That isn't racist no matter who insists that it is.

[murielm99]

10. You're oversimplifying.

Black people cannot walk away. Their skin won't allow it. They could be doing anything, and end up as the Sandra Bland or Michael Brown. You really don't get it. This is literally life or death for them.

White people need to listen, not whitesplain.

I am seeing too many posts on DU that are dismissive of black people's opinions, needs, concerns. It did not start until Bernie was interrupted. But it is alarming and racist.

I don't think that any of the parallels you draw are the same at all.

Remember, this is supposed to be the UNDERGROUND. In the past, we welcomed civil disobedience and demonstration. We did not welcome violence, but I have not seen any of that from BLM.

Please try to remember what we are supposed to stand for.

[Live and Learn]

15. While I agree with your premise, I don't think using terms like 'whtesplain' is helphul.

The outrage being spoken by Black Lives Matter is both understandable and needed.

However, when one see's anyone being unfairly targeted and bullied I think one should speak up even if one agrees with the perpetrator's cause. Two wrongs never make a right.

I feel like we are walking a tightrope here. I have been a strong supporter of both Occupy and Black Lives Matter. In fact these are the major reasons I chose to support Bernie since I feel he will do the most for these causes (which I do feel have some cross relations). But I have no problem with others supporting other Democratic candidates since they are all by far a hell of a lot better than what is on the other, crazy side of the aisle.

Hopefully we can all come together and address the extremely important issue of Black Lives Matter without alienating one another and allowing the unfathomables to win and lead us further down the rabbit hole..

[Fred Sanders]

17. Strawman premise. Thomm Hartmann gets it. You should listen to his shows.

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. +1 ...

[Roy Rolling]

13. Yes we "white liberals need a slap in the face"

Yep, we all is sure alike.

I am disappointed that blatant racism like this is given the free pass of saying all white liberals are racist and not doing enough, in your estimation.

Believe it or not, there are many other issues affecting the black community that "white liberals" work tirelessly (and apparently thanklessly as well) to achieve. Not for their own race but for the benefit of others. Just because their passion is for other issues and not on the BLM issue, it is not racist.

Different strokes for different folks.

[F4lconF16]

31. As a white leftist, I do feel like I need a slap in the face.

Want to know something? If you could, for a little while, experience life as a black person in the United States, I have a strong suspicion it would feel like you'd been slapped in the face. The little things would add up, and the collective difference in perspective would be staggering.

So yeah. I think we need to wake up. We need a metaphorical slap in the face--better that than to be crushed while we're asleep by the collective forces aligned against us, no? We need to recognize just how dire that plight of black America is, and I for one don't think that white America (or white liberal America) has any idea how bad it really is. Me either, for that matter.

I fully recognize that many white people have dedicated their lives to issues that affect their lives and those of black lives: criminal justice reform, abortion rights, and education policy are a few that spring to mind. And I am thankful that those people are there. But change will require finding solutions for those issues not just by working on them, but focusing particularly on black lives and the ways in which solutions must be tailored to their specific problems.

[irisblue]

14. you & your dad rock!

[sufrommich]

16. Big K&R.

[cali]

18. so why did she lie and say that Sanders and people on stage assaulted her?

[TeeYiYi]

20. I'll just open this...

...bag of popcorn right here, while I wait for the OP to answer your question.

TYY

[F4lconF16]

33. OP answered. Btw. nt

[F4lconF16]

32. I don't know what you're talking about; I have not been focusing on Marissa Janae.

Either way, does it matter? I don't think it does.

Janae is not all of BLM, and though she may have been the main participant in the action and the focus of media attention, she is not what matters about the protest. The change that these protests have already effected within the Sanders campaign is what matters. The fact that the protest happened at all is what matters even more.

This might be why you have such an issue with these protests; I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. The individuals, the words spoken, the specific actions taken (yes, yes, I know she's a violent thug who attacked an old white man)--they're simply not what matters. What matters is that the protests are happening at all: clearly, white liberal America (Sanders included) hasn't yet fully embraced what BLM really means. We don't grasp the gravity of the situation. We don't put fixing those issues at the top of our list (and we have to, if we're to stand a chance at uniting the people against a common enemy).

When that happens, maybe our candidate won't be getting protested.

[cali]

40. yes. it matters that we accused Sanders and others on stage of being violent towards her.

There is video of the event. Far from.the truth.

[mcar]

19. Your dad sounds like a wonderful man

His kid is pretty good too.

[TeeYiYi]

21. For the record...

On Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

An email to my dad about BLM, Sanders, and Marissa Janae (warning: I swear. #NSFW, deal with it)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027074002

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"reaction of white liberals has been, how do you say it, racist as hell."

No the reaction hasn't been racist. It has been justly critical of inappropriate behavior. We need to stop this calling everyone who disagrees is a racist crap!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Aug 13, 2015, 02:10 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Name calling is out of hand and all of it needs to stop.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Somebody is uncomfortable.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: We are all free to engage in shit-stirring, as this poster did. But, fuck it. Who cares? Hide it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Are you serious?? Did the alerter really take offense at this post? This is an excellent OP that should not be hidden. The alerter should give this one some more thought.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is a fact. We have seen some of the most disgusting racism here and at that Sanders rally. The reaction has been racist. There have been racist slurs and a million excuses why black lives don't matter as much as you. You all worked hard to make yourself look like racists. You've driven off African American members and now seek to banish any dissent, anyone who doesn't feel white "liberals" are so superior they can tell black people when and where they are allowed to speak. Wear your racism with pride. You've worked hard for the reputation, and now we see you all for what you are.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

TYY *Juror #2*

[Logical]

22. Not interested since you needed to add "deal with it" for some reason. Nt

[kwassa]

24. So sensitive.

[Logical]

27. No. Just annoyed by made up drama! nt

[F4lconF16]

34. Fair enough. I was kinda in a hurry, and in a bit of an annoyed mood after reading some posts here.

It's been edited, with my apologies.

Care to comment now?

[Shankapotomus]

23. "This would not have happened were it not for the #BlackLivesMatter protesters."

That statement is unsupportable and throws the entire argument in favor of the tactics used by BLM at the Sanders rally into question.

It is presuming and advancing the false and unprovable narrative that Bernie Sanders would not have listened to BLM if they had approached him privately first, without risking the momentum of his campaign...something that is crucial for democrats to uphold going into an election if they are not going to be beaten by republicans.

Based on Bernie's 50 years of serving civil rights, there is no reason to think he would not have listened if BLM chose to just talk to him.

[kwassa]

25. no, it isn't.

It is presuming and advancing the false and unprovable narrative that Bernie Sanders would not have listened to BLM if they had approached him privately first,

This is not their narrative. This is your narrative. Nowhere in this article.

[F4lconF16]

35. That sound you just heard is the laughter of millions of black people throughout history laughing.

What you just said is basically this:

"If black people wanted to change something, they should have nicely asked the white guy in charge to change it for them. It would totally work."

And the laughing continues.

[Shankapotomus]

36. He's not just a "white guy"

He's a man with almost 50 years of civil rights activism under his belt.

Meanwhile, nothing but a girl in terms of political experience, barely fresh out of her Sarah Palin infatuation, led the charge of political amateurs protesting at his rally.

Sorry but skin color alone does not trump experience and past record nor make one an authority over someone who does have that experience and record.

You don't want to listen or trust the experience and record of a "white guy"?

I'm not listening or trusting some reckless bunch of political amateurs along with their Sarah Palin reject.

[F4lconF16]

37. "Nothing but a girl...barely fresh out of her...infatuation"

Yeah, we're done here. Whatever you might say about her, she is not "nothing but a girl". She's put her life (quite literally) on the line, over, and over, and over again for her community, achieving real change and real progress, and still teaching white men like me in the meantime. Oh, and she's done it all while being black, which makes it all the more impressive. You don't have a clue what "experience" can mean--no matter how much Sanders may have done, he will never know what it means to be a black woman fighting for her life and others. Never.

I'm not interested in talking with you. Get your sexist crap out of my thread, please.

[Shankapotomus]

38. Gladly

Good luck with being wrong on this.

And when you finally figure it out, remember me.

Btw, Had she been a man, I would have used "boy in terms of political experience."

Nice attempt at the sexism charge, though.

Bye.

[Marr]

43. You know, this straining to paint everyone who disagrees with you as racists and sexists

Last edited Fri Aug 14, 2015, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

is tiresome and unproductive.

You know very well the other poster was not saying that Marissa Janae should be disregarded because she's 'only a female', they were talking about age and experience.

What you did there was deceitful and it's the sort of thing that's making this place suck.

[F4lconF16]

46. That was sexist.

Oddly enough, cultural context is a thing. You can call a man something the same thing you call a woman, and have it mean something completely different.

The infantilization of women (and particularly black women) in our society is a very real thing. To say "Nothing but a girl...barely fresh out of her...infatuation" references the stereotype of women as helpless slaves to their emotions, their girlish opinions barely worth considering, whether it was intended or not. The poster may have been referring to age and experience, but instead chose to frame their argument in a rather poor manner, particularly given the current context.

Much like whites seem to continue to paternalize blacks and black actions in this country, intent or not.

[SunSeeker]

45. For the record...

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message

On Fri Aug 14, 2015, 05:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

"Nothing but a girl...barely fresh out of her...infatuation"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7076470

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Frivolous charges of sexism are personal attacks, and they make DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Aug 14, 2015, 06:06 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "I'm not interested in talking to you."

Might I suggest that the poster refrain from using message boards in the future, if discussion is not what they're after?
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not a personal attack, this is a challenge to what is written in a post. And F4lconF16 has every right to express his opinion on that post. Calling it (NOT the poster) "sexist crap" is not over the top, and in fact seems pretty reasonable. This alert on the other hand, it what sounds pretty frivolous, and it is frivolous alerts that "make DU suck" and drives out good members.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nothing frivolous about it. Please leave the post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was disgusted that there was even one vote to hide. Someone needs to tell juror #3 that saying you're not interested in talking to a person is not a hide-worthy offense. You can't force a person to talk to you. Sheesh.

[GitRDun]

26. Awesome post!

We need a ton more like it! Thanks for sharing.

[Person 2713]

28. Good Dad . He read your email listened to what you had to say and looks like he reflected on it

and gave you a good dad answer (relating to your opinion but giving his own reasons)

[Number23]

29. You and your dad sound like my kind of people. You can come to my house for a cuppa anytime

K&R

[Sunlei]

41. Thanks for sharing your letter to your Dad and his answer. Thank your Dad too, he's a very wise man.

[Punx]

42. Earlier

The Jebby crowd was chanting "All lives Matter" the other day. Well remember Orwell's Animal Farm.

"All Animals Are Equal"

"But Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others"

Now with that:

"All Lives Matter"

"But Some Lives Matter More Than Others!"


Please don't construe this as an attack on Martin O'Malley, his intentions were good when he said the same thing, people who show up for Bush fundraisers, I doubt it.

[F4lconF16]

47. You should post that as an OP. I like it. nt

[SunSeeker]

44. Great post. I love your dad's response.

You're lucky to have a dad like him. I could never have a conversation like that with my dad.