Recall against Calif. state senator (D), sponsored vaccine bill, cleared for signatures

[Newsjock]

Source: Sacramento Bee

Thwarted in the Legislature, opponents of California’s vaccine mandate law have turned to the ballot box with a recall aimed at Senate Bill 277’s champion.

A campaign to recall Sen. Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, the pediatrician who carried the bill requiring full vaccinations for school children, has been cleared to advance to the signature-gathering phase. Proponents have until Dec. 31 to collect 35,926 verified signatures from registered voters in his district.

... Their efforts to block the bill failed, with Gov. Jerry Brown signing it into law, but they are making good on the election threat. In addition to seeking to recall Pan, bill opponents are seeking to overturn the law via referendum.

At a press conference after the signing Pan said he was “not concerned” with the recall effort, predicting that constituents largely support the legislation.

Read more: http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article29168398.html

[shenmue]

1. They're fighting to let kids get sick

Horseshit.

[still_one]

2. Even if it gets on the ballot, California will reject it

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. two predictions on the antivaxer effort

1.- You will se more money than god parachute in. I am almost willing to bet it will be MORE than Prop 8. Yes, the "movement" sees this as a make or break moment When you spend time listening to them... there are times they drop these tidbits.

2.- They will lose, by a very narrow margin, or win by the same. But it will be close.

3._ Richard Pan (who I like) will go back to his practice as a pediatrician. I hate to say it, but I think the recall has a chance of actual success due to his district. Yes, democratic, but on the conservative flavor and this will send... a signal. This is the objective.

I know that Lorena Gonzalez, the SD Assembly Member who was the co-sponsor in the Assembly, has been targeted too. She posted this at her FB site some time ago. On the bright side, not only because of this. She has managed to piss off a lot of people who are well connected. None dare go against the NFL, she did, or the antivaxers, or a slew of other issues.

One of the most productive members of the Assembly, and chances are, due to her district., that those targeting her will waste their money.

[still_one]

10. Difference is prop 8 was very badly worded. No means for gay rights, Yes means against gay rights

essentially.

Do you really believe that most Californians are that uneducated about vaccines? I don't, but we will see.

Jim Beall is my senator. He is a great person, does a lot of outreach within his district. I have no sense of the people in Richard Pan's district, so I have no sense, however, the polls indicate the majority of Californians do believe in mandatory vaccinations:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article23047704.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. It is not the unedcuated part

it is the fear campaign.

Been watching elections long enough to understand that even the most clear of issues can be muddled to the point of irrelevancy... and the more money you throw one way or the other, the better your victory margins tend to be. Why I am saying it will be close. People are more or less educated. They were not... it would not even be close.

I'm also betting on deceiving adds where the prop will do 180 of what they tell the public it will, We see that here in San Diego often. And yes, it is frustrating as hell.

[still_one]

12. I do agree the ads will be deceiving, and outright lies by the anti-vexers

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Read post 4 for an example of what I mean

It never disappoints.

Somewhere, I guess, gravity will be repealed too. Should be fun. WEEEE!!!!

[daredtowork]

19. Oh FFS

I have an advanced degree from a world class university in History of Science.

I do not, and have never, promoted any anti-vaccination beliefs.

I am, however, against, mobbing and bullying - especially when I think it will cause *extreme backlash*.

Guess what: this recall/referendum movement is just one example of the kind of backlash I was trying to warn people about before.

It may feel good to demean and insult people for a few minutes, even as you are demeaning and insulting me now: but in the long run where is it getting you? Wasn't the goal, in theory, to promote the vaccination of children? How about the goal of retaining preponderance of Democrats in power in California? The kind of asshat behavior that goes on around "anti-vax crusading" may be enough to see the end of that.

Was Pan the one who suggested non-vaccinated people should be kept in quarantine camps? I'm sure that's already been turned into Holocaust-comparison agitprop somewhere.

People need to stop getting their jollies from being mean and start thinking things through.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Then stop cuddling the ignorant

because that is what you are doing. I also have a history degree from an American university and I happened to read the documents for the vaccination campaign of 1812 in New Spain, and the epidemic that lead to it. The attitudes that you are espousing, are not close, but similar to those of the Church... in 1812. Their reasons were different than yours, but I would never compare the enlightenment period to the level of anti intellectualism we are living though at the moment,. Since you got a history degree, in a particular field, I do not think I need to mention by name the books that are very pertinent to this very American problem.

[daredtowork]

25. My reasoning is simple

We can't espouse vaccination, climate change, or many of the social justice matters that I'm personally interested in if we end up living in a Red state.

Creating divides for unnecessary reasons is pushing California toward a Red state. This recall/referendum demonstrates how the vaccination issue creates splinter groups when people are pushed to extremes: and bullying is a form of pushing. This could have been handled differently. That's all I'm saying, and that's all I've ever said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Then you are cuddling the ignorant.

My opinion mostly having come from a developing world country with a population that accepts climate change. (They live it, we are starting to). It's also a country that overall does not have this discussion of whether vaccines work. I wonder if those peasants are more enlightened at times than Americans.

By the way. I cover politics in this state. We have some very good and mostly principled politicians. And we also have some that are not. Adds, people lie, regularly.

You can surrender, or you might want to read what Carl Sagan wrote in "A Demon Haunted World."

Have a good day.

On edit, enlightened is not the right word. Educated on the other hand, is.

[daredtowork]

30. Being principled is cold comfort in a Red state

This is where I fear California is going to end up if people continue to ram their principles down other people's throats this way.

True education and/or enlightenment is not done that way. People will resist if they think they are being forced. The great frustration about climate change (for instance) is we are right, and the world will fry if we don't get everyone on board with the fact we are right. But the people who are wrong might just band together and decide to bring the ship down because they've decided they don't like being treated like crap.

This is basically the malfunction of the entire "poor white trash" Red state America right now. I think it will take generations to address, though it may be too late. But the basic problem is education is inadequate and their social status is low. But they would rather vote GOP and wave their guns around than let a Democrat tell them they are stupid. End of story.

Everyone regards California as a Democrat safe State, but I don't think anything should ever be taken for granted. California is practically its own national economy, and it's too important a State for Dems to let slip away through carelessness.

Piling on the anti-vaxxers and driving them to home schooling is careless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Ok I got whooping cough last summer

I am an adult, I have my shots. I get them regularly because I am not anti science. But I got it becuase our vaccination rate is well bellow 95 percent for whooping cough. So in order to avoid the state going red... how many people's lives should be traded for that?

This is what we are talking about.

You say you are a historian... fine... and a historian of science. Perfect. You then should surely know the modern theory of disease behind vaccines. What you are asking, to allay your fears, is that we let pretty willfully ignorant, otherwise well educated (most of the antivaxers have college degrees) who are living in very blue counties, to just let them "win"?

SO I will ask once again. HOW MANY LIVES ARE YOU WILLING TO TRADE?

This should not even be a discussion and public health departments nation wide should not even be in fear of their lives at times.

[daredtowork]

35. Okay

You aren't understanding my position at all.

I want people to be vaccinated. IMHO the approach that's being taken could actually endanger that outcome by creating BACKLASH against vaccination.

I *am not* defending people who are against vaccination.

What I'm saying is this hard-charging, bullying, forceful approach will result in party splintering, and could be the first step toward our Red state future. Home schooling breeds extreme rightwing politics.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. This horrible forceful approach

Is standard public health policy around the world. Some nations go as far as charging parents with child endangerment, unless of course, there is a medical reason not to vaccinate.

And I should add. Data suggests that the exceptions increased the lack of vaccination. If your theory was correct, we would have maintained 95 percent and above rates.

[daredtowork]

39. Isn't America supposed to be a human rights leader?

Aren't we supposed to be somehow "different" and modeling our respect for individualism and autonomy for the rest of the world?

That's where we get our moral authority from we scold other nations about human trafficking and beating journalists over speech.

America is supposed to be "exceptional". The GOP likes to claim this "exceptionalism" is about having guns and being winners. But really it comes down to American respect for individual autonomy.

It's possible other countries with higher vaccine rates also did a better job of educating their citizens first. The American education system sucks right now. In my view, that needs to be fixed first.

In St. Louis, a bunch of school buildings actually have to be sold because they let people take their kids out of the "bad" public schools and put them into "good" charter and private schools - all the pubic funding was diverted to these other schools. By subverting the public school system, the St. Louis school system was privatized just as the GOP always wanted. Trends like that need to be reversed. Public schools need to be supported and become the "good" schools: and they need to be the source of the education that *supports* vaccination.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. When it comes to measles

The virus does not care. You are just a convenient host.

It is my right, human right, not to fear getting a disease that is preventable and could be very deadly. Or to have to fear my nephews might catch this because irresponsible parents did not vaccinate. Even if vaccinated if herd immunity goes low enough, even vaccinated populations are st risk.

By the way, access to vaccines is considered not just a public health priority, but gasp...a human right by the United Nations.

This attitude of yours and we would still have smallpox epidemics. Polio is nearly eradicated too. You do know some of these idiots believe modern polio vaccines cause it right? (Yes, a couple early batches did not properly attenuate the virus, why these days it uses dead virus)

Part of the problem is that indeed Americans (and Britons) are exceptional in a lack of memory of history. In the U.S. It's a general problem. In the UK it is just on this.

Since people, young parents, have not seen kids die, go deaf or blind, they believe (wrongly) that the vaccine causes autism. Never mind how many times the Wakefield study is refuted.

This is not cultural. And I guess your solution will lead to epidemics, often. But, but. We got rights and are exceptional.

For the record, I got to see very sick kids struggling to stay alive due to measles. It is not a sight you should want to see.

[daredtowork]

44. I don't think my solution leads to epidemics

I'm more optimistic than you are. I think people can be educated and more gently persuaded. I think PR campaigns can be conducted. I believe we can work together to get society behind the idea of vaccination. Threatening concentration camps is not the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. I think the proof is in the pudding

Last edited Fri Jul 31, 2015, 06:18 PM - Edit history (1)

we are already getting outbreaks and exporting measles from the happiest land on Earth to both Canada and Mexico, both of which have national surveillance and mandatory vaccinations. So yes, outright epidemics are indeed next if we continue down this path of belief based exceptions

I think the further proof is that once the State had mandatory vaccination, and once that was relaxed, those rates not just dropped, they crashed in some places. Care to look at Marin County?

http://www.marinmagazine.com/September-2014/Calling-the-Shots/

Ok for fairness, here is Orange County

http://voiceofoc.org/2014/09/vaccination-rates-continue-their-decline-in-oc/

By the way, I suppose you are also against the implementation of AB 32, which is seen as a key to control climate change and has been in the books for almost ten years now.

You should also check the other two states where Dr. Pan got the inspiration from, those are very deep red old Miss and not so red W. Virginia. I might add, only two states with 99 percent vaccination rates.

Oh and one last thing, pulling "concentration camps" which nobody is threatening anybody with is unhelpful. People can home school. Once their little darlings though reach college, well, they will have to catch up in vaccinations though. And many jobs do require it, like medical field, and if any go to the military, poor dears will be given all their vaccines in the first few hours of military induction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. And we agree on a lot I suspect

But my prism on this is that of public health.

[CreekDog]

31. Dr. and he is a doctor, a recognized pediatrician who will not come close to losing

In his district, they nominated two Democrats to run against each other.

He's not going to lose because of this.

It's also not turning his district, nor any other into a red district.

Your story sounds good, but it's nonsense.

He's a recognized pediatrician and he has done exactly what he should have done.

[daredtowork]

32. Pan might not be recalled

but at some point you should seriously pay attention to the fact that this "force it on people" approach created resistance.

In the end my story doesn't matter - only how this actually plays out in the long run. And I truly hope I don't prove to be Cassandra on this.

[KamaAina]

17. Mine too!

In fact, my job as a community advocate leads me to meet with him and/or his staff frequently.

[longship]

3. Fuck the ignorant anti-vaxxers. nt

[daredtowork]

4. This is a stupid fight

Last edited Thu Jul 30, 2015, 03:17 AM - Edit history (1)

Handled the wrong way from the beginning. By pushing to approach this issue forcibly, this just creates a major political culture divide within the Democratic party - along the lines of what we've always been able to sit back and watch in the GOP.

And what a major waste if "cause energy" that could have been used on fighting things like Citizens United or defending Planned Parenthood or #BlackLivesMatter!

The reaction on DU was enough to see that "anti-vaxxers", like any culture war, became social permission to bully and demean and mob people. Weeeeeee!

The outcone is obviously going to be a lot of homeschooling, which tends to foster radical rightwing fringe beliefs.

The stupid, it burns!

This Pan guy deserves to be recalled for such a massive political error that WILL have long term consequences for California even though the vaccine measure will pass.

This was simply the wrong way to handle it.

Never ram cultural difference down people's throat unless it's truly a matter of urgency like #BlackLivesMatter. The consequences aren't worth it.

[Positrons]

5. The luddites can have their fun...

... except when it literally kills other people.

There is no middle ground for this. If you want to participate in modern western society then get with the program.

I don't care about your sky gods who say no or your inability to comprehend basic math.

No compromise...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

9. Yeah, whooping cough, diphtheria, measles, mumps.....making comebacks, but.....

......no big deal, right?

[stevenleser]

13. Consequences worth it? How about I don't want my kid to die because some idiot denies science

Let me guess, those folks don't deny science enough to go without appliances and the electricity to run them do they?

...and the horse they rode in on to anti-vax freaks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. You mean never ram science down

so do we still have gravity? And do you think climactic change is real?

[daredtowork]

18. This is exactly the attitude

I'm not even an anti-vaxxer, much less a "climate denier" - much less "anti-science"!

Yet, just because I dare suggest, as I have tried to warn repeatedly in the past, that this is a political mistake, this turns into a big BULLY pile on.

You can wring your hands and say "for the sick children" all you want: in the end this not whether vaccination is right or wrong - of course it's right. What is *wrong*, is the way the politics of this matter was handled, which is highlighted oh so well in the replies I just got to this thread. I don't even have to be an anti-vaxxer, and people think it's open season on mocking me and trying to affiliate me with the GOP. Well, congrats on proving my point: this is carving out a tremendous and unnecessary party split in the future.

This should have been a matter for education and mutual respect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied

Last edited Thu Jul 30, 2015, 09:20 AM - Edit history (1)

I worked as a medic for ten years, in a country where this is not even a discussion, kids get their vaccines at school... It is that simple. Where parents, some of whom, many of whom, don't have more than a basic education, don't question this. Why? They remember their sisters and brothers getting the measles. Some are from very traditional societies where distrust for western medicine is deep rooted, except for vaccines.

They remember people dying from it. They know their kids will not get sick.

This should have nothing to do with politics, and be confined to public health. Enough is enough of cuddling the willfully ignorant. This is one of the reasons this country is in the kind of trouble it is. Why we have people who honestly believe, that NASA faked the moon landing.

I should add, early childhood vaccines are obtained at clinics, free clinics, offered nationwide, twice a year, during national vaccination campaigns This is a national priority. That same country has also expanded greatly their access to health care, but that is a whole different ball of wax.

[LanternWaste]

34. I imagine you'll allege to have in this instance, absolute knowledge

"Never ram cultural difference down people's throat unless it's truly a matter of urgency..."

I imagine you'll allege to have in this instance, absolute knowledge of which differences matter and which don't, yes (regardless of what you may or may not be ramming down your throat)?

[daredtowork]

36. Sigh

No, in this case I'm going to watch it play out, and then watch people wring their hands later about how California politics got "taken over" by anti-vaxxers, climate-deniers, and all sorts of other "extremist" positions.

The reality of being a "Cassandra" is no one believes you when you try to warn them about what is going to happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. He has somewhat of a point

Last edited Fri Jul 31, 2015, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

But when Mississippi and W Virginia are the other two states with similar laws in the books ... I would not say a good one...

[SidDithers]

7. Watch for anti-vax asshat RFK Jr. to join the fight...

he was very involved in the fight against SB277 before it passed.

Sid

[HFRN]

16. ...

[onecaliberal]

8. If you don't believe in science you are not a Democrat/

I don't give two fucks what you call yourself, go stand with climate deniers. You do not have the right to sicken other people because of epic fucking stupidity

[Recursion]

20. 40% of Democrats believe God created man in our current form less than 10,000 years ago

I want to let that sink in for a minute.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. "Citation needed", as they say on Wikipedia.

40% of Americans generally may believe that (I think I've seen a survey that said something similar, anyway), but I'd be somewhat surprised if it were "40% of Democrats".

[Recursion]

27. It's 38% of Democrats, it turns out

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108226/republicans-democrats-differ-creationism.aspx



38% of Democrats believe in young earth creationism, 39% believe in guided evolution (it's 60/32 for Republicans).

[Starry Messenger]

23. Idiots.

[LeftyMom]

28. Oh good, that means I get to tell morons off loudly.

I'm in his district, so this should make trips to the grocery store more interesting than normal for a while.

Notes for non locals. Getting to the signature gathering phase in CA is almost comically easy if you have a budget. At this point they'll have to decide between paid signature gatherers and volunteers. They'll also need to gather about twice the signature goal because a high share of signatures will be invalid because they're duplicates, not registered in the district, or their information or signature doesn't match their voter registration. The paid gatherers frequently lie about the contents of their petitions to obtain signatures, but the volunteers will have a hard time without obvious places to trawl for signatures: usually volunteer gathering works best when it's an issue churches are pushing.

The district isn't especially conservative by the standards of valley suburbs, and a lot of conservative types are OLD and likely to give a petition gatherer a speech about what polio was like rather than a signature. And a bunch of mostly white people from somewhere else attacking an Asian doctor isn't a real good look in this very Asian district, either.

[ibegurpard]

29. hope they get stomped

The recall people that is

[jwirr]

37. We should all start a counter petition against the recall.

[Johonny]

42. The Red Badge of Stupid

people love to get other people ill rather than admit they are horribly misinformed on the facts. I'm sick of this country embracing fear and loathing over science. I will not be supporting the anti-vaxers with my vote for any office even if it means voting for a pro-science Republican. F' these people. Luckily my district so far is not supporting loonyvile.