Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

still_one

(92,217 posts)
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:09 AM Jul 2015

Ken Cuccinelli Says 'Black Lives Matter' Insults White People

A panel discussion on CNN got heated Sunday when former Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli (R) argued that "Black Lives Matter" is a poor message because it makes white people feel less valued.

After former South Carolina Rep. Bakari Sellers (D) explained that as a black man, he was "the only person at this table whose next interaction [with law enforcement] may cause them to be a hashtag," Cuccinelli suggested that the "Black Lives Matter" slogan and hashtag should be amended, according to CNN footage shared by Raw Story.

"Adding t-o-o at the end puts it in a context that makes sense," he argued. Sellers answered that message is already implicit in the slogan.

"Well, you may say that," Cuccinelli told Sellers. "And there’s plenty of reason to understand that. But I don’t think every American hears it that way. They hear, 'Here we are. Yes, we have this political motivation that we're separating out this one category of Americans and saying they matter more than everybody else.'"


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ken-cuccinelli-black-lives-matter_55b51821e4b0a13f9d18d863?


It is very sad that Cuccinelli and others like him are so dense not to realize that the reason the BLM slogan is highlighted, is because African American lives have meant less than White American lives for some time now in America, and it is time for that to change

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ken Cuccinelli Says 'Black Lives Matter' Insults White People (Original Post) still_one Jul 2015 OP
I agree. cilla4progress Jul 2015 #1
'Splain it to them. Igel Jul 2015 #12
Ken Cuccinelli insults white people Bettie Jul 2015 #2
That is an excellent way to look at it still_one Jul 2015 #5
While I understand the gist of the slogan moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #3
The point is that is NOT the reality. Black lives mean less than white lives in America. The still_one Jul 2015 #6
I am talking about what the push-back might be from. moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #7
Women still get the short end of the stick. It wasn't that long ago that the Lilly Ledbetter Act still_one Jul 2015 #8
You and I will have to disagree. I think there have been moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #9
Did you even read what I wrote? Equal pay for equal work, a woman's right to choose, a woman's still_one Jul 2015 #14
I think your last sentence moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #21
When you make the comment about "Whites, (especially White males) who feel marginalized" still_one Jul 2015 #23
I don't tattle on people. That is my whole point. moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #24
You may not realize that because someone is part of a certain demographic that does not mean they are not bias still_one Jul 2015 #25
Personally, I say who cares about the feelings of white guys? alarimer Jul 2015 #19
Are you "accusing" me moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #22
What do you think of the term "white privilege"? U4ikLefty Jul 2015 #28
I can understand it a bit. moonandsixpence. Jul 2015 #29
He should get over it. Alenne Jul 2015 #4
The Cucch is an idiot Gothmog Jul 2015 #10
As a white male my feelings are extremely hurt... catnhatnh Jul 2015 #11
As opposed to women being insulted by his views on abortion? mythology Jul 2015 #13
Eggs-zactly. cilla4progress Jul 2015 #15
How would someone know what you are referring to, you don't even supply a link still_one Jul 2015 #16
It wasn't necessary cilla4progress Jul 2015 #17
tough shit ibegurpard Jul 2015 #18
The risk that some white folks might have their feelings hurt BainsBane Jul 2015 #20
In the U.S ''White Lives Matter" is a given. They've been mattering for several centuries. YOHABLO Jul 2015 #26
This Cuccinelli doesn't get it. PatrickforO Jul 2015 #27

cilla4progress

(24,736 posts)
1. I agree.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:20 AM
Jul 2015

I am getting really sick of white people called out for their racism being hurt and offended! I had an interaction about this over the weekend. I finally lost my top.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
12. 'Splain it to them.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jul 2015

I mean, you must know more about what they feel than they know, what their true motivations are and what they should be.

Written words have no stress, no emphasis. We can change typefaces to show it, but it's still a pale reflection of how natural speech contours go.

That said, read the following:

Black lives matter.

Black lives matter.

Black lives matter.

Yeah, yeah, there are other options. These are the easiest and working through a stripped down paradigm for just these three's going to take a while. (Linguistics tries to view sentences not just in isolation, but as part of a paradigm. That points out differences, makes clear(er) what's relevant, and often provides understanding. For verbs we do this all the time. Take "Aren't I right?" You might conclude that "are" is the first person non-past singular of 'to be'. Then you'd conclude "I are right!" Produce the paradigm, and you see that it doesn't work. "Aren't I" is a knee-jerk effort to avoid saying ain't I.) Back to the three sentences.

For each, you can add certain additional propositions. You can't add others. * means "anomalous," the meaning of the sentence as a whole is off kilter. You may not like the meaning, but that's a different thing. *? stands for "I think it's off, but not by much." There are lots of cases where judgments vary slightly from person to person; often when they vary and you have the people with varying judgments read the sentence out loud there's a real difference in how they're reading. It also takes some training, I guess we'd call it "mindfulness" these days, to be able to figure out what, exactly, you're judging. This may not work.

*Black lives matter, not their possessions.
Black lives matter, white lives don't.
Black lives matter, not just white lives.
*Black lives matter, white property does, too.

For the first, if you emphasize "black" you're drawing a contrast with something. You leave it up to the good will of the listener to figure out what you likely mean. No good will? They'll assume you mean something they find insulting. In the first sentence, the contrast is "black" and "possessions." Apples and nudibranchs, not apples and apples. For the second and third, the contrasts are felicitous (meaning they're perceived as okay). And while there's a black/white contrast in the fourth, nonetheless we're back to comparing race and possessions.

Black lives matter, not their possessions.
*?Black lives matter, white lives don't.
*Black lives matter, not just white lives.
Black lives matter, white property does, too.

Notice that the judgements for the second sentence are pretty much flipped. In the first sentence we're comparing their nouns. In the second, we're comparing lives and lives, but while the sentence says "I'm going to contrast 'lives' with something else," it actually contrasts it with "lives." If you let the contrast spread over "black lives"--a small change--then it's felicitous. The fourth is back to clearly contrasting a noun with a noun.

*Black lives matter, not their possessions.
*?Black lives matter, white lives don't.
*Black lives matter, not just white lives.
*Black lives matter, white property does, too.

Cross-linguistically, a contrast or emphasis on the verb either means you're going to contrast the verb or you're emphasizing the entire phrase. So "black lives matter, don't just throw them away" is fine--you're contrasting the actions or drawing a conclusion. "Black lives matter, you can't ignore them" makes the entire proposition relevant. But in each of the sentences I judged, there's a contrast between parts of the propositions (so the entire thing isn't being contrasted as a single thing) and it's not the verb that's up for contrast.

Why is this relevant?

Because what you're saying is unimportant is how the words are understood, but people really assume everybody knows what they know and sees things as they see them. Now, small children have a problem: If you have something behind a screen so that they can see it but you can't, they assume that since they can see it you must be able to see it. If they watch you put something in a drawer and close it and a stranger walks in, they assume that the stranger knows what's in the drawer--they know it's there so everybody knows it's there. Most of us grow out of that by 1st grade.

So, given the words "black lives matter" how do you pronounce it? I assume that it's not a learned phrase that has lost all internal structure so it's essentially one word for you.

I default to "black lives matter." The contrast is that they matter, they're not meaningless. It says nothing about any other lives or people. It's a simple affirmation of importance, not relative importance. (Given the right context, that could change. Language is messy, with layers upon layers. Let's assume a neutral context.) Nothing forces me to make that assumption except good will.

I find "black lives matter" to either be more complicated to deal with, or contrasting "lives" with other things blacks have. If the latter, I don't like it; if it's more complicated, it's because emphatic sentence contours for emotion get in the way of the rules concerning how we stress individual words.
Language is still messy. But the messiness can't just be ignored here, so my overall moral judgment is uncertain.

I find "black lives matter" to be offensive, because the clear contrast is that other lives don't matter. I assume that for most people who use the phrase this isn't the intended pronunciation. But again, that's an assumption rooted in good will.

There's a shitload of really, really bad ill will in circulation. Some of it is just pure racism, so that assumption would give you the reading that it's black lives that are important, not others' lives.

The problem is that when you show ill will, you really tend to get ill will thrown right back in your face. It doesn't matter if you're pulled over for a traffic stop or just protesting on the street. You show hostility, the immediate response is hostility. And a lot of #BlackLivesMatter folk are big into showing ill will. The ill will in response isn't necessarily racism. It's a normal human response.

The next phase of the problem is that if people want to be seen as a group, then you see those members' actions you want to see. If you see white people as a group, you can pick out the racist pricks and generalize; you can pick out the social activists and generalize. Both generalizations are simply and utterly wrong. But it's quick and easy thinking. But it's a common, human thing to do: you see a people as a group, you can pick out subsets and impute those actions and attitudes to the entire group. We do it with Muslims ("they're all terrorists", "they're all fine people&quot . We do it with African-Americans. It's jingoist, communalist, tribal. It's how we've been for at least 10k years. We're perfectly happy to ignore most of the information if it suits us--and we're often unaware that we're doing it.

In other words, if you have ill will going into the conversation, "black lives matter" is "black lives matter." If you pick out the hostile subgroup, then that hostility is taken to belong to the group: black lives matter." If you pick out a sympathetic group, then there's no hostility, and you see "black lives matter" as a simple affirmation that they matter and have worth.

Now your job is to 'splain the one true way that all whites interpret "black lives matter." Or maybe just 'splain what it is they're actually doing and thinking.

Too much 'splaining, too little listening. Heard one guy saying that the caricature he'd draw of the body politic is a person with a huge mouth and little tiny ears and virtually no stomach. Talks a lot, listens little, digests and understands less. Instead of outrage we need to be saying, "Out, rage!"

Bettie

(16,110 posts)
2. Ken Cuccinelli insults white people
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jul 2015

by assuming we're all blind, stupid, and unable to read enough to see what is happening in this country.

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
3. While I understand the gist of the slogan
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:24 AM
Jul 2015

there are Whites (especially White males) who feel marginalized and this just throws gasoline on the fire. Granted, it's easy to laugh it off and say "poor baby" to White males but by the same token, I am in favor of whatever unites America and specifying BL over others only serves to create division, even if unintentionally.

still_one

(92,217 posts)
6. The point is that is NOT the reality. Black lives mean less than white lives in America. The
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:31 AM
Jul 2015

criminal justice system has demonstrated this time and again, but it also permeates throughout other facets in American life

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
7. I am talking about what the push-back might be from.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:37 AM
Jul 2015

In general, girls are being encouraged to achieve academically but it seems as if boys are getting the short end of the stick. And yes, historically it was the other way around. The problem is that when any group feels blamed for those who came before, then they will feel attacked and it creates more division!

still_one

(92,217 posts)
8. Women still get the short end of the stick. It wasn't that long ago that the Lilly Ledbetter Act
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:47 AM
Jul 2015

passed.

There is now a consorted movement, not only to get rid of a women's right to choose, but also to ban birth control.

Gender inequality is alive and well my friend

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
9. You and I will have to disagree. I think there have been
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:55 AM
Jul 2015

many racial and gender advances in the last 70 years. I just heard recently that women have surpassed men in enrolling in medical school! I mean, that is very impressive!

still_one

(92,217 posts)
14. Did you even read what I wrote? Equal pay for equal work, a woman's right to choose, a woman's
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jul 2015

right to access birth control are all being threatened. You name one example of more women going to medical schools as though all the problems have been solved

You do realize that the Republicans have essentially declared a war on women, or perhaps you weren't aware that when a woman is raped they are able to turn off conception at least according to the republicans running, but there is more. Many of our friends in the Republican Party are also against abortion for rape, incest, and some even if the life of the mother is at stake

Women are paid considerably less than men for the same jobs. That is a fact

I won't even get into the racial inequalities that have been occurring because I suspect we will disagree with that also.

Perhaps you should consider a forum more in tune to your point of view

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
21. I think your last sentence
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 10:56 PM
Jul 2015

negated every single one above it. Totally unnecessary. Not everyone will agree with you on everything but you should still be civil to them and not covertly accuse people of being intolerant or whatever political party that goes along with.

still_one

(92,217 posts)
23. When you make the comment about "Whites, (especially White males) who feel marginalized"
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jul 2015

That speaks volumes where you are coming from.

Being Arrested Is Nearly Twice As Deadly For African-Americans As Whites

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/being-arrested-is-nearly-twice-as-deadly-for-african-americans-as-whites/

Black Americans Are Killed At 12 Times The Rate Of People In Other Developed Countries

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/

By You saying my last sentence negates every single one above it, tells me exactly where you stand.

If you have a problem with that, then please Alert the Admins that I am being intolerant, but keep in mind this is a Democratic progressive forum

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
24. I don't tattle on people. That is my whole point.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:40 PM
Jul 2015

Please let us discuss this without any accusations of bigotry. You cannot go from one extreme to another, which is why I brought up the issue with boys and academic success. We must encourage ALL students to succeed. I wonder if boys are getting the short shrift now. I am not male and I don't identify as White, either. So I am not telling you all this from the standpoint of a scared, White male in America. I just believe in equality across the board.

still_one

(92,217 posts)
25. You may not realize that because someone is part of a certain demographic that does not mean they are not bias
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:56 PM
Jul 2015

against that demographic.

Perfect examples are Clarence Thomas, Alan West, Phyllis_Schlafly, Ann Coulter, etc.

You may believe in equality across the board, but that is NOT the reality of what living in America is for African Americans.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
19. Personally, I say who cares about the feelings of white guys?
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:22 PM
Jul 2015

Except that when their feelings are hurt (by say, women, or black people) they tend to shoot up movie theaters or churches. So maybe a little tip-toeing is necessary because they are so very well-armed.

They have been on top of the heap (even if they don't personally realize it or feel like it) forever.

We are leveling the playing field (or attempting to, at least) by righting wrongs that should have been righted ages ago.

The point being is that these marginalized white males need to get over themselves in a hurry. Sure, keep voting for Republicans, a party which is full of other white guy dinosaurs.

I'm through coddling them, that's for sure. I've run out of patience for the sensibilities of misogynists and racists. Time to stop pandering to them.

"Black lives matter" is simply highlighting the fact that they are killed disproportionately killed at the hands of police, for one thing. Something that white guys do not have to worry about as much, though it does happen. It isn't creating division; the divisions are already there. Whether anyone chooses to see them or do anything about it, is another matter.

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
22. Are you "accusing" me
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 11:03 PM
Jul 2015

of being a Republican due to what I posted? Or were you speaking in general?

In any case, tell me what you think of this situation that I encountered about a decade ago when I went back to university as an adult student. I had a Black older female professor and the course was on the history of public education in America. She was using a text that one of her colleagues had written. I think in retrospect that it may have been a bit strident. At the time I was new on the scene and just took for granted that books are assigned and that is that.

So we were learning about the European invaders and all the atrocities committed and one of them was how they took the Native American children, cut their hair, put them in white shirts and it is a shameful period in our history for sure. But one young White male student (this university was quite diverse) asked the professor: "Is there anything good that White people did?" And while you might consider it a snotty question, I honestly was enlightened by it.

You see, that young man did not commit those acts. And that young White man may have gone through years and years hearing little else but how evil his people were. Shouldn't ANY regard be given towards Caucasian students to not totally put down THEIR heritage? I am not even 100% White myself so I ask as an innocent bystander!

 

moonandsixpence.

(59 posts)
29. I can understand it a bit.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jul 2015

Growing up a mixed person among a lot of Whites, I could see that they had the connections via their parents' status and were much more confident and therefore comfortable in high school. They also had the nicer clothes, which is huge at that age.

But I remember one Black girl whose father was a doctor (think he was prominent, too) and she was right there with them. She probably lived on the cushier side of town and her parents probably hobnobbed with the other "pillars of society." And so I think that it's much more about income levels these days than skin color. Poor Whites in Appalachia hardly have White privilege, in other words.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
11. As a white male my feelings are extremely hurt...
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:00 PM
Jul 2015

which I am sure is exactly like the feeling of having your family enslaved for 15-20 generations...

cilla4progress

(24,736 posts)
15. Eggs-zactly.
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 12:40 PM
Jul 2015

I was told my post was "hateful." This was in follow-up to a lovely story about an American Vietnam war veteran's heroic actions during the war and his recent passing. For some reason the author felt compelled apparently to include a racist rant about the "thugs" Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin. When I called the forwarder of the post out on it, he was offended and said I was hateful.

How's it feel to walk a mile in someone else's shoes? Or does this not factor into their world view?

BainsBane

(53,035 posts)
20. The risk that some white folks might have their feelings hurt
Mon Jul 27, 2015, 03:32 PM
Jul 2015

is more important than black lives for far too many.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
26. In the U.S ''White Lives Matter" is a given. They've been mattering for several centuries.
Tue Jul 28, 2015, 12:43 AM
Jul 2015

Is Cuccinelli pandering to the dumb down folks who vote against their best interests? GOP white folk don't get it.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Ken Cuccinelli Says 'Blac...