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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:53 PM Jul 2015

Let's look at a country with high gun ownership, privatized healthcare, and no minimum wage.

I'm talking, of course, of Switzerland.

Switzerland is making the Internet rounds right now after an excellent piece on Vox by Chantal Panozzo comparing Swiss and American work culture, and how she never wants to work in the US again. Having worked in Europe I sympathize.

Switzerland has no legal minimum wage. (I'll get to what it does have below.) Switzerland has a health care system much like the ACA in which everyone must purchase private insurance with subsidies based on income. Switzerland has the fourth-highest rate of gun ownership per capita in the world. Finance makes up 11% of the Swiss GDP, as opposed to 8% in the US, while. Their economy is largely similar to ours: about 1/4 manufacturing and 2/3 services; we have higher agriculture and extracting.

Despite this legal situation, Switzerland has a Gini index of 29.6 (ours is 41.1; lower means less income inequality). Switzerland has a homicide rate of 0.6 per 100,000 (ours is 4.7; 8 times as high). And Switzerland has much better health care outcomes by every metric (though it has high costs by European standards).

My point is that we can't just expect to adopt European laws and get European outcomes, because in large strokes we have a system pretty much like Switzerland's. The US faces fundamentally different problems than western European countries do.

It's common, when Americans talk about Switzerland, to simply wave one's hand and talk about "population differences", but to me this is incomplete. For one, Switzerland is a polyglot federation of states ("cantons", as they call them) with significant constitutional autonomy and a high percentage of immigrants in the population -- sound familiar? They're significantly more polyglot even than the US, with four official languages (the US has zero). And immigrants make up almost twice as much of the population as in the US (24% there vs. 13% here).

So what are the differences?

1. Even with the immigrants, Switzerland is almost entirely white (like 98% or so). White people, over and over again, have been shown to be much more willing to support government benefits for other white people than for nonwhite people. And the non-white populations in Switzerland do fall through the cracks much more often than white Swiss do. And you may remember Switzerland recently passed a very vindictive law essentially banning the construction mosques that look like mosques.

2. Switzerland has an 8% national sales tax, an 18% corporate tax, and a highest personal tax rate of 11.5% (our rates are 0%, 40%, and 55% respectively). The Swiss tax system is much more regressive than ours; this is a pattern that repeats itself throughout Europe.

3. They trade a lot more than we do. 63% of their GDP vs 24% of ours. But, they let their currency fall compared to the Euro and dollar based on their current account balance. This makes imports to Switzerland more expensive, and exports cheaper, so they wind up with a trade surplus many years. We, in contrast, both have a tendency to seek a strong dollar, and have trading partners who actively keep the dollar stronger than it probably should be for that exact reason.

4. 25% of workers in Switzerland belong to unions, as opposed to 10% in the US. Furthermore, the cantons require collective bargaining industry-wide in most cases.

5. Possibly most important, IMO: in the US, the only recognized stakeholders in a business are holders of equity (who have 100% say when things are good) and holders of debt (who have 100% say when things are bad). In contrast, Switzerland gives holders of both debt and equity a say at all times, and requires labor to have representation on the board as well.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Let's look at a country with high gun ownership, privatized healthcare, and no minimum wage. (Original Post) Recursion Jul 2015 OP
Numbers 1 and 5 are the most critical differences. hifiguy Jul 2015 #1
K&R +1 newblewtoo Jul 2015 #2
When discussing Swiss gun ownership Swiss conscription must be taken into account. Electric Monk Jul 2015 #3
^^THIS^^ nt eppur_se_muova Jul 2015 #4
That's what I understood as part of the requirement of Swiss gun ownersip London Lover Man Jul 2015 #9
So does that mean it's the people, not the guns, that are the problem? (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #17
See the subthread beginning with reply #21 Electric Monk Jul 2015 #28
What bizarre pruning of the facts Doctor_J Jul 2015 #5
You're almost right Recursion Jul 2015 #6
+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Jul 2015 #7
Post removed Post removed Jul 2015 #10
Name one thing false in that post (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #16
Isn't Switzerland working on passing the Mincome? daredtowork Jul 2015 #8
It failed at a referendum Recursion Jul 2015 #15
Health insurance companies are non-profit in Switzerland BainsBane Jul 2015 #11
Sort of. The companies are for-profit, their plans are actuarially neutral Recursion Jul 2015 #13
In addition to other comments, I'd question points 2 and 3 DFW Jul 2015 #12
They didn't want to keep it low forever, sure Recursion Jul 2015 #14
For sure, cantonal taxes vary widely, and the Swiss include them when considering their tax burden DFW Jul 2015 #20
So good labor helps. joshcryer Jul 2015 #18
Labor unions do more than labor laws, this would lead me to believe Recursion Jul 2015 #19
About that "high gun ownership"... Spider Jerusalem Jul 2015 #21
No, automatic weapons are not banned Recursion Jul 2015 #22
Private ownership of full-auto weapons is banned in Switzerland. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2015 #23
Banned for non-servicemembers? Recursion Jul 2015 #24
Members of the militia do not own their issued weapons. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2015 #25
But they can buy ammunition privately Recursion Jul 2015 #26
No, they can't Spider Jerusalem Jul 2015 #27
Private health insurance regulated to the hilt by the government Crunchy Frog Jul 2015 #29
A key quote in the OP that highlights the tradeoff between social and economic progressivism AZ Progressive Jul 2015 #30
I've always felt education was the only real way forward. raouldukelives Jul 2015 #31
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
1. Numbers 1 and 5 are the most critical differences.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 06:58 PM
Jul 2015

Plenty of 'murkans will happily do without government benefits that are universal in the developed world just to make sure non-white people won't get them.

The corporate form is a privilege, not a right. Jefferson warned us about the enormous dangers corporatios and banks would inevitably pose to democracy. The Swiss and the Germans have far saner systems in place to deal with corporations.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
3. When discussing Swiss gun ownership Swiss conscription must be taken into account.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:00 PM
Jul 2015

They really do have a sort of "well regulated militia" among the general populace (that the US is lacking) that corresponds with their high gun ownership rate .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland

 

London Lover Man

(371 posts)
9. That's what I understood as part of the requirement of Swiss gun ownersip
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:05 AM
Jul 2015

and it makes full sense because by then they know what responsible gun ownership means.

If US wants to have guns, conscription/military service should be requirement of ownership, period - to meet the well regulated militia requirement.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
5. What bizarre pruning of the facts
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 10:28 PM
Jul 2015

As noted below, their gun ownership is largely due to their well regulated militia.

As for the healthcare, 1. Everyone pays the same amount. 2. The companies are forbidden from making a profit on the basic insurance (unlike mine, which reaped record profits last year). 3. The annual deductible is $184 (unlike, say, mine, which is $8350). 4. Their cost is capped at 8% of their income, unlike mine, which is 25% for new people at my employer.

Your post will undoubtedly get many recs, but it's largely bullshit.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
6. You're almost right
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:02 PM
Jul 2015

Everyone does not pay the same; there are plans available with lower or higher premiums and lower or higher deductibles. The lowest allowable deductible is $184; the highest is $1500. (There's also 10% coinsurance after the deductible.) The plans are required to be actuarially neutral ("no profit&quot but they can be and are bundled with supplemental for-profit plans (our plans cap profit to 25%, and surprise surprise we spend about 25% more on health care than Switzerland... though note that in CH even preventive care has a copay). And premiums in the US are capped at 10%, so I'm not sure where you got the 25% from.

Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
8. Isn't Switzerland working on passing the Mincome?
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 11:58 PM
Jul 2015

so it's not like they are the same "screw everyone who doesn't come out on top of the capitalist system" country that we are.

also, this Switzerland. "Swiss bank account" ring any bells? A lot of their success is built on crime and money-laundering, and it may not be so pleasant to live there when the reckoning comes for that.

BainsBane

(53,038 posts)
11. Health insurance companies are non-profit in Switzerland
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:19 AM
Jul 2015

that makes a huge difference.

Also aren't most guns hunting rifles in the countryside? Don't all Swiss do compulsory national service?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
13. Sort of. The companies are for-profit, their plans are actuarially neutral
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:41 AM
Jul 2015

ACA caps the profit on the basic care plans at 25%; Switzerland caps them at 0% (the companies make money by selling supplemental insurance).

DFW

(54,420 posts)
12. In addition to other comments, I'd question points 2 and 3
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:35 AM
Jul 2015

I don't know what Kanton has a highest personal tax rate of 13.2%, but it sure isn't Genève (Geneva). Our office is there, and our man there screamed an howled when the raise we gave him when he joined us (he used to be a graphics artist) bumped his personal income tax rate up from 15% to 25%. I told him he was living in a tax paradise, and he said I must be crazy to live in a country where the rate was even higher--and Texas doesn't even have a state income tax! You say tomayto and I say tomahto.

I don't know where this bit about letting the franc fall against the euro came from. They had the franc pegged at €1=CHF 1.20 for years. This winter, they decided overnight to uncouple the franc from the euro, which was dropping like a stone on the international markets due the uncertainty over Greece, and the Franc bounded upward, NOT downward, by about 20% overnight to parity with the euro. This did not "make imports to Switzerland more expensive." On the contrary, it made them cheaper. By the same token, it did not make their exports cheaper. On the contrary, it made them more expensive. The Swiss exporters and tourist industry howled in protest as their business dropped dramatically overnight.

The part about the guns and well-regulated militia is pretty much correct. Almost every Swiss man is an army vet and has a gun, keeps it locked up in a closet under regulation lock, and my man there probably hasn't even looked at his (except for maybe some mandatory periodic cleaning) in probably fifteen years or more.

At best, some of the fact researching seems a little spotty, to put it mildly. I'm not questioning the piece by Chantal Panozzo, as she was writing from first-hand experience. But I have my office there, too, and am down there every two months or so, speak French, Italian and the Swiss German dialect (Basel, Zürich and Bern versions, anyway). So, while I don't know everything, it's not like I get what I DO know from some internet site, but rather from real live Swiss people while I'm in Switzerland.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
14. They didn't want to keep it low forever, sure
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:44 AM
Jul 2015

But they spent a lot of money keeping the CHF lower than their trading partners wanted it to be.

The tax rates are straight from the CH government website; I'm not sure where you think the problem is. The highest individual income tax rate is 11.5%; there can be canton income taxes on top of that (just like we can have state income taxes on top of Federal ones -- or not; the canton I lived in didn't have any income tax, though it had crazy high property taxes).

DFW

(54,420 posts)
20. For sure, cantonal taxes vary widely, and the Swiss include them when considering their tax burden
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:01 AM
Jul 2015

Geneva and Zürich are very high for obvious reasons. Any Swiss will tell you his total rate, and rarely break it down. As my man there is in Geneva, his total rate is 25%. If he had not inherited the house his dad left him, he would have had to move, as he could never afford a house in town. As it is, he lives closer to Cointrin than the Quai Mont Blanc.

You bet the Swiss government did their level best to keep the franc low. As opposed to the USA, they do NOT want their currency being a world reserve currency. As a tiny nation with a fair amount of industry and a substantial number of their people dependent on tourism, a strong franc is disastrous to business there. A grande mocha at Starbucks is about $8. I don't do McDonald's, but I'm told that a simple meal that costs about $4.50 in the States costs $15 or more in Switzerland. A simple meal for two at a lower-end restaurant is seldom under $50. The high (dollar-) salary the average Swiss earns disappears right back again when they have to live on it. They only uncoupled their currency from the Euro because of the Euro mess, not because they wanted the franc to appreciate. That country booms when the franc is low. Its people suffer greatly when it is high.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
19. Labor unions do more than labor laws, this would lead me to believe
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 12:55 AM
Jul 2015

They don't have a minimum wage because the unions mean they don't need one.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
21. About that "high gun ownership"...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:11 AM
Jul 2015

that's partly because every Swiss male of military age is issues a military weapon which is kept at home (in locked storage, in a disassembled state with the receiver/barrel separate); ammunition is not issued and is kept in a central arsenal.

Other Swiss gun laws:

Heavy machine guns and automatic weapons are banned, as are silencers
In most cases the buyer needs a weapon acquisition permit, issued by the cantonal police
This will be refused if the applicant has a criminal record, an addiction or a psychiatric problem
A special permit is needed to carry a gun in public - and is usually issued only to people who work in security, once they have passed theoretical and practical exams


For more see here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21379912

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
22. No, automatic weapons are not banned
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:14 AM
Jul 2015

Not sure where you got that idea.

You need a weapons acquisition permit for a handgun or an automatic weapon; in the US you need a background check for a handgun and a Federal license for an automatic weapon. (Though automatic weapons are so expensive and impractical that they aren't much of an actual issue in either country.)

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
23. Private ownership of full-auto weapons is banned in Switzerland.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:17 AM
Jul 2015

Military weapons purchased by ex-militia members after their term of service are converted to semi-auto.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/switzerland.php

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
24. Banned for non-servicemembers?
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:28 AM
Jul 2015

They're still in houses. I'm not terribly concerned either way because they're just not misused in either country.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
25. Members of the militia do not own their issued weapons.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:30 AM
Jul 2015

And they're required to store them disassembled and aren't issued ammunition.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
26. But they can buy ammunition privately
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 01:33 AM
Jul 2015

They still have military weapons in their houses and one eighth our homicide rate (though a higher suicide rate than us, high even by European standards, and I have no doubt the gun prevalence has a lot to do with that).

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
27. No, they can't
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 02:03 AM
Jul 2015

buying ammunition for weapons in Switzerland is strictly controlled, you can only purchase ammunition for guns you own legally (which does not include military-issue weapons). Theoretically they can but they'd need to own another weapon in 5.56mm.

Crunchy Frog

(26,594 posts)
29. Private health insurance regulated to the hilt by the government
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 03:17 AM
Jul 2015

in a way that American insurance companies would never tolerate.

And I would love to see how DU's gun brigade would react to a proposal to move to Swiss style firearm policies and regulations. I don't believe that the Swiss treat them as personal playthings the way Americans do.

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
30. A key quote in the OP that highlights the tradeoff between social and economic progressivism
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:05 AM
Jul 2015

"White people, over and over again, have been shown to be much more willing to support government benefits for other white people than for nonwhite people."

We had economic progressivism in America (as long as white people were helping whites) till America started diversifying and minorities started getting rights and then suddenly economic progressivism lost popularity because the white people didn't want to give benefits to the blacks and other minorities.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
31. I've always felt education was the only real way forward.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 06:43 AM
Jul 2015

I wouldn't be surprised if they tested higher than us across the board in education.

I find that being able to understand problems goes a long way towards resolving them.

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