Teen brothers accused of killing parents, 3 siblings in Oklahoma massacre

[sarisataka]

BROKEN ARROW, Okla., July 24 (UPI) -- Two teenage brothers were taken into custody by Oklahoma authorities Thursday and accused of murdering their parents and three young siblings -- as well as severely wounding a fourth.

The attacks occurred at the family's home in the town of Broken Arrow, a suburb of Tulsa, late Wednesday night, officials said. About 30 minutes before midnight, the brothers allegedly stabbed all five family members to death. Authorities say a fourth sibling, a 13-year-old girl, sustained serious injuries.

A fifth sibling, a two-year-old girl, was not harmed in the attack.

Police responded to the home after a 911 dispatcher received a phone call from the home, during which no one spoke. Investigators believe the emergency call was made by the injured girl. When officers arrived, they supposedly found Robert Bever, 18, and his 16-year-old brother hiding in woods behind the house.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/07/24/Teen-brothers-accused-of-killing-parents-3-siblings-in-Oklahoma-massacre/7881437718637/

Why is it that for such a developed country we have so much violence? Whether in public, private or police custody; by gun, knife or strangulation; we kill each other more than similar nations.

I do not expect a one answer to fit all, but I see that as the greater problem than any subset of murder victims.

For all of the victims-

[Eleanors38]

1. ^^^

[Jamastiene]

2. Because we allow the extreme right to still have power.

That is why it is happening. As long as we allow them to still have power, they will continue to keep a subset of white males in a constant state of anger about the rest of us finally getting some rights. They cannot stand the thought of others having rights. They seem to think the very existence of the GLBT community and women who think for ourselves and other races, most especially AAs, somehow goes against their rights. The only way they want us around is if they can bully us and keep us "in our places." If we have equal rights, they can no longer bully us. Bullying us has been how they "prove their manhood" for ages now. They feel impotent without the ability to get by with the bullying.

Even if these kids hadn't fully bought into that mentality yet, you can bet they had already started thinking along those lines. In the future, all of these shootings and other mass murders will be seen for what they are, the age of the "angry white male" who cannot stand the thought of the rest of us having equal rights.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Science has not invented a face-palm strong enough the measure the magnitude of this post.

[Humanist_Activist]

6. What. The. Fuck? Seriously, WTF?

I mean it,

[sarisataka]

8. I fail to see

How angry-white-male-ism would lead to teens killing their family

[TBF]

12. Then you are not connecting all the

societal dots. See my post below. It's not just white males though - it's a culture in which violence is revered.

[BeanMusical]

40. +1

[TBF]

11. I do think that is the base of it -

and it is further magnified by white males (and sometimes other males) keeping everyone in line with violence. Violence is revered in this country - from corporal punishment to romanticizing the military. In comparison there are many countries in this world where corporal punishment isn't allowed - http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/ - but in the US children are subjected to violence from the time they are very small. As they get older they are exposed to things like hunting, the military, etc. Churches - especially fundamentalists - affirm this need for control over others (with threats of an eternity in hell if you do not submit to their teachings). And as you say, white males do lead the charge with this although there is a lot of complicity coming from others who back this approach. IMO, it starts from an early age and is very ingrained - with teachers, parents, churches all pushing this mindset. It also has the effect of oppressing people and we see who that benefits (the white males who own most of the assets in our society).

[Humanist_Activist]

18. OK, how the fuck, and I mean this sincerely, does ANY of this have to do with what happened?

Do we even know if the boys were subjected to corporal punishment?

You are creating motives out of thin air. It could, just as easily, have been some other instability at the home, mental illness, etc. At this point we are just speculating.

[TBF]

41. We are talking about society in general

and that is where these folks grow up - surrounded by a culture that glorifies violence. I'm sorry if you can't (or won't) see that.

[Humanist_Activist]

62. You would need to provide evidence for that assertion, most evidence I've seen shows a negative...

correlation between, for example, youth violence and violent media.

I would imagine, especially in cases such as this, family dynamics, insular culture, and other factors would play a greater role.

[TBF]

63. I wasn't talking about violent media -

I spoke about a society that glamorizes violence in multiple ways. You don't need a study for that - all you have to do is open your eyes.

[Humanist_Activist]

64. See, that right there makes my common sense tingle, and feel that it is wrong.

"Open your eyes" is a useless catchphrase for this situation.

Also, for a society that glorifies violence, we are becoming less violent over time, how do you explain that?

[TBF]

74. OK, violence over time -

I actually found some theories as to why violent crime is dropping (and overall has dropped significantly since colonial times) on wikipedia of all places:

After World War II, crime rates increased in the United States, peaking from the 1970s to the early 1990s. Violent crime nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since the 1990s, however, crime in the United States has declined steeply. Several theories have been proposed to explain this decline:

-The number of police officers increased considerably in the 1990s.
-On September 16, 1994, President Bill Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act into law. Under the act, over $30 billion in federal aid was spent over a six-year period to improve state and local law enforcement, prisons and crime prevention programs.[9] Proponents of the law, including the President, touted it as a lead contributor to the sharp drop in crime which occurred throughout the 1990s, while critics have dismissed it as an unprecedented federal boondoggle.
-The prison population has been expanded since the mid-1970s.
- Starting in the mid-1980s, the crack cocaine market grew rapidly before declining again a decade later. Some authors have pointed towards the link between violent crimes and crack use.
-One hypothesis suggests a causal link between legalized abortion and the drop in crime during the 1990s.
-Changing demographics of an aging population has been cited for the drop in overall crime.
-Another hypothesis suggests reduced lead exposure as the cause; Scholar Mark A.R. Kleiman writes: "Given the decrease in lead exposure among children since the 1980s and the estimated effects of lead on crime, reduced lead exposure could easily explain a very large proportion—certainly more than half—of the crime decrease of the 1994-2004 period. A careful statistical study relating local changes in lead exposure to local crime rates estimates the fraction of the crime decline due to lead reduction as greater than 90 percent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States


I dunno (especially about the lead exposure - who knows??). Perhaps statistically we see drops in violent crime, but I am still aware that there is violence all around us. Perhaps this dichotomy is due to a fear-based society in which we seem to always be at war and we see things like these mass shootings with nothing being done to stop them (seemingly). I am not an advocate for all out gun control so don't misunderstand (like Bernie Sanders I don't have a problem with people going hunting - I know most decent hunters eat what they kill over the winter). But I am also unwilling to buy into the "individual loner" theory because this has been an awful lot of individual loners shooting up schools, theaters, etc.

So, what is your take on this? It seems like you are arguing for the "loner" theory, but you haven't really said to I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on causation.

[Humanist_Activist]

75. I don't dispute any of that. But please be aware that our culture is largely....

Global, people watch many of the same, movies, tv shows and play many of the same video games. Yet there are wide disparities in levels of violence in these various societies.

In fact I would say that poverty, lack of a safety net, accessibility to lethal weapons, and disparities in education access would have a far more negative affect over levels of.criminal violence than a mainsteam culture that "glorifies violence". The only exception would be subcultures that are explicitly geared towards propogating violence, radical Muslims, white supremacists, other extremists, etc.

[moonandsixpence.]

52. Why are you getting so upset at that possibility?

I wouldn't even drag the religious connection into this, although there certainly seems to be those who are influenced by it (or at least justify their actions by quoting the Bible)?

I never go to overtly violent movies. I think they are sick. To derive pleasure or entertainment from seeing people assaulted is the hallmark of someone who harbors violent fantasies, even if they have never acted them out. Like all the people who enjoy violent video games. I saw one once and it was evil, IMO.

[Humanist_Activist]

61. And what does that side note have to do about what happened? They were apparently part of a very...

insular religious culture, I doubt violent movies and video games have anything to do with it, in addition, there's a negative correlation between exposure(and enjoyment) of such modes of entertainment and violence.

[Jamastiene]

19. Exactly.

Violence is actually seen as less "offensive" than sex even in our movies. It is so ingrained in our culture that is is seen as normal, really. The entire power structure is based on an built on violence. Anytime something happens that someone doesn't like, violence is the first instinct. For most of us, we can control our impulses. Those who have been made to feel entitled have never been forced to learn to control their impulses. That is why they see mass murder as an option. It is happening too frequently nowadays, far too frequently.

Of course, there are a lot of other factors too. We rarely see an AA guy go on a mass murdering rampage. We rarely see women doing it. We rarely see anyone but these right wing "angry white guys" doing it. They seem to have the least amount of impulse control AND own the most weapons. The change needs to come in the entire mentality in that group. It would lessen the instances of these horrors if they were simply taught even a rudimentary basis of impulse control.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. "The change needs to come in the entire mentality in that group."

Is "that group" the new, polite way of saying, "those people"?

"I'm not racist but you know how that group is."

[Jamastiene]

26. If you want to coddle a small subset of people who think mass murder is A-ok,

go right ahead. Some of us disagree with you on that. They are a danger to society, obviously. They have proved it time and again, by doing everything from blowing up a federal building, shooting classrooms full of children, murdering their own families, you name it. If you want to coddle them, go right on ahead. I don't understand why you would want to, though. Seems an odd mentality to want to "protect."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Weird.

The RWers say the exact same thing about Muslims.

[BeanMusical]

35. That's a hell of a non sequitur.

Are you calling that long time poster a racist and a RWer? Because it sure looks like it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Then you don't know what it looks like.

[BeanMusical]

39. What an odd reply.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Just because you misconstrue my comments doesn't mean that is what they mean.

[BeanMusical]

45. "The RWers say the exact same thing about Muslims."

So what did you mean to mean by making that analogy?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. The RWers do, in fact, say the exact same thing about Muslims.

I'm not sure what the controversy is.

[Jamastiene]

54. The difference being that I am talking about confirmed mass murderers

like Timothy McVeigh, Dylan Roof, Eric Rudolph, and countless others who have that mentality, people who HAVE committed mass murder. You are making a huge leap there. Why you would defend mass murderers is what is truly weird, especially when the ones I am talking about used mass murder and extreme violence in what amounted to basically a temper tantrum because they weren't getting their way.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. They say things like that, as well.

And I'm sure, if asked, they would be happy to provide a list of names of confirmed killers along with the unqualified addendum, "and countless others." And then they would ask you why you are defending them.

[BeanMusical]

65. Lol!

What a great example of bad faith, continue to pretend that you are not calling that long time poster a RWer and a racist (racist about White people?) that sure is making you look clever.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

66. "long time poster" is a meaningless point when judging the facticity of an assertion.

Do RWers make similar statements about Muslims?

[BeanMusical]

69. I'm sure that some RWers and gun nuts make similar statements as the one in your subject line.

Not that I'm calling you one or the other, of course.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

73. You're claiming RWers would point out logical fallacies so I must avoid that to not be like them.

[-none]

25. ^^^What Jamastiene said.^^^

We glorify violence. From movies such as "Inglorious Bastards", to showing a person using a chain saw on a victim hanging from the ceiling in a prime time TV cop show, complete with showing the two parts of the body afterwards.
Even the aftermath of a classroom of dead 7 year olds wasn't enough for us to take any meaningful action to remedy our psychotic fascination with violence.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. May I ask you a question?

What is your opinion of the young African American male who picks up a gun and drives by an inner city playground and fires into a crowd? Or drives by a house that he thinks someone he has beef with lives, but ends up shooting a child instead.

I would think since you've clearly analyzed what makes mass murderers tick, you've also analyzed what causes senseless drive by shootings.....with no coddling of course.

[BeanMusical]

68. May I ask you a question?

What is your opinion about the MRA? You know, the hate group composed entirely of whinny misogynistic limp dicks?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

71. I think MRAs are generally total assholes

There may be a few who identify as such who are just ignorant of where the majority of those groups stand. They should get with the program.

Now you can answer my question, even if I wasn't asking you.

[haikugal]

27. Hell vibrators make these guys feel impotent... nt

[blm]

29. Gun culture, bullying pushed and protected by GOP to manipulate their rabid reactionary voting base

adds to the fetishization of violence.

I get your point.

[SecularMotion]

3. Murder, Types of Weapons Used

Firearms - 69.3%
Knives - 12.5%

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_7_murder_types_of_weapons_used_percent_distribution_by_region_2012.xls

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. 30.7% of the people apparently don't matter.

[sarisataka]

7. So in twitterspeak

#onlygundeathsmatter

?

[SecularMotion]

9. Violent deaths suck and so does the NRA for trying to take the focus off the gun problem.

[sarisataka]

20. Violence does suck

and so does the NRA, but is it necessary to ignore other deaths as a 'distraction'?

Also as gun violence is a subset of violent crime, it stands to reason that reducing general violence will also reduce gun violence.

[Eleanors38]

47. And the NRA caused the Boston Bombings.

Why don't you at least try to focus on what these (and other) deaths mean or are caused by?

[SecularMotion]

48. Death means the end of life

and violent deaths are sometimes caused by people prone to violence, many of whom should not own firearms or other lethal weapons.

[Eleanors38]

50. Deep philosophy, there.

[sunnystarr]

21. Bet you won't find many deaths by accidental stabbing (nt)

[Eleanors38]

49. 62 under-15yoa kids killed by fun accidents in last reporting period. Whole country.

[sarisataka]

59. Accidental deaths

Per CDC

2013, United States
Unintentional Cut/pierce Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W25-W29,W45,W46


Number of
Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
134 316,128,839 0.04 0.04

2013, United States
Unintentional Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W32-W34


Number of
Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
505 316,128,839 0.16 0.16

The overwhelming instrument of accidental death is the ubiquitous automobile.

[Agschmid]

10. Guns enable killing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. And what gun laws would have prevented this tragedy?

[Agschmid]

14. A law prohibiting guns.

That's pretty much how I feel at this point. Not a popular opinion but it's mine.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. And how would that have prevented this tragedy?

[Agschmid]

23. Okay I admit...

A wee bit of thread confusion here... Haha whoops.

Ban knives!

[Kali]

34. I love you.

[Agschmid]

42. You know sometimes you just get so outraged!

Haha!

[Eleanors38]

51. If you are on the right side of things, outrage covers all kinds of emotions.

[sarisataka]

22. Yes they do

as do knives, ropes, baseball bats...

So are we going to chase symptoms and keep banning items or do we want to treat the worst symptom but focus on treating the disease?

[BeanMusical]

37. You forgot to mention the Car analogy cliché.

[Eleanors38]

53. Yes, the mass murder-by-car in Austin, 2014...

Three years ago the #1 weapon for murder here was "knife or sharp edged instrument." But Austin is on the cutting edge of innovation.

[Scootaloo]

57. "the brothers allegedly stabbed all five family members to death"

Just in case you didn't read the article before posting.

[Agschmid]

58. Thank you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. I actually feel kinda bad for you with everyone piling on.

[OKNancy]

16. People who knew them - homeschooled, never saw the kids (7 of them) playing

Dad worked from home, they moved around a lot.
FWIW, nice big house in a good neighborhood.
I realize no one looks good in a mug shot, but the 18 year old looks damaged.

I bet there was some bad shit going on in that house.

[ghostsinthemachine]

30. Why?

It's the movies. Bloody gory violence is what sells. even at the movies if you are trying to avoid violence they still show you violent movie trailers.

And the TV. During sporting events that kids are watching, they play violent trailers for violent movies without restriction. The Television is non stop violence. (the show Criminal Minds is on 24 hours a day).

And the Video games.

it is the sporting events that we play that are violent and the games we watch are violent. Hear the backlash against regulating for concussions? No America wants to see blood. the more the better.

The vernacular we use is violent. We killed em! Kicked their ass yes we did!

Non stop violence. Kids go to karate lessons, not music lessons.

There are no peace heroes in this country, only war heroes, real and imagined (Johnny five planes I am talking to you!). The peace heroes we did have (Ghandi, MLK, John Lennon) all met violent ends at the hands of violence peddlers.

Not in this case but in most it is the easy access to guns.

[Liberal_in_LA]

31. tragic!

[DVRacer]

32. Near my house!

http://www.newson6.com/story/29626942/report-survivor-13-identified-brothers-as-killers-in-broken-arrow-quintuple-murders

I live 5 miles away it was so horrific to hear. The oldest boy had to have some major issues and what heard is the story from the 13 year old paints a fundamentalist extreme right wing home. They were not allowed to associate with neighbors and home schooled in deep faith based curriculum that was very anti-government.

[udbcrzy2]

77. Wow - officers are disturbed by his demeanor

The surviving 13-year-old will make a good witness.

from your link:

Bever was booked on five first-degree murder complaints and one count of aggravated domestic assault and battery with a deadly weapon. In his mugshot, Bever appears to have blood splatters and mud on his face, and BAPD Cpl. Leon Calhoun said that many of the officers who have been involved in the investigation are disturbed by his demeanor.

"He has a smirk on his face …I don't know if there's any remorse whatsoever based on that picture," Calhoun said of Robert Bever's first mugshot. A second mugshot was taken once he was transferred to Tulsa County.

[malaise]

33. I read that they lived in an upper middle class neighborhood, kids were home schooled

parents were big time fundies, kids were not allowed to play with anyone - looks like the brothers snapped. Horrific indeed!

[TBF]

44. And who knows how the heck they were treated

by those parents.

This comment: "I don't know that we as rational people can understand how you could have a motive to kill the people that raised you and your siblings," Broken Arrow, Okla., Police Cpl. Leon Calhoun said.

Well, I'll explain it to you Cpl. Calhoun. In a society in which parents can isolate their kids, abuse them, and see violence glorified in many ways around them, this kind of motive can crop up. It's not the norm and I do believe most parents do the best they can (or were taught). But growing up in a poor, rural area of the midwest I saw an incredible amount of domestic violence and some of it was pretty brutal - to the extent that the only rational thought is wondering how someone DIDN'T get killed given the way they were abused on a daily basis (including both children and their mothers).

[malaise]

55. Parents can hide a lot of abuse by home schooling kids

Thoughtful post.

[misterhighwasted]

38. A Reclusive family, Father is a grad of Oral Roberts U. Kids were rarely seen outside

http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/robert-bever-broken-arrow-oklahoma-stabbing-stabbed-parents-april-david-killed-dead-siblings-brothers-sisters-ages-charges-photos-mugshot/

Explains why they hid in the woods behind the house, rather than run farther away. What survival skills did they have in the world outside their front door.

How sad.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Boys intended to kill more; ammunition delivery to the house the next day may be connected

Officials say they received a full confession from the 18-year-old suspect and he showed no remorse for the stabbing death of his family members.

Police say the suspect explained that the murders were just the beginning of a string of killings planned outside of the family.

Officials aren't sure if a list of possible victims exist or the extent of plans the suspect had.

http://www.ktul.com/story/29619276/police-release-names-of-parents-suspect-in-broken-arrow-murders

FOX23 found out investigators are looking into a shipment that was supposed to be delivered to the home Thursday.

Sources said the shipment contained boxes of ammunition. Police said they can't comment on it because of the investigation. They also said if the younger brother didn't call 911 the teens could have had more time before being arrested.

Police said either the 12- or 7-year-old brother of the accused teens made the 911 call that led police to their home.

"He did save the life of his 13-year-old sister and his two-year-old sister and possibly many others after that," said Corporal Leon Calhoun with Broken Arrow police.

- See more at: http://www.fox23.com/news/news/local/five-dead-broken-arrow-homicide/nm5LJ/#sthash.4G8ekpcN.dpuf

Could be coincidence about the ammunition.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

72. Well there goes that narrative

Maybe the were getting a shipment of Ginsus too

[RKP5637]

76. Violence is a big money maker in the American culture. Violence, anger and hatefulness

are played out endlessly in the American culture. Much of it is learned behavior in a rut of violence and people act out.

[Warpy]

78. What we know

This was a closed family. Kids stayed together outside, never played with neighbors, were home schooled. Neighbors only saw the family, never interacted. Man of the house was a cipher at work, did his job without socializing.

Similar cases have happened in similar families, there have been a couple of them here in NM since I've lived here.

It's always so sad when it happens because it seems so preventable.

Even frontier children with full loads of chores weren't raised in isolation.

[DashOneBravo]

79. Agreed

Such a horrible act.

Rest in peace

[Person 2713]

80. They were never allowed out to play or socialize and kept in the house. Now they will be locked up

for life

Austin Mahan grew up just down the street from the home, and says he grew up with the seven children.

"All the kids are homeschooled, and they all stay in the house,” Mahan said. “So they don't get their social needs met. I'm just not surprised."
Lack of socialization , home schooling , religious rigors do not obviously lead to murder but could have been part of the twist
Also the mom locked the a/c . Someone was stealing freon. So they could have been high too
Don't know what kind of high freon gives but people do it I know