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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould citizens always be submissive to law enforcement officers?
It seems many people think citizens should always be submissive to police officers.
To me, this premise is based on a slippery slope.
In the Sandra Bland case, she refused to put out her cigarette when the LEO asked her to put it out. It was her right as a citizen to refuse. The cop apparently took offense to this and the situation escalated, to the detriment of Ms. Bland. She refused to be submissive. In the end, it cost her her life.
What happens if a cop stops a citizen and requests/demands/orders said citizen to drop to his or her knees and give the cop a blow job? Should the citizen be submissive so the cop does not take offense and escalate the situation? We already know cops lie/falsify evidence/edit recordings. Are we better off dropping to our knees and giving the cop a blow job, or should we take a chance and not be submissive? Where does being submissive with police officers end?
Should the public always be submissive to cops?
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randys1
(16,286 posts)the answer is yes if you are not white.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I was stopped for a traffic violation recently and the angry vibes from the officer made me very humble in talking to him. He seemed to have fuse that was ready to go off. It's not professional on their part and it shouldn't be that way, but until the culture changes I think it's best to not provoke them.
jakedsname
(14 posts)I'm always treated badly and pulled over for the most trivial things. I must look like some kind of liberal troublemaker to them. In 2002 I was stopped outside of Lawton, Oklahoma. They brought in a drug sniffing dog and treated me like a terrorist. They found nothing on me. I had a sticker on my rear bumper which showed an American flap and read "These Colors Don't Run - The World. After they were through with me, the cop who originally pulled me over looked at me with disgust and said, "You're wrong about that. They most certainly do run the world."
It was like he was just hoping I would talk back to him. I wisely didn't though.
Chemisse
(30,817 posts)Many of these cops are flying on their own power, and just itching to have a chance to use it. I never argue or do anything else to set them off.
Pride goeth before the fall.
Better to kiss up than ruin your life...end your life.
raccoon
(31,119 posts)
haikugal
(6,476 posts)sitting there wondering if they teach it at the academy. It just isn't natural.
The answer to the question is you do what you have to do in order to stay alive. I'm not sure we have rights anymore, any of us. Is it wrong, of course it's wrong!
I can't fight back anymore...there was a day I'd leave marks and do damage to anyone who beat or abused me, or tried. I'm not strong and fit anymore. I can't even run away, not that that seems to work. How to stay alive?!
The police act like they're in a war zone and we're the enemy...there is something very wrong!
Chemisse
(30,817 posts)She was nothing but rude and bullying. I figured that was the only way she could feel like she was in control, as a woman (not that I was sympathetic - I was seething).
haikugal
(6,476 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I kick myself every time my last words are thank you after giving me a ticket....ugh. And for sure I'd put out the cigarette if told to. I'd think the officer wouldn't want second hand smoke or something. I'd light up as soon as the officer pulled away after we were done and for sure I'd get myself out of the car if directed to. No question. I just always have obeyed authority and can't stop even if I wanted too. Deeply ingrained.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Takket
(21,625 posts)because they literally asked this exact same question on their show today lol
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We had a serial rapist cop in my town who did things like that to women who cooperated because of the fear for their own safety. He usually preyed on Native and Black women.
msongs
(67,441 posts)Maybe to test products for humamn consumption. That maybe.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)in each individual situation. If a cop is professional, it's a good idea to be cooperative.
If a cop crosses that professional line? Then the fear factor has to play a part. We just got a graphic video example of what can happen when someone stands up for herself. While I'm glad that this seems to have spread outrage and demand for change beyond the most at-risk populations, I'm pissed as hell that Bland's refusal to be submissive cost her life.
In the example you mention...I can see women, in the moment, submitting to abuse out of fear. It seems like that situation must be worse than one individual officer, though, when they are still afraid to report it after the fact. Did that officer ever face charges?
I'm a white grandma, complete with gray hair and glasses. My first instinct is NEVER submission. While I haven't had many traffic stops, or any other confrontations with law enforcement, I don't think I'm a primary target. And, since I know my first instinct to express myself bluntly could change that, I don't. I can't say that I wouldn't have, in Bland's situation, said something very similar, though.
I can't speak for people who ARE targets; what do you suggest?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)His wife was a corrections officer and Stood by his side the entire time. I was disgusted with her as a fellow woman, a black woman. It was shamefull. Him, he had this shit eatimg grin that made me want to rip his face off. Like he did nothing wrong. Said they wanted him, just like Cosby.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I hope he has to stay there.
And yes, his wife's betrayal of her fellow women is disgusting, to say the least.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)over. In this case it was not about color but about power.
Today I live on a reservation with its own police force. I live with my family who are POC and the only contact I have with the police is if I call them because someone I do not know is hanging around. They have always treated me respectfully but I don't think that is necessarily about color either. Native children are taught to respect their elders and that is how they see me. An elder. They have even taken the time to tell me not to open my door to strangers, etc.
That said some of that police force got fired because they were watching porn while on the job so I am not so sure how they treat the younger members of the tribe. Hopefully not like the girl in your post.
As to being submissive we teach our children to be respectful just as all POC do. It is the only option when the other choice is your life.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)After reading the OP's question, my first thought was something that most women think about at some time or another...if you were confronted by a rapist with a weapon, would you be cooperative or would you fight back? I've heard it discussed over the years and there never was a good answer, except to say do whatever you have to to stay alive. A threatening cop makes that answer all the more tedious.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know what they did and why, and I totally get it.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)It's all situational based on your abilities, their weapon, etc.
The only one hard rule I teach my students in self defense classes is DO NOT allow an attacker to move you to a secondary crime scene- the statistics show if that happens you are almost certain to end up dead. For example if you leave a club and a man with a gun tells you to get into a car- your best chance of survival is resisting/fleeing right then and there. He has the least control of the situation then- once your in his car or his chosen destination you have much less chance of making it out alive.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I always think I'd try to dig my keys into they eyes and run the hell aways screaming 'fire!' I know if I scream rape nobody will come out. But if they think there is a fire, maybe.
elleng
(131,107 posts)but I'm a white woman, now senior. I've always been 'business-like.'
Don't know what I would do if subjected to the heavy-handedness that Ms. Bland encountered.
840high
(17,196 posts)stopped I was polite. Handed my driver's license without question. Better this way.
elleng
(131,107 posts)but this (Sandra Bland) cop went into something like 'you sound annoyed,' then 'put your cigarette out,' and it went on from there. He was trying to provoke her, and ended up pulling her out of the car.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)because some of them are trying to provoke you to escalate the situation and arrest you. It's very wrong but until the culture of our law enforcement changes your number one duty is self preservation until you can take them to court or some other action after the fact.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)I always say yes sir, or mam. I always have my license ready in hand and insurance I.D. if necessary. I never speak in a confrontational tone. I am polite. Yeah, I'm white, but it works for everyone.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)People of color, even when respectful and non-confrontational, are often bullied and abused.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)That this "often" occurs? Sure, we've all seen the stories in the news of shootings, but "often bullied and abused" when respectful isn't something I've seen reports of. And was does "often" even mean? It sounds like you are saying more often than not, and I find that hard to believe.
Asking if we should be "submissive" is a loaded question. Nobody should be "submissive" but you certainly should be respectful. There are definitely bad actors in the police field, and I grew up with one of them, but even the good ones are in danger of being shot during a routine traffic stop so all are probably on edge. I'm a white guy and was pulled over for speeding a few weeks ago in Virginia. I was polite to the cop (state patrol) and careful not to do anything that would make him antsy. My wallet was in my backpack so when he got to the car I told him I needed to reach into my backpack to get my wallet. He said ok and moved to a position where he could see what I was doing. He certainly wasn't friendly and ticketed me but he wasn't overly aggressive.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)You'll find it's pretty damn common. If the only place you're getting your news is from 'the news', of course you're not hearing about it.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)That didn't answer my question at all. Am I supposed to poll random "black people" in my neighborhood? Otherwise, where should I listen to "black people" to get my news on this issue? And if the guy I talk to in the neighborhood was harassed does that men harassment happens "often"? I get the sense that these statements are just hyperbole.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Black people are killed/harassed by police WAY more than white people.
If you know that by now I don't hold out much hope for you.
Solomon
(12,319 posts)I'm a 60 year old black male. I have never had an encounter with a white cop (and I've had many in my lifetime) in which the white cop was not nasty, rude and threatening. Never! And each time I felt like less than a man for groveling and being polite and submissive. I've always felt that one day I'm not going to be able to hold my tongue and.... And let me tell you, it takes weeks to get over these encounters - kicking yourself every night trying to sleep because you felt less than a person for not sticking up for yourself.
Every time I hear a white person say all you have to do is be polite and follow instructions I want to stick a screwdriver in my ear!
Yup. This, in multiples.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)of a person for knowing when to hold yourself together. Look, the guy has weapons, backup, the power to bring down a shitstorm. Why do you feel "less than a person" for figuring that you and the people who love you are better off if you live (figuratively OR literally) to fight another day? Your personhood is more than your ability to beat an ace of clubs with a four of hearts, which is about what any of us has in a confrontation with police.
Solomon
(12,319 posts)Who are you to tell me what I should be feeling from being harassed , humiliated and abused by some snot nised kid who couldn't carry my jockstrap just because he's white and has a badge. You just don't fucking get it. I'm a fucking American, i'm a lawyer, and I know what my fucking rights are in this country, yet I should accept being demeaned for the sake of some asshole's ego because he has the right to kill me because my tail light just went out. You just don't fucking get it.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Just be polite and submissive to the police state and I, myself, will be OK. It's those people that talk back who get into trouble, and it's their own fault.
As a white guy, I am polite and professional in my dealings with the police. But I have seen first-hand how the police deal with my son-in-law, who is black, and it doesn't work for him.
tblue37
(65,487 posts)(About how Germans let themselve be ruled by the Nazis.)
EXCERPT:
“What no one seemed to notice,” said a colleague of mine, a philologist, “was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.
“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.
“This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
“You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time.”
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I get the sense that these statements are just hyperbole...."
Odd that-- I'm getting that same precise sense in regards to your sincerity.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)What if you were constantly being stopped for no good reason? At what point do you get irritated and become just the tiniest bit less cooperative? Maybe having a bad day already? And then they come down on you like a ton of bricks because that's what they really wanted, it's what they live for. Quit blaming the victim, it's disgusting.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You appear to be confusing submissiveness with simply being polite... that being the first of three inaccuracies (or ubnsupported allegations if your self-validation requires it) in your post.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)or does not fully understand the risks and bad shit that WILL go down.
And resisting a simple fucking traffic ticket is just asinine. It's called pleading not guilty and arguing your case to a judge, and hiring a competent lawyer to accompany you always helps. And you will probably lose the case but get by with a reduced judgement without points on your driver's record.
840high
(17,196 posts)H2O Man
(73,605 posts)rather negative flavor. An intelligent person can be respectful -- even to one who doesn't deserve respect -- and respond in a manner that is less likely to result in escalation of tensions, and eventual gross violence.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Sometimes even that isn't enough.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)If the officer wants a confrontation, he can make one happen.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Bad cops know how to push people's buttons to get them to react and create an excuse for aggressive response.
H2O Man
(73,605 posts)Yet, in such cases, there is nothing that a person can do that will prevent the attack.
Still, polite and respectful is far more likely to work to one's benefit, than either confrontational or submissive.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It's no guarantee, though, and that's all I was saying.
MH1
(17,600 posts)I think in 99% of cases, at least if you are white, if you are really respectful then the need to be "submissive" never enters into it. But probably, you should be, even if you think you are being wronged, if you are sure you are really dealing with a police officer and not a scammer posing as one.
As to how that works if you're black ... well start by being respectful and you improve your chances. I think there are racist cops and if you had the bad luck to be the one they fucked with today, it may not matter how respectful you are. But if you start out mouthing off you definitely won't improve your outcome.
That said, what happened to Sandra Bland, and Eric Garner, and many of the other names we've come too familiar with lately, is absolutely WRONG. The citizen should be respectful to the cop but the cop should remain a professional public servant No. Matter. What. So if cop pulls me over and I'm already having a bad day and let my ass show a bit, it's the cop's JOB to handle the situation and not escalate something piddly into something major. It's his JOB.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)No win situation really.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)You don't win a fight with a cop on the side of a road. You survive it and argue in court.
You let me know how successful you've been arguing with the armed, amped up cop.
I think in lieu of fight back or argue, we should outfit our vehicles with recording devices as they are doing in other countries. You take your dash cam to court and put that video against hat the cop says happened.
Discreet, vehicle based surveillance is the wave of the future. Kickstart that company and make billions.
pnwmom
(108,994 posts)and spitting in the cop's face.
I don't think you should do either.
I think the cop in Sandra Bland's arrest did everything wrong. But when I was stopped without any reason, I just went along with everything, even though I knew I was within my rights to not cooperate. (The cop wanted to look inside our u-haul trailer, which we'd rented for an interstate move. He opened it up and a mop and a vacuum cleaner fell on him and he closed it right up again.)
So, while I fervently support Sandra's right to resist and talk back -- if I were her mom, I would have begged her not to.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'm not sure that Bland's responses to the police stopping her ever rose to the level of back-talk.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Take the ticket and go to court to fight it out. When I was younger I was stopped by the police a number of times. Each of those times was for a valid reason. Each time I was polite and cooperative. Doing so usually got me a warning, verbal or written and probably got me out of a reckless driving charge.
As for your example involving a sexual act I find it extreme and unrealistic.
In the end it isn't a question that has a definitive answer, it is something to be decided on a case by case, depending on what the penalties you are facing vs what the cop is demanding.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)You make a big error in your post-
"In the Sandra Bland case, she refused to put out her cigarette when the LEO asked her to put it out. It was her right as a citizen to refuse."
Incorrect. She, like you, probably was also ignorant of the law and as such chose the wrong course of action.
For the period of time when you are detained during the conduct of a traffic stop you have to comply with any reasonable and proper requests of the police. Keep your hands in view, don't leave the car or leave the car depending on what the officer wants, turn off the car, etc.
Not smoking during that period is one of those reasonable instructions. Smoking makes it harder for an officer to watch your hands and ensure you are not making a dangerous movement, a lit cigarette is a hazard to the person and officer should an arrest have to be made as well as a fire hazard, and like any other worker in any other job a cop shouldn't have to be exposed to your nasty secondhand smoke on the job.
Now, of course if we go down your absurd example of the cops demanding a blow job that is a whole different matter. Such an order would not be proper, reasonable or legal and should be resisted. But that is nowhere close to what happened here, so it really has no bearing on this case.
So the answer is know the law, do what the law requires, do not tolerate or submit to anything that exceeds the laws requirements.
Kingofalldems
(38,475 posts)else--a fishing expedition. If the cop was just going to give a warning he could have done so at the outset with a verbal warning. And you know it.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)She broke the law and was pulled over. Agree that what she did is not different than jaywalking but that doesn't mean that technically she didn't break the law.
Kingofalldems
(38,475 posts)TeddyR
(2,493 posts)And apologies, I misread your post.
Reter
(2,188 posts)I'd pull over people for not signaling all the time. One of my biggest pet peeves are constant lane changers and drivers who don't signal when changing lanes. Bothers me much more than talking on a cell while driving.
840high
(17,196 posts)think we have signals for? Many times I have barely missed the car that did that.
this pull over was a little cheap. She was getting out of his way. Technically, yeah, she should have signaled, but on a local road with a cop car up your butt, I think it would not be unusual to just change lanes and let him by. You see this all the time and how many people signal? It seems a pissy technicality in this case.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And whether you like it or not, she was baited into doing so, and rationalizing her detention as just or within the law illustrates an astounding sense of privilege...
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)People take them more seriously, and the paper trail gives an officers superiors a report on his activities for the day.
If they are targeting a specific stretch of road the paper trail shows what work was done to bring traffic patterns more into compliance, and if the targeting was driven by citizen complaints they have something to show that they took action.
My old departments policy was all warnings were written, for documentation reasons and to ensure the message went across properly. The Sheriffs belief was a written warning had more of an effect on people than a verbal.
Kingofalldems
(38,475 posts)the warning over.
840high
(17,196 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)I completely disagree. I'd like to see a legal cite for that. Is this supported by case law, or is this just a hunch? If this is actually supported by the law, its ridiculous. I haven't smoked for a a few years now, but I seriously question whether they actually have that authority, and reject any notion that they should.
That's something to consider when taking the job, I reckon. Its not our job as citizens to make LEO job easy. Our rights make LEO job hard. Too bad. It comes with the territory. Don't like it, don't take the job. On the other hand, it IS LEO responsibility to act within the law and respect our rights, and LEO limitations. I reject, notions of the opposite on both counts.
Is 'I'm going to arrest you, put out your cig please" so much to ask of a cop to say, at the point he decides to make an arrest?
Can cops taking crime reports in peoples houses demand they put out cigs too? Hes just as 'on the job' there as he is in a traffic situation, right?
The cop can keep his/her head out of the car he pulled over, and get fresh air just fine.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I'll dig up links when I am not on the phone.
For the period when you are detained for a stop the police can give you basic instructions in the name of your and their safety and of allowing ten process to be completed that you must follow.
Keep your hands where I can see them.
Step out of the vehicle and stand over here out of traffic.
Stay in your vehicle.
Turn off the ignition and hand me you keys.
If you have a concealed carry permit they can require you hand over your pistol.
Don't handle objects inside the vehicle.
Don't go into the console or glove box or react under the seat while stopped.
Don't make phone calls and text while the stop is in process and the officer is interacting with you.
Turn down the stereo
All are valid reasonable commands. So is refraining from smoking.
And yes, I have been in a persons house on a domestic violence investigation and told him to not smoke while I was interviewing him.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder. I care not one whit for 'reasonable'.
I want to see case law.
If leo have that authority, they definitely shouldn't.
Oh, I don't doubt that you've buffaloed people into it.
I simply doubt its legal. On what charge do you arrest someone who refuses to put a cig out?
You had to be a big city cop. Your brand of pushy doesn't sell out here in the sticks. One county over from where I live, they had a Chicago cop come out and get a job as sherrif. He had that sort of 'pushy' about him, and he operated that way. One day someone decided to stop doing business with him. And then as time went on, so did others. After a point, it became difficult enough for him that he left. Someone more reasonable took his place.
Its quite a different thing when you have to live amongst AND depend on the people you police, it tends to reshape obtuse attitudes about 'civilians' and their rights to a rather amazing degree. Cops out here aren't so quick to pull a dick move on the grocer, or the guy who they want to work on their vehicle, or the people that teach their kids, or the people that work on their air conditioning.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I was a deputy in rural NC, and we only worked the areas outside city limits for most purposes. On a department so small most patrol shifts had 4 deputies on duty per shift (on paper there were 5 per shift, but you more often than not had one person out for injury, vacation, training, court etc.) covering over around 600 square miles.
If a person refused to put out the cigarette it would depend on circumstances and how I read the person. I personally and very sensitive to smoke, and would explain that. If they became hostile and argumentative I may place them in cuffs for my safety for the remainder of the interview, especially if it was looking like it was going to end in an arrest anyway. In the case I mentioned above a person who was just accused by his wife of striking her, who then becomes argumentative when asked to extinguish a cigarette, can be detained in cuffs for the purposes of officer safety. See Graham v. Connor, Michigan v. Summers, Muehler v. Mena and mnay other cases on the subject.
beevul
(12,194 posts)See, I have trouble with the idea that you need permission to search absent probable cause, but think its ok to dictate a no smoking zone over the same piece of property that isn't yours to search or mess with.
And like I asked, in the case of an auto, when all you have is a turn signal violation, what do you charge someone with when they tell you no, to putting out a cig? Or do you sidestep the issue by lawfully moving them to the back of your car?
I guess things are different in NC. Folks out where I live, are acutely aware of such shenanigans, legal or not, and don't take kindly to them. In fact, they get downright inhospitable.
And if you ASKED nicely, you'd probably get your way, if it wasn't a dick move at the end of a stop. Note, "asking nicely" is on the opposite end of the scale from Demanding, both in style and in substance.
But most obviously, if you whipped a u turn, and got so close on someones ass that you can't see their license plate, and don't pull them over until they've been intimidated into making a mistake which gives you justification,
its pretty obvious that 'asking nicely' isn't what you have in mind at all.
I often wish people would just brake check you guys, when you choose to do that instead of getting close enough to read the plate and then backing off to a reasonable distance like reasonable cops do, while your info comes in on the plate.
Even cops are at fault when they rear end someone.
I never did a traffic stop over something like a turn signal unless it was a person known to me as a problem who I wanted to know what they were up to (like a known repeat burglar driving in an area with recent burglaries) or I suspected a DUI. Our sheriff had 2 deputies assigned full time for traffic enforcement and didn't want the rest of us bothering with small violations because we didn't have enough manpower and the overtime to pay us for traffic court was expensive.
Only three things guaranteed a traffic stop from me- DUI, something totally wreckless or that I couldn't just ignore because it would look bad, or not properly having your infant/toddler/small child restrained in the proper seats. The DUI and the child safety I never gave a warning on- everything else almost always got a warning unless you were a total ass about it or I discovered more during the stop.
What's allowed for a search during a stop and what lawful instructions are allowed during a stop are related, but not the same issue. When you are stopped the officer has detained or seized you for a short period of time. During this time you are in that officers custody, and he/she can dictate where you sit or stand, what actions you are allowed to do or not do, etc. That includes handcuffing you if they wish for the duration of the stop. They can instruct you to keep your hands on the steering wheel or trunk of the car with nothing in them if they wish- and that would preclude smoking, so an instruction not to smoke is less restrictive than those allowable instructions that would both prevent smoking and other movement of hands.
Not allowing smoking is articulatable as a reasonable step to prevent injury or make the job of the officer conducting the stop easier or safer. It's an instruction that causes no harm to the person detained and does not cause of violation of any rights.
FWIW, while an officer needs either probable cause or consent to search your entire vehicle, they can order you to exit the vehicle and do a search of your person if they have reasonable suspicion (a lower standard than probable cause) you could possible have any sort of weapon, and may be permitted to search the passenger compartment of the vehicle on the same standard. It's known as a Terry Frisk or Terry Stop.
beevul
(12,194 posts)I'm pretty sure that any cop who trys this crap - the 'safety' argument as justification for telling someone in their own vehicle not to smoke, immediately after giving the same person a pen which is capable of doing far more damage than a cig, would be laughed at by a judge.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Smoking is not needed as part of the procedure.
I've been in front of judges and DA's and defense attorneys many, many times explaining my actions. I could defend an instruction to not smoke while detained any day of the week and win it.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Irrelevant.
Its necessity doesn't change it from an instrument potentially more dangerous than a cig, to a warm fuzzy pillow.
I will ask you again, hoping that you'll answer the question this time :
You pull me over, we go through the motions, you ask me essentially after the fact at the end of the stop, to put out a cig after you've handed me a potentially deadly instrument, and I refuse.
What are you going to charge me with, for refusing?
Do you resort to 'contempt of cop'? Do you then get around my refusal by placing me in your car where I can not smoke?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I will probably tell you to exit the vehicle and keep your hands on the trunk for the duration.
beevul
(12,194 posts)You don't actually have the authority to 'order' someone to put out their cig. Its not a chargeable offense on its own.
You have the authority to sidestep the issue and remove a person from a position where they can smoke, to a position where they can not.
Two very different things, in the eyes of most people.
You'd do this at the end of the stop, when the person is already signing the warning?
And if the person exits the car, cig in mouth, and follows your instructions to keep their hands on the car, then what?
You can go on and on about what you have the 'authority' to do, to your hearts content.
What you can't do, is make any case that its ethical or moral, and that's the thing that's going to be the end of the relative 'freedom' that currently allows misuse of such authority.
aquamarina
(1,865 posts)I just did a quick wiki search on these three cases and not a one mentioned anything about a cop's right to order a suspect to extinguish a cigarette. Not a one. Also, as a LEO, I would hope that you are aware that different jurisdictions have different rules regarding what is and is not allowed at traffic stops. So while you claim you have/had the right to make suspects put out their cigarettes this is certainly not the case in every jurisdiction.
Graham v. Connor 490 U.S. 386 (1989) was a United States Supreme Court case where the Court determined that an objective reasonableness standard should apply to a civilian's claim that law enforcement officials used excessive force in the course of making an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of his person.
Michigan v. Summers, 452 U.S. 692 (1981), was a 6–3 decision by the United States Supreme Court which held for Fourth Amendment purposes, a warrant to search for contraband founded on probable cause implicitly carries with it the limited authority to detain the occupants of the premises while a proper search is conducted.
Muehler v. Mena, 544 U.S. 93 (2005), was a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court, which held that the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution allows detention of an occupant in handcuffs while a search is being conducted, and that it does not require officers to have an independent reasonable suspicion before questioning a subject about their immigration status.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)I'm not arguing whether the request is legal or right or wrong, just that state laws can vary.
beevul
(12,194 posts)In any case, I believe very strongly, this is a power leo should not have.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)I would have put out my cigarette
I believe that is a routine request
a blow job? not so much
but that cop - like the McKinney pool cop, he escalated a situation without much thought
Uncle Joe
(58,417 posts)Is the police officer a racist?
Is the police officer suffering from PTSD or a very near like condition?
Was the officer correct in pulling you over in the first place?
Is the officer wearing a body camera?
Under every scenario it's alway wiser to be at the very least courteous to the officer, it will stand you in better stead should you be falsely arrested, abused or killed, should you or your family (if you don't survive) get your day in court.
Don't let your emotions get the best of you, no matter how you feel and you may get away with just a warning or a ticket.
Thanks for the thread, higherarkies.
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)It is always best to say as little as possible, as well. Be compliant and be courteous but don't give more information than requested. The less that the authorities have on tape of YOU saying or doing anything, the less THEY have to use against you.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)There are way too many bad cops in too many awful ways to always follow their orders.
But he wasn't trying to rape her in this instance, so why bring this up?
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Seems a perfectly germane response to the question asked.
No, he was not trying to rape her. He was trying to humiliate her and abuse her and instead he killed her.
Reter
(2,188 posts)It could easily have been another officer who killed her in there.
840high
(17,196 posts)
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)And no. When a officer of the peace/police officer is obviously out of control, never.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)I have one, do you?
840high
(17,196 posts)have common sense and don't look for trouble.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)The news here reported the same thing this morning. She didn't have to put out her cigarette when she was in her car but she did have to get out of the car.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)to order you out of the car at a routine traffic stop:
Pennsylvania v. Mimms (1977): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_v._Mimms
Maryland v. Wilson (1997): https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1268.ZO.html
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)
jonno99
(2,620 posts)advice - if you have the money - which MOST of us here don't.
Take a look at Lee Lee's comments in this thread...
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The Supreme Court has already answered this one. The police have the right to have you exit your car. If you fail to do so and the officer had the intention to arrest you, the failure to exit ALONE can lead to a resisting arrest charge. If the officer did not intend to arrest you, he can do so after your refusal because you are refusing a lawful order (and if he didn't intend to arrest you, you refuse the order, he states his intent to arrest, and you STILL refuse to get out of the car, you can be charged with BOTH crimes).
Pennsylvania v. Mimms has been the law of the land since the 1970's.
Yes, I have an attorney.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Dewey, Cheatem and Howe?
Because that advice is just factually incorrect.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)weirdness.
curlyred
(1,879 posts)Reter
(2,188 posts)KentuckyWoman
(6,692 posts)Chris Rock kills it every time.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)bad cops. The best way is at the ballot box to rid cities and towns of the folks who put authorities in power who protect and even, in some cases are the evil perps.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)On edit I'd like to say I find this post suspect. Six weeks, only 16 posts, never rec'd a post. Normally those things in and of themselves don't send up flags, but you posted this before 5 PST and didn't bother to respond to a single reply.
Things that make you go hmmmm...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We are all subservient to the law, and submit to its authority. That is what is meant by "social contract" or "consent of the governed".
But those cops are supposed to be deserving of the respect that "the governed" hold for the law, and that same law must hold them accountable for misuse of their authority.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Unless they're telling me to do something that is just not right IMO, I don't see any percentage in being confrontational with them, not that I've ever been a position where I would have wanted to.
I'm not saying that she deserved the treatment she got even a little bit, so don't even go there, but being uncooperative and argumentative........up to the point of swearing and sophomoric name calling.........certainly didn't do anything to improve her situation.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)What I'm about to say should not be taken in the context of "victim blaming' or the like...That being said...
My belief, is that a subset of the human species has an inate and possibly subconscious instinctive 'intermediate to strong' predatory urge. I firmly believe that while you'll run into that sort of behavior anywhere...the tire shop, the local store, walmart, etc, that positions of authority attract folks with those inate desires and behaviors. Its something that I don't believe can be turned off in individuals that have it.
Right or wrong, that's a conclusion I came to a long time ago, based on both my own interactions and the interactions of others, with modern day law enforcement. My grandfather was a MP in the service, then a police officer, then a detective, and retired a detective around 1980. He never exhibited this 'predatory' sort of behavior, and I believe strongly that its because he was a cop for decades before the war on drugs became the nexus for all things LEO.
Right or wrong, I believe that law enforcement is attractive to these predatory types. Very attractive. If I'm right about that, then the fact is, we are policed by many many individuals with predatory instinct. Though I can't prove it to be true, I believe it to be true, and I proceed as if it were the absolute widely known universal constant.
What is the most common sense rule one can have when one is subject to close proximity to predators on a semi-frequent to regular basis?
Do not be perceived as prey in any way shape size or form.
That's my rule number 1 when it comes to law enforcement. That doesn't mean you have to cower or be submissive. One can be firm and assertive without cowering or being submissive, and without being confrontational or provocative. On very rare occasions where rule number 1 fails, that's the tack I take.
I reckon that answers the OP.
Beyond that, I have an approach I've refined over the years, with the above in mind. The 'guts' of my approach, which I think of as a 'system of denial', are as follows:
First and most important: Deny them seeing you by blending in in plain sight. 'Blend in with the herd'. I can not stress enough or overstate how important this single point is.
Do not in any way acknowledge that they are around, and never ever turn your neck to look back at a cop that's just passed you. That's just 1 of many behaviors they're trained to look for. They're trained to observe the behavior of people. Surf the net. Learn what they're trained to look for. Your perceived reaction to their presence can very easily get you the wrong kind of attention. Understand how LEO works.
The above is far more important and critical than the below, but the below are still important:
Deny them probable cause to interact with you on a nonvoluntary basis, to the point where in order to pull you over or interact with you at all, they have to break the rules.
Deny them searching your house/vehicle if they ask to. Manage the issue so that if they're going to search, that its done illegally.
In a nutshell, understand as much as possible how they work, how they're trained, the things they look for, the rules they have to follow, and deny them an 'in' into interacting with you at every stage, to the greatest extent that you can.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)and never, ever answer the question, "Do you know what you did wrong back there?" or its corollary, "Do you know how fast you were going back there?"
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)1) do you know why I pulled you over?
The answer to this question is always "No."
2) do you know how fast you were going?
The answer to this question is always "Yes".
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)Do not in any way acknowledge that they are around, and never ever turn your neck to look back at a cop that's just passed you. That's just 1 of many behaviors they're trained to look for. They're trained to observe the behavior of people. Surf the net. Learn what they're trained to look for. Your perceived reaction to their presence can very easily get you the wrong kind of attention. Understand how LEO works.
this is one of my own golden rules.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)on a routine traffic stop.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)There is no upside whatsoever to not obeying a cop.
HOWEVER, the penalty for NOT obeying a cop's every command should NOT be death.
KentuckyWoman
(6,692 posts)You pick a fight with the cops you should expect to end up in jail at best and dead at worst.
The fight here is not whether Sandra should have complied. The fight here is she should have gotten her life saving meds once she chose to become a guest of the local slammer.
And to qualify.... I have a scar on my noggin and a right eye that doesn't behave thanks to a cop who didn't like the fact I was sitting out in the middle of the commons with my friends and refused to stand up and leave. It was after Kent State so I knew I could end up dead. It was a cause worth dying for.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)If they arnt, then I treat them like garbage because they deserve it.
When they get uppity I just say "tell it to the judge when I take this to court".
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)If you refuse comply with such an order they can forcibly remove you.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)From the moment you are pulled over you are detained and in the officers custody until the stop has concluded.
During that time the officer can instruct you to stay in the car, get out and stand on the shoulder out of traffic, or even place you in the back of his/her car all at the officers discretion.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)has anything he can tack on to the OMG, you didn't use your turn light, citation. Hand the ticket to the person and walk away.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)In this case that means after he has explained the warning ticket to her, had her sign, and given her a copy.
Since that had not happened yet, the stop was not over and she was still detained.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)Quote Justice Ginsburg:
In this case, the 'tasks tied to the traffic infraction' 'reasonably should have been completed" already, at this point.
The trooper is in the wrong.
He had not explained the warning and had her sign.
It wasn't over, and his asking why she was usually upset is well within the allowable conduct of the stop.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)If it's not over just say clearly, " its not over until you sign the ticket" and then move on to the next traffic stop, please.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)There were 2 US Supreme Court decisions on this issue:
Pennsylvania v. Mimms (1977): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_v._Mimms
Maryland v. Wilson (1997): https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1268.ZO.html
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)ruin her life, knew she would sit in jail for days, and probably either drove her to suicide or did something to her that led to her death.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)that 'police officer violated the womans (sp) civil rights' based on what legal precedent?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Another young, first year police officers- first kill.
Probably not his first 'traffic stop' troll that ended up in life ruining felony charges.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)profiling to me. It looked like he was trying to write tickets for whatever he could. The stop was pretty lame, one of those "Doesn't he have any REAL bad guys to arrest," kind of things. But as cheap as it was, I'm not sure how he would have known who was in the car based on the dashcam.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)changed lanes. sometimes 2 cars work an area together intending to traffic stop as many as possible.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)based on the dash cam that the stop was pretty opportunistic. He had just made another stop and happened behind this woman who moved to get out of his way without signaling. Like I said, cheap. His tone with her was pretty much the same as it was for the previous stop but he got annoyed by the cigarette and maybe her irritation and started down the road of very bad judgment. That's the way it looked to me, anyway.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)outside my kitchen window. lapel cams should be required of all police and open access to public.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)unfounded allegations. You have absolutely zero evidence of any racial profiling or of him violating her rights. This second point has already been explained on several posts of this subject - his actions in orderering her out of the car and to extinguish her cigarette are all perfectly legal according to the Supreme Court: (Pennsylvania v. Mimms US (1977); Maryland v. Wilson US (1997). Whether you choose to agree with it or not, what the Supreme Court decides IS the law of the land. His actions were in accord with the Supreme Court's holdings, therefore clearly not violative of her rights.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Except he never actually DID 'order' her to put out the cig:
The first is just how rapidly Encinia escalated this confrontation. The officer never gives Bland a direct order to extinguish the cigarette — his exact words to her are “you mind putting out your cigarette, please, if you don’t mind?” So, even if Encinia did have the lawful authority to demand that she put out the cigarette, Bland reasonably could have viewed this as a request that she could refuse. When Bland did refuse, Encinia immediately orders her out of the car without taking the intermediate step of actually ordering her to put out the cigarette. This rapid escalation extended the length of the stop without a clear justification for doing so.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027001103
Any argument of 'officer safety' seems to have gone out the window once he handed her the pen (sharp pointed dangerous object) he carries in the left front pocket of his uniform, and that's exactly what he did, BEFORE requesting she snuff the cig.
How can the 'officer safety' justification be argued here, with that in mind?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Doesn't mean that he's making a 'request' for you to do it - merely a less confrontational way of ordering you to do something. You seem to think that this is somehow greatly significant. It isn't.
beevul
(12,194 posts)It should be.
Its BS like this case that leads to me staying home on the holidays, and I'm just an average white guy.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)court systems "should work" doesn't mirror reality. There's nothing very mysterious about how to survive the typical police (traffic) encounter - in fact there are two excellent videos posted on this thread that explore this in great detail. Every driver should see them and take to heart the recommendations they make on how to behave during a traffic stop. It would save lots of people tons of aggravation and woe.
RobinA
(9,894 posts)female here. I do what they say up to the point where they want to search the car, at which point I would suggest they get a warrant. That has never happened. I have been stopped a few times and that hypermacho cop-attitude enrages me, but I keep a lid on it. I tell them and give them what they want but am not submissive, I would say I am compliant. I volunteer nothing and I keep sarcasm out of my voice, which can be a struggle. I have a friend whose husband is a police chief and I have eaten at his dinner table many times and truly like him. When some authority junkie stops me, I repeat, "It's an act, he sits down and eats with his family like a normal human and his kids love him." Over and over again until he's on his way. I don't argue about the ticket or do anything to prolong the encounter as I can resist the provocative swagger only so long before I am in danger of becoming mouthy.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)and respect is a two-way street.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)I think she's dead because she was black, period.
I've taken police beatings for popping off at the mouth bigtime, and profanely to officers. The only reason I'm alive is because I'm white, imho. After my worst beatdown, they took me to their ancient jail, pounding me in the elevator all the way. I was totally bloodied and beaten, I had big knots on my head from the billy clubs and huge bruises up my arms from super tight handcuffs.
I felt I had to get them back so I stuffed my socks in the sink, turned the water on, washed off as much blood as I could and passed out unconscious. When I woke up, the water was a foot deep everywhere. The jail was completely flooded. The flood damage was so bad that human excrement was draining through the ceiling into the judge's chambers and dripping down onto his law books and all his files. They were really angry and the beatings resumed, the other inmates were understandably angry with me too.
The local news still mentions me as the, "unidentified inmate," who caused 6.2 million dollars worth of damage to the jail. They blame me, not by name, for the County having to build a new, 30$ million jail.
They ratcheted up the charges on me, from a misdemeanor to multiple felonies carrying life. Eventually the charges were dropped after a long struggle. They now term the flooding, an, "accident."
I don't think I ever would have made it out alive if I had been black. The police want total subservience and the populace to live on their knees before them. Sandra Bland died from being a black motorist who didn't want to put her cigarette out.
Also, I'm making the jump of accusing the police and jailers of MURDER. (Sorry caps.) The tampered and sketchy video...the mealy-mouthed explanations from Texas law enforcement...the media attempts to smear Ms. Bland and cloud the issue. It all adds up to one thing to me. Ms. Bland was murdered and the groundwork is being laid to get this dirty cop off the hook.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)That will have to be in a movie at some time. What part of Texas, might I ask?
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)Sorry for the late reply just got off work.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)(I was still bruised and beat up bad), the judge looked at me and asked: "Would you like to object to the way you have been treated? Have you been coerced in any way?"
I'd thought about making a protest about the beating but instead I told him they hit like little girls and this was nothing compared to what my Dad could dish out. I think that's what got my charges dropped, not protesting the beating.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Otherwise you might end up dead and unable to represent yourself in court against the murderers...er...officers.
Phentex
(16,334 posts)or record what was happening. I think I might keep my hands in the air the whole time.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Cops are rage-triggered by such things as, "I know my rights".
jonno99
(2,620 posts)not be "submissive" to his requests? He's just doing his job.
Give a cop a bj though? Uh, I'm going with a "non-violent 'NO' " on that one.
The whole "put out the cigarette" thing bugs me though. Why have to be told to put out the cig? I like a smoke-free environment when I'm working. I don't think it was an unreasonable expectation.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Why did he have to go into instant roid-rage with her over a few snark replies? Is that the way law enforcement handles society now? All or nothing? Comply or die?
All the cop had to do was ignore her snark, write the ticket and be on his way. Now he will be up on charges, lose his job and all because he could not handle an intelligent black women telling him he was over-reacting.
So not only did he do JUST THAT, he made sure she was completely humiliated in public by treating her like an escaped fugitive.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)RobinA
(9,894 posts)he over-reacted, I think he had a choice to make and he made the wrong choice. The cigarette could be a weapon, so asking to have it put out was not unreasonable. I do think that in his position you have to weigh when and how and IF to exercise your authority, and sometimes it's just better to abstain. He already knew she was irritated, HE was irritated by the cig, but he still should have asked himself what he was prepared to do if she refused to put out the cig, and was it going to be worth it.
It seems that the police are taught how to escalate a situation to get what they want, but not how to de-escalate so everyone can live happily ever after.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Some cops (for whatever reason) escalate situations sometimes to the point of being out of control, THEN the cop gets to pick their option as which way to 'disable' their now suspect (but before was just another innocent civilian).
beevul
(12,194 posts)That argument falls flat on its face.
He just finished handing her a ball point pen, which she attempted to use to sign the warning, which is far more dangerous as a weapon, than a cig.
What he did was a dick move power trip, that can not be justified under these circumstances if one looks at the timing of the events.
Rex
(65,616 posts)and is a one year rookie.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Constitutional literacy of Americans.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/
Ten Rules For Dealing With Police
BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters
Knowledge = Life
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They DO NOT advise being antagonistic toward cops.
But they do tell you how to exercise your rights effectively.
HFRN
(1,469 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 23, 2015, 05:25 PM - Edit history (5)
('Should citizens always be submissive to law enforcement officers?'---> No, but they should intelligently process that interaction - there is a difference between that, and submission)
1) you get lit up, pull over as soon as you can safely do so - put on your turn signal to indicate that's what you're doing
2) once you pull over, turn on your dome light if it's dark - dont be seen reaching around the vehicle (I do violate the rule of reaching into my back pocket, before the cop walks up, to get my license registration and insurance card to hand to the officer - ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THOSE 3 ITEMS ARE, AND KEEP THEM UP TO DATE!
3) have hands on steering wheel, window down, engine turned off (or keys taken out, put on dash)
4) have sunglasses off
5) do not reach for anything, without asking the cop first what you intend to do
6) most important, do not reach for anything while making eye contact, you might get the cop's gun pointed at you if you do
I'm a clean cut white male, and I always do this. The issues above are about showing a cop that you arent going to run, or pull a weapon, something they dont know, and have to estimate for themselves. That they can handle the stop without getting 'ampted up'
it goes without saying, that turning on the dome light presumes you dont carry illegal substances in your car, and that you dont drive while intoxicated. nobody is obligated to follow this advice, but if you do, your odds of getting an 'ampted up' cop go way down, and can in some circumstances, legitimately turn a ticket into a warning, as you're showing the cop that you do know and care about the safety issues of the circumstance (although, dont count on it or get angry if that isnt the result)
it's not about being submissive - it's about understanding, and cooperating with, the process that is occurring, that the cop has to process.
remember, you respect the uniform, not the person - and if you don't they take it personally, that the person isn't worth the respect of the uniform, and that's where a lot of cops get the chip on the shoulder
again, all of the above presumes that you (and any passengers) are not guilty of anything more than a minor traffic infraction, and that you KNOW there is nothing illegal in the car. if this isn't the case then look on the net for ways to politely but firmly invoke your rights (but try to make it the case (no serious illegal actions/possessions), to simplify your life)
EDIT: if, after all of this, the cop asked to search my car, would I let them do that? Well, that's never happened, and I think having the dome light on drastically reduces the probability of being asked, but if I were, I probably would politely decline. But again, the above actions suggest to the cop that I have no fear of a search (and I don't). The cops read that in how they size you up. Reading other comments, I realize I should have mentioned that while polite, I remain very businesslike and do not volunteer anything other than what's mentioned above - I cooperate with the stop, but I dont eagerly give up any rights
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)to heart by motorists.
higherarkies
(34 posts)Thanks to all of you for your comments. You have provided a virtual smorgasboard of food for thought, and I appreciate it.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)When a 50,000 ton freighter is coming at your little sailboat. Forget what the NavRules say and get out of it's way. What is the point of being right if doing so makes you fish food?
We all have to decide Which hill we want to die on. Sometimes maybe it is the right thing not to take any shit. And sometimes it's far better to deal with pushing back at another place and time. Alone with a Cop on the side of the road is not the same as sitting in a civilian review board office or a court room.
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)My kids are whiter than white but I don't trust the police as far as I can throw them.
Years ago, as a young white teenager, I got smacked with a nightstick by an older, white Country Trooper in Westchester. His explanation was that it would show me who was in charge and who was not. Lesson learned.
At the least there should be intensive psychological screening before any man or woman is handed a Glock and told to "be careful out there." Of course, that would cost too much and who in their right mind would want to be a cop anyway?
Iggo
(47,565 posts)
BeyondGeography
(39,379 posts)She gave an honest, and vulgarity-free, response to his comment that she seemed irritated (inappropriate question, which she nevertheless answered honestly and persuasively). All this child-cop could respond was, "are you finished?" (juvenile) then he asks her to put her cigarette out (he had no legal right to demand that) and things escalated, just as the cop wanted them to.
So the question in this case is about more than surviving by being "submissive." By the time the cigarette question was asked, Ms. Bland had been repeatedly baited by this cop.
From your OP, we obviously don't disagree. I just hope a world of hurt comes down on Brian Encinia for what he did here. It was against protocol, it was unsupported by the law and it led to the death of a human being.
maxsolomon
(33,400 posts)She ASKED why she had to. Pretty reasonable from an irritated person.
BeyondGeography
(39,379 posts)Much more together in her responses I would venture than most people would be under the circumstances, and spot-on about her rights. Thank goodness for the dash cam. Of course, at the end of the day, it only makes the whole thing harder to swallow.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Our take-away point for them is ... Be Respectful in the face of Law Enforcement disrespect ... do whatever you have to do (within reason) to get home safely ... and live to file the police report (with my organization standing behind you.
The most difficult part of these discussions is that our recommendations, run counter to everything that they identify with ... being respectful in the face of disrespect is seen as weakness ... and, doing stuff on command for no reason other than the Officer's assholery, e.g., get out of the car, answering a bunch of questions, turn out pockets, walk a line, sit on the curb, is a sign of weakness.
It is difficult to have ask them to hide their "Manhood" lamp in order to realize adulthood.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)If you win at all, you do it in court.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)Nobody wants to grovel before an asshole. However, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
realFedUp
(25,053 posts)
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)cloudythescribbler
(2,586 posts)
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)I found it best just to kiss their ass for the most part and go on.
Response to higherarkies (Original post)
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