Chattanooga Shooter Researched Religious Justification For Violence: Official

[clarice]

][link:http://abcnews.go.com/US/chattanooga-shooting-fbi-recovers-gunmans-disturbing-diary/story?id=32558310|

[Agnosticsherbet]

1. So this may have been another suicide by cop

of a man who had mental problems and access to guns.

[clarice]

2. sorry, i don't get the "suicide by cop" reference. nt

[Agnosticsherbet]

4. Suicide by Cop occurs when people want to die but do not want to kill themselves.

So they put themselves in a position where a police officer is forced to shoot them.
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-by-cop.html

This as exacerbated by a desire to find some way of saving his fucking soul through religouslly condoned murder.

[clarice]

12. Thanks for the heads up. nt

[6chars]

3. no, it was murder

i am willing to expose myself to criticism by saying that abdulazeez is not the victim here.

there is a little wordplay going on. we can't know his motive to the extent that we know the motive of, say, john dillinger whose motive was to rob a bank for the money. but it seems pretty clear his motive was somewhere in the range of killing u.s. military personnel for the islamist cause. it also seems pretty clear he received terrorist training. just because we don't know whether this act was at the direction of someone at isis, or his own idea from reading islamist terrorist material online is unclear, and exactly why he chose to serve the islamist terrorist cause in this way may be unclear, but it's not like his motive was he hated the color of the marine uniforms, or he wanted to test that his trigger worked.

[Agnosticsherbet]

6. Suicide by cop speaks to motive. It does not make him a victim.

If the information released so far is correct, he did not kill for the "Islamist Cause." He appears to have killed because he wanted to save his soul after living a life that he considered to be sinful, probably because he could not deal with his own failures.

[6chars]

9. cause

most movements do not see killing others as a way to save your soul. but islamic terrorists (not to say Islam) and charles manson do, and they didn't find helter skelter on his cellphone.

[Yo_Mama]

34. Yes, but in Islam martyrdom in jihad is the great ticket to heaven

And jihad is fighting for Islam. Martyrdom gets forgiveness for all sins.

So it is just a matter of semantics - if he was seeking martrydom, it had to be martyrdom for Allah to qualify.

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. So you're assuming that just by being a Muslim it must mean he's a terrorist?

I prefer evidence rather than profiling.

So far, all the evidence I've heard shows that the guy was deperssed becuse he had fucked his life away, and was looking for a way out, not that he was working for foreign organizatons.

[Yo_Mama]

38. There is no doubt that this was a religiously motivated deed.

He was depressed, he was failing at living the life Allah commanded, and dying in combat for Allah earned him forgiveness for all his sins, and even being wounded in combat for Allah does in at least one verse.

That doesn't mean that other Muslims have to do or are commanded to do the same - believing and doing good deeds is the path to paradise in the Koran. Martyrdom is the path to a glorious afterlife. Most Muslims would interpret a large part of "jihad" as the struggle you fight with yourself to turn away from evil.

If you cannot live a right life, dying a right death in the cause of Allah gets you mercy and glory.

It's in the Koran. And the blog with two posts and the text form the "witness" part of martyrdom.

I wouldn't call this terrorism. I would call it religiously-induced mass murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid
So yes, he did this because he was Muslim, but also because he was a despairing Muslim. Suicide is a great sin in Islam; dying in combat for the cause of the ummah is not.

There's a whole lot of hellfire in the Koran, and if you are depressed and struggling with your own behavior, I suppose it is relatively easy to focus on verses like:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
[4.75] And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper.
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4.77] Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold your hands, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; but when fighting is prescribed for them, lo! a party of them fear men as they ought to have feared Allah, or (even) with a greater fear, and say: Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us? Wherefore didst Thou not grant us a delay to a near end? Say: The provision of this world is short, and the hereafter is better for him who guards (against evil); and you shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
[9.112] They who turn (to Allah), who serve (Him), who praise (Him), who fast, who bow down, who prostrate themselves, who enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, and who keep the limits of Allah; and give good news to the believers.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=874756

61.2] O you who believe! why do you say that which you do not do?
[61.3] It is most hateful to Allah that you should say that which you do not do.
[61.4] Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
...
[61.10] O you who believe! shall I lead you to a merchandise which may deliver you from a painful chastisement?
[61.11] You shall believe in Allah and H,is Apostle, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives; that is better for you, did you but know!
[61.12] He will forgive you your faults and cause you to enter into gardens, beneath which rivers flow, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetuity; that is the mighty achievement;
[61.13] And yet another (blessing) that you love: help from Allah and a victory near at hand; and give good news to the believers.

[Agnosticsherbet]

41. But beging motivated by religon does not mean it is terrorism.

Terrorism requires an intent to inspire terror in order to cause political change.

So far, the only thing he wanted was not to Jahannam.

I'll change my mind when investigators come to that conclusion.

[chenildieu]

42. i don't think anyone is saying that

Obviously most Muslims - the vast majority - are not terrorists.

But this man blogged a message that "life is short and bitter" and that people should beware of worldly (non-heavenly) attachments. Then he went online looking for God's permission to kill people. Then he went out and killed people.

Islam 101:

Like Christianity, Islam proclaims that life on earth is short, and a person should live only for God and keep a firm eye on earning a place in heaven.

Muslims, like Catholics, believe in judgment after death, followed by either eternal hellfire or eternal fleshly delights in jannah (heaven).

Muslims believe suicide is a great sin.

Fighting enemies of Islam (the "lesser jihad&quot and dying a martyr's death is a ticket to jannah no matter what one has done before. This is said several times in the Quran and (more importantly) it is a widespread belief among everyday Muslims today. The big dispute that separates a terrorist from an average Muslim is over this question: who constitutes an enemy of Islam deserving of jihad?

Many Muslims accept suicide if it accompanies martyrdom - for example, in the ubiquitous suicide bombings. (This is controversial - lots of Muslim leaders say suicide is never okay even if conducted for jihad. But lots of others, obviously, preach that the jihad part makes the suicide part totally okay.)

He was a self-professed religious man who looked to his God for permission to kill, and got it. To say his religion had nothing to do with his murders, one must bend over backward.

[Lee-Lee]

5. No, a suicide by cop would have sought armed cops

And pushed them to shoot him.

This guy sought out military targets.

[Wilms]

7. I wonder if he is in heaven, now.

[giftedgirl77]

8. Nothing in Islam would justify these acts, pushing this type

of meme is deplorable.

[clarice]

13. Horrible on who's part? nt

[LanternWaste]

14. There's enough horror available for many to use. Need not be merely one sharing it.

There's enough horror available for many to use. Need not be merely one sharing it.

[giftedgirl77]

18. The media & anyone who reposts the bullshit as facts.

[clarice]

19. Why do you think it's BS? I pulled the link from ABC news. nt

[giftedgirl77]

20. Because the religion of Islam doesn't promote violence

in this manner & it's disgusting to associate the two. I'm a fuckin atheist but I'm sick & tired of the first conclusion everyone jumps to is that is has to do with Islam. It's bigoted & nonsense purported by the media.

[Arugula Latte]

21. Why are people so adamant about NEVER blaming religion for ANYTHING?

Religion is based on mythology and zero evidence, therefore it is make-believe and delusion. People DO act on their delusions. There is a lot of sick, violent, twisted stuff in the Koran, just as in the Bible. These Abrahamic religions have indeed been responsible for many horrific acts over the centuries. We're still dealing with nutbag Christian Bible thumpers in this country who don't think gay people and women deserve equal rights. It's no coincidence that people who are not religious are far more likely to embrace equality.

Religion is a chosen belief system, just like Republicanism. It does NOT deserve a protective bubble around it even though that is what a lot of religions people want and demand, including many on DU. It is not "bigotry" to criticize belief systems. If that were the case, we'd ALL be bigots here on DU because we criticize Republicans.

[clarice]

23. Arugula...don't get big headed or anything...lol...

but you are rapidly becoming one of my favorite posters.

[Arugula Latte]

24. Aww, thanks!

I dig your posts too, man.

[clarice]

25. man-ette. lol

[giftedgirl77]

27. I have a problem when we condemn an entire group of

individual's instead of the few assholes that have decided to pervert the said religion into a cult.

[Skittles]

33. correct

[giftedgirl77]

40. I am not saying don't blame religion for anything.

As I've stated previously I'm an atheist but I think it's bullshit to lump the nutbags in with the sane & normal ones. You can't equate the cultists with general muslim faith.

[clarice]

22. With all due respect, and I will not post it here.....

but I suggest a thorough reading of the holy book in question.

[giftedgirl77]

26. With all due respect my boyfriend is Muslim & their faith

doesn't require the forcing of anything nor does it preach violence. The assholes that have taken the religion's name hostage to pervert it's name & views to try & get some twisted nonsense handled is no different than a cult.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

28. "No True Scotsman"

Uh huh.

[giftedgirl77]

29. WTF, does that even mean?

Does Muslim automatically equate evil or some shit?

[riderinthestorm]

30. Uhm respectfully suggest you google "no true Scotsman" theory and religion

it means that if a person declares them self a true believer of a religion then it becomes impossible to prove them otherwise despite another's "true" belief of how that religion SHOULD work.

Any Muslim who has taken the Shahada is a believer. So Dzohar Zharnaev, and Mohammed Atta, and Osama Bin Laden are as equally Muslim as your boyfriend.

There isn't a central authority dictating whose wrong or right in Islam.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

31. Religious people who try to disavow themselves from fundy nuts.....

.....I don't give passes for Muslims or Christians who try this tact. Do you give passes for one and not the other?

[clarice]

39. you obviously have not read the Koran. Case closed. nt

[giftedgirl77]

46. You obviously don't know any practing Muslim's &

would rather just be a bigot that pushes nasty memes. Not surprised, got to be scared of the scary Muslim's their all fuckin evil. Such fuckin stupid ignorant bullshit.

[clarice]

47. Whatever. nt

[chenildieu]

44. I get where you are coming from

because I have been there too.

But, have you studied Islam? If so, you know it forbids dating. It also forbids men from marrying people who aren't monotheists. So your boyfriend - by being your boyfriend - is very far outside the offical mainstream.

He may be part of a wonderful small-but-growing American Muslim movement: 3rd and 4th generation Americans who are still calling themselves Muslim while abandoning the fundamentalist and legalistic beliefs of their forebears. Which is great.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if his sisters claim the same social freedom he enjoys: Do they date? At all? Do they date outside the Muslim community? Do they date American atheists?

(If so, they are part of a real Islamic revolution which I hope will change the world. And if not... Well, you can figure out what that says about your BF and his religion and how it is practiced and whether it is just and who has power over whom.)

Best wishes.

(

[giftedgirl77]

49. Yes, his sister's date nor do they wear the traditional

clothing & they were all brought here very early in life from Pakistan. They are like Muslim lites, it's very much how many younger Muslims in this country act. Which is why I get frustrated when I see someone that is clearly Americanized but Muslim & they assume it's because of Islam the act was committed. By birth & baptism in many elder's eyes I will be forever catholic & there is nothing I can do to change that, I let them believe what they want. I know what I believe.

I don't understand why we automatically jump to these conclusions in this day & age I know many Muslim's that just don't follow the Koran to the T just like Christians don't follow the bible to a T.

[LiberalAndProud]

32. That is bullshit.

The holy books have been interpreted by many both for peaceful and for violent ends. Some of the most demonic acts have been inspired by religious devotion. To pretend otherwise is shameful and ignorant.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

43. Thousands of Islamic leaders throughout the world are promoting Jihad against the west

What you are saying is that the way YOU want to have Islam defined is as a religion of peace. Islam is not a centralized religion with standard dogma like the Catholic Church. The only way we can define Islam is through the way the various Mullahs and sects define it and the Koran. In many parts of the Islamic world, particularly in the areas where the Wahabi interpretation of Islam exists, it's anything but a religion of peace.

[clarice]

48. Excellent. nt

[clarice]

17. I'm sorry, what is deplorable? The act? or the fact that someone posted it? nt

[whatthehey]

36. Slightly, just a tad, more deplorable is that many Muslims disagree with you

and find plenty in Islam to justify these actions. Islamic terrorism rests on that very fact. They are not getting, often comfy middle class well educated, folks to blow themselves and others up out of poverty or desperation, but out of religious fervor. Islam is certainly not alone in this as terrorists have killed in my lifetime for Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, intra-Islamic, Christian and intra-Christian causes at the very least. It's just the most widespread and problematic at the moment.

Even here we see a lifelong Muslim deliberately researching justification for murder; but more telling is that, having committed the murders, he obviously found that justification quite readily. Just because your assessment of Islam disagrees (which, unless you happen to speak fluent Arabic, no Muslim would take very seriously as all translations of the Qur'an are automatically considered less than the word of God. Even if you do, it's highly unlikely you happen to be a recognized exponent of tafseer. I'm not either obviously) does not mean the justification is not there.

[Arugula Latte]

10. Religion -- promoting nonsense and lunacy for thousands of years.

[clarice]

11. bingo. nt

[LanternWaste]

15. Right up there with nationalism and economics.

Right up there with nationalism and economics.

[whatthehey]

37. Yep,that's why we have the Belgian Keynesian Society carving out a brutal regressive caliphate.

[chenildieu]

45. LOL zing!

[Go Vols]

16. +1