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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 06:05 AM Jul 2015

What is the future of Labor in the technologized west?

Open question.

There was an interesting NYT article a couple of years ago about textile factories that moved from the US to Mexico in the 1980s and 1990s, and are moving back to the US in the 2000s and 2010s. The one they profiled now produces twice as much yarn as it did before, but only uses 15% as many workers. Welcome the robot overlords.

This is pretty much a pattern throughout manufacturing: the US produces more and more manufactured goods, and uses fewer and fewer people to do it:



(NB: output has recovered since 2010; mfg employment hasn't. Also, that's 2000 dollars throughout.)

This is largely emulated throughout the west: very high manufacturing output, decreasing manufacturing employment, and vast development of the service sector. Most of DU disagrees with me about whether that can be changed (I think it can't, nor do I think returning to high manufacturing employment would "fix" things), but that's not really the argument I'm interested in at this point; this is the situation of our economy now.

I'm pretty sure basically all of DU agrees that labor needs a larger voice in the economy than it has now. 60 or 70 years ago, that voice was provided by strong labor unions in labor-intensive manufacturing industries at large corporations. But labor-intensive large corporate manufacturing is a decreasingly pivotal sector of the economy (see above) -- both because of the automation changes that have made manufacturing less important, and the changes in fulfillment techniques that leave industry much less vertically integrated than it was before (Ford and GM largely made their own parts in the 1950s, for instance). Simultaneously, rates of labor organization in the US have fallen precipitously, with the only remaining real bastion of organized labor public sector or semi-public sector services.

Unions worked very well when you had a few thousand people who worked in a large central factory that was responsible for the entire industrial process of a widget's being made. Direct pressure applied there could
1. rely on solidarity due to proximity, and
2. effectively stop production.

Modern fulfillment methods make that much less feasible. Not only does automation mean there are fewer workers to strike (and replacing 150 workers is a lot easier than replacing 1000); modern fulfillment means that each individual site is much less critical to the industrial product than it was 60 years ago (back then, if you didn't make the brake pads, Fords didn't roll off the line; now, if you don't make the brake pads a different shop can just as easily). Manufacturing labor is not the concentrated (physically and economically) force it was right after World War 2.

60 years ago, it took 75% of the adult population working full time to produce the stuff America wanted to buy; today it takes much much less (and frankly there are a ton of office jobs that could probably disappear with little impact on the economy right now). Labor has less of a voice for many reasons, but one of them is that the economy doesn't need nearly as much labor as it used to.

The sectors where unions still thrive are service sectors that more or less emulate that concentration: teachers, postal workers, electricians, longshoremen, etc.: industries where you need a large group of people to be in a specific place at a specific time doing a specific thing (IBEW's main selling point is that it can man literally any job no matter the size). But all of these are subject to technological displacement just like manufacturing workers were: robots can unload ships; 3D printers can create cable and connections that robots can run; drones can deliver mail. It would not surprise me if within 10 years half of primary and secondary instruction was by some form of MOOC, at which point people will start to question why we need to transport students to a single central building that needs to be heated and cooled, rather than sending tutors to where students are as needed.

There are some obvious changes that are going to happen one way or another: a lot fewer people are going to do work for employers for money than we're used to over the next several decades. The results of this could be awesome or horrifying. (Equivalently, the same percentage of the population could work, but on the order of 15 hours a week rather than 40.) There are several ways we could make this a good thing. For instance, a universal social dividend (or "minimum income&quot would mean people who didn't want to work wouldn't have to. Alternately, we could have funds that do some kind of grant system for socially useful work that isn't normally renumerated (child/elder care, community infrastructure building, etc.).

Are unions still the future of Labor? Europe seems to use them well, though union membership is declining there too. Germany also has a legal requirement that labor have a voice in corporate governance; I think that is probably the best thing we could do here at least in the short term.

TL;DR: because of technological changes, we face a drastic alteration in our relationship to "work" over the next few decades. What can and should Labor do to guide that process to the best (or least bad) possible outcome?

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What is the future of Labor in the technologized west? (Original Post) Recursion Jul 2015 OP
There will be a huge displacement AngryAmish Jul 2015 #1
I hope your right. raouldukelives Jul 2015 #3
Oh, it's even more complicated than that. DetlefK Jul 2015 #2
Maybe Ray Kursweil is right. Emelina Jul 2015 #4
Death. Starvation. The wealthy being gibbetted in the streets for their ignorance. HughBeaumont Jul 2015 #5
This is an inherent problem of a capitalist economy. redgreenandblue Jul 2015 #6
Why would the perfect machine want payment? Or an "owner"? (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #7
Your question is exactly my point. redgreenandblue Jul 2015 #8
How does public ownership of the menas of production help? Adrahil Jul 2015 #9
At this point, it doesn't. redgreenandblue Jul 2015 #11
We have to go sci-fi to answer whatthehey Jul 2015 #10
When the machines total costs are less than the Human, One_Life_To_Give Jul 2015 #12
 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
1. There will be a huge displacement
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 06:34 AM
Jul 2015

You see it in the law, huge tech efficiencies has cut the need for lawyers by about 1/3. Expert systems will replace a lot of doctors.

I figure about 45% of people lack the iq and drive to work. The real displacement will take place when cars and trucks drive themselves and robots can do cobstruction.

There will be bespoke work, like artisinal butchers and charcuterie makers. But other low end work will go away.

Miniimum income, subsidized cable tv and subsidized birth control.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
2. Oh, it's even more complicated than that.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 06:54 AM
Jul 2015

No, the introduction of robots is not at all like the introduction of other technologies. Robots aren't tools that make a worker a better worker. They are a new kind of worker replacing the old kind of worker.

If one kind of worker demands pay and the other one works for free, which one will the company pick?

Humans need not apply.



The novel "Lord of all Things" is about a technology of super-robots that could produce anything for anybody, essentially making every single human independent from such things as physical work, money, trade... If it ever got introduced. One of the investors doesn't want this technology to become true: If people no longer have to work for money, what's the point of being rich???

The novel ponders a penalty-tax on corporations that use robots to pay for a basic income for everybody, because humans are essentially unemployable as workers but they are still crucial as consumers.






But if we go 50 years into the future to look at the number of robots, why not go 50 years into the future to look at the quality of robots?

What was the most advanced piece of consumer-electronics we had 20 years ago? A 300MHz desktop-PC with Win95.
Nowadays we have computer-watches that obey to spoken commands and communicate wirelessly with other computers. We have neural networks that make statistical predictions more accurate than any human ever could.
What will be the most advanced piece of consumer-electronics 20 years from now?

What if the robots 50 years from now aren't willing factory-slaves?
What if they have a consciousness similar to a dog or monkey? Or similar to a human child?
What if a robot, like a dog or monkey in a similar situation, decides that it doesn't like being a factory-slave no more?

HughBeaumont

(24,461 posts)
5. Death. Starvation. The wealthy being gibbetted in the streets for their ignorance.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 08:06 AM
Jul 2015

Dystopia . . . simply because we're not a country that does what's best for the country, but rather, what's best for the wealthy.

Joe and Jane Sixpack aren't going to invent their way out of this scenario . . .. really, in the 80s when not everything was created in a corporate lab, they didn't then. That was an anomaly.

To think that all of us are going to become our own bosses and serve each other is FOLLY.

To think that a gerrymandered bunch of selfish, "every person for themselves" borderline-theocrats are going to enact a Guaranteed Minimum Income is COMEDIC.

We're going to be left to our own threadbare elements and we're going to fail. MISERABLY. There are only so many hours in a day and we're not all salespeople, scientists, inventors, businesspersons or financial experts. Humans don't have the financial resources to pay for a sudden emergency, let alone years of expensive training for a career that's going to be obsolete as soon as they're done.

But really, it doesn't matter at all to the Creative Destruction set, who giggle gleefully at the prospect of millions out of work and then cry "PERSECUTION!" when you lay this inevitability on them.

Hey, don't listen to ME, though. I'm just one big Sam Sobstory. Everything's going to turn out just fine. Really.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
6. This is an inherent problem of a capitalist economy.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 08:24 AM
Jul 2015

Increased productivity means decreased demand for labor, means less people with an income, means less potential consumers of the produced goods. Extrapolating to a theoretical limit implies that at some point there will be a perfect machine that produces everything everyone needs to live, but everyone starves because no one has a job with a wage to pay for the goods that the machine produces. Also, the owners of the machine will not be able to make a profit because there are no customers.

Solution: Public ownership of the means of productions.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
8. Your question is exactly my point.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 08:27 AM
Jul 2015

The system cannot work as long as the machine has a private "owner". Public distribution of the generated surplus is inevitable.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
9. How does public ownership of the menas of production help?
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 09:45 AM
Jul 2015

Some bullshit communist variation is not going to solve the problem here.... I'm not sure what will, but that won't. It hasn't worked, it doesn't work. It's as delusional as the those who think we need to try supply-side economics one more time....

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
11. At this point, it doesn't.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 09:58 AM
Jul 2015

We do not have the perfect machine that I described.

What should be done now is a guaranteed basic income funded by high taxes for wealthy individuals and corporations.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
10. We have to go sci-fi to answer
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 09:52 AM
Jul 2015

Optimists seem to think Star Trek TNG where everyone has a replicator but lives some kind of Rousseau-ish communal life out of choice.

Pessimists look to Mad Max and a red in tooth and claw competition for scraps.

I'd go somewhere in the middle and suggest an adaptation of Heinlein's vision in Starship Troopers et al. We will likely end up with a two-tier society. But not like his based on military service, rather based on command of either technology or capital or both. For fear of rebellion and/or contagion, eventually the PTB will have to deal with the unwashed mostly economically useless masses. Their 3 choices will be extermination, isolation or pacification. Short of an Elysium style lebensraum, which I suspect will not be feasible by the time the decision is necessary, the second is unworkable. The first will have many advocates but the sensible will realize that the only way to do it is deploy a huge army of brutal sociopaths, who will even through room temperature IQs quickly realize that they are hard asses with guns and you are willing to kill your social inferiors so you get to have all the goodies. Easy to see where that leads. Only wild-card there is if Cyberdyne can start its T-range of products before the masses become a real problem. Doubt it, but if I'm wrong then option 1 looks likely.

The third then becomes the likely default. A guaranteed income that affords basic comfort with no cruel lack to inspire revolt, entertainment and distractions, a tiny amount of education sufficient to ensure comprehension of social constructs and identify the next generation of technocrats who will get streamed into the real schools, and a calm flock of sheep is yours. Maybe throw in a mock democracy. I'm under no illusion that I would be anything but of the flock since whatever cerebral gifts I possess are not inclined to either technology or realpolitik, and I personally could live quite happily as one. I have no desire to set the world on fire either as rebel or powerbroker, and would happily live a humdrum life supplied with needs and wants at a basic level. To be honest is that really different to how the middle class live now, except we have to go to jobs 40 hours a week or so?

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
12. When the machines total costs are less than the Human,
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 10:04 AM
Jul 2015

When the machines total costs are less than the Human, the automated system will be installed. For the same reasons we don't take Stage Coaches or dig tunnels with pick and shovel. Labor is a very substantial part of the cost of everything we produce.

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