In Greece, defiance dissipates into capitulation

[former9thward]

ATHENS — Less than a week ago, Greece stood defiant. Thousands of people flooded the square outside Parliament, draping themselves in blue-and-white flags to celebrate the country’s sweeping rejection of the tough austerity measures demanded by its European creditors, which Greece’s fiery young leader had likened to “blackmail.”

But by Friday, the euphoria had faded as Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’s vows to stand up to ­Europe caved to the harsh realization that the birthplace of democracy stood just 48 hours away from financial ruin — and Greeks were poised to swallow what amounted to the same dose of austerity they had refused in a vote Sunday.

“Each one of us shall be confronted with his stature and his history. Between a bad choice and a catastrophic one, we are forced to opt for the first one,” Tsipras said in a speech before his party’s lawmakers, according to local media. “It is as if one asks you for your money or your life.”

In the wee hours of Saturday morning, the Greek Parliament backed a ­last-ditch plea to creditors for more than 50 billion euros in emergency funding that could carry the country through the next three years. European officials in Brussels also planned to pore over the proposal Saturday afternoon. Approval from the 19-member euro zone’s finance ministers would open the door to restarting formal negotiations that had broken down in the run-up to the referendum.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/european-officials-pore-over-greeces-last-ditch-request-for-a-bailout/2015/07/10/1467a97e-2645-11e5-b621-b55e495e9b78_story.html?wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1

[Fred Sanders]

1. One prefers a bad but only choice to catastrophe? I am with Tspiras, who the Greeks support on this.

American opinions and pretend caterwauling that this is "capitulation" are both wrong and irrelevant.

I support the Greek people, who have spoken clearly three times now, election, referendum and legislative majority in support of Tspiras.

That is all that anyone should need to know about this long negotiated...negotiated....agreement.

[PoliticAverse]

3. No, it's both right and irrelevant. n/t

[PoliticAverse]

2. Banks being closed indefinately and an economy completely at a standstill is an excellent way

to 'coax' a surrender.

BTW the entire Greek surrender proposal is now online for anyone to read, see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026963473

[Fred Sanders]

4. Surrender? Call it what you will, it is not that! Ask the Greek people how they feel...it is a good

compromise...it is not all they asked for...but asking for more than what you eventually get is called "negotiating". Unless negotiating and eventual settlement now means surrender then all negotiations are a form of surrender...

Not unlike the ACA...you want to call that "surrender", your choice.

[PoliticAverse]

5. A week ago 61% of the people voted against the deal they are in the end accepting.

After a week of banks being closed and the economy at a halt.

Call it what you will to feel better about it, but only by facing reality will things
eventually get much better. It's the continual denial of reality that has gotten
the Greek people into this mess, it isn't the way out of it.

[Fred Sanders]

6. It is not the same deal, that is banker propaganda.....now you are calling the Greek people in denial?

Besides, didn't the bankers' withdraw whatever "deal" they had offered?

[PoliticAverse]

7. Here's the text of the actual deal Greece proposed, tell me where the improvement is...

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3860854/Prior-action-final-version-July-2015.0.pdf

"Now you are calling the Greek people in denial?"

I'm sorry if what I wrote:

Call it what you will to feel better about it, but only by facing reality will things
eventually get much better. It's the continual denial of reality that has gotten
the Greek people into this mess, it isn't the way out of it.

wasn't clear.

Yes.

[Fred Sanders]

8. It is complicated and difficult to compare pre-referendum and post -referendum deals point by point,

But this is a good summary:

Here's a quick digest of what looks like a much harsher austerity deal for Greece, and in this document at least, there is no mention of the debt sustainability issue.
- Primary budget surplus targets: government has agreed to hit targets of 1pc, 2pc, 3pc, and 3.5pc from 2015-2018. This is in line with what has already been proposed, but they are still very ambitious, particularly as economic activity is set to have deteriorated even further while the country is under capital controls and the banking system is temporarily shut down.
- VAT exemptions for Greek islands will be abolished: the 30pc discounted rate will go, as demanded by creditors but previously fiercely resisted by the government. The proposals say they will start with "islands with the highest incomes and which are the most popular tourist destinations" first.
- Hotels will remain in lower 13pc bracket, but restaurants will be hit by the highest 23pc bracket. Books, medicines and the threatre (don't ask me why) will remain at a super reduced 6pc rate.
- Greek farmers will also have all fuel subsidies abolished, another concession demanded by creditors in previous plans
- Importantly, the proposals note that these VAT measures will be reviewed before the end of 2016, if "additional revenues are collected through tax evasion" and other improved collection measures result in higher tax income
- Higher income tax: should any of the proposals result in "fiscal shortfalls" the government is controversially proposing hikes on income tax for the poorest earners. This would see
incomes below €12,000 taxed at 15pc (from 11pc)
incomes above €12,000 taxed at 35pc (from 33pc)
Corporation tax would also be raised to 29pc
- Pensions: Greeks have agreed to phase out their supplementary pensions for the poorest by Dec 2019, rather than 2020. There is no mention of replacing them, and importantly, the top 20pc beneficiaries will also not be protected from the cuts. The government has also agreed to hike the basic pensions retirement age to 67
- Interestingly, the government also seems to have agreed to nullify previous court rulings which have deemed the 40pc cut in pensions as unconstitutional and need of reverse: The authorities will adopt legislation to fully offset the fiscal effects of the implementation of court rulings on the 2012 pension reform.
- Defence spending: to be cut by €100m this year and €200m in 2016. Creditors previously demanded €400m budget cut next year.
- Corporation tax: will be raised to 28pc, rather than 29pc first set out by Athens

.............

And the bankers are meeting resistance from the IMF of all places on the claim to that Greece needs to cut spending immediately by a massive 30%..... Negotiations continue.

http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/2015/07/09/greece-past-critiques-and-the-path-forward/?hootPostID=8299b6670cea64b9daad8b21e9a85fe7

[sabbat hunter]

9. if greece

was able to collect all the money owed to it each year by tax evasion, they would not be in this mess. In Greece 30 billion euro goes uncollected due to corruption. That would roughly be the equivalent of 800 billion US dollars in the US.

In the US, large corporations, the rich use the tax laws to lower what they owe (Sometimes to zero). In Greece a wealthy person who in reality makes 100,000 claims to make only 7k. The government knows he actually make 100k. But when they go to collect, the person just bribes the local official to look the other way. If Greece enforced the rules in place, they would be in much better shape. Widespread tax evasion a major problem that Greece has not tried to conquer, no matter what party is in power.

[Igel]

10. Collecting taxes in Greece would be "austerity."

It's when you cut spending and increase tax revenues to reduce the deficit. It's evil, evil, evilllllllllll...

But here in the US where we progressives so hate austerity, collecting unpaid taxes is "justice" and not austerity, while reductions in spending is the "sequester" and while it's hated, since it lets Obama's budget deficit drop, is a good thing. Again, not austerity at all, cutting spending and increasing tax revenues to reduce the deficit. Austerity is increasing tax revenues and cutting spending to reduce the deficit--a completely different critter.

In fact, just disposing of current laws that are deemed to allow tax avoidance and increase tax revenues even further is a very good thing, and still another sign of a complete lack of austerity, and it would be great to cut those parts of the budget we don't like even more. We absolutely hate austerity. We just like increasing tax revenues and cutting expenses to reduce the deficit. Or was that the other way around?

[sabbat hunter]

11. It isn't even about

increasing taxes. It is about collecting the taxes already due under current rates. The current laws in greece do not allow tax avoidance; corruption and bribes allow tax evasion.
They have laws against tax evasion in Greece, just like we do.