The South Lost

[martalcd]

I've got just three words for anyone who is upset about the Confederate flag coming down in South Carolina...your side lost.

The New York Times printed an article on July 10, 2015 about the lowering of the Confederate flag in South Carolina. In the article, the reporter talked with a woman who attended the ceremony.

There were some who watched with heavy hearts. Joy Jackson, 76, walked to the State House with a battle flag wrapped around her shoulders like a shawl, and with a timeworn photo of her grandfather, William Marcus Faircloth. She said he had fought for the Confederacy and was wounded three times in battles in Virginia. The flag, she said, was to honor veterans like him.

When is someone going to flat out tell people like this woman that the south lost the war? Their flag means nothing, and each and every battle flag the south used should be burned. They fought against their own country to keep human beings enslaved, and they lost. They have no right to fly the flag of a conquered region. They lost.

Her great-grandfather should not be honored. He fought to secede from the United States for the sole purpose of owning slaves, was wounded three times fighting to leave the union for that reason, and he should not be honored. His fighting in the war should not mean that African Americans have the Confederate flag flaunted in their face everywhere they go.

No one that fought for the south in the Civil War should be honored. They were fighting with the United States of America, and because they lost the southern states should only fly the American flag.

All this whining I've heard for years about the "war for southern independence" is nonsense. The south wanted to own people to work them to death, then buy more people to work them to death as well. They built their economy on the backs of the slaves. They leased out human beings to others to be worked to death. For 150 years they have flown the flag of that war where the descendants of the people they enslaved can see it every day, the same people that the United States fought to free. They lost.

The south lost. You can't say it enough.

[link:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/south-carolina-confederate-flag.html?emc=edit_th_20150711&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=58529908|

[kentuck]

1. Nobody "won"...

600,000 people lost their lives.

[In_The_Wind]

2. and, that's the very sad truth.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Millions of enslaved people won their freedom.

[LostOne4Ever]

17. ^THIS! nt

[BillZBubb]

75. Yes!

[Glassunion]

80. Define freedom.

150 years later this descendant of slaves does not feel as free as most.

[kentuck]

81. True.

After Reconstruction and the carpetbaggers, and Jim Crow and the KKK, it is still a battle to try to maintain the right to even vote. The war did not end in 1865.

[Glassunion]

84. Indeed.

I live in and love the north. I am however from the south and I still love her deeply.

[Warren Stupidity]

86. Not a chattel slave.

I did not make the argument that any of us are completely free. But you cannot seriously be arguing that the end of chattel slavery was not a victory for all of those who were slaves then, right?

[Glassunion]

90. Well we did go from chattel to indentured

So I guess that was a step in the right direction. I will give you that.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. Actually for about 10 years reconstruction worked.

Then things, pun intended, went south.

[underpants]

7. Yes somebody did

The same people who always "win" from wars. Some things never change.

[snagglepuss]

8. Exactly. Winner/Loser utterly childish. Nothing

more than na-na-na-na-na.

[Octafish]

31. Exactly.

Nobody wins in war, except the wealthy.

[Enthusiast]

128. +1 an entire shit load.

[roguevalley]

39. My g grandpa was a sargent in Shelby's Cavalry. He was from Missouri and heard his father had died

he and his best friend walked home for the funeral and were caught by union soldiers. His friend was shot dead in front of him for who knows what reason. Maybe he smart mouthed. Maybe the union soldier was nervous. Grandpa Robert Alonzo Paxton was taken to New Orleans to a prison, jumped out of a two story window and fled to southern Illinois until the war was over. He came home to Missouri, packed up his family and went west over the Oregon Trail in 1868. They pioneered Eastern Oregon and when my mom was in her 60's, I did genealogy about him and told her, "Hey Mama, your grandpa was a reb."

She nearly passed out with surprise.

No one talked about the war. No one had 'stories' though Grandpa apparently told some on his death bed but only the funny stuff, the good things that happened among his friends in camps, not the battles. She was taught to treat people right no matter what and so were the children of Grandpa, my own grandpa and great aunts and uncles. Until my mom was in her 60's, she thought the family was union. That is how they were raised, that is how the family thought about America, that is what they wanted in the family.

The fucking war of southern treason is over. It's dead. Re-enact if you want because cosplay is fun but don't think anyone is ready to put up with your 'Cause' anymore. Rich men conned poor men to fight a war to protect their property and income. That is that. Even my great grandpa would tell you that.

I am related to Jefferson Davis a couple of times removed. To hell with Jefferson Davis and his treason. Its over. Period.

[jaysunb]

126. +1 n/t

[BillZBubb]

74. I have to STRONGLY disagree.

The North won and the Union was preserved and strengthened. Those who died in the defense of the Union paid the ultimate price and victory is their legacy.

Those who joined the cause of southern treason lost, and if they died they died for something evil.

Those who survived and supported the Union won, they in no way lost. The slaves certainly won, but still had a hard row to hoe.

Those of us who have enjoyed the fruits of a strong and powerful Union are the big winners.

[tabasco]

97. I'm with you

Somebody trying to be too deep with this "nobody won" claim.

[Euphoria]

123. +10000 n/t

[edhopper]

111. 40,000,000 people died in WWII

I would say the allies still won and we should not honor Nazi Germany.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. “(T)he blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword”

[Algernon Moncrieff]

121. Gettysburg and Antietam are not sacred and hallowed ground because of who won

Those fields are sacred because Americans -- northern and southern -- died there. Just like Ground Zero and the USS Arizona are sacred. Just as Wounded Knee and Little Big Horn are sacred.

[Enthusiast]

127. +1

[still_one]

3. Would you honor the dead soldiers from the Vietnam War ?

Is it wrong for the Japanese to honor their fallen from WWII, or the Germans?

Condemning the confederacy is one thing, telling people that their dead loved ones deserve no honor is an entirely different issue

Should we honor the Americans who were killed in Iraq?

Perspective is an important thing. The South is removing the symbol of hate and division, and it seems that some feel it imperative to rub their noses in it.

Old generations die out, and with them their old ways

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Germany does not allow the display of the nazi flag.

[still_one]

9. That is not what I said. I was specifically addressing the OP whose contention was

that those who fought in that war and died, or any war for that matter where they were wrong should not be honored

Then I named some examples where our country was involved in immoral or at best questionable wars, and is it wrong to honor the fallen?

Removing the symbol of racism, hate, and division is fine, but telling someone that their loved ones who died in a war deserve no honor is quite another thing

I do not understand why what I said is being distorted. I made it very clear that removing the flag was the right thing to do, I was addressing a different issue that the OP brought up

Should we honor our fallen from Vietnam Nam, Iraq, or any other war where we were wrong?

[martalcd]

22. Those were wars on foreign soil...

where troups were sent from a completely different country to another country. The Civil War was fought within a single country, the US, and I don't honor anyone who was fighting to overtake their own country; should you honor a traitor to their country? I'm talking civil war, not country vs country war. I honor veterans of foreign war on either side, as most people do.

[still_one]

32. Maybe you should watch Ken Burns documentary on the civil war

[martalcd]

70. I've rewatched Ken Burns "Civil War" many times...

And I know my history. The documentary doesn't make any case for the Confederate flag being flown right after the Civil War or today, 150 years later.

And, despite the graciousness and erudition of Shelby Foote, who I love to listen to, the documentary shows the horrors of that war, which was initiated by the Confederacy, not the US. Despite everything that has been said, the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and shouldn't be displayed anywhere.

[still_one]

79. Where did I say anything about preserving that flag? In fact just the opposite

[jwirr]

36. One country? USA vs CSA. That is the Confederate States of America - a country with its own

president and army.

[Gore1FL]

50. The CSA never legally existed. n/t

[jwirr]

56. Well they certainly thought they did.

[msanthrope]

57. Nonsense. The CSA was a legal fiction. nt

[treestar]

21. those wars just don't compare

bad as they were - they were not fighting to keep human beings enslaved. They thought they were fighting communism or terrorism or some bullshit but they were not actively fighting to keep humans enslaved. Neither of those causes has a flag of its own. And no one celebrates those causes today though they were much more recent.

It has been 150 years so we don't need to worry about honor of those who fought it. That's using your ancestors as an excuse to cling to the cause. None of us know our ancestors and have no real excuse for worrying about whether they did the right thing or not. Nothing to be ashamed of if an ancestor that far back did something wrong, just like you get no credit for being descended from a great person.

[jwirr]

33. Old generations die out and with them their old ways? It has been 150 years. I do not think the

article quoted in the OP is wise - just continues the fight but I do not think that it is the reason that the hate has not died out. The haters teach it.

Like calling the Civil War the War of Aggression. What aggression? I seem to remember that it was a southerner who fired on Fort Sumter. The south that seceded. A war of aggression would have been one where we invaded them with no provocation. Something like how we invaded Iraq.

I worked as curator at a museum. We were working on a veteran's memorial room and I (German-American) and my assistant (born in Germany) were given all the artifacts that the Veterans organization had stored for years from WWII. Included in these artifacts was both a Nazi flag and the flag of Japan. We asked our director how we should display these flags. It was left to us to decide.

We had no problem with the Japanese flag because it is still the flag of Japan. It was hung up as they now display it.

But the Nazi flag was not so easy. That flag was the symbol of a defeated nation who represented some pretty terrible things like the holocaust. My uncle had fought against that flag and my assistants father had fought for it. In the end we laid it on the bottom of the display case (did not hang it in a sign of honor) and rested other Nazi artifacts on it. Displayed but not honored. It was the symbol of a nation our country had defeated and nothing else.

[roguevalley]

40. If that is the thought behind their flag displays, no one should be mad when Nazi flags fly or

crosses get burned. that's 'heritage' too.

[Matrosov]

47. Germans don't honor dead Nazis

Germany and Japan are their own countries. We don't have the right to tell them whether or not to honor their dead veterans from WWII.

The CSA was a group of Americans that wanted to preserve slavery. Honoring dead Confederates is like honoring dead traitors.

Besides, people in Germany do not honor high ranking Nazi officials the way Southerners want to honor Jefferson Davis or Robert E Lee, nor do Germans fly the Nazi flag in honor of German heritage.

[Mopar151]

5. They mourn that sheen of nobility

That was carefully applied to a brutal and exploitative system.

[oneshooter]

10. Just more South bashing.

To be expected, same ol same ol.

[cwydro]

19. I know.

I truly wonder what is up with the south bashers. This one appears new, but there are many longtime DUers who just CANNOT let go of this subject.

I hear more about confederate flags and the civil war here on DU than I EVER hear in the south.

[quickesst]

34. The ones...

...who are more determined to keep the civil war alive more than the confederate flag wavers? You can find prime examples right here in the gloating section determined to rack up the attaboys from the bashing choir.

[still_one]

82. Let's see anyone win an election without the South. I am not talking the flag, most

Americans North and South agreed with its removal, I am talking about how "the evil South" talking point that has been popping up

As someone said in this thread, how about the American genocide of the Native Americans?

[treestar]

23. how is it bashing

the south won?

It's just a fact.

[cwydro]

35. You might want to proofread your post lol.

[ybbor]

62. What's wrong with the post?

They're asking how the statement is bashing.

Then they ask, did the south win!

The answer is no, the south lost.

Those are the facts.

Not bashing, stating facts.

[treestar]

88. Yep.

[Skittles]

117. they are very sensitive indeed, yes?

[Nac Mac Feegle]

30. Why is it considered "South Bashing"

When it's just "Calling you on your Bullshit"???


You don't get to play the victim. You aren't one.

Stop the Ann Coulter act.

[CherokeeDem]

64. Ann Coulter act????

Really.... you would use that vile woman to demean a DU'er you disagree with?

There are surely more appropriate insults to hurl at others.

[heaven05]

38. awww, poor south

poor racists, poor flags symbolizing hate, poor monuments to hate and first graand wizard of the KKK. nathan bedford forest, big monument in memphis. No bashing, just fact. They want these rags and monuments to treason, it's on the south again.

[npk]

92. Ah poor you. South been so mean to you

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[bravenak]

94. I guess all those lynchings of our family members was nice?

[npk]

95. Did the entire south lynch your family.

That is tragic.

[bravenak]

96. of course not. They also did nothing to stop it. Promoted lynchings, really.

[npk]

98. How do you know "they" did nothing to stop it

A lot of white people from the south marched alongside Doctor King and many of the marches. It's funny how you have no problem generalizing an entire group of people, but if someone else does it to you then you whine to the mod's quicker than a lightning strike.

[bravenak]

99. Well, when I see photos of lynchings there are usually about 50 to 150-

Nice white christian southern folks standing around smiling and picknicking. And they also took body parts as souvenirs. So, no. I don't think anyone tried to stop it. I've never written to the mods before, but I will write to them about this post.
This is a part of southern history, heritage if you will. You can't have the good without the bad. Lynchings of blacks are a part of Southern heritage. Period. I don't think you belong here but It's not my call to decide who should be here.

[bravenak]

100. Do you see anybody trying to stop it??? I sure the hell don't.

http://media2.fdncms.com/sacurrent/imager/whitewashing-history/u/zoom/2308890/news_lynched_optjpg


They look so HAPPY! Proud of their heritage and shit.

[bravenak]

103. I never said they did. You did.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. ...

On Sat Jul 11, 2015, 10:53 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

And they represent all the white southerners
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6964991

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Very abusive poster. Should be banned.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 11, 2015, 10:57 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Uggh.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: HIDE IT/HIDE IT/HIDE IT/AND HIDE IT AGAIN. I SAY GOD DAMN THE CONFEDERACY.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[bravenak]

107. THANK YOU!!!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. ...

I can't believe we are still fighting the Civil War.

[bravenak]

112. Me neither. It's fucking sad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. ...

[bravenak]

115. Beautiful!!

[heaven05]

108. A lot did and some died

yet multitudes didn't and still won't "march" for racial equality. Please the south cannot ever rise again. A foot on the throat is what southern "heritage" and the people who perpetuate racist ideology deserve. How do I know they did nothing to stop it, because it still goes on today. Simple really. 160 years of Jim Crow law, old and current, many many lynchings, proves no one tried or even cared. You want the flags in your front yard, go for it. But bombings, burnings of churches, shootings of innocent people, my grandmother was one of those shot, we shot back, the cowards ran and murders of innocent people is still common in the south today by the citizens and authorized executioners of the southern PTB. You'll get no where feeling sorry for the southern ideology of hate and racism that PERMEATES southern heritage and tradition. I generalize when I say, there are not many standing up from the south, so far, and saying no more to racism and white supremacist ideology. You seem to be whining in your response, I haven't seen anything in other responses but factual statements concerning southern "heritage" related to that flag and confederate monuments to the 'heroes' of the confederate army. They all need to be torn down, burned and totally destroyed. They represent hate and racist bigotry.

[heaven05]

109. not recently

but it was pretty mean to 9 people on 17 June 2015. The murderer loved that flag you seem to imply is a good symbol of the south. HAH! backatcha.

[safeinOhio]

68. Born in the South with roots that go way back.

The most often cited official date of the end of the civil war is April 9, 1865 when General Robert E Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia at the McLean House in the village of Appomattox Court House.

The only Confederate flag that matters is the White Flag of Surrender that flew on that date.

[Texasgal]

11. I do not care.

I'll say it over and over again because I cannot say it enough. I do not care.

[Jawja]

12. That's just great, martalcd,

Come in as a new poster and insult DU members who were born and raised in the South by pointing out the obvious. Your post is flame bait and not at all productive toward any meaningful conversation.

Buh bye!

[martalcd]

18. I'm a long-time member of the DU...

I just haven't posted much.

[Omaha Steve]

133. I haven't been here as long as you

My point of of view says your calling the kettle black over post counts. Buh bye

[Report1212]

13. No, the Confederacy lost

The south is better off without it.

[Jawja]

15. Thank you.

The South is no longer the Confederacy and a lot of us here agree with removing it's symbols. I am sick and tired of the South bashing on DU.

[cwydro]

20. Most everyone is sick of it.

But this OP apparently just had to start it again.

[arely staircase]

27. here here. those poor souls murdered in Charleston were southerners. nt

[jwirr]

43. Exactly and most southerners agree. All it takes is a loud minority to keep a fight going.

[treestar]

89. that's a good distinction.

[Baitball Blogger]

14. Who knew that the last battle of that war would be fought

in the 21st Century?

[Man from Pickens]

16. Apparently not

If 150 years later the issue is still open, the battle is still on.

But the billionaire class thanks you for focusing on this and not noticing they passed TPP 12 hours after the massacre while your attention was oh look squirrel.

[cantbeserious]

101. ^^^ THIS ^^^

eom

[Skittles]

119. strange

why is there always someone who thinks there can be focus on no more than ONE serious issue at any given time?

[Man from Pickens]

124. let me tell you a little story

Once worked in a place where the boss kept telling me that this issue or that issue was the "#1 priority". I would be told that, at any given moment, as many as a dozen things were the "#1 priority". After weeks of that I finally responded that only one thing can be an actual, genuine #1 priority at any given time, and having more than one #1 priority was the exact same thing as having no #1 priority at all.

Likewise, political movements can't have more than one #1 priority. Overnight that #1 priority went from stopping TPP to taking down Confederate flags, and the very next day TPP, which had previously been defeated in Congress, was finally passed.

There's no avoiding the direct link between the Charleston massacre and the passage of TPP, and the enabling that the oh look squirrel crowd is responsible for in falling for the bait and changing focus at a crucial moment in history.

You could paint all of Dixie in Confederate battle flags and it wouldn't do the tiniest fraction of the actual damage TPP will do to us.

[Skittles]

129. saying what the damage is, that is one thing

but that fucking flag should NEVER have been flown at the state capitol and it took the SLAUGHTER OF NINE PEOPLE to bring attention to it so DO NOT SAY IT IS OF MINUTE IMPORTANCE COMPARED TO SOMETHING ELSE

[Man from Pickens]

130. why not?

The damage caused by that flag in the modern era is not even among the top thousand ills that afflict us today.

And its more than a little bit hypocritical to be focused on that rather than actual slavery in the US right this very moment under the guise of prison labor, a regime under which there are more slaves than ever were held in this country previously.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance involved in caring more deeply about a symbol associated with slavery from 8-10 generations ago, in preference to caring about the practice of slavery right here right now.

Imagine how much more good would be done if this focus on the Confederate flag were instead put on the prison-industrial complex!

[Skittles]

131. OMG

*DONE* here

[Man from Pickens]

132. Amazing how that happens

so little sacrifice is required to take the victorious side of a 150-year-old conflict

so much effort is required to seriously oppose powerful political interests of the present day

it's quite noticeable how little probing it takes to see who actually opposes slavery vs. who just likes to hop on a bandwagon and pretend they have always been a loyal fan of the winning team

time and time again I am finding it extremely difficult to get Confederate-flag-obsessers to even acknowledge the modern practice of prison slavery even exists, forget about eliciting the tiniest sympathetic word for the condition of slaves in America today

[Igel]

24. I'll be sure to spit on the next Vietnam vet I see.

After all, we lost.

I'd also point out that the people who were enslaved had also lost. Those who engaged in slave uprisings should be held in contempt and disgrace.

Really, let each group memorialize their dead. Many war memorials aren't just to the winning side, but to all those who died in the war under question.

It's been 160 years. I knew people who lost friends and family in WWII, who fought in those wars and were shot at and even wounded, who had more sympathy for former German and Japanese soldiers than many "liberals" have for kids who died 150 years ago. I've known German concentration camp survivors who managed to deal with and mourn the dead on all sides--those in the camps as well as the German kids on the front lines. They reserved their hatred for those who gave the orders, well aware that some of those who staffed the camps had the choice of being brutal to them or being killed themselves. Anything you personally experienced during the Civil War happened a long time ago and it's time to let it go--and if you weren't there then the vicarious hate is a bit overmuch, and probably less about the war than about a symbol, less about history and more about personal grievances or grievances felt to be personal.

[heaven05]

29. nope

white supremacist terror, murder, rape and cradle to grave enslavement should never be memorialized. That is all the flags and monuments to "southern heroes" stand for. Those german and japanese POW's were treated far better by their captors than black soldiers(my father told me stories, he was there "Red Ball Express) and black citizens of this country in that day. Don't forget that the german POW's were treated very well by their american captors. Some even stayed here after their release from prison camps here in america. And IT'S ALL ABOUT HISTORY! It's very personal.

[cwydro]

41. Do you know how American prisoners were treated by the Japanese?

Or American prisoners by the Viet Cong?

Veterans from that era have forgiven their captors.

Hatred helps no one.

[heaven05]

44. I know a lot of what you just posted

tell that last line to dylaan roof. CCC. KKK. darren wilson, zimmerpigman, et al. I'm talking of the south and for that matter, east, west, north and the continuing reverence for the symbols of white southern hate against the people who represent the reason they lost. It is very personal and no matter your words, will stay that way. It is all about history right up to today.

[cwydro]

46. Mm.

You go with that then.

I live in the south.

There is more talk of that war of 160 years ago on this site than there ever is in the south.

[heaven05]

54. they don't have to talk about

it, it's in a reserved, reverential spot in their hearts, consciousness if you will. Mine too, for the many many slaughtered, 5 million in the slave trade and american institution, many more in the 'Middle Passage' by some counts, in the name of southern pride and honor.

[cwydro]

60. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Seriously.

No one other than the most backwoods moron has any "reserved, reverential spot in their hearts" for any of that.

You do know that northerners were involved in the slave trade right? Look up New England ports and slave ships. Look up northern slavery.

None of it was right.

But you can take your south bashing and ...well, I'll just leave it there honey chile.

Now you go have a good day, you hear?

[heaven05]

67. heh,

keep digging, you'll reach china one day in the far flung future. I study-research, so what you say is true, but irrelevant to the many "backwoods morons" in the north, south, east and west that are continuing the "southern heritage" as related to.... that war. Yeah, you have a good one also, ya heah!!!

[cwydro]

87. Nice.

Real classy way to act to your fellow DUers.

Why don't you take your brave warrior act on the road to a Freeper site or a white supremacist site. Surely there must be such places?

Why attack fellow dems H05? Curious about that.

Hmm?

[heaven05]

116. Not attacking

just pointing out their hypocrisy in defending the "southern heritage" of hate and bigotry related to honoring that flag from that war. Thanks for the advice, I already give those people and sites you mentioned plenty of grief, even had some crying with rage one day. I have been a warrior in this fight for almost 50 years now and I have the scars to prove it, what's your say on racism and bigotry and what have you done to fight it? I feel you really have no idea what you're defending when it comes to "southern heritage" and "tradition", or maybe you do. You have a good one, I'm done with an armchair quarterback.

[George II]

71. Northerners and New Englanders recognized the brutality of slavery and abolished it...

...on their own before the Confederate states seceded or the Civil War began.

The Confederate states fought to maintain the brutal practice, and industry, of slavery.

You can't compare Northern and Southern states when it comes to the slave industry.

[haikugal]

52. You're talking about the neo-confederate movement

And it's germaine to the overall discussion...see here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016127011

[heaven05]

58. thank you

aware of movement, it is, among many sources, where I get a lot of my information on the start and continuing white supremacy movement in this country and the world for that matter.

[cwydro]

37. Oh my gosh.

This is truly one of the best posts I've ever read on DU.

I wish I could rec your post.

Thank you sincerely. Well stated in very few words. Damn, you just said it.

[George II]

45. We can all mourn the dead of wars on both sides, even concentration camp survivors mourn...

....their dead and the dead German soldiers as well as the soldiers of the armies that freed them.

But I truly doubt that you'll see any concentration camp survivor happy at the sight of anyone flying the swastika.

[heaven05]

59. damn

I have to agree with that last sentence.

[arely staircase]

25. As a white(ish) southerner, I hate that flag and despise the confederacy and everything it stood for

But love the South. Wouldn't live anywhere else - well maybe northern Italy.

[heaven05]

26. thank god, the union(north) did win

otherwise I would probably still be a slave or fighting in some underground movement to free myself and others from cradle to grave slavery. 600.000 dead? Small price to pay for the "freedom" of millions.

[arely staircase]

28. well i doubt there would still be slavery -probably more of an Aparthied type nation

But yeah, shifty either way. Me and my family are a very mixed bunch of rednecks, Mexicans and AAs. It wouldn't be a nice place for us had the south won.

[George II]

42. The Confederacy was probably the biggest threat to the survival of the United States in our....

...230+ year history. Thank God the United State prevailed - who knows where we all would be today had the Confederacy won the Civil War.

As you say, and it can't be said enough - the Confederacy lost the war, and NO ONE, not even the descendants of Confederate soldiers, have a right to fly the flag of the vanquished.

[jwirr]

49. Agree - is there any country in history that allowed a flag they had defeated to fly throughout

the country after it was defeated? For 150 years? I am just curious what history tells about the fate of those defeated in war.

[George II]

73. Well, the flags of countries that continue to exist after we defeated them do fly*, but....

...the Confederate flag is different. It was created BY "Americans" who no longer wanted to be part of this country. I can't believe this issue wasn't addressed and resolved decades ago.

*For example: Japan, Germany (a different flag, however), etc.

[jwirr]

76. Yes.

[LittleBlue]

48. That war had no winners

War sucks, and civil wars suck most of all because there are no winners. Winners are measured by how much damage both sides inflict on their own countrymen and cities. Can one side actually be thought of as a winner if they partially destroy their own country? Pyrrhic winner at best.


My ancestors fought for the Union BTW

[Fred Sanders]

51. The former slaves and future slaves, if the racist South won....they do not count!? Got it!

[LittleBlue]

61. Yeah, Fred. That's exactly what I meant

I couldn't have been talking about which of the two sides gained victory from the war,no.

How did this forum become so hypersensitive?

[Fred Sanders]

63. That is exactly what you said..."that war had no winners"....but, yes, it did. Refuse to see it, free country

The Second World War also had a winner...remember who the losers were?

[LittleBlue]

65. Yeah because that's what I meant

I'll leave you to OD on righteous outrage alone. Bye.

[Fred Sanders]

72. "I did not mean to say what I said"? All righty, then....."delete" can be your friend, mistakes happen.

[historylovr]

55. This.

[Deadshot]

69. The slaves who were freed were the winners.

[shockey80]

53. The people of the south

They were lied too. Most southerns did not own slaves. Who were they fighting for? The rich politicians, rich plantation owners needed the people to fight to save their wealth, their slaves. How do the rich get the people to fight their war? You lie to them. All those lies were allowed to be passed down from one generation to another. Very sad.

I believe many people in the south know this now but there are still some who believe in the same lies from those years. The southern newspapers back then are a perfect example of how the people of the south were lied too. Google it.

[BlueJazz]

66. Southern people can be the best Drama Queens in the book. They wallow in misery like it's ...

... a virtue.
You ought to live here. It amazing how the populace will beat 100 dead horses to death because someone broke up with their
overnight boyfriend.
"Ohhh, dear Lord...how will I evaaa find another man like him" "Those 20 minutes we spent together were the best times in mii life"

[Moonwalk]

77. The south DIDN'T LOSE. Not entirely. They didn't get their own country, but they got to keep their slaves and slavery...

That's what Jim Crowe was. HELLO? to those saying that the slaves were freed. Really? Jim Crowe, labeled as completely legal by the United States Supreme Court, approved of an ignored by every other branch of the U.S. government till the 1960's, let the South underpay and overwork those of color--maintain them as laborers and servants. It let them lynch anyone who got out of line. It let white men rape women of color with impunity. It kept children of color from getting an education. It kept blacks from voting. And it maintained a corrupt prison system where anyone of color could be arrested (is this sounding familiar) and put them to work indefinitely like a slave.

Short of buying and selling people openly in the marketplace, almost nothing changed. The only benefit of the civil war was that it was easier for people of color to leave and go somewhere else. I say "easier" but that doesn't mean easy.

We shouldn't be asking why certain people are mourning the loss of this flag flying over their state capitols--or what we should be saying to them about it. We should be asking why we LET them fly it without question, without protest until now. We boast about the North fighting to free the slaves, well, clearly, the North didn't give a fuck about those slaves (ex-slaves) once the South was back in place. Why else did it take until the mid-20th century and those people marching and protesting to get the U.S. Government to do anything about their situation? To stop turning a blind eye to it?

And we're still failing. Watch:

We lost. We all lost. Not just in American lives, but in the fact that even in a fight that aimed to right a great wrong, we didn't right a fucking thing. We lost. As for taking down this flag, yes, I'll cheer about that. But we should not be blind to the fact that it is a really, really tardy gesture. It will also be a "token" gesture unless we do more. Taking down this flag may seem like a huge concession to what's right, but it's merely throwing people of color a bone if the whole country doesn't put an end to stand-your-ground laws and law-enforcement abuse and other government sanctioned and media sanctioned acts that let a racist minority (from ANY part of the U.S.) set the tone, set the narrative and do exactly what they want.

[Phentex]

78. As did the Native Americans...

yet I don't see the same disdain for them on DU.

[still_one]

93. Shhhhhh, let's not bring up the Native American genocide. Whose idea was it to give blankets from

infected small pox victims to the Native Americans int the beginning? Must have been the Southerners. (sarcasm)

This whole discussion on DU accomplishes nothing. 99.9999999% of DU members were and are against the confederacy, and for civil rights.

[tymorial]

105. Agreed but some people will never rest until they get the last word

over that .0000001%

[Glassunion]

83. You should disconnect the South from the Confederacy.

The Confederacy lost the war. The north and south were wounded for generations.

The "north", and "south" are currently part of the Union of states. We are them, and they are us. Nowhere in the United States is any less a part of the union than anywhere else.

[kentuck]

85. As Lincoln said..

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

[tymorial]

104. I'm ready for this to be over any day now

[MohRokTah]

118. The only reason that war lasted so long was because of the best Confederate General.

His name was George McClellan.

[cherokeeprogressive]

120. This is the BEST shit-stirring post I've seen in AGES.

[jaysunb]

122. Can you imagine someone flying the S. Vietnamese flag in

Vietnam today ? The south LOST! Both the Southern US and Southern Vietnam LOST. They were both traitors and committed treason against their country. They LOST !

Thanks for this post. It needs to be crystal clear, the cause and the outcome.

[rhett o rick]

125. Wow, have a little empathy. How many people in the South actually owned slaves?

Those poor bastards that fought against all odds were fighting for their lives. Most were forced to fight for the wealthy and didn't have anything to do with slavery.

Slavery gives some the self-righteous excuse to hate a whole area of the country.

[akbacchus_BC]

136. BS, the South was fighting to keep slaves. Empathy with whom?

Enough already, glad the hate flag came down and the pole.

[rhett o rick]

137. I am glad the flag came down also. But I do not like the rubbing salt in the wound of the South's

loss. The wealthy wanted to keep slaves the 99% didn't own slaves but were the ones paying the price of the war.

[frustrated_lefty]

134. Now do some research

on exactly how many people and what races were included in radiation studies. If you look hard enough, you may find evidence of the first testicular transplant across species.

"The south lost. You can't say it enough."

And you imply the North has been a godsend?

[Jim Beard]

135. Put a Mexican Flag over the Alamo, after all they did WIN

So what do we honor, the winners or the losers? Massada? I see Mexican flags around here in western Texas. I see a lot of flag poles with only the Texas flag.

For me, there is only one, the stars and stripes.

Thank you

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Countries who go through civil wars carry those scars

for multiple generations. You will be telling southerners their side lost, well your descendants will, ten generations from now. Just ask Europeans who still remember atrocities that happened 500 and 1000 years ago.