Is this man breaking the law?

[yuiyoshida]

A mogul lighting a cigar with a 50 dollar bill; a pundit setting a dollar ablaze to illustrate a disastrous fiscal policy; a magician tearing the corner off a bill for a magic trick: We see examples of currency destruction all the time, but is it legal? Or is the kid at the fair, pressing a penny into a copper-and-zinc keepsake, breaking the law?

On the one hand, the contemptuous treatment of a coin or a bill might be viewed as an expression of free speech, protected under the First Amendment. As such, the act might occupy a legal status of “expressive conduct” akin to flag burning, as set out by the U.S. Supreme Court in Texas v. Johnson (491 U.S. 397 (1989)) and United States v. Eichman (496 U.S. 310 (1990)).

Of course, monetary destruction carries with it practical consequences as well as symbolic ones. Money has value, both nominal (the amount printed on it) and practical (how much it costs to print, mint or coin).

According to Title 18, Chapter 17 of the U.S. Code, which sets out crimes related to coins and currency, anyone who “alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens” coins can face fines or prison time. The same goes for debasing – that is, decreasing the proportion of precious metals – in gold or silver coins struck or coined at an American mint.

http://www.livescience.com/34286-legal-or-illegal-to-destroy-coins-paper-money.html

14 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes and he's an idiot.
	1 (7%)
	No, and its brilliant
	13 (93%)
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	0 (0%)
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[petronius]

1. Looks like a tedious but secure form of storage. Probably would be wiser to keep

her college fund in the bank, but to each his own...

[yuiyoshida]

2. from the article...

Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.

[Art_from_Ark]

30. I think that's an old code that has since been amended

In 1969, the government made the melting of US silver coins legal, so there goes the "defacing" argument. However, you cannot melt old copper pennies (minted before 1982) or nickels, which contain more than their face value in metal.

It's also not illegal to "deface" a Federal Reserve Note by, for example, drawing a moustache on Washington, as long as the intent is not to deceive.

You can buy cut-out coin jewelry and it's perfectly legal.

[yuiyoshida]

36. Its a crazy world we live in...maybe thats why

so MANY people get killed driving though a stop sign or red light... fuck it, its just a law right?

[Art_from_Ark]

42. The current law about defacing US coins is mostly concerned with fraudulent intent

For example, it is illegal to drill a hole in a quarter in order to cheat vending machines. It is not illegal, however, to drill a hole in a quarter to wear it as a pendant.

When that code was originally passed, gold coins circulated as money in the US, and some people would "shave" a bit of gold from the coins so that the coin would still maintain its face value, but they would get a bit of extra gold which they could melt after they had accumulated a sufficient amount.

Today it is not illegal to melt US silver coins, including silver 5-cent coins minted from 1942-45. It is, however, illegal to melt pre-1982 pennies, and non-silver nickels.

http://about.ag/MeltingSilverCoins.htm

[ornotna]

3. He can always pry them up

If he want's to spend them. And the little girl is getting a lesson in the value of tedious labor.

[yuiyoshida]

4. If he is using glue to put them down

He is breaking the law.

[ornotna]

8. Strictly speaking

He may be breaking the law but I still think it's neat. I'd like to see the finished floor.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

62. I've seen a countertop done like that.

They set all the pennies in place, then used a clear, self-leveling, quick-setting plastic poured over them to create the surface. It was indeed pretty neat.

[former9thward]

20. Turn him in to the U.S. Attorney.

Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)

You got the evidence! And watch when they laugh you out the door...

[yuiyoshida]

34. Thanks for your snarky reply

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 10:21 PM - Edit history (1)

The photo was posted on twitter as a brilliant way to use pennies.. I thought I had read that it was illegal to do this.. apparently its not, though I supposed if he drilled hole into them and sold them as jewelry, it might be all together different or melted them down to make copper tubinig.

[snooper2]

53. not much copper in pennies anymore

[Maedhros]

5. Thought experiment (or maybe plot for a film or novel):

What would happen if some motivated individual with extraordinary means were to accumulate huge, huge amounts of currency and then simply destroyed it? I don't know how much currency is actually in circulation and how much exists only as digital capital, but it would certainly have some effect....

[arcane1]

32. I don't even know if we know how much is in circulation. Can we?

It's an interesting question!

[hunter]

47. What would happen? The guy would lose control of the money...

... and the government would fill the void almost without notice. Any statistical anomaly detected, if anyone cared, would probably be investigated by the tax or criminal authorities first, maybe long before the currency notes were destroyed, as in "What's this guy hiding, what's he doing with all that currency?"

Actual paper currency is such a small fraction of the overall money supply it's essentially delivered to banks as requested. Banks are required to report large currency transactions, and people who frequently withdraw large stacks of currency at rates just below the reporting limits are considered suspect by banking and tax authorities.

Most of the "money" in any modern economy is data in a computer.

At this point I'm certain paper currency can only be accounted for in a statistical manner, like the estimating of bird or butterfly populations is done. Scan the serial numbers on worn or damaged notes coming back, and compare those to the the records of notes previously released. From that you get a rough estimate of the notes in active circulation and the rest don't really matter, it's just a free, zero interest loan to the banking system, hopefully beneficial to "We the People" at large.

[Maedhros]

48. More realistic possibilty: hackers wipe databases, such as ACH clearing houses,

to "destroy" digital currency.

[surrealAmerican]

6. It doesn't seem like a brilliant idea ...

... but he's not altering or destroying the pennies, so it's legal.

The main reason for those laws is to prevent people from trying to use currency in fraudulent ways, or to melt them down and sell the metal for more than the value of the currency.

[yuiyoshida]

11. again...

Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.

[surrealAmerican]

14. He's not cementing them together.

He's cementing the to the floor.

[yuiyoshida]

15. also here ...

According to Title 18, Chapter 17 of the U.S. Code, which sets out crimes related to coins and currency, anyone who “alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens” coins can face fines or prison time. The same goes for debasing – that is, decreasing the proportion of precious metals – in gold or silver coins struck or coined at an American mint.

[surrealAmerican]

26. Not only is he not "decreasing the proportion of precious metals" ...

... but these pennies are not "gold or silver coins".

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but this man's actions may not be a good example to prove your point.

[missingthebigdog]

58. Intent

the key words here are:

with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued.

Is it his intention to render it unfit to be reissued? In this case, I don't think it matters that the RESULT of the action is to render the pennies unfit to be reissued; that isn't the INTENT.

[tymorial]

7. The pennies can be pryed up and the adhesive removed.

I don't really see this as breaking the law. Anyway, more pennies are thrown away each day than he will use on that floor.

[LittleBlue]

9. A lot of laws on the books aren't enforced

Technically, I don't think gluing pennies together counts as defacing. Lighting a treasury note on fire probably is, but nodody really cares.

[yuiyoshida]

12. again...

Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.

[LittleBlue]

16. I think that is interpreted as tampering

In other words, to pass the currency off as something it isn't.

Anyway, read the second clause

with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued

The glue can be removed from pennies and they can be reissued.

[yuiyoshida]

19. Than there is this...

According to Title 18, Chapter 17 of the U.S. Code, which sets out crimes related to coins and currency, anyone who “alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens” coins can face fines or prison time. The same goes for debasing – that is, decreasing the proportion of precious metals – in gold or silver coins struck or coined at an American mint.

[LittleBlue]

21. Yeah if he were shaving the pennies

for financial gain, he'd be breaking the law.

[mwooldri]

10. I would interpret that code on the basis that...

...the defaced monetary instrument isn't being passed off as money.

If I took a $5 bill, crossed out references to the fact that it was a $5 bill, wrote stuff that said it was now a $10 bill, and I offered that bank note as payment for $10... that's a crime.

Smoking that same $5 is not a crime. Or $100 for that matter.

[yuiyoshida]

13. again...

Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.


So yes, burning a 5 or 100 dollar bill is technically a crime.

[mwooldri]

33. Wikipedia makes for interesting reading.

While technically against the law, the law itself may be unconstitutional if the arguments in Smith v. Goguen in regards to flag desecration applied to paper money.

However by the same 18 U.S.C. § 333 code, it's illegal to burn Euros in the USA, but legal to destroy small quantities of Euros in the Eurozone.

[yuiyoshida]

35. There are a lot of old laws on the books...

some of them silly, like, you are not supposed to put an ice cream cone in your back pocket, on Sundays ...or you are not allowed to walk your mule into the drugstore...stuff like that, that people laugh at, but are still on the books today..

This kind of thing doesn't seem so clear cut any longer...and besides, who pays attention to laws anymore?

[reorg]

17. we used to flatten coins by putting them on tram tracks

after school.



According to Wikipedia, we did not commit a criminal act:

The foregoing statute, however, does not prohibit the mutilation of coins, if the mutilated coins are not used fraudulently, i.e., with the intention of creating counterfeit coinage or profiting from the base metal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_coin

The link to their source is dead, but I noticed the word 'fraudulently' was missing in your quote from the article citing the statute:

"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, ..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/331

[former9thward]

23. A lot of people like to cut and paste when it comes to laws.

They even like to delete a word or two ....

[yuiyoshida]

24. I don't know..but reading the law...

According to Title 18, Chapter 17 of the U.S. Code, which sets out crimes related to coins and currency, anyone who “alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens” coins can face fines or prison time. The same goes for debasing – that is, decreasing the proportion of precious metals – in gold or silver coins struck or coined at an American mint.


Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.

[reorg]

28. That's not the law, it's a fraudulent quote

Here is the real thing:

18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/331

[bluedigger]

18. Probably.

What about these guys?

http://www.rockyrockholt.com/

[Nye Bevan]

22. Of course not. There are "pressed penny" machines everywhere in Disney World (nt)

[yuiyoshida]

27. I wonder if those are really legal

According to Title 18, Chapter 17 of the U.S. Code, which sets out crimes related to coins and currency, anyone who “alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens” coins can face fines or prison time. The same goes for debasing – that is, decreasing the proportion of precious metals – in gold or silver coins struck or coined at an American mint.


Similarly, anyone who “mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued,” can be fined or imprisoned as well.

the law seems pretty clear cut to me.. Of course many laws on the books are no longer enforced and there are some dumb laws... but this is a federal law.. so who knows.

[Nye Bevan]

39. "With intent to render....." (nt)

[Solly Mack]

25. As an aside: Hate pennies? Send them to me.

Box them up and send them my way.

Yes, you do have to pay to ship. I'm not the one getting rid of something I hate, you are.

[ornotna]

31. If I hated them bad enough

I would just toss them out the window. Wouldn't cost me a dime.

[Solly Mack]

41. Heh!

Until you had to clean your yard.

[Wounded Bear]

29. Most of those rules are based on obsolete concepts...

and the facts that money-coins, etc-were actually worth something, or represented a real amount of something. Yes it would be illegal to take a $50 gold piece and shave $5 worth of gold off of it before circulating it back. Even old paper money, though printed on virtually worthless rag paper, represented a fixed amount of silver bullion, so could be tied to that bullion.

Now, all of our money, paper and coin, is worthless in real terms of material used to make it, and only worth what is printed or stamped on it

[yuiyoshida]

38. if it is so worthless, why the effort to stop

counterfeiting?

[BainsBane]

40. I was thinking of covering an old table top in pennies

Either pennies or copper leaf.

[Javaman]

43. must be nice to use money as your flooring. nt

[snooper2]

55. about the same price as cheap porcelain tile

Pennies are about $1.96-2.32/square foot (depending on spacing, plus materials). Not too shabby for a unique copper floor!

Websites dedicated to it LOL...

http://adetailedhouse.com/2012/07/28/cents-and-sensibility-how-to-make-a-penny-floor/

[Javaman]

59. that's if you have money to spend. I do not.

As I stated. It must be nice to use money for ones floor.

[Hortensis]

44. Just secure storage multitasking as a conductive floor...

[hobbit709]

45. You can pretty much do want you want to money as long as you don't try to use it afterwards.

Last edited Tue Jul 7, 2015, 09:16 AM - Edit history (1)

If you're not trying to put it back into circulation its not really money any more.

[Calista241]

46. On the other hand,

If the cops ever decide they want to search his house, and they come across this picture, they should have no problem getting a warrant.

[randome]

49. I throw pennies away. I suppose that's 'debasing' them?

Lock me up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[MineralMan]

50. I did a shower enclosure for a friend. He had thousands of almost worthless

foreign paper currency bills from a wide range of countries, and wanted to use them that way, so I carefully glued them one at a time on panels, and then used poured epoxy casting resin to create a thick clear coat over the panels. I installed this as a shower surround, using clear silicone on the joints. It came out beautifully, and he took his showers after that surrounded by money. There was enough variety in the bills that I could place them in a way that limited duplication, although some denominations and countries appeared multiple times in the enclosure.

Fun project.

[randome]

51. What a horribly misogynist thing to suggest!

The girl is clearly the ringleader.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[snooper2]

52. where is the option for- Who cares and he is an idiot LOL

Dumbest floor idea EVER!

[BillZBubb]

54. No, he is not breaking any law.

It is shocking that some think he is.

[aikoaiko]

56. As with all laws there is discretion to prosecute even when technical violations occur.

[brooklynite]

57. I had dinner at the Four Seasons last night...

they have a settee made entirely out of nickels...



I don't think anyone's going after the artist

[hunter]

60. It's an interesting floor. People cover cars with coins too...

http://historicautoattractions.com/s/Famous_Cars_And_Stars.html

I think copper shouldn't be used for coins, or even plumbing. Mining copper is hazardous to earth's environment. Coins and plumbing can be made from other materials. Living in places with aggressive water, I've grown quite fond of cross-linked polyethylene tubing.

Copper is essential, however, for household wiring and most electrical and electronic devices.

Aluminum has been tried for household wiring, but it's not a forgiving material for electrical work. Poor or damaged connections are much more likely to catch fire than with copper wiring, although aluminum is the primary material for distributing electricity outside or underground.

Modern U.S. cents are zinc with a thin copper coating.

[cyberswede]

61. A tavern near us has a bar top made of over 10,000 pennies

It looks really cool.