July 4th - It's Louis XVI we're celebrating with the tall-ship HERMIONE...

[Surya Gayatri]

The original HERMIONE, Lafayette's famous frigate, would never have set sail from France if Louis XVI had not decided to support the Yankee rebels. His decision to back them led directly to the eventual collapse of his own kingdom.

It's a 'salty' story: the modern French Republic financed the recent reconstruction of a ship armed by the accursed King, part of France's national destiny, Louis XVI himself.

And today, the cheers going up in the Bay of New York in praise of Hermione, might also be intended for the French king, beheaded by a Revolution which in time helped the Republicans to build their ideal .

Active support for the Amercian rebels

In 1778, King Louis XVI, said to be still undecided, finally made a royal decision: to help the American rebels in their fight against Britain, owner of those distant colonies.

France wanted to nullify the shameful Treaty of Paris, signed by Louis XV fifteen years earlier - a treaty that ceded many of France's possessions to London, including Canada, India and Senegal.

For several years, the new king and his minister Sartine, concentrated their efforts on the French fleet, which could finally measure up to that of the English. The time was ripe for revenge.

The alliance with Austria - reinforced by Louis XVI's marriage to Marie-Antoinette - was keeping things quiet on the European continent. It was decided to take the war to the New World with the help of those "rebel insurgents" that France had been secretely arming behind the scenes since their declaration of independence in 1776.

The war was popular at the time, and the courtiers and ladies in the salons of Versailles began to wear model ships on preposterous wigs "to support the troops"!

Lafayette, real hothead

So, Louis XVI armed a large fleet and put it under the command of Rochambeau - seven battleships, 25 transport ships and nearly 6,000 well-trained men, who were to join the 14,000 soldiers of the Continental Army of rebels fighting against the English.

And Hermione? The frigate was sent ahead to inform Washington of the arrival of French reinforcements, with the famous Lafayette on board. He was one of the first to join the Americans, while Louis XVI was still undecided - which is why the Marquis had a reputation as a real hothead. For the American rebels, France's rescue was
just in the nick of time: they were running out of money and supplies.
...

It was the beginning of the end: the king of France did not reverse the situation at home, failing to institute fundamental reforms. The newly-free Americans, with little regard for their rescuers, quickly resumed trading with their former masters rather than with their liberators. Ultimately, Louis XVI won the war but lost the peace: glory and business do not always mix.
______________________

More here in an interesting piece (but in French):

http://www.lepoint.fr/monde/4-juillet-avec-l-hermione-c-est-louis-xvi-que-l-on-celebre-04-07-2015-1942307_24.php

[malthaussen]

1. Which is irony, if you like.

On several grounds, not least of which is that the good Marquis was a revolutionary in the French Revolution.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

2. Yes, and he almost lost his head during the infamous

"Flight to Varennes".

On 20 June 1791, a plot, dubbed the Flight to Varennes, almost allowed the king to escape from France. As leader of the National Guard, Lafayette had been responsible for the royal family's custody. He was thus blamed by extremists like Danton for the near-escape and called a traitor to the people by Robespierre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_du_Motier,_Marquis_de_Lafayette#Conflict_and_exile

[malthaussen]

3. Speaking of which...

Seen "La Nuit de Varennes?" Good flick. I saw it in grad school because we were discussing issues of iconography in the French Revolution. The Revolution, of course, is full of stuff like that, and the film has that lovely scene where the woman curtsies to the royal regalia on the mannequin, which has intriguing implications.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

4. Yes, beautiful period piece, although can't say much for the acting of Marissa Berenson...

[malthaussen]

5. Funny, I don't see her in the cast list...

Tell me they didn't remake it.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

7. Confusing "Varenne" with "Barry Lyndon", of which a critic wrote:

As the tragic beauty Lady Lyndon in the Stanley Kubrick film Barry Lyndon (1975), Vincent Canby of The New York Times stated of her performance: "Marisa Berenson splendidly suits her costumes and wigs."

[malthaussen]

10. Well, that's a relief.:)

I can't think of many remakes that improve on the original film, and this is one of Scola's, after all.

-- Mal

[frazzled]

15. Wrong, but one of the most remarkable gathering of actors

ever, nonetheless. The cast included the godfather of 20th-century French actors, Jean-Louis Barrault; the iconic Italian Marcello Mastroianni; bedrock actress of the New German Cinema, Hanna Schygulla; Actor's Studio stalwart of American movies Harvey Keitel; the French New Wave's Jean-Claude Brialy; and French icons Jean-Louis Trintignant and Michel Piccoli.

Had totally forgotten this film, and can't even remember if it's any good. But having nothing better to do on the 4th of July, I'll see if it's available for streaming on Netflix (though I doubt it).

[malthaussen]

18. It is good.

And directed by Ettore Scola.

Saw it with subtitles, myself.

-- Mal

[treestar]

6. Very interesting.

The French and British were for a long time at odds.

[Surya Gayatri]

8. Still are to this very day. Longest running love/hate thing in history.

[malthaussen]

12. Western history, anyway.

There are longer conflicts in Asia, although they probably should be classified as "hate/hate" rather than "love/hate."

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

13. Point taken...Euro-conflict, let's say.

[KingCharlemagne]

9. The whole thing dates back to 1066 with that pesky Norman conqueror\occupier! :) - nt

[malthaussen]

11. Well, if you want to be technical about it...

... those guys the Normans were fighting were damned furriners, too. They just conquered the island earlier. That piece of real estate has changed hands many times. Not so much recently, though.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

14. Exactly, just what were Guillaume and his gang doing in Normandy anyway?

Band of Viking marauders!!!

"Normandy" (the name) comes from "Norsemen", or those pillagers from the north who just came in and took it.

The Celtic tribes were the only "original occupants", of both Britain and Normandy.

[malthaussen]

16. Hey, some of those Vikings were probably my ancestors!

Actually, probably not. I have no doubt my Norse ancestors were thralls like just about everybody else, although I like to nurture the conceit that I am descended from Eric the Red, because my name is Eric and I am genetically a redhead.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

19. I probably have his blood line mixed with mine.

My Swedish ancestors came from the southern regions where Eric and his marauding hords would have sailed from.

At the time, Norway and Sweden didn't exist as separate political or geographic entities.

[malthaussen]

23. Ha, then we're cousins!

Many generations removed, I suppose. My paternal Norwegian ancestors came to the US in the early 20th century; my maternal Scots legacy goes back much farther here (1750 in the direct line, 1650 in collateral lines). I'd bet at least a nickel that the Norwegians and Scots may have cross-bred a little in the dark mists of time.

-- Mal

[Surya Gayatri]

24. Who knew? Mine came from Sweden at the end of the 19th.

My maternal grandmother was born there.

"Norwegians and Scots may have cross-bred a little in the dark mists of time."

Ya think? The "Danelaw" abutted Scotland.

The Danelaw (also known as the Danelagh; Old English: Dena lagu;[1] Danish: Danelagen), as recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, is a historical name given to the part of England in which the laws of the Danes held sway[2] and dominated those of the Anglo-Saxons. Danelaw contrasts West Saxon law and Mercian law.

Modern historians have extended the term to a geographical designation. The areas that constituted the Danelaw lie in northern and eastern England.

The Danelaw originated from the Viking expansion of the ninth century AD, although the term was not used to describe a geographic area until the 11th century AD. With the increase in population and productivity in Scandinavia, Viking warriors, having sought treasure and glory in the nearby British Isles, "proceeded to plough and support themselves", in the words of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle for the year 876.
...

The language spoken in England was also affected by this clash of cultures with the emergence of Anglo-Norse dialects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw

Viking raids began on Scottish shores towards the end of the 8th century and the Hebrides came under Norse control and settlement during the ensuing decades, especially following the success of Harald Fairhair at the Battle of Hafrsfjord in 872.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrides

[malthaussen]

28. Yep. Those lusty Norsemen were screwing around everywhere...

... I had a lady friend of Russian ancestry. It's quite possible that she and I were related by the Norse migrants in the other direction.

My paternal grandfather was born in Norway, but I never did get to know much about that side of the family. On the maternal side, a great-uncle of mine did a family tree, so I know lots more about that side, both factual and conjectural. (It would appear, for example, that two at least of my ancestors were executed for religious fanatacism... err, "dissent" ... in the 17th century)

Best of all, though, was the lady I knew at the turn of the present century who had the same surname as my maternal ancestors, and whose own ancestors lived in the same area as mine in 1750. You'd think we almost had to be related... except Brown is a rather, shall we say, common name. In 1750, our people lived in York county, PA. Mine migrated to the Pittsburgh area, hers went up the Valley to North Carolina (and still own a mountain there).

-- Mal

[longship]

35. What a wonderful dialog!

I am gob-smacked by this. I, too, am from Norwegian heritage. Of course, I have long been aware of Danelaw -- I paid attention during history classes. But this back and forth brings all that old learning to the fore.

Thank you, Malthaussen and Surya, for this look back. It is certainly what is the best of all.

My ancestors and relatives in Norway seem to be all teachers. My mother's relatives are from Suomi. Alas, that history is clouded in the fog of time. My mother would always say, "A smart Norwegian is the same thing as a dumb Finn." My father would respond with a little verse, "Ten thousand Swedes marched through the weeds to lick one sick Norwegian." And half of Suomi speaks Swedish. Thus, it undoubtedly comes around full circle.

Thank you both for this thread.

My best regards.

[Surya Gayatri]

41. Glad you came by to join in, longship. Those Norsemen

were really something. Totally paradoxical.

They raped, pillaged and plundered their way around Europe's coast, and were feared like no other.

And yet, they advanced trade and cultural exchange at the same time.

Ah, the ironies of history.

[Adrahil]

17. Not even the Celts. Look up Beaker People. n/t

[Surya Gayatri]

20. Tell that to Boudica!! LOL!

[Adrahil]

21. Yeah, she was a late-comer! :)

But I wouldn't tell her to her face. She'd probably put a spear in it!

[Surya Gayatri]

22. Formidable female!

[treestar]

25. Then Henry V annoyed France quite a bit

The English monarchs claiming to be kings of England and France must have been pretty annoying too. The English really thought France was theirs and hated losing it all but Calais, and later they lost that too.

[KingCharlemagne]

27. Not until after Agincourt inspired one of the best speeches in the

history of the English language, right up there with The Gettysburg Address:

But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

~Shakespeare, Henry V

I prefer Branagh's version to Olivier's but YMMV:

[treestar]

34. That captures what a great leader Henry V was

Very inspiring by Shakespeare and there by Branagh.

And yet his son was not so strong - became King too young might have been part of it.

[malthaussen]

36. The only actual quote attributed to Henry, though:

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard."

(Attrib. to Henry V by Jean Juvenal des Ursins)

Which has the virtue of telling us how they ate sausage in the 15th century.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

(Henry V Act III Scene 1)

[Blue_Tires]

26. She was already in Norfolk back in May...

[Surya Gayatri]

30. Saw that. It was covered extensively here in the French media, needless to say.

[oneshooter]

29. Beautiful ship.

I wonder how long it took for the city to issue the permits for the 34 guns on board?

[Surya Gayatri]

31. Now, there's a point. BOOM, and more BOOM...

[procon]

32. Beautiful ship!

When I was a young girl I secretly read my brother's Treasure Island book, and then I discovered the Horatio Hornblower series and I've been in love with these majestic ships ever since.

[Surya Gayatri]

33. I think they awaken the romantic in all of us. That's why

they're still so beloved today.

No to mention that they're just beautiful creations, the artistry of function.

[oneshooter]

38. But never forget that they are ships of war. n/t

[Surya Gayatri]

39. Many weren't. They were ships of commerce, trade and transport, as well.

They carried cannon power for self-defense against pirates.

Then again, some of them were pirates.

[oneshooter]

40. And some were just FAST, and good looking.

http://www.history.co.uk/shows/cutty-sark/articles/history-of-the-cutty-sark

[malthaussen]

37. Try Alexander Kent and Patrick O'Brien.

Or Frederick Marrayat, who is one of the pioneers of the sea story. Actually served in the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars. And his books are free for Kindle (probably also available in other public domain formats).

-- Mal