We're really going to do this again, aren't we?

[BlueCheese]

One reason I've grown to hate politics is the mind-boggling dumbness of our political discourse. Obama talks about how every business depends on infrastructure and support from society, and the GOP takes out the single phrase "you didn't build that" and goes to town. Al Gore talks about how government funding helped lead to the development of the Internet, and everybody thinks he claimed to have invented it. It's stupid, it's insulting, and it makes our politics sound like a squabble among five-year olds.

And it never gets better.

So apparently, Hillary Clinton said this:

“The truth is equality, opportunity, civil rights in America are still far from where they need to be. Our schools are still segregated. In fact more segregated than they were in the 1960s. Nearly 6 million young Americans between the ages of 16 and 24 are out of school and out of work. Think of that. Neither learning nor working. And the numbers are particularly high for young people of color. Statistics like these are rebukes to the real progress we have made. And they pose an urgent call for us to act publicly, politically, and personally.

We should start by giving all of our children the tools and opportunities to overcome legacies of discrimination to live up to their own God-given potentials. I just saw some of the young people attending camp here at church down in the basement. And I was thrilled to see that because that is the kind of commitment we need more of, in every church, in every place, until every child is reached. And I hope we can take that as a cause for action.

I learned this not from politics but from my mother who taught me that everybody, everybody needs a chance and a champion. She knew what it was like to have neither one. Her own parents abandoned her. By 14, she was out on her own working as a house maid. Years later when I was old enough to understand, I asked her. What kept you going? Her answer was very simple. Kindness along the way from someone who believed she mattered. All lives matter.”

And this is somehow construed as being racist? Seriously? She talks about how racism is still a big problem in the United States-- about how our schools are de facto segregated even worse than they were before, about all the challenges facing young people, especially those of color, and how important it is to help every child have a chance. And how did she learn this lesson? Because of the struggle of her own mother, who taught her that everyone needs a chance. Everyone's life matters. Including those people who are forgotten by society-- those children in segregated schools, those millions of young minority people who are unemployed.

How could any reasonable person read those paragraphs and think that this is racist? Somebody just went and murdered nine black people in Charleston in a fit of racist hatred, and this is the kind of speech that people want to magnify and condemn? Even if someone is inclined to look past the plain meaning of Clinton's speech and fixate on her use of the phrase "all lives matter," think about this: If there is one thing that Hillary Clinton is not, it is stupid. And to go to a black church near Ferguson, Missouri, while running for the nomination of the Democratic party, where black voters play a massive role in determining the outcome, and send some alleged coded message to a bunch of racists who won't be voting in the primary, and who won't vote for her in the general election in any case, would be stupid beyond belief. Like, testing if a gun is loaded by pointing it at yourself and firing it stupid.

We have enough real wolves at the door when it comes to race in America. Police brutality. Economic inequality. Segregation in neighborhoods and schools. A nontrivial number of people who are filled with racial hatred and have easy access to guns. Going after someone of obvious good will for a comment like this doesn't help in the slightest. We have to be smarter than that.

[shenmue]

1. Yep

[leftofcool]

2. Yep, they will do it again. Can't help themselves.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

44. Who is "they"? nt

[LordGlenconner]

3. How could any reasonable person read those paragraphs and think that this is racist?

Answer: Because when it comes to her they are simply not reasonable.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

45. Who is "they"? And why are they unreasonable? nt

[LordGlenconner]

53. Why don't you try reading the OP

[ChisolmTrailDem]

55. "Try" reading the OP? Why do you have to be so goddamned rude? nt

[sendero]

4. The problem is not what she said..

.....the problem is that her words are completely meaningless, she will do what she is told by the entities that fund her campaigns.

[BlueCheese]

6. Well, that's a completely different issue.

I'm just talking about this speech and the reaction it seems to have generated among some people. Whether Hillary Clinton is the best candidate is beyond the scope of this post, and a very worthwhile topic for reasonable discussion.

[TM99]

5. Because Clinton and her speech

writers and apparently her followers here are ignoring the reality of social movements.

One BIG one right now is about black lives matter. It is everywhere. It is on TV. It is on social media. It is on graffiti and t-shirts. It is literally impossible to not know about it.

And if you are paying attention, you will also note that the backlash to this movement from regressives is the use of the phrasing all lives matter in response.

So Clinton and her speech writers were simply idiots. Lost in their own narcissistic bubble oblivious apparently to this very reality.

Choosing to use that phrase given the movement in a speech at a black church about racism was just plain ignorant. I will not attempt to mind read. Was she being racist? I doubt it. But it was still just stupid. Pay attention as a candidate to the world around you. Get out of your $2500.00 a plate fund raisers and recognize that social movements are real. The people for whom black lives matter is more than just a slogan or internet meme do care about whether a candidate who is supposedly progressive is paying attention enough to us to think first before opening their mouth and spouting something idiotic.

[BlueCheese]

7. I have to disagree with your interpretation.

There's a huge difference in the following:

"Black lives matter? No, all lives matter."

and

"All lives matter, including black lives-- the ones that people often forget about."

And I think people of obvious good will can say a sentence that in context means something clearly inclusive and not be condemned for it.

[TM99]

25. It is not an 'interpretation.'

Black lives matter is a social movement.

To be unaware of this and the counter movement by regressives is disingenuous.

You obviously do not understand what is being said when the phrase black lives matter is being used.

Please educate yourself. I and others have provided ample links so that perhaps you can get it.

[BlueCheese]

34. Please don't call me uneducated, and don't tell me to "get it".

Do you know what I get? I get that it's 2015 and we still have all these problems in America:

Segregated towns and schools.
Police brutality and discrimination.
Lack of equal educational and employment opportunities.
Restrictive and deliberate voting laws.
Unfair sentencing guidelines and law enforcement.
Endemic racism, both overt and latent, that manifests itself in things like the Charleston shootings.
Etc.

Making progress means fixing things like that. Not crashing down on someone who essentially says that "all lives matter, including the lives of people who are still suffering from everything on that list." We can make sure nobody ever accidentally says "all lives matter" again in any context, whether they mean well or not, and we won't even make a tiny scratch in the real problems we still have in this country.

[TM99]

43. So BlueCheese,

what race are you?

[BlueCheese]

49. I have to admit I'm not sure why you want to know.

Regardless, I'd rather not share that information online. I hope you understand.

[TM99]

51. Because I want to know if

I am being lectured to by a white person.

[BlueCheese]

52. Why would that make a difference?

And to be clear, it wasn't my intention to "lecture" you, but rather to explain that I'm not some ignoramus who doesn't understand that racism is a serious ongoing problem in this country.

[TM99]

58. Why would that make a difference?

I will let you ponder that a bit. Get back to me when you get it.

[BlueCheese]

59. You're crossing the line into being condescending.

Just say what you want to say and stop dancing around.

[TM99]

60. Now that's funny.

I am bi-racial. I really don't want to hear you as a white person tell me why I should or should not be offended by Clinton's fuck up concerning 'all lives matter'.

So who is being the condescending one.

[BlueCheese]

61. I don't understand why your being bi-racial is supposed to help me understand your point of view...

... especially as you haven't said which two races they are.

[TM99]

62. My point of view is of that

of a person of color. Is yours?

[BlueCheese]

63. You keep asking me about my race.

I've already told you that I don't want to share that kind of information online. I'm sorry.

I understand the viewpoint that people who have firsthand experience on an issue can bring a perspective that others might not. So yes, a black person who has been stopped by the police for no real reason brings a view about police discrimination and racism that someone else cannot. A woman who has faced sexual harassment or the glass ceiling has a more informed viewpoint on sexism than someone else. But other people can have reasonable, informed viewpoints as well. For example, Donna Brazile and Bernie Sanders both said that there was nothing wrong with what Clinton said. Even if you don't want to give any weight to what I think, what about them?

Actually, don't answer that. I think this thread has outlived its usefulness, and further back-and-forth will probably be fruitless. Please enjoy your evening.

[freshwest]

8. K&R

[hrmjustin]

9. Her detractors hate her so much that they just can't help themselves.

[okasha]

19. It's spinal reflex by now.

[Fumesucker]

10. Just imagine how GD would look right now if Bernie had said it

[Autumn]

24. No shit, I think Cornel West may have said something nice about Bernie or agreed with him on

something based on some weird ass posts I have seen trying to point out how they are alike or in the same party so that seems to be the new outrage.

[BlueCheese]

27. I've been away.

Are people saying Bernie Sanders is racist too? What on earth is going on here?

[Fumesucker]

48. This thread should clue you in a bit as to how the "Bernie is racist" thing got started

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6737025

And this one will get you up to speed on Bernie's "dual citizenship" with Israel controversy, notice the number of posters who simply refuse to see it as a slur.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026812327

[BlueCheese]

50. I hadn't realized the division into primary camps had already started here.

It's pretty depressing.

Campaigns are good at manufacturing hate. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not.

I ask people to look into themselves honestly and ask themselves this: Suppose you support Sanders or Clinton. Your candidate's opponent says something that could be interpreted either benignly or malevolently. Are you more inclined to interpret it as malevolently now than if these two were not both running? Think to yourself-- would you really be as offended if your candidate wasn't running, or if the other candidate wasn't? Why have you stopped giving the benefit of the doubt to a fellow Democrat?

[seveneyes]

11. It's a drinking problem

[LiberalElite]

12. I don't think it was racist BUT

her including that phrase "all lives matter" was very unfortunate at best.

[BlueCheese]

13. So we should consider it an unfortunate choice of words and move on...

No big deal.

A friend of mine asked a blind person to review something she wrote by saying, "Can you look this over?" Oops. But no offense meant, and no harm done.

[LiberalElite]

14. Huh. I don't think she should have said it. OK? I thought

that was obvious. If you're offended I can't do a damn thing about it.

[RobertEarl]

15. You are correct

Politics makes some people say stupid stuff.

Hillary was quoting her mother, and both of them are correct to say "All lives matter."

Don't let the little smirches upset you. Or you will just burn out before your time.

[BlueCheese]

16. I don't know if she was quoting her mother, or paraphrasing what her mother said.

Or the lesson she learned from it. It doesn't really matter, I don't think. What she meant is clear.

I guess I was just pre-emptively exhausted by what I know will be another 16 months of this. You just know at some point some Democrat will say something completely innocuous, and the media will blow it completely out of proportion.

As Dave Barry pointed out-- in 2004, with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq going on, and any number of issues to discuss at home, we spent a large part of the Kerry vs Bush presidential campaign talking about... the Vietnam War. You just know it's going to happen again, and again, and again.

[RobertEarl]

17. The campaign is a thousand battles

With much blood drawn. That's why they don't let kids vote? <grin>

The best one can do is merely act on their own, and not react to others too much.

[BlueCheese]

20. You speak wisely.

I just saw the news articles, and came here to vent a bit to other politically minded people.

But you're right. There's going to be a lot of this, and there's no point in reacting to every instance of it.

[jwirr]

21. I think she would have been okay had she not said this in a community that is discribed as near

Ferguson MO and in a black church. By connecting the appearance to Ferguson MO she should have followed through with the "black lives matter" version that was first heard in that community.

[BlueCheese]

22. Sure. But it really does seem like people are out there looking to pounce.

She could have avoided this by saying, "Kindness along the way from someone who believed she mattered. All lives matter. Black lives matter."

But you're going to say a lot of words during a campaign. And a lot of things can be taken out of context and turned into something awful. It's just so frustrating that the media keeps focusing on silly things like this. As if the entirety of a person's life and service should be tossed aside due to some willful misunderstanding of a few words.

[jwirr]

23. I think the point is that it is not silly to black people - it is their children getting killed.

[BlueCheese]

26. But in context it's clear what she meant.

She meant that all lives matter, including the lives of black children. The ones who live in segregated school systems, and who are over-represented among the many millions of unemployed young people in this country.

I wonder how many people who hear that she said this actually read the full context of her comments. The articles I saw tended only to report that she said "all lives matter", and why this could be considered offensive by people, without saying what she obviously meant. It's inflammatory and irresponsible reporting that deliberately stirs up trouble and distracts from the real issues that she mentioned. And it never, ever, stops.

The media loves shiny objects. Right now everyone is talking about the Confederate flag. Yes, the display of the Confederate flag on public grounds is odious. But soon it will be taken down, and removed from license plates. And you know what? We'll still have racism. We'll still have segregated towns and schools. We'll still have high unemployment among young black people. We'll still have all the problems Hillary Clinton just talked about. But God help her, or anyone, who uses the phrase "all lives matter", even if they mean it in a completely inclusive way, to emphasize that these underserved and underprivileged communities deserve every bit as much attention as everyone else.

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. Dang, I thought Bernie was the racist, and it turned out to be Hillary.

She is now hoist on her supporters' petard.

[merrily]

28. Sorry. It sounded off to me.

Among other things, what did her mother's poverty have to do with the racist murders of African Americans in a Charleston church?

Her personal wealth, the money she's raising, the accusation that her "dead broke" comment showed how out of touch she was, the Clinton foundations' handling of money, the speaking fees--lots of money issues are problematic for her. Money is a campaign issue for her. Her mother's poverty speaks to that. But, what did it have to do with racist murders of African Americans in a Charleston church?

All lives matter? It's less likely to piss off groups other than African Americans and their stronger supporters. But, it takes focus off what really happened in Charleston. What's been happening everywhere. Roof didn't kill those martyrs because he has no respect or reverence for lives in general. He killed them because they were African American, he is a fucking racist POS and he wanted a race war. And let's be clear where "all lives matter" has already gone: straight to reproductive choice.

This was a carefully crafted speech. That was obvious. Ditto the manner of delivery. But who and what was it about?

[Marr]

29. Way too many hypocrites in this thread.

How many of the responders in this thread were actively twisting Sanders' words just hours ago, trying to make him seem like a racist or claiming their tortured reworkings proved he was 'tone deaf to race issues'?

But suddenly they're oh so concerned with this, an actual (at best) cosmically tone deaf statement, being blown out of proportion. If Sanders had said the same thing, these same people would be going absolutely apeshit with accusations.

[BlueCheese]

31. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

You can see by my post history I've been away from here. I read the articles in the press criticizing Clinton for what she said, and thought I'd get some like-minded understanding.

Now I understand, apparently too late, that we've already divided into Sanders and Clinton camps, and everything that's good for one person must be bad for the other, and vice versa. Are we already at the point where each side is demonizing the other? Is it going to be 2008 all over again? That's depressing if true.

I support both Sanders and Clinton. Ironically, I actually lean more towards Sanders now, because I like his foreign policy and his opposition to the NSA. Is that still allowed? Can we actually defend a Democrat from unwarranted attack without being attacked by others who support the other candidate?

I ask you in particular because I remember I always liked your comments when I was more active. Is it already too late?

[Marr]

36. I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to you.

In the last few days, we've had a handful of posters repeatedly arguing/suggeting that Sanders is either racist, tone deaf to race issues, or just unconcerned with them. They've made the most absurd arguments and twisted words into knots to do so. For instance, one took a statement from Sanders on how race/gender/etc. is used to divide people, and argued over and over that he was only mimicking the right wing line that complaining about racism or sexism is divisive.

Upside-down, backwards arguments, and just plain offensively dishonest. So when I see them clapping and k/r'ing your post, much as I agree with your remarks, I bristle to see some of the same people clap so hard and say, 'see? it means nothing, move on'.

[BlueCheese]

40. Okay, that's fair.

I didn't understand that context when I wrote the post. I honestly thought it was going to be a DU against the media thing, not a Sanders versus Clinton thing.

I already regret posting this thread. I guess I'll leave it, but yeah, I goofed up.

[Marr]

41. Eh, I don't think you goofed up at all.

It's a worthwhile sentiment-- this whole board is just something of a weeping wound at the moment.

[BlueCheese]

42. I think I accidentally fueled a fire that was already burning here.

I've gotten upset and probably upset others. That wasn't my intention. But thank you for the context. I appreciate it.

[Juicy_Bellows]

30. Someone disconnected from the political process may say all lives matter.

I think most of us here would give that person a pass and agree with the statement because it is true on it's face. However, someone running for POTUS should damn well know there is a Black Lives Matter movement and to go ahead and say all lives matter is a bit of a snub to some. I don't take huge contention with her statements but it is obviously a gaff. One that she needn't have made.

[BlueCheese]

32. I can agree with that.

She shouldn't have said it, because of the unfortunate echo it has. And obviously it distracted from her point, which was the complete opposite of what the more malevolent people say. I focused a lot more on the substance of what she said, and I would hope that Democrats would understand that.

I read that Obama said the n-word a few days ago while making a point about racism. What if the only thing reporters said was "Obama Uses Racist Slur" without explaining the context?

[Juicy_Bellows]

33. And FOX news did just that.

Fox had a field day with Obama's use of the word. It was totally unfair but that is what they do. This Hillary speech can be looked at along the same lines I suppose. I don't think she should have said it but I do feel she needn't be crucified for it either. Others may have a different take and I can appreciate that. I think her message was good but her messaging was not.

[BlueCheese]

37. I think that's a very reasonable point of view. I would say I agree with it.

Fortunately, I don't watch FOX, so I didn't hear that. It doesn't surprise me.

I feel like I made a big mistake. I saw articles in the press that angered me about a Democrat I thought was being wronged, and I didn't realize that the primary battle has already started here. I am really surprised that Democrats would think that Hillary Clinton would say something like with ugly intent.

What I really hated about 2008 was when Obama and Clinton supporters convinced themselves the other candidate was evil. I really don't want to see that again. I'm seeing hints in this thread that some people have been accusing Bernie Sanders of similar things. I haven't seen that in the press, but I imagine I'd be equally angry about that.

It's like the Swift Boating of John Kerry all over again, or the dumping on Al Gore because he got which fire he visited wrong. Will the media ever let us have a mature and reasonable discussion?

[Juicy_Bellows]

38. The mainstream media will not I am afraid.

I don't watch Fox news either, I want to be clear about that!

Here is where I got my context/comments:

It's the TYT Cenk take on it with Fox clips if you, or others, are interested.

[Ms. Toad]

35. "All lives matter" is either an intentional slap in the face, or inexcusably tone deaf.

I happen to think it is the former, because - as you point out - she's not stupid. It seems to me an attempt to win white, disaffected voters who believe that they are being shoved aside in favor of blacks, and who might otherwise vote Republican. They are the ones pushing #alllivesmatter as an alternative to #blacklivesmatter in an attempt to deny the systemic reality that black lives (not all lives) have always been viewed as expendable.

[BlueCheese]

39. It would be stupid to insult black voters while running for the Democratic nomination...

in some attempt to chase after racists who won't vote for Hillary Clinton, or any other Democrat no matter what. You'd have an easier time becoming Pope after converting to Buddhism. No candidate would do something like that on purpose.

[Ms. Toad]

46. The alternative is that she is just really, really tone deaf.

Changing #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter - when it is a middle to right wing meme cannot be an accident. Neither (taking black voters for granted, nor being tone deaf) is good.

And it really feels as if she is taking the nomination, and the support of black voters, for granted - and trying to say what she believes will appeal to anyone she thinks might be peeled away from the Republican party in the general election. It is how she has always worked in the political arena, and it is a more logical conclusion than that she is inexcusably tone deaf.

[BlueCheese]

47. Honestly, I think being tone deaf is the far more likely alternative of the two.

Even if (which I doubt) Clinton wanted to subtly appeal to racist white voters in the 2016 general election, it would be foolish to do so in June 2015. Wait until after she has the nomination. If she learned anything from 2008, it's not to take the primary for granted. And insulting the black community and those who are conscious of the problems of racism in America in the Democratic primary is about as smart as running for president of the Humane Society on an anti-cat platform.

Politicians say and do tone-deaf things all the time. Even the ones we like. Remember when Howard Dean said, "I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks." HOLY MOLY! Could there be a more direct appeal to the wrong crowd than that? And yet, if you assume that Howard Dean is not a racist or complete moron, you could sort of see what he meant: that he wanted those people to vote for their economic interests, and not social or racial issues.

People will sometimes accidentally phrase things poorly. I think it's important to not always assume the worst, especially when we have good reason to think the opposite.

[LanternWaste]

54. The wake of thought during primary season is more flotsam than substance in the choppy waters

"How could any reasonable person read those paragraphs and think that this is racist?"

If candidate A says a thing, it becomes gospel, truth-to-stupid, brilliant and heroic in the face of social mores. If candidate B says that same thing, it's merely triangulation, out-of-touch, nothing but words, and tone-deaf.

The wake of thought during primary season is more flotsam than substance in the choppy waters of the internet.

[BlueCheese]

56. That's very well put. nt.

[rock]

57. Your first paragraph clearly shows who owns the media

Both points are stupid and would be flushed down the toilet by a half-ass decent press.

[Fumesucker]

64. We have the very best press money, lots of money, can buy

The best politicians money can buy too of course.