Let's just get it out in the open - who supports right to carry firearms into a church?

[kentuck]

Is your belief in the 2nd Amendment that set in concrete?

Are there no exceptions that you are willing to make?

Is it that absolute for you?

[Cheese Sandwich]

1. I'd have thunk it should be up to the church

[WinkyDink]

121. Really? Like taxes, maybe?

[NaturalHigh]

176. That's my thought.

[theycallmetrinity]

2. Shouldn't that be up to the church and congregation if they allowed it?

[the band leader]

116. sure seems like the obvious answer.

[kentuck]

117. It seems to me that Jesus and Guns would not mix...

If he whipped the money changers out of the temple, what would he have done to the gun people? I thought a church was a house of worship? But I guess it is possible to worship guns?

[the band leader]

118. Jesus got tortured and nailed to a cross. Maybe if he had had a gun...

I'm just sayin".

[kentuck]

119. That probably makes a lot of sense...

...to some people?

[the band leader]

120. Why shouldn't a person be allowed to carry a firearm in church exactly?

as opposed to the grocery store for example?

[kentuck]

125. Churches are for worship.

Grocery stores are for shopping.

It's sort of like going to a nightclub to meditate. It might be difficult to do? Likewise, it might be difficult to worship with someone sitting next to you with a loaded firearm?

Personally, I don't think guns should be carried into either your store or your church and it shows absolute disrespect for the rights of your fellow man.

[the band leader]

129. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


If a church feels that the lawful exercise of second amendment rights is fully compatible with their faith and worship, that's really all there is to it. Even in South Carolina, it wasn't strictly forbidden. the church could have authorized members to carry in church if it was inclined to do so but it wasn't apparently.



Personally, I don't think guns should be carried into either your store or your church and it shows absolute disrespect for the rights of your fellow man.

That's your opinion. That and a dollar might buy you a cup of coffee. However, the stubborn fact is, the firearm homicide rate has decreased as the number of people walking around with concealed handguns has increased. So in actuality, your just kind of benefitting from the actions of other people who choose to carry concealed firearms. You're welcome btw.

[kentuck]

131. When you lose your common sense...

you don't have much left.

[the band leader]

132. when you lose you're right to self defense...

you don't have much left.

[kentuck]

134. When you are so paranoid that you cannot go to church without a weapon...

you have already lost. Are you truly that fearful?

[the band leader]

141. yeah, because nobody ever needs to defend their life while sitting in church

or in any of the other typical mandatory gun free zones for that matter.


it's beside the point though really-first amendment and second amendment and all that.

[kentuck]

143. For some folks, there should be no "gun-free" zones...

Courtrooms, city government buildings, barbershop, kindergarten class, nowhere...

Who knows when you might have to kill someone? That's a great country you envision there. To tell you the truth, it sucks.

[the band leader]

149. and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, there are folks like you

that believe everywhere should be a gun free zone. Another stubborn fact for you, all these mass shooting have occurred in "gun free zones". Mass murdering psychopaths don't seem to abide by the rules it seems.


Who knows when you might have to kill someone? That's a great country you envision there. To tell you the truth, it sucks.

I guess you just don't live in the kind of country that you think you live in.

[kentuck]

154. What do "mass murdering psychopaths" have in common?

Guns. That's another stubborn fact.

What is your solution? Nothing?

[the band leader]

189. complete disregard for gun control laws?

and the various laws against murdering people?

[ieoeja]

185. Mine was the first multi-racial wedding in the county where I grew up in decades.

The last such saw a bit of violence. The wedding was in a Catholic community in the Bible Belt where many of the people still living at the time were veterans of the Klan wars. Over 300 people showed up at that wedding. My dad said there were enough weapons in the trunks to arm a small nation.

Let me emphasis that bit: "in the trunks". These people had a very good reason to actually expect violence on that occassion. But they still left their firearms in their vehicles because carrying a firearm into the church was unseemly.

But that was 1989. The "guns, guns, everywhere a gun" silliness did not start until after the Assault Weapons Ban.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

183. WWRJD

[WinkyDink]

122. Why? We have laws that apply to all businesses and all citizens. Why not all churches?

[the band leader]

130. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise

thereof;

[kentuck]

140. What if half the congregation is against guns in the church?

Should they leave the church or should the gun-owners leave the church? Or should the rules apply that were in place when the church was formed?

Are guns part of any religious group in the world?

[the band leader]

145. the Church's board of trustees can figure it out.

I truly don't care so long as the government hasn't involved itself. The government has no business regulating peaceful and perfectly legal activities occurring within any church, especially regulating second amendment rights. That's double plus unconstitutional. I'm not particularly religious mind you but I do believe in the constitution.

[kentuck]

148. I forgot my Bible but I brought my gun...

Oh, your church doesn't have a "board of trustees"? Well, let us decide for you.

[the band leader]

150. ....

have a good day kentuck. I'm heading out.

[cherokeeprogressive]

3. Should be up to the church.

[kentuck]

6. Should it be a unanimous vote or....

...51%, like in a democracy?

What if 49% were deeply disturbed by the 51% carrying guns? Do they have no right to worship in peace?

[beevul]

14. Private property rights...

Private property rights are not subject to a vote of the congregation.

Do you think they should be?

[theycallmetrinity]

29. What about smoking?

Do you support the state telling private property owners they can't allow their patrons to light up a smoke?

I'm not asking about a private club .

[beevul]

41. Incorrect parallel.

Possession of tobacco/tobacco products = gun possession.

Smoking = shooting.

Since we are discussing a POSSESSION issue and not a USAGE issue...


I do not support anyone other than the property owner telling patrons whether they can possess either of those two things.

How about you?

Do you think gun or tobacco possession should be subject to a vote of the congregation instead of a choice that belongs to the property owner?

[theycallmetrinity]

48. I'm just gauging where you stand on private property rights

[beevul]

52. You didn't answer the question.

I noticed, you didn't answer the question:

Do you think gun or tobacco possession should be subject to a vote of the congregation instead of a choice that belongs to the property owner?

Or do you not want where you stand on private property rights 'gauged'?

[theycallmetrinity]

69. I never thought democracies were a good idea

Maybe when I was young and naïve I did

Not anymore

[calimary]

44. Welcome to DU, theycallmetrinity!

Glad you're here! Actually, in the question you pose - I believe I would support that. As a non-smoker I was always grateful when some over-arching rule would come down, or some law would be passed, or some restriction imposed, that made the smokers go outside. I had a sensitivity to it and cigarette smoke was very bothersome to me, especially whenever I wore the contact lenses that never fit correctly and that I finally gave up on. One time I gently and very politely asked a man at the next table if he wouldn't mind please putting the cigar out, inside the restaurant where we were all trying to eat. Because if cigarette smoke bothered me, sometimes cigar smoke actually made me ill. He harrumphed at me and bellowed - "I most certainly will NOT."

Whereupon one of the guys at our table next to his hollered out - "well some people are just ASSHOLES!!!!!!!" That was a fine moment!

Hey, when people won't cooperate, when they insist on being selfish, when they insist on disregarding the need or comfort or clean air of the person next to them or within their little personal smoke factory, when they absolutely MUST be thoughtless about it, and they won't do it voluntarily (especially when asked nicely and politely) - then I'm all in favor of some larger, over-arching, dominating entity stepping in and MAKING them do it. Sometimes you need an intervention by something bigger than the both of you. Sometimes you need something bigger than the bully - to turn the tables and bully the bully.

That's what regulations are. If people refuse to do the right thing, then maybe we have to step in as a larger entity, and MAKE them do it.

[theycallmetrinity]

61. I'll probably make some enemies here but cigarette smokers

are the some of the filthiest people there are.
Most think it's fine to crush their butts on the ground, in the sand on a beach , out a window while driving , on a hiking trail in the woods or on a path where I like to walk my dogs around a lake .


I posed the question just to see what people thought.

[calimary]

72. I agree. So glad my husband finally gave it up.

But MAN, when I walk our dog around the neighborhood, I am utterly disgusted by all the litter and trash strewn about. And cigarette butts by the DOZENS. It's so bad I have to take several dog-poo bags with me - one bag for what Goldie makes and then sometimes another one - OR TWO - just for trash. And for every coffee cup lid or take-out container or wrapper of energy bars or candy or gum or potato chips or whatever - including cigarette pack wrappers - there are usually at least half-a-dozen cigarette butts strewn around. Frequently it's even more than that.

I keep thinking - that's one more piece of garbage in the Pacific garbage gyre. Or that's one more piece of plastic in the gullet of some sea bird or other creature - that will starve to death with a belly full of plastic and trash and other recklessly-discarded shit.

Just pisses me off like nobody's business!!! I find myself getting really angry - "you mean you have so little courtesy and consideration for your neighbors that you let your kids/gardeners/contractors/friends/visitors/whoevers just leave trash around and you're okay with that? You have no pride in where you live, in your neighborhood where the rest of us have to live, too? Evidently not.

And mind you, that's just the trash and the litter. You wouldn't believe how many people either live here or visit and walk their dogs and crap them wherever - and then just leave it there. Almost every single time I walk our dog, I wind up picking up after her - AND somebody else's dog, too. Sometimes it's brand new, too - we will have just walked there and gotten a block or so away and then by the time we've turned around and headed back up, there's a fresh new dog pie there. Amazing. Sometimes it's not even on the grass or in the weeds next to the sidewalk. Sometimes, it's actually ON the sidewalk itself. Fucking lazy selfish thoughtless assholes! What the hell is WITH some people?????

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Yes, and that's coming from a puff fiend . Welcome !!!

[theycallmetrinity]

67. Please don't take my other post personal about smokers

but I have watched this play out 100's of times on the lake I live on.

Smokers will be careful not to leave a empty cup or soda can but they think nothing is wrong
when they crush out a butt on the ground.

Thank you for the welcome

[orpupilofnature57]

73. At the end of the day I have a pocket full of butts, the least I can do after putting extra smog in

the air, wretched habit that it is.

[theycallmetrinity]

79. You are one of the few

When my wife smoked , she quit over 10 years ago .

I was the one who carried a small plastic zip lock bag in my pocket when we were together on walks.

[dsc]

93. many churches are owned by the congregation

others by the denomination. In either case, there would have to be some sort of vote.

[cherokeeprogressive]

75. I did not know churches were direct democracies.

[Travis_0004]

82. It should be up to the pastor and board

If they disagree with the decision or the board they can take it up with them, or find a new church.

I'm for private property rights so whoever is in charge of the property should make the decision.

[kentuck]

83. The Church of the AK-47 Holy Rollers....

In the Spirit of the Lord. Take it or leave it.

[theycallmetrinity]

39. Should smoking be up to the bar owner?

[cherokeeprogressive]

76. No opinion. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Jeanne Assam supports the right to carry in church. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

5. Same as the confiscation question, Not Me !!! A place for Holy spirit not for making spirits holes,

and anybody needing a gun to go to church is DELUSIONAL .

[kentuck]

8. Thanks!

[petronius]

7. I support the right of any private property owner to allow or bar firearms as

they see fit.

I don't like the idea of government treating religious institutions any differently than other private property in this regard; in a way it's giving religion special treatment, privileging religion over other private settings.

Private spaces can make their own private rules (generally speaking, there are exceptions), and I'll respect those rules...

[kentuck]

9. I'd rather see snakes in a church than guns...

I would feel safer.

[MurrayDelph]

31. That's what Harrah's Reno says

(other places may have it as well, but this was the first place I saw it).

At every entrance, there is a sign announcing that as private property, Open Carry and Concealed Carry (even with permits) is not allowed, and anyone who doesn't like it is welcome to go elsewhere.

[cherokeeprogressive]

78. Good for them!

[orpupilofnature57]

49. Except when ?

[petronius]

63. Except when what? If you're referring to my last sentence, what I meant

is that private property owners can make their own private rules about whatever they want--not limiting this comment just to firearms--but exceptions, for example, would be if those rules discriminated by race or gender.

As far as private property owners being allowed to ban (or allow) firearms I really don't see exceptions (unless we really want to pick nits and say that people aren't able to ban firearms carried by police officers engaged in law enforcement activities, or something like that...)

[orpupilofnature57]

70. OK, GOOD POINT ! That's why we need to scrutinize people carrying guns professionally .

[kentuck]

84. Private property rights supersede everything?

Including the health and well-being of others??

[petronius]

87. No, private property rights do not "supersede everything"

I don't understand how you got that from my post(s)...

[kentuck]

89. What do they not supersede?

Got an example?

[petronius]

90. I gave an example in the post you replied to, it's the ten words

following the phrase "for example"...

[Spatened]

88. Good answer...

[aikoaiko]

10. It should be the decision of the governance board/authorites of the churches.

There definitely should NOT be laws telling churches what lawfully possessed things they can let into the church .

I never understand how it was constitution to ban something in a church that is legal to do on other private properties in the same community. Its really fucked up when you think about it.

[brewens]

11. No guns allowed on blood donors, even cops. The cops are almost always cool about it.

One Washington state county sheriff claims that by law, he has to be armed while on duty and won't comply. Others in his state don't mention that. It could be the one guy is right and the others are unnaware they are violating their own regulations, I don't really know.

In our case there is a good reason. One in awhile blood donors pass out and when they come around don't know WTF is going on. There can be some thrashing about with our staff trying to hold them down to avoid their being injured. The needle can still be in their arm. A cop could instinctively go for his gun in a case like that. They are usually cool about leaving it in their car. I suspect some won't donate because of that though.

[Cleita]

12. I have a suggestion.

Instead of all gun owners getting their panties in a wad about background checks, registration and other ways of keeping firearms out of the hands of sociopaths, how about passing some real strict laws banning private citizens from bringing their arsenals to public spaces, that would include churches, schools, malls and so on. I would define a public space as anywhere you can enter without a key that's open to the public.

Otherwise, keep as many weapons as you like in your house, locked in the trunk of your car, out in the woods murdering innocent animals (hunting will never end) or out on the shooting range. The only people that should be allowed guns in public spaces are those licensed to be police and then that's where the background checks would be useful and a lot strident training.

Anyone caught carrying or trying to hide a firearm would be severely fined and punished. Anyone that shoots said gun gets thrown into prison for a very large time. It's just a thought and damn we have to do something. As a private citizen, I'd like to think I'm safe from some moron legally endangering my life and person.

[kentuck]

16. "I'd like to think I'm safe from some moron legally endangering my life and person. "

To some gun-owners, it doesn't matter how you might feel.

You don't have a right to be secure from the nuts in our society. They would rather nuts have guns than to make any kind of sensible gun reforms. Why, they might put your name into a data base and they would come in the middle of the night and take your gun, who knows??

It's the third rail of Republican politics. Nobody dare to touch it.

[aikoaiko]

17. The horse is way out of the barn on that one.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

33. Wow, my red state actually held off on that particular insanity until 2004.

That must have been when Repubs finally took over the statehouse.

[orpupilofnature57]

50. + 1000 Well Put !!!!!!

[beevul]

55. "Registration" can not keep the guns out of the hands of sociopaths.

See the 5th amendment for more information.

[Cleita]

60. That's why I suggest we tackle this from a different perspective.

Have all the guns you want, but make you keep them out of public spaces or else.

[CanonRay]

13. If businesses can ban firearms on their premises

surely a church may do so?????

[Cleita]

15. I think a church would have an obligation to to keep their

parishioners safe.

[kentuck]

18. Praying: "Wait a minute, God.."

"Let us check and make sure the automatic weapon is set up at the door before we begin prayer, OK??"

[Cleita]

42. I went into bars up in Alaska back in the sixties that you had to surrender

weapons at the door, to be returned to you when you left. It was to keep the patrons safe from shooting each other after some drinking, and card playing would lead to disagreements. If barkeeps in the Last Frontier thought it was a good idea, wouldn't it be an even better idea in a church where children and other innocents are gathered?

[kentuck]

53. I think Wyatt Earp might have come closest to a solution?

Leave your guns at the edge of town before you enter...

[Cleita]

57. I think many towns in the developing West at the turn of the last century came

to the same conclusion.

[orpupilofnature57]

80. + 1000 !!!

[HereSince1628]

24. A church might have a role in promoting the concept of vulnerability

I think it depends upon the church/congregation.

[gwheezie]

19. How come you can't bring a loaded weapon to a gun show

The people running the gun shows might know something.
We don't allow weapons where I work. It's not a private business. We don't even let cops bring their weapons onto the unit where I work.
I try to stay away from people I don't know who have a weapon on them.

[calimary]

35. I'll bet they don't allow guns inside the grounds of the republi-CON Convention next summer.

I'll bet everyone entering has to go through a metal detector and frisking and let's-look-in-your-bags and stuff. Which seems crazy and kinda hypocritical to me. Why would they care? Hey guns everywhere! Guns guns and more guns! Yahoooooo!!! And happiness is a warm one, too, like the Beatles said. John Lennon even sang lead on that. And probably still would be if he hadn't been permanently silenced by one.

[beevul]

43. Most of the gun shows I've been to, allow concealed carry/open carry.

But then that was a number of years ago in AZ.

Guns that were for sale/trade were zip tied open at the breech/action.

Guns carried concealed/openly were not regulated as such.

[gwheezie]

94. Not in virginia

Nope. Not in Virginia. You cannot bring a loaded gun into a gun show.

[gwheezie]

95. Any of them loaded?

Did you carry a loaded weapon into a gun show?

[beevul]

114. If I remember right they were.

I have never carried a gun, with the exception of around the property at the farm.

[Cleita]

45. Good point and a So. Carolina State Senator said the same yesterday.

Legislators know the dangers which is why guns are screened for in their chambers and buildings because of the danger, yet they won't legislate for safety from guns because they are afraid of the NRA and gun lobby.

[Katashi_itto]

20. No. I support Rocket Launchers and Flamethrowers though. Possibly Nuclear Hand Grenades.

I draw the limit at anything more than a 500 Microtonne Grenade though.

We must defend ourselves!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

25. The First Congregation of Saint Truckasaurus

Sunday Sunday SUNDAY!!!!!!!!!

[Katashi_itto]

37. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. My choice is the holy hand grenade

[Art_from_Ark]

190. If a killer rabbit is on the loose,

that's the only thing that will stop it!

[sarisataka]

65. What about fruit?

[Katashi_itto]

81. +1000!

[safeinOhio]

21. What are you doing in a Church

if you think prayer won't protect you?

[onecaliberal]

22. No, not ever, at any time.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. Why would a church be any different from any other building?

I mean, if we carve out some special exemption for churches, doesnt that just make it that much more of an open season on us non-believers?

[gwheezie]

96. Like schools, hospitals, gun shows

Government buildings. Try walking into a court house. There are lots of places that don't allow guns.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. I'm not defending the "right" of people to bring guns into any building they want.

I'm just questioning why churches specifically ought to be singled out.

[gwheezie]

98. I'm not trying to argue

But its not like churches are singled out. You can't bring guns to sporting events. The state and county fair. There are varieties of private and government owned venues where you can't bring a loaded weapon because the event cannot get insured.

[calimary]

26. NOT me. NOT EVVVVER!

Yeah, pretty much it is an absolute for me. I can't think of a worse desecration of holy ground than to bring death toys in on it.

Hey, the CONS throw the word "death" around like a set of juggle balls. They add it to everything they don't like. Remember death panels? Well, if they can, then I can, too.

Guns = death toys.

[Frustratedlady]

27. The Republicans keep screaming forefather this and forefather that...

Well, my belief is that the "forefathers" must be whirling in their graves when they see the guns the Republicans and NRA are referring to. I'm sure they never...in their wildest dreams...could imagine machine guns or all these auto-whatevers (you can see I'm not gun savvy)...when the 2nd Amendment was written.

It was a much simpler time and their guns were used for survival. Today's mega-guns might have been made for sport, but they are being misused and abused as weapons of mass murder by those who should not have possession.

If the NRA and Republicans want guns to be allowed in public buildings and for open carry, they need to only be owned by responsible citizens. These two groups certainly aren't showing much promise in this requirement. The Repugs can't even fill a clown car that meets that criteria.

I see no reason for anyone to own machine guns or these guns that can hold magazines that allow the stupid to fire mega times without reloading. Keep your rifles for hunting and hand guns, if you feel so threatened. But, let the rest of us walk through life without fear of some nut opening fire on us in a grocery store or at a baseball game to feed his ego.

Oh, by the way, I don't allow guns on my property and if I had to shoot, it would be with a camera.

[X_Digger]

104. Actually, the 'founding fathers' knew of semi-auto weapons.

The girandoni rifle (carried by Lewis and Clark) fired a .50 cal round ball from a 20 round tubular magazine at speeds approaching today's 45 caliber.

[Frustratedlady]

106. You caught me! I knew that didn't sound right...

but I have a monster headache and settled for forefathers.

Some days you can't win.

[X_Digger]

107. It gets forgotten a lot. We seem to think that our generation has / had all the ideas (good or bad).

There have been some crazy-assed guns in the centuries since a chinese bloke looked funny as his fireworks.

[Person 2713]

28. The NRA does and that stance supports them finacially

[edgineered]

30. The church is not robbing you of every cent, just 10%. Bring pea-shooter. nt

[sarisataka]

32. The church should have

The right to prohibit ir allow as they wish; the same goes for businesses and private residence.

[calimary]

56. Welcome to DU, esreveR!

Glad you're here. I must add, though, that whenever someone makes the point that "Law Blah-blah-blah got passed and it sure didn't keep Crime Blah-blah-blah from happening", I go directly to "well, then, the answer is we just sit here and do NOTHING??????????"

You've GOT to start SOMEWHERE.

Doing nothing is not an option. Doing nothing is the surest way to guarantee that whatever happened WILL DEFINITELY happen again.

[kentuck]

58. Didn't the Governor of SC recently sign that bill??

That permitted guns in churches?

[mcar]

36. Not me

Not on college campuses and no armed teachers either.

[littlewolf]

38. there are 6 people in our church that the pastor has asked that we carry

everyone is CCW and 4 of the 6 are LEO's 2 state police 2 county
2 of us walk the ushers to the office with the collection.
not all of us carry all the time.
but there is always at least 3 of the 6 armed.

[kwassa]

109. You can shoot anyone that steals from the offerings.

A progressive church, indeed.

[pnwmom]

178. Is your pastor being paranoid or are you in a very high crime area? And if this is a Christian

church, what is the Biblical justification for this supposed to be?

[littlewolf]

187. we have had 3 break ins at night when no one was there and he is concerned

that they may try when members are there …
we also have video monitoring of the doors and parking lot.

[LAGC]

40. Churches can ban all the weapons they want.

Something tells me though that someone who intends to do harm isn't exactly going to stop and surrender his at the door, just because they aren't allowed.

Rules and regs only work insofar as people recognize and choose to obey them. The irony is, those types of folks aren't the ones you need to worry about. Rather, it's the assholes who simply don't give a damn.

[beevul]

47. In the case of the recent shooting, SC bans guns in church.

In the case of the recent shooting, SC bans guns in church. So much for separation of church and state...but anyway...

That ban failed utterly to achieve anything, except nudge the law abiding into not bringing them.

Why would people who wont obey when the state says you cant, would obey when the church says you can't.

I just don't get it.

[polly7]

46. I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.

A gun ...... in church?? Just ... why??

But I'm against guns anywhere but for hunting (for food) and to protect one's home and farm. I think carrying them out in public, concealed or not, is ridiculous, and I will never understand the need for it.

[Cleita]

62. ++++

[Art_from_Ark]

191. If I attended a church where people were toting guns,

I'd find another church.

[wyldwolf]

59. According to some it depends on what state you're in

[Duckhunter935]

64. Leave it up to the church

For me. Just like any other business.

[Hoyt]

66. Only in limited cases should gun yahoos be allowed to carry a gun out of their home.

[L0oniX]

71. Just because I can does not mean that I will ...and I won't.

I will feel safe in my church and I am not going change that or carry into a church because of some asshole killer.

[99Forever]

74. I support the right ...

... to consider any scuzzball that "open carries" anywhere, anytime, a cowardly, moronic asshole.

[rock]

77. Whatever institution or business owns the place/building should have the say

Notice that Congress has already decided that no carrying is the way to go in the Capitol.

[w0nderer]

85. old days

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_porch

aka vapenhus (weapons house)

i.e. in olden days no one was allowed in armed

sanctuary (yet another word forgotten)

[RichVRichV]

86. I agree that private property should be allowed to choose.

However when it involves private property open to the public it should be implicity denied. What I mean is that if nothing is posted at a business or church then the right to carry should be assumed invalid. If the private business wants to allow guns then it should have to explicitly state so, not the other way around.

[krispos42]

91. Churches are private property

It is within the church's rights to decide the issue as well as how it is enforced. Anything from a posted sign to airport-style security if they decide to be a gun-free zone.

Of course, lacking active security, a sign is merely a sign. As was proven a couple of days ago.

[Cleita]

100. But when they open their doors to the public the rules change. Ask any business owner.

But I agree they should care about the safety of their parishioners and our legislators need to make laws that help them do that.

[krispos42]

102. It does to an extent

For example, you can't have "whites only" church.

But a dress code, for example, is okay.

A bunch of people in an enclosed space are ripe targets for madmen. The problem isn't the person who has a concealed carry permit. Who carries routinely, every day, a handgun in addition to his cell phone and wallet and car keys.

It's the guy who decides to stuff a gun in his pants so he can kill a bunch of random people to make some kind of "statement".

Lack of a concealed-carry permit will not stop him. A state law against bringing concealed guns on church property will not stop him. A posted sign on the church will not stop him.

[Cleita]

112. Your argument is so tired, even caffeine won't fix it.

I traveled on ships a lot when I was a kid because my dad's job made it necessary. Back then, when you were on the ocean, it was a sovereign nation. There were rules to keep every one from killing one another in a confined space and keeping weapons locked away and not easily obtained was one of them. Only the Captain had full authority about that and could unlock them. Sure a weirdo would sometimes break the rules and hurt someone, but there was no lassez faire rules aboard a ship, nor should there be in a church, a movie theater or any other place like that.

[CTyankee]

139. This line of thought is what I call the "NO CAN DO" philosophy of the pro gun movement.

Stop trying to even work on this problem, it says. Give up.

And I always point to how this country did some pretty awesome things that were overwhelmingly daunting at the time. I point to winning World War 2 and putting a man on the moon. Both efforts cost lives but our lives would be worse, even in the case of war horrendously so, if we hadn't. And we ended slavery and gave the vote to black males and eventually all females. We ended de jure racial segregation in this country, an effort that also cost lives. And today no one would seriously argue that we go back on that progress.

"Persistence has, and always will, solve the problems of the human race."

[ieoeja]

186. "Who carries routinely, every day, a handgun in addition to his cell phone and wallet and car keys."

According to the 2011 FBI Uniform Crime Report, the #1 reason for homicide is "shot during an argument". Therefore, the person most likely to kill you actually is a person who carries routinely, every day since they are more likely to have that gun to hand if they lose it during an argument.

The #2 reason didn't even come close. In fact, almost half of all homicides were by decent, law abiding people who lost their temper.

[kentuck]

110. do they also decide whether or not to pay taxes?

Or do they have some sort of "public" exemption?

[krispos42]

111. They can apply for non-profit status.

The legal construct that is the church's financial existence has several ways of being organized as either a for-profit or non-profit entity.

[Lizzie Poppet]

92. I consider that to be up to the church.

It's none of my business. But if a church elects to ban weapons on church grounds (as was so often the case in many periods...creating a sanctuary), I'd honor that. Not that I'm likely to be in a church any time soon.

I have no problem with prohibiting weapons on certain types of government/public property: courtrooms, legislatures, parts of airports, etc.

[Township75]

99. The church can decide about its property just like I can decide about my property.

Seems fair.

[WinkyDink]

123. Well, frankly, you cannot. Try, e.g., building without a permit.

[Township75]

188. What building have to do with carrying firearms?

The OP is specifically about firearms on property. Not building by you sure tried hard make it about building. Why?

[peacebird]

101. I do not support open carry in public places.

[benld74]

103. I HAVE A RIGHT TO - BARE ARMS! ESpecially when its HOT outside~~~

[Iggo]

146. Sun's out, guns out. Know'm say'n?

:strongpose:

[Initech]

105. Absolutely not! We need less guns in our country, not more!

[Rex]

108. I think it is a really stupid idea, like taking it into a hospital or school imo.

Or a public mall. People just way to easily kill others without second thoughts about it in 2015. Others are unbalanced due to their extreme hatred for someone or some group. The real terror is when these individuals become cops and judges and politicians and make sure the White Identity Movement keeps on top of black people and other minority groups.

How about leave the gun at home? More likely to have it used against you by someone trying to rob you. And of course the white controlled judicial system is kept full and well over the quota of young black men in prison. There is much profit it in. White people, yeah sure they are there too. Paid for prisons are great...still back to a church, the KKK use to burn black churches to the ground.

And powerful politicians just looked the other way while judges kept and still do enforce Jim Crow laws on innocent black people. Guilty for being black, even in a church. Can't Pray In Church While Black.

This insanity needs to stop and it will take a lot since the GOP is the Heart of Dixie. Their worst kept secret is that they like Jim Crow laws.

[Snobblevitch]

113. The leaders of a church in Minneapolis

have a group of parishoners who carry concealed handguns in the sanctuary to protect those in attendance.

http://www.kare11.com/story/news/local/2015/06/18/members-of-minneapolis-church-carry-guns-to-service/28959951/

[kentuck]

115. In my humble opinion...

If you still support carrying guns into churches, after Newtown and Charleston and other tragedies, you are not much of a "Democrat"...

[gollygee]

124. I don't mind people having guns in their houses

I question how often people are protected vs. how often someone in their family is hurt or killed by them, but if it's in their house it's their issue.

I don't like people carrying guns around. Transporting them to go hunting or a firing range, fine. Carrying them around everywhere, no I'm not OK with that. I am totally opposed to the whole concealed carry thing. 100%. I don't like not knowing if some person with road rage, or someone who goes off on someone in a parking lot, or whatever is carrying a gun.

[kentuck]

126. They disrespect the rights of everyone else to live in peace and to feel unthreatened ...

in their daily lives. I would not go to a church where people were armed. One of the Ten Commandments, which we study in church, says "Thou shalt not kill"... Guns are meant for killing. They do not belong in churches or anywhere else in a civilized country.

[gollygee]

127. It's becoming like the wild west

I took my kids to the park and there was a guy pushing his little girl on the swing, and he had a visible holstered gun. What the hell was he expecting was going to happen at the park?

I don't like concealed carry, and I don't like people wearing them where you can see them either. I just don't want them out and about. People can leave them at home.

I don't care what other people think. I feel strongly about this. It creates a threatening environment and I don't like having to live in that environment.

[kentuck]

128. Gunowners seem to trust strangers with guns...

...moreso than they would trust a scientist talking about climate change.

[Snobblevitch]

133. Actually,

the 5th Commandment is Do Not Murder. I think King James changed it to kill when his translation was made.

[kentuck]

135. Sounds like a quibble.

Where does it say "Thou shalt not murder" ? Did you get that info directly from Moses?

[Snobblevitch]

136. I read it somewhere.

There is a signoficant difference between kill and murder.

[kentuck]

138. I would say that the church is no place for either...

Why do we have the "conscientious objector" law for the military? Because they don't believe in "killing" or because they don't believe in "murder"?

[Snobblevitch]

155. Some a Christian denominations

have the conscientious objector provision as part of their beliefs, others do not.

Go back and read post #113 and watch the video.

[kentuck]

159. I watched it.

It is not a church I would want to go to. They seem to have more faith in guns than they do in God. God will not protect them but their gun will? Totally anti-religious, in my opinion. What "denomination" do they belong to?

[Snobblevitch]

177. I went to their website.

It appears they are nondenominational.

I belueve that God protects those who take action to protect themselves. The church in question had members who were threatened and the church took action to protect them.

Why the quotes around denomination? Are you unfamiliar with the word?

[kentuck]

179. Because you said. "some Christian denominations..."

and I wondered what "denomination" they were? Do you other examples of churches that have armed themselves or is this a very rare occurrence in our country?

[Snobblevitch]

184. Nope,

I saw this story on local news and I tbought it was interesting enough to post a link on this thread.

Your use of the quotes when they were apparently not needed threw me off.

[whatthehey]

137. Nope - the word is "ratsach"

It is used in the OT to refer to death in war, death by wild animal, and even allowable execution of a criminal. Its etymology is to tear apart, but it's used to refer to many kinds of violent death to which "murder" is not applicable.

[Snobblevitch]

157. I was using an English translation that may have

been inadequate, but it does differentiate it from the word kill. Is there a better word in English to translate from Hebrew?

[whatthehey]

175. Well the most common translation is "slay" but again it's any violent death really

Given the roots a more technical preference may be "rend asunder" in flowery language or "rip apart" in the vernacular.

When it's a word used for both executions and animal attacks it's clearly, in a linguistic sense, not confined to murder.

Now in the context of a list of moral prohibitions there is a fair argument that connotation can lead to an accurate inference of murder, as clearly the God described in the Pentateuch does not disapprove of either death in war or capital punishment, both cases where the same word is used. But I fear this is modern lenses at full blast. There's nothing to suggest any widespread contemporaneous Jewish equivalent of Jainism's blanket prohibition of any killing (the slightly similar Essenes for example came much much later). That said though I think a prohibition on needless causing of death makes at least as much sense, and probably more, as a prohibition on murder alone given the context of both language and history.

So IMO, and O is all anyone can have at this point, it's best thought of as "no needless slaughter", which certainly includes but is not limited to murder, while still allowing the very-much divinely sanctioned killings in war and "justice" as seen at the time.

[CBGLuthier]

142. Well I too shall put it out in the open

Fuck Guns and fuck those who think they belong in churches and other places where one would fucking hope that decency and common sense would prevail over the incessant need to go everywhere ready to kill another human being.

Just saying.

[bigwillq]

144. Should be up to the church

I support leaving it up to the church or business to decide.

[kentuck]

147. I cannot imagine a church in this country that would vote to have everyone armed.

It is out of touch with everything religion is supposed to stand for. It is not the product of a healthy mind, in my opinion.

[bigwillq]

152. If they vote against it, fine.

I have no issue with that.

But I feel it should be up to the church to allow it or not.

Even if they vote to allow, not everyone would carry. Some would, some would not. Some parishioners would probably find a new church; and some new parishioners would probably join.

[Agnosticsherbet]

151. No right is absolute. Carry a cross, crescent, or zion or other holy symbol

into places of worship, not a gun.

[madville]

153. What's allowed should be the property owner's decision

Regardless, a shooter won't care if guns are allowed or not in a specific place, restricted carry zones won't stop mass shootings because a shooter isn't concerned about committing a misdemeanor or trespassing charge.

[kentuck]

156. A property owner's rights do not extend beyond his own property...

It does not extend to the public's right to move about freely and to live without fear. If criminals or psychopaths interfere with the public's right to these freedoms, then the public has a right to make laws to correct the problem.

[madville]

160. Problem is criminals and psychopaths don't follow laws n/t

[kentuck]

163. So we should make it easier for them to get more guns...

...knowing that they do not follow the laws? Or do we prefer to arm ourselves to the teeth in hopes of killing them before they kill us? Is that the smartest idea we can come up with?

[LWolf]

158. At DU?

I don't really know, but I'd expect that not too many think that's an appropriate venue for firearms.

Constitutional amendments? It's funny which amendments are disposable depending upon one's point of view. In reality, it's the interpretation of the amendment that is key, and that goes for the 2nd amendment, as well.

[kentuck]

161. I cannot believe that very many Americans would support bringing guns into their churches...

I may be wrong? But I think some people have a dangerous interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. It's almost to a level of sickness, in my opinion.

[LWolf]

171. Yes.

I think it's a reaction to threat; I've experienced it myself, although not about guns.

I think anytime we think that someone is threatening our autonomy we react defensively, and, in more extreme cases, offensively. It triggers an amygdala hijack.

It happens to all of us; when our emotions are engaged, reason is often short-circuited. Political and religious propaganda of all types take full advantage of this phenomenon.

People who live in fear and hate are particularly susceptible to this kind of manipulation. Which doesn't, of course, excuse acts of hate. I think hate is a mental illness, which is why I won't use the word lightly, and I do my best not to engage in hate.

Those obsessed with guns live in a state of fear and insecurity, and their guns can't cure them of that.

It might be a good conversation to talk about the purpose of, and a reasonable interpretation of, the 2nd amendment.

What was the original purpose? Does that purpose still apply, or is there another reasonable purpose?

"Arms" have evolved; what kind of "arms" fulfill the original OR evolved purpose of the 2nd amendment, and in what context?

I don't really have any answers. I've never owned a gun. I've been more concerned with other rights.

[kentuck]

172. I think it is difficult to deny that we live in a violent society...

...and that guns are a big reason for that violence. The solution for some is that we need more guns? And then we will have less violence?

[LWolf]

174. That solution

doesn't care about the level of violence, as long as "we" are on the winning end of any violence, guaranteed by having more and more powerful weapons to "defend" ourselves with. It's a short-sighted, narrow-visioned, enabling of fear and hate, rather than a real solution.

I think that our culture revels in violence, and that the hunger for violence, and the resulting fear, is fed through numerous pathways.

[hrmjustin]

162. My parish would never allow guns in our church.

Guns do not belong in church.

[kentuck]

164. Of course not!

It's antithetical to everything in our religious heritage as a nation.

[petronius]

173. And your parish should have the option to decide that for itself, IMO,

through whatever mechanism your parish relies on to make decisions. In general, I don't think that a religious entity (or other private entity) should be required by law to bar guns, nor prevented by law from barring guns within its own property...

[B Calm]

165. No, church is not a place for guns. Why

would a real christian carry a gun in the first place?

[kentuck]

166. They have more faith in their gun than they do in their God..

I suppose? The Ruger is my Shepherd. I shall not want....

[B Calm]

167. LOL, so true. A real christian wouldn't have any fear of being killed.

[kentuck]

168. And they will give us 3 excuses before the rooster crows...

[ileus]

169. I do....and I do.

If the safety of myself, family and students isn't "good and sufficient reason" nothing is.

No it's not absolute....I don't carry into areas that are posted no "firearms"

[kentuck]

170. So there is only a 50% chance of you getting blown away?

Since you don't carry in the "no firearms" permitted areas?

[ileus]

181. Nope I just refuse to break the law, and try to limit my exposure

to buildings / business that don't take my safety seriously. In those instances being aware and alert, like always, is 90% of your safety...


Like here at the hospital....I keep a Kimber pepper blaster here in my desk, but my trusty sidekick the LCP is outside double locked up.

[lebkuchen]

180. the 2nd amendment needs to go the way of most Magna Carta statues

in the shit-can, because it's outdated, misinterpreted, and completely harmful to US citizens. Whether guns can be carried into a particular church or the bathroom of a local restaurant is irrelevant.

[Elwood P Dowd]

182. I own two shotguns and a revolver (two of the three were inherited).

Since I live out in the country on a small farm, I sometimes need one for a poisonous snake or a rabid wild animal. Haven't shot any of them in probably 2 years, and that was just to make a loud noise and scare off a pack of stray dogs.

I think they should be totally banned from public places, especially schools, bars, churches, retail businesses, govt offices, etc.. There are just too many incompetent, insane, trigger happy, and unqualified people out there buying the damn things. I learned to properly and safely use them from my father on his farm. We were borderline poor back in the 1950s and early 1960s, so we would hunt to help put food on the table, not for sport. Then got even more training during my 2-year Army hitch (Vietnam Era).

The majority of people who own them and want to carry them in public have the IQ of a turnip.