Sensationalistic Burning of the Confederate Flag is Not the Answer

[FlaGatorJD]

First off, I have never been a fan of flag burning, due to it's
aggressive nature and inane symbolism. In my perfect world,
humanity would have one flag. The earth on a white background.
That way, no one could burn the other guy's flag
On second thought, a rainbow would be just fine too.

Is the purpose to incite violence and add fuel to a Summer
of violence and racial tension our country hasn't seen in decades,
while at the same time stoking the burning embers of the sordid
history of our civil war, while rubbing a little salt in the wound?
The actions of the shooter in SC are horrific, but a calm and
intelligent response doesn't involve burning anything.

While all of my ancestors are from South of the Mason-Dixon line,
and some fought for the Confederacy, I totally support it's
removal from all government buildings, and now we need to
proceed in an expeditious manner to get it done. I have never liked,
or supported the flag, due to it's association with slavery, but for some,
who are not all racists, they are conflicted due to their Southern heritage.
For those in the North, the Confederate flag represents only one thing.
It's a black and white issue. (No pun intended)
If you're from the South, it's not. There's a little more to it.

Many Southerners see the judgment or criticism of the Confederate flag,
as judgment of their ancestors and heritage. Again, you may not
believe it, but not all people in the South are racist, but if they're from
here, they're Southerners. Some who support the flag are merely proud
Southerners, some are just insensitive, and yes, unfortunately,
some are ignorant racists.

While I understand this may require a bit of patience and something we
call manners, I would wager that now that the great people in SC
have the whole world watching, if given a short time to reconsider,
they will do the right thing and take the flags down. I really don't
anticipate it will take that long now. Not that a massive protest wouldn't
help move things along. Just leave the flag burning out of it.


Ok, but I'm wondering. After they're done in SC, are the flag burners
gonna burn all these flags too?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

[HassleCat]

1. Just don't do it

You're right. Burning the flag does not get it taken down. Let's concentrate on the goal, not just the anger.

[FlaGatorJD]

8. Thanks

I appreciate and understand that people are angry.
They should be, but anger rarely leads to rational behavior.

I wasn't sure anyone would agree, but I had to say it.
I fully expect major blowback, but perhaps that will diffuse
some of the anger. I'm good with that.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. It is a vile symbol of racism.

Burn the crap out of it.

[MineralMan]

3. That battle flag symbolizes slavery and racism.

That is a fact. That is the heritage it represents. It also symbolizes the traitorous Civil War, fought to preserve that heritage of slavery and racism. If that is the heritage of the former CSA, then it should be taken down everywhere and never displayed again. So many died because of that vile banner.

I think it should be treated the same as the Nazi flag, frankly, which also symbolized hatred and racism.

It is an offense to equality and humanity. It gets zero sympathy from me. I'm afraid I must reject your request. The history of racial violence in the former CSA states is inextricably tied to that slavery flag.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. Yes, it's a judgement of their ancestors and heritage. That's the problem.

Their ancestors fought for the right to keep people as slaves.

I absolutely don't think that they should be expected to feel ashamed of that - collective responsibility is the devil's doctrine; no-one should ever be ashamed (or proud) of anything except their own actions - but I do think that everyone should recognise that those ancestors were wrong, and acted wickedly.

The point of attacking the confederate flag is, precisely, to attack that aspect of the heritage of Southerners, and I think it is probably right to do so.

[Hoyt]

5. Many southerners try to call their vile racism, "heritage" or something.

Anyone who supports flying a confederate flag, confederate memorial day, and such, is a racist -- pure and simple.

[TheMastersNemesis]

9. It Is The Same As Germans Embracing The Nazi Flag Today.

The confederates were really no different than the Third Reich. They inflicted similar misery and death. The cruelty of slavery and death last for generations until the civil war. Slavery may be gone officially, but many Southerners still embrace it.

The tragedy for many white southerners is that they embraced a cause that really did not help them either. Many poor southern whites who fought were no better off than blacks and were slaves to plantation owners (the man) but they were convinced to fight the plantation owners and power establishment's cause.

If anything Confederate soldiers were willing victims. Embracing the confederate war dead as victims would seem to be more appropriate. They were actually fighting against their own long term interests.

[Nye Bevan]

36. Are you aware that there was conscription in the Confederacy?

The poorer conscripts did not have a choice about fighting. But rich people who were conscripted could legally hire someone to fight in their place.

[OneGrassRoot]

13. ^^^ Yes. They may be delusional in thinking they aren't racist...

but, they are. If their heritage and values are tied up in the Confederate flag, they hold racist beliefs.

Plus, Confederate paraphernalia is found all over the US (I even saw it in Canada), and the people displaying it are not from the South. It is a wink-wink acknowledgement that, "I think the same way you do about 'those' people."

[bluedigger]

6. Burn it and piss on it's ashes.

It has no Honor.

[yuiyoshida]

7. They could put up the flag of

Major league baseball, for all I care, so long as that flag is gone.

[Juicy_Bellows]

10. How long do you think it will take them before they remove the flag?

Me? I don't think it is coming down any time soon. I would like to believe your last paragraph but I don't see it happening. I hope I'm wrong.

[FlaGatorJD]

16. IMHO it will take less than 30 days

The court of public opinion is louder than ever now, and here's an
example of how some places are starting to do the right thing:

Nashville restaurant removes Confederate flag artwork
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1077572

I expect they will call some type of special hearing soon.
I've been accused of being an optimist, but I hope
I'm right on this one.

[Juicy_Bellows]

18. I hope you're right on this one too!

I really do, time will tell. I hope there is a watershed moment and the symbol largely disappears to history.

cheers!

[FlaGatorJD]

39. Perhaps it will take less time than some expect

Hooray! Let's all hope so



http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/south-carolina-governor-to-call-for-removal-of-confederate-flag-report/ar-AAbXAw4?ocid=SKY2DHP

[pnwmom]

11. Most of us don't judge ALL Southerners. Just the ones who wave the Confederate flag.

There's no way around it: the Confederacy was started to fight for property rights -- the right to hold humans as property. That is the reason the South fought the civil war, and that flag honors that fight.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. The author fails to understand that I do in fact harshly judge their ancestors and their heritage

why is that hard to understand? It's my right to judge slavers and those who fought to the death for the right to human chattel.

[FlaGatorJD]

15. Actually, your judgmentalism and condescension are crystal clear

Nothing too complex here

Obviously, you have every right to judge.

Since I'm not sure some of you noticed, or if it matters,
but I DO NOT support the flag and I DO support
removing it from all government buildings, and it wouldn't
bother me if I never saw one again.

I don't support burning any flag, which is likely only to incite more violence.

[Nye Bevan]

37. Washington and Jefferson owned hundreds of slaves and never freed any during their lives.

Presumably you are equally harsh in your judgment of those two.

[randome]

14. Who said it was?

Why does the solution need to come from one direction only? It is a 'messy' problem that can't be solved by one action.

Destroying the symbol may help alleviate the problem of racism. It will never be the 'answer' to racism.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[backscatter712]

17. Fuck that shit. The Confederate Flag is the Dixie Swastika.

I don't give a fuck what the racists think. They are scum, and their symbol deserves to be defiled.

Those who defend slavery and treason deserve no respect.

[FlaGatorJD]

19. How about all these other flags?

We gotta burn these too?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

[Warren DeMontague]

28. If someone buys a flag, it belongs to them, they can do what they want with it.

Flags arent magic talismans. Nothing actually happens when someone burns a flag, other than a flag being burned.

[Duppers]

32. Exactly. It represents racism = Dixie Swastika.

Except for 3 yrs in the UK, I've lived in the South all my life and have never known anyone who displays that flag not to be a racist.

[NuclearDem]

20. Sorry, I already bought the marshmallows.

[FlaGatorJD]

21. You might need a bigger bag

[pinboy3niner]

24. You forgot to add the image...

You're welcome.

[NuclearDem]

25. Of course. A lot of traitor flags needing burned.

[struggle4progress]

23. Dunno. Some polarizing controversy might be very effective right now

[hatrack]

26. Yes, let's keep "reaching out" since that's worked SO FUCKING WELL

Let us "find common ground" as we begin a "national conversation' in our search for "healing and closure", "in a bi-partisan manner", of course.

Naturally, we must "strive to bridge the divide" with the likes of Ted Cruz, Ted Nugent and Ann Coulter, remembering to always "respect the unique traditions and family values" of Strom Thurmond, the "distinctively American beliefs" of David Duke, and the "proud patriotism" of Lester Maddox.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Burning it is speech just like flying the damn thing on private property is speech.

It's a symbol of hundreds of years of oppression, torture, murder and servitude.

If people want to fly it and defend it and loudly proclaim thir unrepentant assholery, fine. But they can't get all weepy when other people burn the fucking thing. They should grow up.

[choie]

29. Southerners are right.

It IS a judgment of their ancestors and heritage - their ancestors were traitors and their heritage is based on that fact. Period.

[Duppers]

33. +100

[Demit]

30. "This may require something we call manners"?

Yes, we have something called manners where we're from too. But our idea of manners leans more toward not proudly flying symbols of racism.

[davidpdx]

31. I don't condone flying it or burning it

Certainly burning a Confederate flag is only going to inflame the current situation. Right now the last thing we need to do is make it worse because that is just what this little asshole (that shot the people in the church) wants.

I do think the confederate flag should be removed from every state building not only in South Carolina but in other states as well. If a person wants to fly it on their private property, there is not much that can be done. Let them do it.

Disclosure: I'm from Oregon and was born in California. The only two states that I have been to that would be considered southern are Missouri and Virginia.

[Rex]

34. Wow, you wanna call it sensationalism? That is just sad.

What is more sensational than flying a flag high and proud, that represented slavery and oppression of the black race? Just too hard for the racists to come out and say it. Or they go on Foxnews and have help being coached by professional racists.

This is all like the garbage of watching RWingers cry innocent about being racist while watching them support racists agendas. I guess it comes down to who is so stupid to drink the GOP kool-aid and who won't.

Eyes don't lie.

[Jamastiene]

35. The fact that they are flying that flag on government property in SC

right after 9 people were murdered because of the color of their skin is the salt in the wound that I see. Last time I checked, this "Summer of violence" you are talking about has all been going in one direction, white people killing black people.

SC has had more than 150 years to "do the right thing" and remove that flag and quit being so assholish. And as far as your question about state flags that have that in their design too, they have been doing the same and need to "do the right thing" too, but they haven't either. They have had all this time to do it and they haven't. No amount of time will make them reconsider.

The only place that flag should be is in history books and even then ONLY if it is necessary to even show it.

The designer of the original style of that flag said this:

"As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals."
—William T. Thompson (May 4, 1863), Daily Morning News

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

That one was square, but still the same design other than the shape. There is no middle ground on that flag. It IS racist. Anyone who claims otherwise is full of it.

The latest terrorist who murdered a bunch of people JUST for the color of their skin really loved that flag too. The KKK also loves it.

In their study of Confederate symbols in the contemporary Southern United States, the Southern political scientists James Michael Martinez, William Donald Richardson, and Ron McNinch-Su write:

The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

I don't get your stance on this. People are being murdered just for the color of their skin and you care about scraps of cloth? Why defend a stupid flag when people have lost their lives due to the hatred that flag represents? People who fly that flag are not fooling anyone. How about treasonous confederates and other racists who are flying that flag, stop terrorizing and murdering people instead? Think that is possible? I am beginning to wonder if it is. Every time we turn around, another terrorist comes along to terrorize people of color again.

I was born and raised and live in the south. Only some of my ancestors fought on the side of the south. The majority fought for the Union. Guess which ones are racists to this day. The side of my family that fought for the south are consumed with racism. They wallow in it. They can't even have a family Christmas dinner without sitting around complaining about black people. If they want to stew in poison, they can do it without me. My family from up north are the ones that fought for the Union. They are not racist nor do they fly that flag. They never even bring up the Civil War.

I'm sick of seeing the thing everywhere I turn. The more of them people burn, the better, as far as I am concerned. If racists can use it to terrorize people using 1A as their excuse, then anyone who burns it should have 1A rights too. It's treasonous to be flying the thing in the first place.

[MrScorpio]

38. Burn, baby, burn.

[kcr]

40. Your post is a perfect example of the difference between the north and the south

Those who claim there is no difference are in denial. I'm not claiming there is no racism other places, but southerners clinging to the flag and denying the racis shows just how much more deeply intrenched it is the south.

[FlaGatorJD]

42. I will attempt to respond, but your post really doesn't make sense

I'm gonna assume you meant I was denying racis(m), and that it was more deeply "entrenched" in the South.
No, in fact, I was not, but yes, it's sad to say racism is more deeply entrenched in the South, where it started,
although NY, PA, CT, & a few other Non-Southern states have active KKK groups, and other hate
groups, as well, all recently counted by the SPLC. So it's really not accurate to characterize this as
a North/South issue, and to do so is unnecessarily divisive.

Nor was I clinging to the flag. Never have, never will.

I was merely saying that the burning of the confederate flag as
a form of protest right now was just not necessary and was likely to incite
more violence, AND that with a little patience, the people in SC
would do the right thing.

As it stands, it appears cooler heads are prevailing, and we
will see that damn flag come down soon!


I sure hope so

[kcr]

43. You were merely saying that southerners view the flag differently

It's right there in your post. And I was pointing out how that's a perfect example of how things are different in the north and the south. Your pointing out my typos noted. Thanks ever so much. That really makes a difference on the internet. Pointing out typos. Good job. Your attention to detail must make you proud.

[FlaGatorJD]

49. I agree with your second post that "southerners view the flag differently", not the first

one where you stated: "southerners clinging to the flag and denying the racis"

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "denying racism".

I "merely" was saying that calls to have public burning of the Confederate
flag, before SC leaders had a chance to "do the right thing", was unnecessary,
and likely to incite violence. I am a proponent of non-violence, and burning
anything doesn't sit well with me, nor is it an efficient form of protest,
unless inciting violence is the purpose.

However, perhaps we can have a celebratory bonfire when the flag comes down!


If your claim, which appears to be in synch with others here,
is that all Southerners deny racism, you're wrong. Period

[kcr]

50. No, I meant that I need to go to the store today because I'm out of milk.

Yes of course I meant racism. Your ability to decipher typos is excellent! Again, good job, I say.

Go ahead and disagree. But if you think it's unnecessary, it shows where you stand.

[FlaGatorJD]

51. Ok, so now that we're clear that you believe all Southerners deny racism

It really doesn't matter to you what I say, or where I stand, does it?

[kcr]

52. 9 people shot dead, sad.. But, oooh! The south bashing!

It's so awful! DUers are so mean! The pain! The paaaain!!!!!

So glad I moved away.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

41. Just wrap it up and put it in a box

or shred it

[Orsino]

44. Why should we cede the power of symbolism to the other side?

They can revere that flag all they want. I am completely down with anyone who wants to show disdain by burning it.

That flag helped make the South burn metaphorically for so many decades. Return the favor.

[WinkyDink]

45. I'm TIRED of even THINKING of, let alone CARING ABOUT, what might "incite" LOW-LIFE SCUM. OKAY?

[Orsino]

46. There is no "the" answer. And why should we cede the power of symbolism?

That flag oversaw the literal and figurative burning of the South for many decades. If the white nationalists want to revere it, why should we not burn it?

It doesn't have to be an "answer" to anything. Catharsis is useful, and in the case of burning this flag, might steal a bit of the enemy's power to serve us.

[One_Life_To_Give]

47. The Flag was corrupted

The Flag was corrupted when the Klan embraced it as a symbol of hatred.

I have a respect for soldiers who fight bravely and honorably. Be it the men who fell in Pickett's Charge or the Sailors on USS Houston & HMAS Perth, at the Battle of Sunda Straight. But saluting honorary behavior on the battlefield belongs to the unit's colors. When hate groups co-opted the Confederate Naval Jack and Army of Northern Virgina regimental colors they dishonored the men and women who carried those colors and whatever honor that might be due for valiant actions under fire. And they consigned it to the dust bin of history, no longer fit for use. Just as the Swastica's use on the Afrika Corps colors has taken away any valor there.

[LanternWaste]

48. A waste of time pandering to the lowest common denominator.

"Many Southerners see the judgment or criticism of the Confederate flag..."

A waste of time pandering to the lowest common denominator. A greater waste of time defending the lowest common denominator.

"After they're done in SC, are the flag burners gonna burn all these flags too?"
The greatest waste of time is pretending these flags are being bunt in any relevant number (that specific pretense does not requite patience nor manners-- only fiction)

[KamaAina]

53. Shouldn't it be a black background

speckled with a few constellations of white stars?

[FlaGatorJD]

54. That sounds really nice KamaAina

That put a smile on my face

Thanks

Your avatar would make a nice flag too!