Here's a White guy about to stab a Black guy in the chest with an American Flag.

[WilliamPitt]

This didn't happen in Charleston, or Montgomery, or Tallahassee, or Richmond, or Biloxi. This happened in downtown "liberal" Boston during the busing riots, which happened because White Bostonians didn't want Black kids going to school with their kids.

Just a quick reminder to all the non-Southerners who may be feeling a bit superior after recent events. If you think your town isn't riddled with racists, too, you're badly deluding yourselves.

[we can do it]

1. Yes.

[AllTooEasy]

57. Complete BULLSHIT Post! False Equivalency

Racism exists all over the world, not just America, but the extent of it in the South is unmatched. I'm tired of these bullshit posts from (Probably)White Southerners implying that they generally aren't any worse than other Americans when it comes to racism. The ONLY people that believe that crap are WHITE SOUTHERNERS! These posts either mean you are too oblivious to see the extent of YOUR problem, or you're maliciously trying like Fox News to convince Black folks to dangerously underestimate it. Maybe White non-Southerners will buy that $hit, but it takes me 1 full day in the South(VA, NC, and LA) for my Blackness to experience otherwise.

This poster reminds me of the Repukes who say they embrace Blacks as much as Democrats because Black Republicans exist too. Whatever! The first step to solving a problem is to admit it, and this "Look, Racism in Boston Happened" Crap is just another attempt to falsely dilute the perceived extent of Southern Racism.

[cwydro]

61. No, this actually happened in Boston.

Sorry if it annoys you to realize there is indeed racism in other parts of the country.

I've lived all over this country, and it is everywhere.

[Missn-Hitch]

135. Please help

Can you point out in AllTooEasy's post where the realization of racism is everywhere occurs? Are you saying, AllTooEasy is not aware that racism is everywhere? That it was shock to see the photo from Boston that brought on this annoyance

I agree with the false equivalency accusation. All I need to do is look at the election map. It is the same false equivalency put out by Palin and other members of that coven that try to portray Democrats as the ones who are racist because - prior to civil rights legislation - the south was indeed democratic territory (not denying there are Democrats who are racist). Just look at the south prior and post civil right act.

Racism is different (but certainly present) in all states, but the south, come on. There isn't any equivalency!!

I hear the south will rise again....well, then. Let's get it the f*** on! This time, I would hope traitors to their country will be treated as such. Lincoln took it way too easy on them, IMO.

[npk]

142. So you want a race war

One white person in the south who commits mass murder suddenly represents the south wanting to rise up and fight a war. Wow.

[Missn-Hitch]

154. I guess it is just a river in Egypt.

One white person in the south commits mass murder (domestic, racial terrorist attack)? I guess you are right if you are talking about this one particular incident BUT out of how many terrorist attacks on black people?

So, not a race war. It would be white people, 3 black people, 5 Hispanics, 30 Asians, and 70 others VS. the rest of us. I just keep waiting for the south to rise again. Yawn. Sons of the confederacy - haha. Sons of traitors that were not dealt with properly the first time around.

I can't wait to visit the church next year and sit in on a service.... and I despise religion.

[npk]

156. I cannot take your seriously

I suspect you are trolling. This murderer wanted a race war, but he failed. He failed because he expected that a black person would in return shoot up a place where a lot of white people congregate and that he would get his wish, and that is riots in the street. Unfortunately for him the African Americans in this country proved to be bigger than this clown as they always have in the past. They, like I, realize that this murderer does not represent the majority of people in the country, regardless of race, and that is what most people are seeing on display in the aftermath of this tragedy. Sorry the Sons of the confederacy are typical cowards and they are not up to giving you or anyone else that war.

[Missn-Hitch]

157. Eh, not bad.

I don't want war but if they want one.....

Have a good day.

[npk]

158. Good day also

I see these cowards all the time. They don't mind if some 21 year old does their bidding, but they know if they ever tried to start a war, even in the south, they would get their asses stomped. Because even the bigots in the south know they would get steamrolled.

[we can do it]

87. No it isn't. Racism is alive and well here in Ohio. Ask Tamir Rice.

No one is saying there isn't a problem in the south, we are saying it's a problem everywhere in the US.

[Recursion]

121. The south is the only part of the country where white and black people see each other regularly

The rest of the country hid their racism with more effective segregation than the South had.

Source: having lived in both Mississippi and Boston.

[quickesst]

130. that didn't take long...

...for someone who, like Republicans, can stare facts straight in the face, and pretend they don't exist.

[catbyte]

134. You're wrong, AllTooEasy. I remember the riots in Boston. I also remember the Stuart murder case

in 1989, in which Carol Stuart, 7 months pregnant, was allegedly murdered by "a Black man" in an attempted carjacking/robbery, according to her husband, Charles. He was also shot in the abdomen. There was a brutal, wholesale dragnet of African American men that tore Boston apart. Come to find out, Charles Stuart murdered his wife & shot himself to deflect blame. He ended up committing suicide when his accomplice, his younger brother, confessed. He had told his brother it was an insurance scam, but didn't tell him he was going to murder his wife. He had his brother meet them at a predetermined place in "the ghetto" & Charles handed off a bundle of stuff he told his brother to destroy. His brother found Carol's engagement ring which Charles said "the Black guy" stole & couldn't live with the knowledge.

Bigotry in Boston and other northern cities is alive and well. We just hide it better than in the south.

[Missn-Hitch]

138. I believe the point is "false equivalency", not

that racism ONLY exists in the south. AllTooEasy's post says NOTHING about the non-existence of racism in other places than the south.
I translate from the post - racism is MUCH worse in the south, do you not agree?

Back in my Navy days, two black men were talking about racism. One was from Michigan and the other from Georgia. The one from Georgia said something to the effect, "I know I am not liked in the south because they let you know to your face. In the north, they do it behind your back". Point taken BUT the south is the south. Keep deflecting to "the north is just as bad", it may continue to ease the minds of some southerners but I am not fooled.

[catbyte]

140. I really don't see how saying that racism is just as bad in the north as it is in the south

would somehow make southerners "feel better" about their racism. I don't follow that line of "logic" at all. It's despicable and it's wrong and it exists everywhere.

[Missn-Hitch]

155. Maybe you and I are reading the responses to AllTooEasy's post differently...

that is how I see it.

I agree with your 3rd sentence.

Have a great day.

[Brickbat]

2. The Soiling of Old Glory.

Apparently he was swinging the pole at him. The point stands, of course.

http://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/04/04/a-flag-a-busing-fight-and-a-famous-photograph

[WilliamPitt]

4. There's another version of this photo

with the point at the top buried in his belly. He was interviewed by the Globe some years ago. Said he didn't regret it one bit.

[MindPilot]

13. I guessing from the next sentence, the interviewed "he" was the white guy.

Do we know what became of the black guy?

[WilliamPitt]

14. He's OK.

Globe interviewed him, too.

[Brickbat]

15. Ted Landsmark's nose was broken (from a punch), and he has gone on to do a lot of work in art and

architecture.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

103. YES!

Ted was president of the Boston Architectural College until recently. A wonderful man the victim of an ugly, hateful crime.

[MADem]

102. He is a well-respected Bostonian who continued to work within city government

and in education. His name is Ted Landsmark, he's fairly well known in the city.

[oberliner]

34. No there isn't

That is total BS.

No version of the photo "with the point at the top buried in his belly" exists because no such thing occurred.

There is also no interview where he says he didn't regret it one bit.

Both of your claims are not true.

[csziggy]

42. William Pitt may be thinking of this review of a book about the incident

At Boston.com (is that the Boston Globe site?):

Reframed
The passions of Boston's busing era, captured in a notorious photo, come alive again in a new work

By James Sullivan
April 6, 2008

<SNIP>

"My life has been a lot more interesting than the twenty-second moment captured in that picture," Landsmark tells the author. The committed activist, a mayoral appointee under Ray Flynn and Tom Menino and now president of the Boston Architectural College, emerges as a true hero. Born in Kansas and raised in East Harlem, Landsmark had, the author writes, every reason to flee Boston after the assault, "every reason to be angry and unforgiving." Instead, "he stayed and served with distinction."

As much as he tried over the years to move beyond the photograph, Landsmark has recently come to terms with it, the author reports. He now keeps a print of it in his office, hanging near another recent acquisition - the 1856 lithograph that depicts the free black man Crispus Attucks, first to die in the American Revolution, at the center of the Boston Massacre.

Rakes, on the other hand, remains an enigma. The busing debate, as he told the Globe in 2001, stirred blind fury: "For the kids that were my age, it always just seemed so one-sided."

<SNIP>

In an afterword, Masur describes his anguish over contacting the "flag kid," who finally calls while the author is exercising at the gym. As it turns out, Rakes never actually connected with Landsmark when he swung the flag at him; the victim's nose was broken by another assailant's punch. As Rakes tells the author, he regrets that his conviction was based on the implication that the blow had landed.

"Life goes on," he says.

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2008/04/06/reframed/?page=full

[oberliner]

44. Which confirms that the image described does not exist

Also, nowhere does Rakes say "he didn't regret it one bit" in that piece.

[WilliamPitt]

65. See post 64.

[JTFrog]

86. Why? You are still wrong.

You say that photo exists?

....prove it.

You can go sit down now.

Edit: Just have to say that this reminds me of a certain ACA post.

Sometimes it helps to have a clue what you are talking about if you are trying to make a point.

[rhett o rick]

106. There is no call to be rude.

[JTFrog]

120. Did you say that to Pitt....

Being as how I was basically using his own wording to someone else.

You are right. He shouldn't have been so fucking rude when he was wrong as usual.

Reap, sow and all that.

[rhett o rick]

133. So you are using the "he started it" argument.

I guess that is justification for being rude back, "Reap, sow and all that. " So you are just "reaping" back.

Seems to me that some here are more interested in attacking the OP author than discussing the point of the OP.

[JTFrog]

143. And some here are interested in facts.

I know, I know... it's a crazy world.

[7962]

43. But they'll live on forever, just like so many other inflammatory rumors.

"Hands up dont shoot" still lives, even though the Justice Dept says it never happened.
People STILL believe that no Jews went to work in the WTC on 9/11
etc etc

[WilliamPitt]

64. Hm.

Searching the Boston Globe archives, top story on a search for "flag anniversary south end" retrieves:

BEYOND THE FLAG'S FURY A QUARTER-CENTURY LATER, JOSEPH RAKES WANTS NO PITY, OFFERS NO APOLOGY
Farragher, Thomas; Boston Globe; (Apr 2, 2001), p. A.1

First four paragraphs:

The flag he once waved as a weapon sits benignly now in Joseph Rakes's cabinet, a folded colorful relic, 100 miles and 25 years away from a Boston that, like the flag-keeper himself, no longer smolders with rage.

Forever preserved in a fateful photograph that became the most enduring image of Boston's tectonic struggle to desegregate its schools, Rakes is focused on a future far from the South Boston neighborhood he finds increasingly unfamiliar.

But, like the man he assaulted on City Hall Plaza 25 years ago this week when he used the staff of the Stars and Stripes as a lance, Rakes cannot quiet the whispers of his past. He has adopted a keen sense for secretive glances from new co-workers and acquaintances, who still recognize him as the angry young man from Southie.

"I still hear the comments. People say, `That's the guy with the flag,' " said Rakes, now a laborer on Boston's Big Dig, during a recent interview. "It's no big deal. It rolls off my back. It's ancient history when you think about it. That's more than half my life ago."

...and that other picture does exist.

You can go sit down now.

[MADem]

85. Rakes doesn't regret it, and the picture you describe does not exist.

Both the photographer and the victim have said the flag never connected with Ted at all. He was injured by fist and foot, not by that flag.

Elsewhere in this thread someone posted a link to every picture that Forman took of that incident.

[fishwax]

80. There was a Boston Globe article where he said he didn't regret it

You can find the article in this pdf document here (pages 64-67):

"You can't even say you regret it because it's such a minute part of my life," he said. "Regret it? A lot of people regret things, but what good is that going to do? You can't change it. It's something that happened. That's all.

"I'm over it" (67)

[Duckhunter935]

52. lets see it then

[WilliamPitt]

66. Post 64.

It's no longer a link.

[Duckhunter935]

68. so you can not show the picture

I guess it must not exist.

[MADem]

81. The photographer says the guy was swinging the flagpole and the swinger didn't connect.

The victim concurs with the photographer's assessment. It doesn't make the image any less horrific. From an article that ran in the Boston Globe:

As the student protesters approached Landsmark, Forman, detecting a malfunction with one of his
camera's motor drives, started shooting manually, frame by frame. And then his lens focused on Joe
Rakes and Ted Landsmark.
"A couple guys were yelling, ‘Get the n****r!’ " said Landsmark. "My nose got broken because one
of the guys hit me in the nose. And that, in part, is what knocked my glasses off. But I could see the flag
coming. It was a big flag. But the flag-bearer was swinging it. The appearance in the photograph is that he
was trying to impale me on it. In fact, he swung it at me, and I was able to lean back just enough that it
didn't actually hit me. Thank God."
But Rakes's near-miss did nothing to diminish the emotional power of the photograph. As he
witnessed the attack from his office overlooking the plaza, then-mayor White said he realized his city had
absorbed a stunning symbolic stain that would take years to fade.....

The perpetrator, OTOH, does remain unrepentant. The interview you are probably referring to is found at the above link. He has kept that flag and seems to have accommodated himself to living with his reputation.

[melman]

147. There is no such photo

[haikugal]

3. I remember that horrible time but never saw this photo....racial violence, as American as apple pie.

[mindem]

5. How do you know if te guy with the flag

is from Boston and not Charleston, or Montgomery, or Tallahassee, or Richmond, or Biloxi? Just asking. It's wrong where ever it is happening - some areas are worse than others.

[WilliamPitt]

12. He's from South Boston.

Still lives there today. The Globe interviewed him on the anniversary of the photo. Said he didn't regret it a bit.

[MADem]

101. No, he does not live in Southie and hasn't for years.

He was commuting from southern Maine when he was working on the Big Dig.

Your facts are out of order, here.

[JTFrog]

122. Facts, schmacts.

I get the impression that some folks think facts are merely annoying details when trying to score political points.

[Recursion]

127. I thought he was from Maine? (nt)

[ms liberty]

6. Thank you, Will...

I'm southern, white, and live in the rural south. We've got more than enough bigots, racists and fools, but we're not the only ones. It's not just the south that has a problem...it's America that has a problem. And we all need to stand up and call it out, at every opportunity.

[cwydro]

60. Yes.

[gollygee]

7. There is certainly racism here in Michigan

and anyone with the delusion that racism is a southern thing needs to read the book Sundown Towns.

Website about the book and project: http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/sundowntowns.php

and book: http://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483

[llmart]

123. Absolutely!

I live in Michigan. Moved here from North Carolina. Thought I'd seen/heard enough racists when I left NC only to find out that Michigan is no different. Actually, I think Michigan racists are more blatant in their racism.

[Sheepshank]

8. Long ugly history or racism isn't over yey

How utterly shameful

[virgogal]

9. Oh man.that's old news !!

[mopinko]

10. dont need to tell me. chicago

is about as racially segregated as it gets.
where i live now is quite diverse, but believe me there are pockets of white privilege all over town.
i remember well the outrage in the pretty lily white neighborhood that i used to live in over the chicago housing authorities plans to build "scattered site" housing. they all decried the "projects", but they sure didnt like the solution.

and ask the local dfa'ers about the campaign to replace il speaker mike madigan. his district is probably the most deeply racist corner of town. disgusting people. just disgusting.

[murielm99]

31. Yes. Chicago is very racist.

I am told that Madison is just as bad, and it is known as a liberal enclave.

P.S. Leave Speaker Madigan alone for now. He is a bulwark against the Ruiner. We need him and his power, or this state is going to go down the tubes, like Wisconsin.

[mopinko]

62. tru dat.

i am just worried about what his price is to sell out.

[HappyMe]

11. Not limited to any state

or area of the country.


USA! USA!

[Rebubula]

136. Or, for that matter.....

....ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD


Humans, Humans, Humans

2 people can form a society - 3 will create an outcast.

[NuclearDem]

16. When did Massachusetts outlaw slavery in its borders?

Did Massachusetts fight for new territories entering the Union to allow slavery?

Did Massachusetts join with other slave-holding states in act of rebellion to keep holding their slaves?

Does Massachusetts continue to fly the symbol of that union in front of their capitol building?

No? Then they're not the same thing.

Yes, racists exist everywhere in the US. I'm a Hoosier, my state is practically the home of the modern Klan, but the South has been the most concentrated, persistent, and worst problem area of anti-African American bigotry in this country since the 18th century.

[WilliamPitt]

17. Boston baked beans

were originally created as fodder for slaves in the Indes during the Triangle Trade.

Glass houses.

[NuclearDem]

20. Massachusetts outlawed slavery willingly in the 18th century.

Georgia had to have its major cities razed to the ground and forcibly occupied for years to give it up. In the 19th century.

No matter how many racist pieces of shit live in Northern cities, the South, having disproportionately needed abolition and desegregation forced on them, has zero room to throw stones back.

[BlueJazz]

30. You got THAT right !

[Glassunion]

32. That would explain all the hate groups in Mass...

I think the only state in the early colonies that has clean hands on slavery is VT.

Try visiting a pub while black in south Boston. I have the broken nose to prove it.

No state in the union is free from hate groups. Not one.

[bvar22]

35. I've always found it historically ironic......

...... that the Army of The North fought a Civil War to "Free the Black Man", and after successfully "razing it to the ground",
turned this very same Army to the West, and murdered all the Red Men, and "razed" their villages to the ground, killing them ALL....men, women, and children.
Genocide.
Ethnic Cleansing to make The West safe for White men.

Same army.

Do you share the same fascination with the Ironies of History that I do?

[paleotn]

58. Interestingsly....

....the free the slaves part was played down and save the union emphasized throughout the war in order to maintain northern unity, particularly when it came to the midwest.

[NuclearDem]

75. Since you're a student of history

you'll note that the Civil War was not actually fought to abolish slavery, but to preserve the union...which was jeopardized by the secession of slaveholding states who saw their economies in jeopardy from a trend of abolition in the rest of the country.

Don't worry, I'm certain the Confederacy would have been much, much nicer to the Natives than the evil, evil Union that can do nothing right.

[bvar22]

77. So your answer is :

NO! You don't share the same fascination with the Ironies of History that I do.
You are unable to even admit that the same Army that Freed the Black Man,
committed Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing of The American West.

Do you have the same resistance to mirrors in your home?

[NuclearDem]

79. What on earth are you talking about?

No, I was correcting your ridiculous premise--the revisionist history that the Civil War was fought to abolish slavery, made ironic by Manifest Destiny in the West--by correctly stating the war was fought to preserve the Union.

Where you got the idea I don't acknowledge the crimes against the Natives done in the name of Manifest Destiny I have absolutely no earthly clue, because I've said absolutely nothing of the sort, ever.

But then again, you were the one who moved the goalposts, not me. I've just come to expect that of you.

[bvar22]

89. "Manifest Destiny"...LOL

Cute Words for:
Genocide & Ethnic Cleansing.

...and you still haven't answered my question,
so no goal posts have been moved.

[NuclearDem]

90. I did answer your question. If you didn't like the answer, tough.

Your question is based on an inaccurate interpretation of history--in this case, the casus belli of the Civil War--and was completely dishonest.

This has been yet another lovely waste of time, if you'll excuse me.

[bvar22]

146. You answered the question like Sarah Palin answers questions.

Do you remember what the question is?

Insisting that the Civil War was about "States Rights" and "Secession" and NOT about Slavery is exactly what the racists who still re-fight the Civil War say down in my part of the country.

[NuclearDem]

149. Now you're all manner of confused.

Slavery was an issue in the lead up to the war--namely the issues of free state/slave state admission for new territories and the growing pressure from abolitionists in the North. Slavery made up an enormous part of the South's economy, and abolition would've meant kneecapping their economy.

They seceded, and the rest of the country went to war to force them back into the Union. Emancipation, despite whatever revisionist history books you've been reading have told you, was not the driving force behind the war. In fact, that's why the Emancipation Proclamation didn't apply to the slaveholding border states--Lincoln needed them, especially Maryland, to remain in the Union.

The war started in no small part due to tension between abolition and slaveholding, but the Union fought the war to reunify the country.

So, once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're taking the propaganda version of history and treating it like actual history to act like you're making some great point about hypocrisy.

Talk about the ironies of history.

[bvar22]

152. When you try to pull any individual piece out of History,

you will eventually find that all the pieces are interconnected,
and will eventually realize how childish to insist that the Civil War was fought about States Rights and NOT about slavery. That is an absurd conclusion,
and apparently, you did a little research, found out how WRONG you were, and are now trying to pretend that you have been consistent.

I will redirect you to your own post #16 this thread where you were targeting "Racism".

Sure seems like you are tying Racism to the Civil War in THIS post. IT was only later that you took the Southern Racist approach that the "War of Northern Aggression" was about States Rights and Succession.

Then, you insist that Freeing the Slaves had nothing to do with the Civil War which was fought for States Rights.
When called on your BS, you changed back to...Well, Slavery was a major factor.


So which is it?
You claim in your last post that I seem confused,
but I have been consistent.
You have attempted gross Historical Revisionism, and told some Racist Boo-Boos to justify
your untenable position.


SEE> That is where your confusion is coming from...not having a Moral Compass, and changing your argument every post WILL lead to mental confusion,
as anyone who reads this sub-thread can attest to.

Work on "consistency", and building a Moral Compass, and most of the problems you are having
will clear up.

[NuclearDem]

153. Now you're just doing it deliberately.

Here, I'll write in nice, short phrases, so you don't get confused:

A major cause of North-South tension was the issue of slavery.

The South wanted to keep their slaves, and to keep having slaveholding states admitted to the Union.

The main reason the Union went to war was to force the rebels back into the Union.

The South didn't stop holding slaves until the Union forced a surrender and occupied them.

Slavery was a major cause of the war. It fueled tensions. It was not the reason the Union fought the war. Had slavery not existed in the South, there would have been no war, because no North-South tensions over slave/free state admission would have existed.

I cannot possibly make this any clearer to you. Anything after this, and I'll just assume you're being deliberately dishonest.

[bvar22]

166. I will take that post as a concession.

NOW#, you are admitting that

"Slavery was a major cause of the war."---Recursion, Post 153.

That is a far different tune than you were singing up-thread.

Thank You,
and let me repeat.

Recursion has NOW admitted that Slavery was a major cause of the Civil War,

and I thought some people were unteachable.

[NuclearDem]

170. You take it however you want, buddy.

Even though what you think you "taught" me, I had been saying all along; it's just unfortunate you couldn't comprehend that.

But I guess that shouldn't come as a shock, seeing as you somehow think I'm Recursion.

[paleotn]

55. They just couldn't make it pay....so they "outlawed" it....

....And not everyone in Boston by 1861 was a fire breathing abolitionist by any stretch of your imagination. Me thinks you need a review of your own history and try a little reading comprehension this time. By the way, one hotbed of abolitionist fervor was Jonesborough in east TN. Does that let the southern secessionists off the hook? Hell no. The point is, there's way more than enough shit to go around so none of us should feel holier than thou.

[roamer65]

78. Amen to that, my friend.

[KingCharlemagne]

139. Our other disagreements notwithstanding, this is one hell of a refutation! My sincerest

compliments!

[shenmue]

47. Thank you

Someday, the smug little streak that makes a person want to say, "Well, the North has problems too," will stop.

But not in my lifetime.

[paleotn]

56. If the north were such a nirvana....

...you'd think they'd stay up there and stop moving down here.

[MannyGoldstein]

105. Mass was the first state to outlaw slavery,

in the 1700s, thanks to a ruling that blacks had the same legal rights as whites.

[Art_from_Ark]

113. Well, kind of

Massachusetts was the first state (colony) to have a court rule in favor of a slave's freedom (in 1773), but the first state (colony) to actually outlaw slavery was... Vermont (in 1777). The question of slavery in Massachusetts was finally settled in 1783.

[Leontius]

111. Bullshit

[notadmblnd]

18. We all know that where ever there are people, there are bigots

However, these are photos from the late 60's no?

[uppityperson]

19. Some places it is more open, others more hidden. But it is all over.

Being from the far north of the continental usa, I was very shocked when I traveled in LA, MS at how open it was. Coming home and looking around, it is here too, but more covert.

[WDIM]

21. The symbolism in that photo.

Hard to believe it wasnt staged. The photographer that got that shot had great timing. The american flag being used as a weapon of oppression. When the history of oppression under that flag is very long and bloody and continues to this day. Not just within our borders and not just to people with dark skin. The manipulation, exploitation, the thievery, the murder all in the name of profits, and greed.

It goes beyond just the oppression of blacks but the oppression of all humankind and every living thing on this earth just to chase the almighty dollar. And im not just singling out the US that could be any country's flag.
But the influence of the US and its multinational corporations is felt around the globe and is leaving reverberations for generations to come.

[spanone]

22. k&r...

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

23. Yup. The Northern cities were the last to inegrate.

In New Jersey, I went to my first integrated school in 1966. Many Whites in my town fled to private schools.

[Solly Mack]

24. K&R

[fbc]

25. Yeah, Boston is the worse

Philadelphia rules!

[CherokeeDem]

26. While this is horrid....

Thank you, Will. There is so much Southern bashing on this board, it is nice to see someone recognizes other sections of the country have similar issues.

The South, unfortunately, holds the symbols of racism in its past and try as we may, some will not allow us to heal and move on.

[onecaliberal]

27. I live in California and see the racism

Everywhere here. It's beyond pathetic.

[kairos12]

28. I remember quite well those troubled times in Boston.

[Coventina]

29. Yes, anyone who thinks the North is "superior" needs to watch this movie:

http://www.pbs.org/pov/tracesofthetrade/

A lot of Yankee wealth was built on the slave trade.
And, in many ways, they've been able to hold onto that wealth, whereas the South lost most of it due to the Civil War.

[ablamj]

91. Molasses

to Rum to Slaves. A very powerful song from the muical 1776!

[Warpy]

33. I have to agree, Boston racism hit me like a brick wall

when I moved there from the south. It was a different flavor, social rather than legal, but it was there and it was just as pernicious to the American spirit.

Most of the nastiness was centered in South Boston (which is actually east), famous for the majority Irish population. Eventually they were shamed over throwing rocks at little kids on buses, but it took a while. Southie is a rough area, one I avoided, and most recent Irish immigrants who had initially gone there agreed with me.

The city stuck to its guns, redlining by banks was stopped (well, slowed to a crawl) making most neighborhoods open to black folks and their majority areas finally qualified for improvement loans and homeowner mortgages, the gerrymandered school districts were eventually redrawn, and integration finally came to the city. Southie is still sour about it, to hell with bigots.

There were politicians who rode the bigot wave to prominence. They also disappeared rather quickly, voted out when it became clear the only thing they knew anything about was hate.

Other than the rock throwing crowds, the above incident is one of the most shameful in the city's history. Every Bostonian over the age of 45 has that image indelibly imprinted into his or her memory.

Joseph Rakes, the teenager with the flag, was swinging it, not trying to spear anyone. He spent a night in jail but his prison sentence was suspended. He's spent his life in low wage, dead end jobs, trying to live down this picture, but word has it that he eventually grew up and is a fairly respectable grandpa, still living in Southie.

[Glassunion]

36. [phone]

I visited the south of Boston during a business trip.

I'm 1/2 Irish, 1/2 black and from the south. My co-workers and I visited a pub after our sessions. I went home with a broken nose, and a "trip" to the local jail. Apparently drinking Guinness while black is a crime. Who knew?

[Warpy]

37. Too bad you didn't go to Cambridge, instead

The Plough & Stars tended to be hardcore (no UK products sold here!) but I saw black folks in there all the time. Guinness was on tap there, not in cans.

[Glassunion]

46. Guinness should always be enjoyed from the tap.

Wife and I went to Ireland for honeymoon. It was one of the few places I have ever been where I did not feel different. I was not black, I was not white. I just was. A free pint in almost every pub, and new friends to be had. Even on the west coast. It was like black was normal... I've never felt that way in the U.S.

[Warpy]

49. I was always given a free half pint

because I was a wiseass and the owner appreciated it.

I understand about not being comfortable in your own skin here. You experience it and I think it's dumb but can't do anything to change it so I guess we'll just have to enjoy a virtual pint while we laugh at all the ridiculous assholes who perpetuate it.

[Glassunion]

71. To hell with virtual...

It's not a Guinness, but it'll do.

Cheers!

[Recursion]

126. And East Boston is north of the North End

That always bugged me.

[Warpy]

145. One of the things I loved about it

was how little sense the geography made after they filled in so much land.

I could have done without the ingrained bigotry. Once I discovered Jamaica Plain, I was almost able to.

[DemocraticWing]

38. I've heard people say that the South has more structural racism but individuals are friendlier...

But the North is the exact opposite: less likely to have legally enshrined bigotry, but more individuals act in fearful, prejudiced, nasty ways towards people from different backgrounds. The idea is that Southerners work and live alongside more black people, while the North is very white in many areas and more extensively segregated.

This isn't to excuse the South. There are plenty of individual racists on top of the structural racism down there, and it is no coincidence that they still celebrate some of the worst of their history. And structural racism is endemic everywhere too (how do places like Chicago and Boston get so segregated if not? what about the racist police in New York, Cleveland, etc.?) but it has enjoyed specific pockets of popular support in the South.

This country will need to reckon with its racism as a whole one day. One credit to the South is I think it may be more open to admitting the problem exists, but probably farther behind in moving towards a solution. The world is a strange place.

[antiquie]

39. Watts Rebellion 50 years ago come August ~ nt

[heaven05]

40. I was attending Boston U

and working at my internship at a television news station. Ugly, ugly people came out of the woodwork, S. Boston particularly. They swarmed out the woodwork with agitation of the hate speech(s) of Louise Day Hicks et al. Scary times, for me, even with my training and recent return from on of our military adventure/interventions overseas..... I stayed on campus a lot and in my rented house. Didn't go out much.

[HassleCat]

41. Maybe he's like George Wallace

He finally came to terms with his segregation past, admitted he was wrong, etc. That photo was not taken last week, so maybe the guy with the flag feels differently now. Or maybe not. You're right when you say there are racists everywhere. But these "identity groups" seem to thrive in the south, according to the organizations that keep an eye on them, SPLC, etc.

[MADem]

83. Naaah...he really hasn't said "I was wrong." He said he was a hot-headed kid, but he justifies

his anger because he was being denied "his" old "neighborhood school."

Not sure if he was a dropout by this point, but whatever. He's not going to wave a flag on a pole at anyone, but he kept the flag, still has it carefully preserved, and mitigates his conduct with a sort of "They made me do it," kind of attitude.

He doesn't live in Boston anymore--Maine has had to put up with him for some time, now.

[csziggy]

45. Here is the photographer's web site with the photos of "Soiling Old Glory"

The entire sequence is on this page - if you click on the first, you can segue through the sequence.

http://www.stanleyformanphotos.com/gallerysoilingoldglory.html

[Throd]

48. I can take you to lots of racist places in California but that would ruin the DU stereotype.

[LiberalElite]

50. I grew up in

NYC in the Bronx. As I wasn't raised to be prejudiced when I was too young to know any better I thought all the racism was down south. But, as a teenager found a calling card from a racist group in our apartment lobby. I was so upset I tore it into tiny pieces. I also witnessed a guy call a white a "nigger lover" because he was walking with a black. This was in the '60s.

Also a friend told me about when she lived in Long Island in the '40s and a black family moved into a white neighborhood. Her parents had to talk people out of moving.

Then blacks started moving into formerly white neighborhoods and there was talk of an "invasion".

I guess we had everything but the cross burnings. For all our ballyhooed diversity it probably hasn't changed all that much, just gone underground and expressed in dog whistles e.g., the word "element."

[7962]

51. The man is NOT "about to stab a black guy in the chest"

You need to read the story of the photo by the person who wrote a book on it, Louis Masur:
"Photographs trick our eye because our brains want to think that they are seeing the whole and absolute truth. This photo is only one moment in time and it both captures that moment and also deceives, because what is going on in it is not immediately clear. The figure holding Ted Landsmark is not holding him up for the kill. The man, Jim Kelly, one of the protesters, is actually trying to get him out of harm's way. He was one of the leaders of the antibusing movement. That someone is coming to his aid changes the meaning of the image and largely the possibilities of reconciliation. And the attacker too is misunderstood.


Joseph Rakes, who is holding the flag, is also misrepresented. It appears as though he is using the flagpole as a spear to plunge it at Landsmark. In fact, he's actually swinging or waving it across at him. Indeed, the flag actually missed Landsmark on that swing. The picture does show the fact that a black man was beaten with an American flag, but when we go deeper we see there is much more going on. As a culture we are very visually oriented but not very visually literate. We take images far too literally when, in fact, images need to be interrogated and thought about. When Rakes first saw the picture, he was riding on a bus to work the next day. He saw a guy holding a newspaper with the picture on the front page. "I saw the image and thought, 'Who is that lunatic with the flag?' " he told me. "Then I realized it was me."

[MADem]

84. Joseph Rakes is unrepentant.

If you look at a few of the links I've posted throughout the thread, you can see that he is just living with his reputation, he mitigates his behavior, and, most telling of all, he's kept/preserved that flag.

He's not going to go out on the ramparts at this stage of his life, but he's not going to be mistaken as a friend of the Civil Rights Movement, either.

Jim Kelly was helping Ted up after he got attacked, punched, thrown to the ground and kicked. I posted a video elsewhere in this thread that has the photographer discussing the images (and he shows Ted on the ground getting kicked) and the sequence of events. Start around the two minute mark if you don't want to see Forman's account of another very iconic image about a fire and balcony.

[7962]

96. Yet the OP's author refuses to change its title to one thats actually true.

Thought we had rules about that here.

And it seems half the posters refuse to accept your numerous attempts to point out the truth about these photos. And he insists the 2nd one, of the flag pole stabbing the man, actually does exist, yet doesnt present it.
It seems that its all about stirring up a shit storm

[MADem]

100. All I can say is consider the source.

The "used car salesman" rhetoric didn't go over any better than this "interpretation" of history. Can't do much about it, except perhaps correct the record.

Anyone who refuses to take the word of both the photographer AND the victim of the attack is being willfully obtuse. I am not even going to speculate as to why--there's really no explanation for it. Facts DO matter. I'm no journalist, but I think it's important to try to be as accurate as possible when relaying the background of an historical event. Ted Landsmark was beaten up by others, not the jerk with the flag. The flag never touched Ted--he says as much. The guy swinging (not stabbing) the flag doesn't live in Southie anymore and hasn't for years (he went on the lam for awhile after he was suspected of killing someone with a blunt instrument--if he did the crime, he got away with it; it may have been a "snitches get stitches" kind of thing because there was insufficient proof to bring charges). He's a Mainer and he lives not all that far from the Bush compound--so I'm guessing, since Jeb! is building a house on the compound, that he'll be back on the watch list--if he was ever taken off.

I remember this event--I was in the City of Boston when it happened--I went back overseas a few months after this happened, but the whole busing business pervaded the atmosphere in a rather corrosive way.

Some people likened the image to that of Crispus Attacks, the first casualty of the Revolution, gunned down by the British. The long gun and the misappropriated "Old Glory" being reversed, but with a similar energy:



I think the focus should be on South Carolina and the people who had their lives snatched from them by a racist asshole, who will meet justice eventually. I "get" the point that racism is everywhere, hell, I've seen enough of it in my long life, but I don't think that elevating the shitty behavior of a racist punk teen in 1976, to somehow "equate" it to the mass-murderous behavior of a young - appearing adult racist who shot a bunch of people in a church is terribly on the mark.

That's just my lousy opinion, though.

[7962]

119. Not a lousy opinion at all. I agree; facts matter.

And so many here are so quick to judge and post without KNOWING the facts. The best recent example of this i can think of is this OP from a little while back:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141077009
Most instantly screamed "racists!" and didnt read the story to see all involved were black. I see now that a few have gone back and deleted their posts; one of which was "I hate this country".
Its like they're set on a hair trigger just waiting for the opportunity to fire.

[quickesst]

131. you are right

The focus should be on South Carolina. But there are people who are not going to sit there and let others paint a picture of the north as a group of angels who could and can do no wrong, and the south as if it was a disease that needs to be eradicated. If that shit stops, then maybe people can focus on the recent tragedy instead.

[MADem]

144. I accept people as they come to me. "Regions" are not good or bad, "people" are.

If people teach the wrong lessons, shame on them. If they teach the right ones, good on them.

[quickesst]

150. thanks for your reply

All I can say is this statement of yours is also correct. Unfortunately for many here it is all about region.

[MADem]

163. I have some family roots in one region of USA, but I've spent half my life outside America.

I've been lucky to see a lot of USA, too, in my travels for work and fun. There are many good people in this world. Some, not so good, too, but you can find both kinds anywhere. No one section has the monopoly on either type!

[quickesst]

164. Very well said

Yours is a view that should be taken to heart by everyone. Good nor evil is exclusive to any region on earth. I can only hope that people will look for the good in places they do not expect it, and realize that those people are on their side in this struggle called life. Thanks

[Ishoutandscream2]

53. Love you, Will.

Thanks so much. Tired of all the bashing we have to put up here.

[cwydro]

74. People love to be superior,

and act like they are so much better than southerners.

Annoying, but it's always the usual suspects. They look silly in the long run.

You're right, the south bashing gets old.

[MADem]

54. That "Black guy" is Ted Landsmark, who has had a long and distinguished career in the city.

http://www.the-bac.edu/experience-the-bac/news-and-events/news/landsmark-naab-presidency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Landsmark

More on the photo--the ass with the flag (a seventeen year old drop out from Southie) wasn't stabbing, he was swinging, and the guy who looks like he's holding Ted is actually helping him up. It's a very powerful picture, nonetheless-- entitled The Soiling of Old Glory and it was taken by a guy named Foreman who won the Pulitzer for it. One of the few times the Herald managed to do anything approaching journalism.

More on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soiling_of_Old_Glory

More trivia: the brother of the idiot with the flag was extorted by Whitey Bulger. Whitey forced the man to sell his liquor store under threat of death. Two years ago, he, er, "departed," during the Bulger trial, too, under curious circumstances.

http://wgbhnews.org/post/mystery-surrounds-rakes-death-his-body-laid-rest


According to these cites, Joseph Rakes, the flag swinger, lives in Maine. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/stars-and-strife-113668570/?no-ist http://busingproject.blogspot.com/2008/12/joseph-rakes.html

I think he's not too far from the Bush Family Compound. He's not hard to find with a quick google, but I'm not going to post his details here.


He worked on the Big Dig, and found forgiveness from his co-workers, lucky him: http://commonwealthmagazine.org/arts-and-culture/the-soiling-of-old-glory-shows-how-a-herald-photo-pricked-the-conscience-of-boston/

During that era, Boston was not at all "liberal." It was de-facto segregated, and the tension was palpable in many neighborhoods. Louise Day Hicks was a hate-monger to beat the band--she was like Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, wrapped up in a mink stole. Mean, nasty, spiteful human being. Janet Langhart was a young reporter at the time, and she feared for her life as she covered the story in South Boston.

[Rex]

69. He sure did pick the wrong way to hold a flag if he was just swinging it.

Died under mysterious conditions...claimed the mob stole his bar in the 1980s and he wanted to be a witness in a trial against a mob boss.

"his name was removed from the government witness list one day before he died."

Can only imagine why.

[MADem]

72. You can hear the photographer talk about that day in the 2nd half of this clip.

The first part has to do with another tragic/iconic photo that he took.

He shows all the pictures he took ahead of that "Soiling of Old Glory" that won him the Pulitzer, and you can see Ted being kicked and beaten. All accounts agree that he was swinging it, but you're right--it does look like something else. It also looks like the guy who is helping Ted up off the ground after he was set upon is somehow holding him so that the flag waver can spear him.

That's what makes the picture so compelling. It conveys a larger truth. It doesn't really matter how Ted got his nose broken, by the fist of a busing protester, or that the flag spear/waver didn't connect--the fact is, a guy heading towards a meeting at city hall got set upon by a pack of assholes and was kicked and beaten.

[JEB]

59. Here in liberal Oregon,

we also have our share of hateful low-life racist scum.

[frylock]

63. Really quite surprised by some of the pushback that you're receiving..

plenty of racism down here in SoCal as well.

[WilliamPitt]

67. I'm not.

Sadly.

[7962]

97. The pushback is because the title of the OP is false,

as is his assertion that the second picture of the man actually stabbed exists, which it doesnt.

[roamer65]

70. Overt racism is usually indicated by the "Stars and Bars" on a pickup truck.

...and that is country wide.

The only difference between the North and South during the civil war was the level of racism on each side. This country still has a very deep divide on the issue, sad to say.

[MADem]

82. There are 'code word' ways of indicating it--when people start talking about the "character" of a

community being changed if 'certain people' move in, or if people start citing "history" as a defense of excluding people, you can figure you've got trouble without any of those stars or bars. In Boston, the favored codeword was "neighborhood schools." In other words, none of "YOU PEOPLE" would be going to a school in "THIS NEIGHBORHOOD," because "YOU" don't belong.

[JI7]

73. yes, there are Racists everywhere but there seems to be more acceptance of it in some Southern areas

like the confederate flag. all the monuments to racists .

nobody should feel superior about their state though . if you look at the more liberal cities and how cops treat minorities there are some serious issues.

[AtomicKitten]

76. Breathtaking photo.

wow

[ucrdem]

88. Perfect metaphor for the last 6 years. nt

[JDPriestly]

92. When was that picture taken?

Last edited Sat Jun 20, 2015, 10:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Certainly before Barack Obama was elected president with a lot of support from white voters in the North.

Yes. There is racism in the North, but white people are not killing African-Americans.

I have to qualify my statement. Police officers in the North are killing African-Americans, but other people are not.

[MADem]

95. Obama was 14 and a half years old when that picture was taken.

That was the Bicentennial Year of 1976, which added a special impact to the photograph at the time.

[higherarkies]

98. How many

black people have been killed by white police officers in the last 2 years (that we know about)?

[higherarkies]

99. Yes.

"Police officers in the North are killing African-Americans, but other people are not. "

Yes. It's perhaps more 'subtle' in the north. But it's everywhere. It's everywhere.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

93. Do you remember this?

Sung to "Dixie"

Oh, way down South in Boston Mass
The shoe's on the other foot at last
Look away, look away, make a way
For the bus.

[progressoid]

94. My neighbor (in Iowa) has a confederate flag bumper sticker.

[Hoyt]

104. At least he's not using a confederate or nazi flag.

[Mr.Bill]

107. My summary of the OP:

There's lots of racism today in Boston, and here's a 40 year old picture of one guy to prove it.

[chev52]

108. Racism

Someone from outer space reading this thread would have to believe that racism in this country only involves whites hating blacks, never blacks hating whites.

[dakdirty]

109. If someone from outer space were looking...

...Hopefully, they would take you back with them. Silly, asinine thing to say.

[chev52]

161. Another reply

You are the one who is saying silly things. It looks like you do believe that only southern whites are capable of racism.

[dakdirty]

165. If that's what you think...

That's ok. I'm not trying to convince you, because for you to even think this way shows we are beyond debate. As a black person born and raised in the south, I have heard this nonsense plenty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Did you take a wrong turn at Alburqueque?

'cause that is a classic dog whistle from ahem certain very ugly places.

[jtuck004]

117. I have a 60 lb terrier mix, and a 6 lb chihuahua. That little dog can hate on that big terrier all

day long, but there is such a difference in power that any attempt to compare them looks ignorant, as if one is trying to marginalize or minimize the effort of the one with no power.

Making such a comparison shows how thoughtless and irrelevant such an effort is.

Too subtle?

Don't answer - it's rhetorical. (If you don't know what that means,well, here's hoping you can google it.).

[chev52]

160. Rhetorical?

How about coming out and saying what you mean instead?

[irisblue]

132. you mad bro?

[chev52]

159. Mad?

I'm a sensible guy. Is this a sensible reply to me? No, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[irisblue]

162. ignore list for a 63 poster...

enjoy your stay

[Fearless]

110. How is any of this thread productive??

The goal should be getting rid of racism in the world not lashing out at people. Full stop.

[LanternWaste]

168. We cannot remove a thing when we deny the full breadth of its existence...

We cannot remove a thing when we deny the full breadth of its existence, even in those places where its existence is below the surface, giving the fictional comfort to those who may stand on its very bedrock.

[Fearless]

171. No one is denying anything.

[Pooka Fey]

114. Thank you, Will

for your much needed perspective on current events.

[King_Klonopin]

115. Quote from Dave Chappell:

"[snip] but the racism in the South is ... EXQUISITE !"

[handmade34]

116. even though...

Last edited Sun Jun 21, 2015, 07:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Vermont's 1977 Constitution, Chapter 1, affirms that

"all men" have "certain natural, inherent and unalienable Rights," and that no adult without consent "ought to be holden by law to serve any person as a Servant, slave or apprentice."

there were still a few wealthy people in Vermont that managed to hold slaves and today Vermont has its share of racism...

my work takes me around the United States and I believe I have seen a Confederate flag being displayed somewhere in every state... usually on some back country road in a front yard or displayed on a pickup...

[raccoon]

118. THANK YOU. nt

[janlyn]

124. Thank you Will.

I live in the south, but I am not from here originally, hell I'm not even from the US originally. Something I didn't realize until I went north to visit relatives, was that the races don't mingle on a daily basis everywhere. On the drive north I felt as if I had entered the twilight zone, and couldn't put my finger on why. And then it hit me! Not a single person that I saw wasn't white, the entire visit was like that. I am not saying there isn't racism here, because there is a whole helluva lot. But I don't think the south has the market cornered.
Edit to add, I heard the N word a lot more as well. Probably because they felt more comfortable saying it with no one about to insult.

[L0oniX]

125. I was hoping to see the end of racism in at least this country before I die.

I can't believe we are still fighting this shit.

[Gore1FL]

128. The difference, of course, is that one group is still trying to relive the "glory days." n/t

[RoccoRyg]

129. chicago

In a book a I read about Obama's rise to power, Chicago's racist history was discussed. When Martin Luther King Jr came to this city, the animosity was so vile he started to prefer the South. Chicago was designed so that each ethnic group was segregated into specific areas. Apparently the lower class whites joined the upper class ones in hating blacks. A sad history for the city I call home.

[Unca Jim]

137. I don't know why...

While racism exists everywhere, I do not understand why people are so resistant to the idea that it's worse in the South, because it is.

[AtheistCrusader]

141. You don't see it much here in Seattle. Sunlight is a good disinfectsnt and all that.

Still, as liberal as Seattle, and as blue as King County is, its still there if you know where to look. Law enforcement, arrest rates, jury composition..

Out police department has been a real problem, but USDoJ oversight has helped.

[MellowDem]

148. Every where's riddled with bigots...

Including Africa.

And none of that changes that the south is, on average, a bit more racist.

[ann---]

151. As awful as that is - and it

IS awful, slavery did not exist in most of the North. The
North sent their sons to battle to FIGHT slavery. THAT is
what the North stands for. Not the bigotry that is taught
from generation to generation in the south as "southern pride."

[LanternWaste]

167. It's odd that focusing rather on the thought-provoking substance of your post

It's odd that focusing rather on the thought-provoking substance of your post, some irrational minds are attacking the irrelevancy of trivia as though it counters you premise (thus rendering their own states blameless in history or in racism?).

[KamaAina]

169. Yes, but most of it did happen in South Boston