Questions for Bernie supporters: NPR interview 'You shouldn't base your politics on your skin color'

[bigtree]

Here's the quote (remarks) I'm referring to:

On African-American support for Democrats

Well, here's what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that's kind of natural. You've got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you've got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.

But that's not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing? ... In the last election, in state after state, you had an abysmally low vote for the Democrats among white, working-class people. And I think the reason for that is that the Democrats have not made it clear that they are prepared to stand with the working-class people of this country, take on the big money interests. I think the key issue that we have to focus on, and I know people are uncomfortable about talking about it, is the role of the billionaire class in American society.

...what did he mean when he cited African American voter support for an African American president;

"...here's what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that's kind of natural."

...then, cited Hispanic community of voters looking to the party for help;

"You've got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you've got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help."

...and then said, outright, "...that's not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color."

Did he mean that republicans shouldn't base their politics on color? (I'm being charitable here)

Or, did he mean that African Americans and Hispanics Americans shouldn't base their politics on color?


If Bernie meant the latter, I think he's mistaken. In the case of blacks and an identification with the race of the president, it's likely much more than a cosmetic affinity for his skin color. Black Americans have had a real need for candidates who aren't afraid to say, 'I'm one of you and I recognize, understand, and will directly respond to your particular concerns.'

However, both political parties, in the last few decades, have been more concerned with cultivating the support of white males. So, in order to garner the support of party regulars and voters, black candidates are persuaded to position themselves to appeal to voters 'across racial lines.' But, the idea of wooing white males suggests that the ideals and aspiration of blacks are not good enough for white Americans, or are somehow separate and polarizing.

There is unabashed discussion in every election about our party's need to attract white voters - yet, when blacks finally have a candidate who looks like them, and are persuaded to vote Democratic in his support in dominating numbers, it's all of a sudden a problem to vote on the basis of color?

Of course, I can see his point if he's worried that blacks might not respond as enthusiastically to a white candidate or nominee. That could be a problem for the party in this upcoming election. So, as a solution, Bernie comes up with a formula he believes should appeal to voters across racial lines. It's an economic appeal which, correctly, highlights the dividing line between the haves and the have-nots. It's a sound principle...only one problem. Blacks in America are not succeeding economically at the same rate as whites; in fact, they are so far behind economically, it can't be explained away by just pointing to the disparity between 'working-class people' and the 'billionaire-class.'

There are very real and aggravating racial issues which need to be addressed and remedied before we can begin to talk about blacks' situation in our economy and the white working-class and their plights. Yes, there are common problems facing both, but there is another disparity between races which hasn't yet been remedied by a raising of all boats.

Now, to be fair to Bernie, I think he makes a good point (if that's his drift) that merely electing a black president didn't, and likely wouldn't, wipe away the barriers to economic equality between blacks and whites; barriers like discrimination in hiring; discrimination in housing; discrimination in political representation, including voting rights and opportunities; discrimination in health care and access to services; discrimination in educational opportunities and resources...Still, there's definitely a disconnect in what he's saying here between the reality of blacks in America and his perception of the 'working-class.'

I realize that I'm picking on Bernie here, to the exclusion of the other candidates and their rhetoric on race and economic opportunity and success. Yet, I want to know what his supporters think of his statement and how they interpret what he said in this interview.

Why should black Americans disregard their 'skin color' in choosing candidates and nominees for the presidency; especially when there are these efforts to downplay their particular concerns (centered on problems associated with their race) in favor of a colorblind appeal to the 'working-class?' Why should they put aside that identification with their own skin color when they represent, on the average, a disproportionately more disadvantaged segment of that working-class? Shouldn't they expect more from candidates than just another appeal which leaves their particular economic plights out of the discussion and their economic futures taken for granted?

Why I believe we are losing some white voters to the GOP and their bigoted appeal is directly related to our party's focus on issues like economic disparities between races; discrimination against blacks; voting rights abuses directed at minorities; the plights of immigrants (focus on Hispanic immigrants), and the like. I don't believe our party should change the focus or direction of our politics one bit to appeal to bigots and racists who can't find room in their politics for such an important segment of the voting population; for such an integral segment of our own party membership.

Bottom-line, black Americans aren't likely to put aside consideration of their 'skin color' in their politics; not until opposition to addressing and remedying their particular economic and social concerns is longer a rallying point for the republican opposition; not until those particular economic and social concerns are actually being addressed and remedied. I'm just perplexed why anyone would think that suggestion of Bernie's makes sense.


link to NPR interview: http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2014/11/19/365024592/sen-bernie-sanders-on-how-democrats-lost-white-voters

[cantbeserious]

1. Bernie Probably Means That Politics Should Be Color Blind - Instead Politics Should Be About

The health, safety and vitality of all citizens independent of color.

[bigtree]

2. so, it was just not artfully stated?

...that happens.

[cantbeserious]

4. Yes - That May Be The Case

eom

[merrily]

17. Those who support Bernie on DU do not speak for him, nor do we have any

Last edited Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

special "Bernie to DUer" dictionaries. People will read that and think whatever they will think, no matter what any of us say.

[Zorra]

63. In my experience, I've found that it is always best to examine the past history

of a person in order to more clearly understand the meaning and intent of what they say and do.

In Bernie's case, based on his record and past words and actions, it's pretty clear that he understands the unequal and unjust conditions that minorities in the US live under, and have lived under for a long time.

[merrily]

69. Agree. That is what my original reply on this thread did, by giving links to posts in which history

Last edited Sat Jun 20, 2015, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

of both Bernie and Hillary were examined.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6871272

However, Bernie's DU supporters are not the only ones who can examine history. Or read English. And, as I said, even if we did have some special ability to parse his words, it's not as though we'd change the minds of any DUers inclined to think the worst of him anyway.

It just struck me as one of those no win OP's. If you respond, it's useless. If you don't bother to respond--because it is useless-- people start implying that means something negative about Bernie. I didn't think the OP intended it that way, but that is how it struck me.

I also think there is a potential danger to Bernie to pretend or believe that we have some special ability to parse Bernie's words or thoughts. I am always amazed how many DUers assume they know the intent of a politician and start explaining WHY he or she did something or said something.

[Zorra]

76. Well said, and done.

The constant race posts directed against Bernie are disgusting.

It's DU's version of Fox News type TV propaganda, running a banner at the bottom of the screen that is completely opposite the truth of a story, almost always done in order to smear liberals.

Truth doesn't matter to them. Any damage they can inflict is the reason for their actions.

[merrily]

79. Reminiscent of the 2008 primary.

[AtomicKitten]

124. Same intent with only slight variation in execution.

There is very little to attack Bernie on which is why we see different permutations of a handful of memes repeated over and over again. Attacking Bernie in such a dishonest and distorted way is an indication of fear, and knowing that makes the attacks cartoonish in effect.

[bigtree]

81. maybe he shouldn't discuss it

...if he doesn't want his statements scrutinized.

It's amazing to me that, on a discussion board, his supporters would expect posters to accept everything he says on race as valid and correct. Hell, I, as a black individual, don't even get that consideration for my own views - and I'm a lifelong supporter/activist on behalf of civil rights. My father was Director of Civil Rights at EEOC in the '80s. I'm very much a product of his views and reasoning.

But, Bernie...I'm supposed to accept everything he says on race as inviolable; or stay quiet. Bullshit.

[sheshe2]

150. I remember your Op about your dad, bigtree

What an awesome man, posted from a son that loved him and learned from him.

Happy Fathers Day for the memories.

I am sorry about the post to you. Your response...

It's amazing to me that, on a discussion board, his supporters would expect posters to accept everything he says on race as valid and correct. Hell, I, as a black individual, don't even get that consideration for my own views - and I'm a lifelong supporter/activist on behalf of civil rights. My father was Director of Civil Rights at EEOC in the '80s. I'm very much a product of his views and reasoning.

But, Bernie...I'm supposed to accept everything he says on race as inviolable; or stay quiet. Bullshit.

Best~

she

[onecaliberal]

3. He meant what he said.

Don't base your politics on color, gender, or party. Base it on what is in your own best interests and that of your family and working people against the billionaire class. It's really not that difficult. There is no reason to twist what he said.

[bigtree]

7. I'm not 'twisting' anything

...I think it's perfectly acceptable to base your vote on your skin color if that's what you believe defines your interests.

Twist that.

[onecaliberal]

10. You just insinuated it was a problem for him to say That

as some sort of perceived slight against certain folks.

[bigtree]

14. well, it did strike me as wrong

...I get that you're fine with it, but it doesn't translate as clearly to me along the lines that you believe it does.

[AgingAmerican]

85. So whites should only vote for white candidates

...and Hispanics should only vote for Hispanic candidates, etc?

Sounds like an apartheid world to me. Or the deep south, or some other segregated society.

Thankfully that isn't the case, cuz if it was Obama would have never been elected in the first place and we would been stuck with Popeye McCain and the RW Housewife.

[bigtree]

91. my comments weren't about who we vote for, it's about viewing issues through a racial lens

...your question is a strawman.

[AgingAmerican]

96. My question still stands

My question is about narrowly viewing issues through a racial lens. This is what happens in the Deep south, in Israel and in Apartheid South Africa.

[bigtree]

103. the 'racial lens' isn't as narrow as you suppose

...it comprises economics, health, discrimination, voting rights, policing, housing, education, political appointments...

Of course, I can't help if your own view of race is limited.

[AgingAmerican]

108. In many contexts it is

Especially those which I have listed.

You can try to smear me personally, but my point stands.

[bigtree]

112. you drew the context as a handful of oppressive countries

...I associated it with very real and concrete issues in this country.

I don't think it's a smear to interpret your view of what a racial lens might comprise (and your apparent rejection of my list) as 'limited.'

[7962]

92. Thank you.

Blacks are 13% of the population. They'd never win any office without a lot of white and hispanic support. Politics should be colorblind.

[onecaliberal]

93. You don't get anything about me. You're not worth my time.

[bigtree]

120. I got that right away

'You're not worth my time.'

[bluesbassman]

24. That sort of logic is why we are where we are.

Far too many people vote for candidates based on very narrow criteria for how that candidate reflects their own views.

It's not only the candidates' responsibility to provide a broad spectrum of policy and initiative ideas, it's also the electorate's responsibility to demand that they do.

Basing one's vote on skin color, gender, age, or any other physical attributes merely because one identifies with any of them only serves to produce more of the same in the governance of this nation at all levels.

[bettyellen]

28. You think the kinship people felt w Obama is merely skin deep- based on looks?

I have to disagree with you there. I think it goes much deeper.

[bluesbassman]

35. Did I say that?

For you to "disagree" with me would mean that I actually said it, and you and I both know that is not true.

I was responding to bigtree who said:

...I think it's perfectly acceptable to base your vote on your skin color if that's what you believe defines your interests.

Seems to me you should have directed your comment to bigtree as that statement was closer to what you're accusing me of.

[bigtree]

41. of course, I've defined above what that actually means

...that it comprises a myriad of issues and concerns particular to one's race.

[bettyellen]

42. I think the difference is- they referred to the voters color (or gender) as a big part of what

Defines their interest. Somehow that got twisted into an accusation that these votes are completely shallow- based on the candidates looks. I would say that's incorrect.

The discussion here is whether it is worthwhile (to Sanders or any candidate) to specifically address the concerns of the AA community. If he has decided it's not worth doing, there's no way that won't alienate a lot of voters. It is what it is.

[bluesbassman]

50. So there it is.

The OP tried to be "concerned" about it, and now you're continuing the meme.

"If" Sanders has decided not to do it. The quoted article contains nothing that indicates that he is not going to be sensitive to the needs of all his constituents, including POC, yet you are insinuating that he is excluding them from his platform. It's an extremely transparent ploy.

[bettyellen]

53. It's not a ploy - it's observations from voters who were oft excluded.

And fucking fed up and being excluded.
You don't want to take them seriously, that's up to you. As far as I can see Sanders supporters are the same- voting for their number one concern- and it's money. It's weird that they should assume that's everyone's main concern though- you have to be wearing blinders to think so.

[bluesbassman]

65. Smear me all you want, although you can't back up anything you've said to what I've posted.

But the fact still remains that what you and sadly many other Clinton supporters try to do on this board is smear and misrepresent what Bernie Sanders stands for, believes, and envisions for every citizen of this nation.

Maybe name recognition and money will be enough to get your candidate elected. At least we have a shot at some decent SC nominations if she wins.

[bettyellen]

68. What fucking smears? You're the one pretending that POC are faking concerns at Clinton's behest!

And of course people are going to scrutinize Sander's interview. That is what people do when trying to figure out who to vote for- you might as well get used to it.
Try not to write off and scorn
women and POC as in the bag for Clinton maybe- it's seriously demented conspiracy theory. We're more reliable Dem voters than anyone, and no longer content to take a back seat to anyone. Get used to it.

[bluesbassman]

78. Is there some on-line class one can take to learn these techniques?

What fucking smears? OK, let's line 'em up all in a row so they're easy to see.

"If he has decided it's not worth doing, there's no way that won't alienate a lot of voters."

This is your interpretation of what Sanders believes and is clearly meant to infer that he is unconcerned with POC. A smear directed at Sanders.

"You don't want to take them seriously, that's up to you. As far as I can see Sanders supporters are the same- voting for their number one concern- and it's money."

Nice! A twofer! You smear both me and anyone else who supports Sanders. Actually it's a trifecta as you Smear Bernie with the same brush.

"You're the one pretending that POC are faking concerns at Clinton's behest!" "Try not to write off and scorn
women and POC as in the bag for Clinton maybe- it's seriously demented conspiracy theory."

Really? Where exactly did I say that?

Now it's your turn to actually back up what your implying I've said. And as you seem a little unclear as to what the actual definition of smear is I went ahead and looked it up for you.

Full Definition of SMEAR

1 a : a viscous or sticky substance
b : a spot made by or as if by an unctuous or adhesive substance

2 : material smeared on a surface (as of a microscopic slide); also : a preparation made by smearing material on a surface <a vaginal smear>

3 : a usually unsubstantiated charge or accusation against a person or organization —often used attributively <a smear campaign> <a smear job>

[7962]

89. Then its fine for whites to say they'll only vote for white candidates? No.

Thats ridiculous. And its ridiculous for blacks to say the same. You should be looking for a CANDIDATE who "defines your interests" best, regardless of color.
Clarence Thomas is black, guess he'd get your vote of he were running for office?
"Black" "Hispanic" "White", etc, is WHAT we are. Not WHO we are. And until everyone sees that we'll continue to see idiots of every color doing & saying stupid shit.

[bigtree]

95. no

...why should anyone assume that? Why should anyone assume that racist or bigoted views should be considered as valid?

However, to take a broad brush and declare, for instance, it's unreasonable to declare that black voters are incorrect in associating their race with candidates' positions on issues which are particular to them.

[okasha]

198. He mrant what he said, and what he said was bullshit.

How am I not supposed to take skin color into political.consideration when thousands of people who share my skin color still live in what amount to concentration camps? When white men go onto reservations to rape Native women in epidemic numbers because the tribal courts can't prosecute them, and the state courts won't? When our young people who have fled into cities are killing themselves with drugs and alcohol, in part because most of us lack the genetic mechanisms that allow the body to process alcohol properly?

Don't 'splain to me again how that's a "special interest group" issue. Don't tell me about the rising tide that lifts all boats, because all that does is smear lipstick on the trickle-down pig. And do not spew platitudes to me about how you're sympathetic to the "plight" of First Nations peoples. We don't have a plight, we have problems.

Tell me what Sanders is going to do to address them. Start with the broken treaties that open up reservation lands to white exploitation. Tell me what he will do about schools on the rez. Tell me about jobs and job training.

Go on. Tell me.

[Tea Potty]

223. Wow, I am sure u demand answers from Hillary just like that

Remind me what Hillary's Ultimate Solution™ is?

[okasha]

225. Damn right I do.

Did you have something constructive to say, or did you just want to let us all know that you find the Native American holocaust an occasion to exercise particularly vapid wit?

[MrMickeysMom]

227. That sure is a good question to ask Bernie Sanders

[Betty Karlson]

179. That certainly is the way I read that statement.

And it's one I wholeheartedly agree with.

[merrily]

5. ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026870696

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6870901

[Motown_Johnny]

6. Are you saying racial politics don't exist?

Or are you attacking someone for being honest about it?


Either way, you are the problem here. Not Bernie.

[bigtree]

8. I asked if that is what he was referring to, because it's not as claer as you suggest

..and if I'm the problem, then, perhaps there's zero room for me in a Sanders administration. I'm not supposed to make his narrative clear, it's HIS responsibility to make it clear to me.

Some of his supporters here aren't helping him a bit. This attack of yours on my character for asking these questions is despicable.

[Motown_Johnny]

11. Sorry but it seemed pretty clear.

How can the statement that you should not base your politics on your skin color not be about racial politics?

[bigtree]

16. because some black Americans, in particular, have concerns which are based solely on their race

...problems which a generic focus in politics on the 'working-class' has yet to address or remedy.

[Motown_Johnny]

22. wow...

I don't think I can continue this conversation.


Busy watching coverage of the recent massacre of 9 people who were murdered in cold blood while in their church because they were black.


Not because they were "working class" (one was a state senator).

[bigtree]

45. two different perspectives going on here about what he meant

...remember that I asked what you believed he meant.

You are evidently interpreting his comments as meaning that the opposition shouldn't base their politics on skin color.

I would note that he said 'your' skin color, and I think it could be interpreted as saying that I shouldn't base my vote on my own skin color. I think your outrage is unfounded. Bernie wasn't clear at all here what he actually meant and his statement was incoherent, at best. I've offered that I'm open to an interpretation which is charitable to him, but I don't owe this politician or any other one anything (including the one I favor in this primary). He's the one working to appeal to voters. If you or he believe that's something that can be arrogantly or dismissively conveyed to voters like me, you're in for a rude awakening.

[Motown_Johnny]

48. I think that the word "you" was used generically

to address anyone and everyone who votes.


It sounds like you are so desperate to find fault that you are distorting it to seem as if he was addressing one person or group.

He was being honest about how he views the state of racial politics in this country today. He also said that people (any/all people) should not be basing their votes based on race.


Everything is very straight forward and easy to understand if you don't pick it apart trying to find fault.


It also makes a lot of sense.


Part of my "outrage" as you call it, is because of the number of threads misrepresenting the same quote that is on this board right now. Couldn't you have just posted on one or more of the other ones? Why start this one at all?

[bigtree]

58. you're all bent about how I interpret Bernie's words

...but I don't mean squat to you as you 'pick me apart' and call me 'desperate' and worse for questioning him. Smh.

[Motown_Johnny]

109. misinterpret

[Number23]

204. You are so damned busy trying to take offense to a COMMON SENSE post from bigtree that you aren't

even understanding what you're arguing about.

Do you deny that black Americans have social and economic issues in this country that whites and even other minority groups do not?

[Motown_Johnny]

226. that was exactly my point

How did you miss that?


You seem to be the one not understanding what is being argued.

[Number23]

230. No, that was bigtree's point!

Goodness gracious, I wish to God you guys would stop SCREAMING every time someone says something even the tiniest bit less than glowing about Bernie Sanders and just LISTEN!

"because some black Americans, in particular, have concerns which are based solely on their race

...problems which a generic focus in politics on the 'working-class' has yet to address or remedy." http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6871337

That was EXACTLY what bigtree said to you. The bolded part is my own emphasis. And to this really clearly expressed bit of common sense, you responded with that utterly bizarre bit about "not being able to continue because you're watching a memoriam for people that were killed for being black." That made no sense!

Bigtree is saying that black people have specific concerns that someone focusing solely on economics cannot remedy or address. The people killed in Charleston would be EXACTLY what he's talking about as they were killed for the color of their skin, not due to any economic or class issues.

[geek tragedy]

9. Inartfully stated.

Very few of us support him because of his oratory. But he needs someone to help him fine tune that message if he's to avoid niche candidate status.

[BainsBane]

12. The idea that African Americans vote based on race

is stunning when there has been only one black president and they have voted for countless white politicians.
How about all the times white folks have voted for white presidents? One black president where African Americans voted in roughly the same percentage they did for every other Democratic president, and they vote based on skin color? That's the sort of thing the GOP says.

Your analysis is more sophisticated and shows more knowledge of the Democratic party, but I can't help notice the irony of some of his comments.

[merrily]

18. All I can say is this: If I were an African American Republican, I would have voted for Obama.

Especially if I had kids.

[BainsBane]

59. You aren't

You have no idea what it means to be African American, so you cannot possibly say what you would have done.
How can you even pretend to imagine what it is like to live in America with black skin when you do not?

There is actually exit polling data from elections, which means a lot more than your suppositions about what you would do.

[merrily]

64. ..

[brentspeak]

155. Well, we know you sure as hell aren't black

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024576614#post7

[BainsBane]

156. Of course I'm not

And I certainly don't pretend to know what I would do if I were.

Dontcha think the white face on the avatar might have been a wee bit of clue?

[7962]

129. Here's a statement from one who did just that:

Charles Payne in '12:
"You see, my superhero grandmother never used a pillow when she slept; instead she would simply cross her arms. She slept that way so she could hear the nightriders. Living a proud and resourceful life through those conditions put me and my cousins and now our children in a position to better experience the American Dream. For that I will be forever grateful. It was a debt I thought I could partially repay in the voting booth four years ago"

Although he did not vote for him in 2012.

[merrily]

134. Assuming I could somehow be a Republican and an African American and still

think anything like I do now, my reasoning would be that it was long overdue and, if such a popular African American candidate couldn't make it, who knows what negative effects that would have on the future? Also, all kids deserve great role models with whom they can identify without a lot of explanation

My most favorite photos of Obama are the ones he took with African American toddlers and kids on the campaign trail. I often think about the one in 2008 where Obama looks like he is holding on to a young one for all he's worth. It breaks my heart and warms my heart at the same time.

[uponit7771]

189. +1

[Number23]

203. Well said, BB. This OP is striking in the howls of denial. Notice I said "striking" not "surprising"

Black people have voted for strong white Democrats, weak white Democrats, in between white Democrats for DECADES.

One black man becomes president and all of a sudden, folks are tripping over themselves to "warn" us of the dangers of voting based on race. What the ACTUAL fuck??

The only thing worse than this comment is the (not surprising IN THE LEAST) howls from Sanders supporters that of course, what he said was gospel and as usual, that bigtree is the real racist for even discussing this.

[BainsBane]

207. Not just gospel

But just what MLK said, as "any adult knows."

[YoungDemCA]

13. My problem with the sentiment is that black voters and other persons of color do not have the luxury

Of ignoring or downplaying race. As we have all witnessed in recent months (and this very week), racism is still an extreme problem in the US - arguably, THE major issue, especially for the communities adversely affected by racism.

I respect Bernie, I really do, but I think he's mistaken on this issue - or perhaps, he simply didn't state what he meant to say eloquently.

[KittyWampus]

15. as I pointed out- Sanders sees everything primarily from an economic lens. There's another interview

where he says "demographics aren't his cup of tea" and barely touches on the social justice issues involved in recent events in Baltimore before circling back around to economics. As if those rioting in Baltimore had jobs/money they wouldn't be rioting.

He is not racist. He cares deeply. His votes are laudable. BUT- he sees things first and foremost as an economic problem to be solved. It's who he is. And he isn't going to change. He will probably start trying to address this going forward in the campaign but it's not going to come naturally to him.

[merrily]

19. With all due respect, you don't know how Sanders sees things. None of us do.

I am not sure I could tell you accurately how I see things or that my answer would not change from one week to the next.

[bettyellen]

30. Well between his website and his stump speeches it's a fair assessment..

He's got his specific plans, and all roads lead back to it. Except for global warming it's all about economics.

[merrily]

31. I disagree.

[bettyellen]

44. Fair enough! I think you're awesome anyway, lol.

[zeemike]

66. Well racial issues all lead back to economics.

But it seems people want to separate the two...and say if he talks about the E it means he is not interested in the R...because the E is only a concern of white middle class.

Always the divide and conquer strategy.

[heaven05]

97. no on the

"well racial issues 'all' lead back to economics". No. Don't, just don't.

[zeemike]

142. Have you ever heard of a cop beating the shit out of a black person

Living in a gated community?...unless they did not think he belonged there?

[heaven05]

144. it's just a matter of time

given the direction that racial hate, not economic disparity, has taken. Believe what you please, I speak from experience, what do you speak with....???????

[zeemike]

145. Lots of experience.

I was a young man during the civil rights era...and seen shit people would not believe today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025139769

[heaven05]

148. laudable

Last edited Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

I was a young man getting his ass whipped by a nightstick because he was AA. Same on seeing shit that would curl your hair. But your experience with the Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner murder I must say I stand corrected. Quite an eye opening experience for you. i do not diminish the importance of that. I edited this answer because I am tired from a long week of remembrance myself. 1963-4--2015 Nothing has really changed to lance that pus filled pustule of racial hate and division on the underbelly of america. I really don't think there is a lance large enough. I applaud your awakening.

[zeemike]

152. Yes it was but that was not the beginning or the end of it.

I spent over 20 years in the south.

But remember the festering of it only hurts you not them...get some rest and spend time in love for a while.

[Number23]

205. Cops arrest and beat the shit out of BLACK HARVARD PROFESSORS

Movie execs. Millionaire comedians. Just in the last two weeks the country has been discussing young black people getting harassed and beaten up by cops who live in an upscale community.

PLEASE just STOP. You DO NOT know what you're talking about.

[zeemike]

208. And please stop lecturing me about what I know.

I have no inclination to debate it with you...since you seem to know it all.

[Number23]

209. This is the first time I have EVER responded to you, particularly since you were the FIRST person on

DU3 to get blocked from the AA forum here. Quite the accomplishment! Thanks for helping everyone understand precisely why that happened.

Not only do you now know what you're talking about, you don't even know who you're talking TO. All the more reason that you should probably just stop talking about this issue.

[zeemike]

212. This is GD not a group.

And I don't go to groups...unless I make a mistake like I did with that one...and I remember the experience well...and who and why it happened.

And I don't care who you are...you are obviously hostile to me and that is all I need to know.
If you want me to stop talking then stop posting to me, it's that simple.

[Number23]

213. I don't give a flying fishtick about you. I am hostile to the oft repeated stupidity here that black

people of certain classes don't get harassed like poor black people do. IT IS WRONG.

Just because you don't read or understand things doesn't mean that they are not happening. Just a few months ago, Charles Blow -- a NY Times columnist whose son is a student at YALE -- talked about how his son was harassed at gunpoint by cops. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/opinion/charles-blow-at-yale-the-police-detained-my-son.html?_r=0

This is a man who writes for the NY Times whose son attends one of the top universities in the world and he's endured the same shit that lots of other black folks of all classes and education levels have endured. If you choose not to see this, that is your decision to remain ignorant. But if you are going to keep repeating that incredible bit of dishonesty and ignorance than black people like myself will continue to point out that you DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

If you want me to stop talking then stop posting to me, it's that simple.

That, along with everything else you've posted in this thread, makes absolutely no sense at all.

[zeemike]

218. I am not going to fight with you so give it up.n/t

[Number23]

224. Again, if you can't be bothered to learn what you're talking about before needlessly launching

yourself into conversations about race, then why not just save yourself the embarrassment and everyone else the aggravation and just stay out of it?

It seems that you could actually do a lot more good for yourself by reading/listening instead of trying to "school" people on something you clearly know little about.

[zeemike]

228. Again, not going to fight with you.

I can repeat that as often as you like.

[Number23]

231. You don't need to fight. You need to LISTEN. And I'll repeat that as often as needed too.

[zeemike]

232. Listen like you are the parent and I am the child.

Not going to do that thank you...and you are not going to provoke me so give it up.

[Number23]

233. No, listen like you are a person who keeps inserting yourself into topics that you CLEARLY have no

knowledge or understanding of. And I should change that from "listen" to "listen AND READ" because it's obvious you haven't done much of the second bit either.

And I love how you have so completely lost this argument in every way but think that if you keep typing "you're not going to provoke me" that you'll come out of this looking good or informed. I'm not trying to provoke you. Provoking you would imply that I care about your opinion or reaction.

I am EDUCATING you that the beliefs that you keep espousing on this board are devoid of historical understanding, facts and common sense. All of the "I'm not going to fight you" stupidity won't change any of that.

[zeemike]

235. Well you care enough to keep posting to me

Even after it is obvious no conversation is possable...you seem a bit obsessed...And I wonder if that parent/child thing you have going there is real.

[cascadiance]

86. I think Bernie feels we need to look at everything with as broad a perspective as we can...

Though a lot of his campaign is through an economic lens, I think he looks at it through many others as well too.

It's just that in his campaign he's emphasizing the economic lens, because with the corporate owned government we live in now, that lens from the people's perspective has been ignored for way too long, and affects everyone that isn't rich and powerful. That perspective appeals to a majority of Americans as well that can help him get elected too.

I don't think that he's dismissing the problems we have with race (and for that matter other forms of discrimination/oppression like gender, religion, and sexual preference that are also big problems in today's society too). I think he's trying to say that we should look at what people will do in the big picture and try to find the fundamental issues that echo out and affect so many of these other issues that we also need resolution on too.

Because he's an older white Jewish man, he's got a lot of "identities" that people will try to go after him with as if he can't work for those that don't share those identities. Just because someone like Clarence Thomas is a black man, Netanyahu is Jewish, or Margaret Thatcher was a woman in England, doesn't mean that they will necessarily do things that work well as leaders for those people that identify with their identities necessarily. Great people of color like Martin Luther King also realized that we needed to solve issues like economic problems too, and have worked hard to get those issues resolved as well as those of discrimination that he's so well known for (and SHOULD be!).

Obama has done many great things, and has had to do so with some very objectionable racist opposition too, that I constantly put down when I hear it as destructive and something that we need to fight to eliminate if we can. But he's also done things that I feel are potentially BIG mistakes, like him pushing TPA and TPP now, which could be very destructive to our country later. He shouldn't be immune to criticism just because he's a man of color, and has worked on issues like that and helping gay people in very admirable fashion.

And though I think FDR is one of the greatest leaders we've had in this country with what he did to help it out of the depression and make it in to so much more when he left office, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve criticism for actions like keeping people of Japanese ancestry in detention centers the way he did in his time.

When looking at two candidates, all things being equal, if one of them is a woman, or a person of color, or a person of different sexual preference, and I believe that person can win, I will vote for that person. That is why I initially pushed for us to have Elizabeth Warren run for progressives, since as a woman, she'd have our national discussion focus on issues rather than her identity when matched with someone like Hillary Clinton, AND I think it is high time that we get a woman as our president too!

But I won't vote for someone like Hillary Clinton to be our president, just because she's a woman, like so many wise women here on DU feel the same way, since I feel Bernie's stances compared to her are a lot more in representing people rather than corporate interests that fund her campaign.

I think that Bernie is trying to emphasize that the most important thing we need to look at when voting is how that person will stand on some of the fundamental issues that create the foundation for so many other issues we may even feel more important to solve, but can't when we can't solve these fundamental issues. It's hard to articulate this to a nation without being confusing, but people who feel strongly so much on other issues need to step back at times and look at the big picture, and know that some of these huge issues they want solved depend on fundamental issues like getting money out of politics, and keeping our court systems from being overridden by ISDS courts, etc. that will keep their issues from being solved too.

We're all in this together. We need to make it very clear what issues are important to us, but we need to make sure that the sum total of the platform of a candidate we vote for will work for everyone, and lay the fundamentals down to get our core issues resolved too.

That murder in South Carolina is horrible, and we NEED to solve these acts of TERRORISM as Thom Hartmann calls them, and the corporate media (because of who they answer too, because our system has them not be a real "free press" with its emphasis on money) keeps trying to avoid a healthy analysis of what is wrong with horrible criminals like Dylan Roof and those that align with him.

[uponit7771]

192. Except racial issues POC have to deal with? unnnnn...

[AgingAmerican]

94. That's the talking point

But looking at his vast record on these subjects shows otherwise.

[uponit7771]

191. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Thank God African Americans, Latinos, Asians, Jews, glbtq persons vote as a bloc...

Thank God African Americans, Latinos, Asians, Jews, and glbtq persons vote Democratic as a bloc to differing extents because we would be in deep doo doo if they didn't because a lot of white people do. Mitt Romney got 61% of them in the last election.

[erronis]

98. We all vote in blocs - whatever we call them there blocs

Nice - and I agree.

It's so easy to pigeonhole each other for quick IDs. It'd be a messy place if we all had to admit that our heritage included probably every race and creed under the sun.

Poor white-supremecysts that would have to acknowledge that their mommy had some cherokee, poppy had some african, nephew some oriental. Don't forget sissy who is lbgt/etc. Of course, we are pure - pure bigoted lily-white and stupid.

[Yo_Mama]

21. Seems to me very similar to stuff MLK said n/t

[BainsBane]

26. What?

[merrily]

36. Most adults know that. If you don't, google is your friend.

[BainsBane]

55. Where will Google take me to tell me that MLK said African Americans voted based only on skin color?

Where will it take me to tell me that MLK imagines voting for a single black president constitutes voting based on skin color? Where will it take me to tell me that MLK didn't fight for voting rights for African Americans but instead told they to do what white leaders tell them. Because I don't know this MLK.

MLK was a civil rights leader. He didn't dismiss the concerns of African American voters. Saying people should be judged on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin is not saying that African Americans don't know how to vote right. In fact, they weren't allowed to vote, and he fought to change that. Now, African Americans vote for Democrats. People who are not Democrats resent that, which is why we see the GOP make those same comments with some frequency.

Now I get there is an ongoing effort on this site to quite literally whitewash MLK, to pretend he didn't care nearly as much about racism and what really matters is white folks. I have seen it, and a number of African Americans have commented on the rather cynical appropriation of MLK.

I will not take notes from you on what MLK stood for. That you think it in anyway resembles these comments tell me you haven't got the first clue what you're talking about.

[merrily]

62. Oh, please. You replied to Yo Mama' post. Very obviously, that post did not mean that MLK

said that said African Americans vote based on color. He said things like racial justice and economic were inseparable

I will not take notes from you on what MLK stood for

Nor I you. Big deal.

[heaven05]

99. well

racism is NOT caused by economic inequality. It's caused by the hate of white people for black skin.

[merrily]

102. Of course not. But racism IS a cause of economic inequality.

Always has been, in this country, anyway. Yes, quite a few African Americans and members of other minorities can and do overcome poverty, but it should not have to be harder for them than for anyone else.

[heaven05]

122. no argument

yet racism is but one cause of economic inequality perpetrated by the corporate and banker 1%ers. Racism has but one cause, really...hate. Hate based on many reasons real and perceived, but at the bottom RACIAL HATE drives racism. Not economics, in my book. I've been dealing with it to long, and that with having a good job, a nice home ect, car, ability to help my step kids through college ect, ect. Hate is the driving force of the racism that will, sooner or later, tear this republic down. So far it's still Bernie, but Hillary did give powerful lip service to racial divisiveness today. Impressive on the surface, now my next question is, can I believe she'll work diligently, along with the many other problems in this country and world she would have to deal with, to bring about some semblance of a fair, equal and just society all can partake of without fear that a broken tail light will get you 5 bullets in the back?

[uponit7771]

193. MLK Spoke specifically of racism and racist issues affecting POC not just economic injustice

[AnnieO]

23. Some people do vote based on race or gender

I have African-American coworkers who weren't very thrilled with Obama but said they voted for him because he's African-American. Same thing I've encountered with Hispanics and local/state level politicans. How many women are going to vote for Hilary just because she's a woman?

I think that part of Bernie's appeal is that he focuses on issues that all decent hardworking people care about.

[marble falls]

32. Welcome to DU!

[zeemike]

75. Well part of the reason I voted for Obama was because he was black.

And I am white and believed him when he promised to stop the wars, close Gitmo and all the things he promised in his campaign because I thought a black person would be likely to do it.
That proved to be an overly optimistic view of race as a predictor of policy.

And welcome to DU.

[bettyellen]

25. Excellent questions- hope we can get clarity and not more bullshit saying this

Is accusing Sanders of racism. That is bullshit meant to inflame and derail and I hope we're better than that.

[KeepItReal]

27. By your logic I'm all in for Ben Carson, then

and how is the Black economic plight any different from any other racial group that is unemployed or underemployed?

President Obama clearly stated that he is not the President of Black America. And economically he has proven it. Black unemployment is still appallingly higher than other racial groups. Obama doesn't think it is his role to specifically address that. Do you think he should?

I appreciate what Attorney General Eric Holder has tried to do on voting rights, but that didn't stop the Supremes from gutting the Voting Rights Act nor these states from mass purges of voters and enacting voter ID requirements.

We are going *backwards* on civil rights under a Black President.

Sen. Sanders obviously means that a party shouldn't target specific races, but the entire population of people who need economic help. That group is way bigger than us Black folks, and we'd be happy for the help along with everyone else.

Free college, infrastructure spending-based jobs, and getting corporate influence out of politics all sound good to this African-American.

These efforts to try to gin up racial animus against Sen Bernie Sanders are getting up there with the "as far as I know" treatment Sen. Clinton gave Barack Obama when folks questioned his Christianity.

I don't want a President that will be able to say "I feel you" or "I know your plight". I want one that acts to help the bigger population and I'll just ride that wave with them. Because we all are in the same damn boat.

[leftofcool]

46. "how is the Black economic plight any different from any other racial group that is unemployed"

This isn't just about "Black economic plight." And even if it were, I think you already know the answer to your own question.

[KeepItReal]

47. I'm responding the OP about racial politics. What are you talking about?

eom

[bigtree]

51. actually, Bernie referred to our skin color

...and Ben Carson does not have an appeal which adequately or correctly addresses any of my concerns as a black American. That's a red-herring.

Read what I wrote:

"Black Americans have had a real need for candidates who aren't afraid to say, 'I'm one of you and I recognize, understand, and will directly respond to your particular concerns.'"

"...to be fair to Bernie, I think he makes a good point (if that's his drift) that merely electing a black president didn't, and likely wouldn't, wipe away the barriers to economic equality between blacks and whites; barriers like discrimination in hiring; discrimination in housing; discrimination in political representation, including voting rights and opportunities; discrimination in health care and access to services; discrimination in educational opportunities and resources...Still, there's definitely a disconnect in what he's saying here between the reality of blacks in America and his perception of the 'working-class.' "

Describing asking these questions as trying to 'gin up racial animus against Sen Bernie Sanders' is a cheap political deflection which allows you to avoid addressing my concerns as a voter and allows you to portray your candidate as some marytr to your 'racist' strawman. It won't work with me. Either your candidate makes himself clear on these issues or he'll be subject to whatever interpretation voters choose. Attacking my character for asking these questions won't make them go away.

[KeepItReal]

57. There are no Black Democratic candidates. So are you asking this of both Sanders and Clinton?

Or just Sanders?

Sen. Sanders participated in the March on Washington in 1963

I don't need to question his bona fides on Civil Rights.

[bigtree]

60. I'm questioning Sander's statement

...I've protested for civil rights, as well. Should I not be questioned?

[KeepItReal]

71. You listened to this NPR interview and got that specific point out of it?

This interview right here?
http://www.npr.org/player/embed/365024592/365151128

I listened to it and got nothing but a positive message from Senator Sanders.

The host called the topic was "Working Class White Voters Have Abandoned Democrats in Vast Numbers"

The NPR host's objective was to make a Democratic loss in the midterms an issue about race. Specifically a lower percentage of White voters in certain segments.

How did this become a Black issue, again?

[bigtree]

73. well,

...I actually think we could start an entirely different on on his comment about Hispanics.

Yes, I'm reading from the full transcript of his interview, and I'm addressing the issue that most concerns me. As with most everything I discuss on this board, i can accept that you may have a different perspective/opinion of what he said.


I'm willing to accept that he fumbled the question. It's going to be a long campaign. I'll bet he comes back to this one and clarifies himself.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

133. I wonder how many Dems are going to vote for Carson?

yes we are all in the same boat except for the 1%

[Le Taz Hot]

29. If you can't highlight your own candidate's

accomplishments and record and if/when/how she takes a stand on, well, anything, I guess the next best thing is to start flamebait threads on the candidate that apparently is making you hold-your-pee-pee kinda scared.

[pintobean]

34. That got alerted quickly. Awaiting results.

The person who sent the alert wrote: "hold-your-pee-pee kinda scared." Referring to a posters penis? Lousy argument.

[MelissaB]

37. It stands!

Edited to add votes.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"hold-your-pee-pee kinda scared." Referring to a posters penis? Lousy argument.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:55 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The person who sent the alert wrote: "hold-your-pee-pee kinda scared." Referring to a posters penis? Lousy argument.

Get a grip.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I laughed out loud. Le Taz is a hoot.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Pee-pee can also refer to piss. That's how I took it. However, if you're looking to be offended, one can always find a way.
I'm a Hillary supporter, and this nonsense infighting is bullshit. Petty flamebait, petty alerts. Grow up.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude personal attack.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pintobean]

40. Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The person who sent the alert wrote: "hold-your-pee-pee kinda scared." Referring to a posters penis? Lousy argument.

Get a grip.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I laughed out loud. Le Taz is a hoot.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Pee-pee can also refer to piss. That's how I took it. However, if you're looking to be offended, one can always find a way.
I'm a Hillary supporter, and this nonsense infighting is bullshit. Petty flamebait, petty alerts. Grow up.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude personal attack.

[Le Taz Hot]

39. I do believe the reference applies to

both genders, but I pretty much assumed someone would alert. I took a shot.

[bigtree]

54. flamebait?

...for some Sanders supporters here, it doesn't take much to set their hair on fire.

I post things about 'my' candidate all the time. I also answer questions about them without accusing people of posting flamebait.

I'm not afraid at all of Bernie Sanders. I'd have no problem with voting for and supporting Bernie, Hillary, or Martin. NONE of them, however, are above questioning on the issues I believe are important to me. It's amazing that some people here don't seem to get that we're not in a campaign on this board. We post as individuals with individual interests and concerns. In the end, we have one vote; our own. That should matter to people who are looking to promote their candidate here. Sometimes, I'm not so sure.

[Vattel]

167. Bigtree's candidate is O'Malley, not Clinton, and he

has authored several OPs highlighting O'Malley's accomplishments and record.

[Le Taz Hot]

168. Then he should continue to do so

and lay off the hit pieces, especially using Rovian tactics of partial quotes, half-truths and deliberate misinterpretation. We see this crap enough with the Republicans, we shouldn't have to see it here.

[bigtree]

174. oh, I will

...but I won't be bullied away by people's petty political defenses of a candidate from remarking on ANY politician's misguided notions on race, or any other issue I disagree with; especially ones which I feel are personally directed to me.

[William769]

33. Kick and highly recommended!

[madfloridian]

38. Political decisions should be based on other factors than skin color.

Voting decisions should not be based on race.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

[bigtree]

56. if you read what I wrote

...there are myriads of issues and concerns endemic to one's 'skin color.' What I'm referring to, and I think Bernie was saying is that we shouldn't vote based on just our skin color. That may well be, however, one of the most important factors in considering participating in a presidential vote: Does this candidate care about issues and concerns that are particular to my race? Does this candidate understand and appreciate those concerns and issues? How much focus will this candidate give to those issues and concerns?

I think it's perfectly understandable that black voters, for example, consider their race as an important factor in their vote, if not the sole factor, based on those things they feel need to be addressed which are particular to them. They can be economic, social, justice, health...

[madfloridian]

61. Any candidate can use the right words.

It has been ridiculously hard here to even try to prove that Bernie is not a racist. I have no idea why people suddenly believe that. He is pushing for economic reforms that benefit all of us who are not 1%. He has a long history of voting for such policies for the 99%.

So people will have to believe what they want I guess.

That is their right.

[bigtree]

70. the problem may well be that you've misinterpreted the questions

...as implying he's a 'racist.'

He's most certainly not. However, assuming that's all that's necessary in this campaign is to determine that he's 'not a racist' is an amazingly short-sighted view of issues of race in this country and the concerns voters have about the intentions and potential policies of these candidates.

[madfloridian]

83. The problem is...

that is how it comes across, I'm afraid.

Every candidate needs to improve on some issues, to learn to talk in a better way about other issues. That's part of politics.

The part that bothers me is that there are way too many posts that totally ignore all the populist, good for the people work that he has done.

[bigtree]

100. from where I sit

...it's the candidate's problem...and yours, if you choose it to be.

It's interesting that you ignore any credit I give Sanders and focus on the worst you can imagine that I meant with my very specific questions and concerns. Do you really believe that faith you have in this man suffices in the real world of voters who don't know squat about him? Why should I accept that his statements are inviolable, or shut up because you might think I'm calling him a racist? Many of the defenses here are more like attacks on the questioners than explanations. If you can't see the problem with that...

[madfloridian]

105. Don't assume I have faith in ANY politicians.

We have all been screwed by politicians way too often.

I just happen to prefer Bernie Sanders view of the world better than the other view right now.

I am simply stating my views of the problem, just like you are stating yours. I am not attacking in any way.

[bigtree]

114. okay

...I'm getting the latest standard treatment on this thread (not unexpected) for questioning a statement Sanders made on race - what I view as a despicable tactic of accusing questioners of calling him a racist and proceeding to portray him as some sort of marytr to their strawman. I noticed you mentioned people here assuming he's a racist. I think that's vastly overblown. What I do see are deflections from frank discussions of the issue of race and Sanders which serve political motives much more than questions about your candidate of choice.

But, I appreciate that you're not 'attacking' me.

[madfloridian]

119. Hey, I can't say anything right here anymore.

So keep asking your questions about Sanders and race. I won't respond anymore.

[bigtree]

121. no, you said a great deal right

...I'm just a bit defensive. My fault, not yours.

[Zorra]

77. +1

[socialist_n_TN]

43. This is one of the problems with populism........

The economics becomes the end-all and it has a hard time recognizing what Leninists would call special oppression and/or super exploitation. Marxists would basically agree that the economics provide the basis for oppression, but would also point out that some groups are especially oppressed and super exploited. This is an issue that cannot be ignored in the short to medium term. Oppression must be fought in ALL of it's forms and especially virulent oppression must be fought especially virulently.

One thing here I do agree with, by inference if nothing else. If you're a member of one of these especially oppressed groups and you're going to base a vote or support on color or ethnicity or gender, or orientation ONLY, you WILL face a conundrum because oppressors come in all colors, ethnicities, genders, and orientations. So do you support Ben Carson/Herman Cain because they're black? Ted Cruz because he's Latino? Michelle Bachman because she's a woman? Bob Iger because he's gay? Even though each one of these people wouldn't STOP the oppression against you and might even intensify it.

[bigtree]

67. you've raised a strawman about Carson and his ilk

...his politics don't adequately or correctly address the interests or concerns of black Americans, in my view. Moreover, the issue I'm addressing here is about whether voters should take their own skin color into consideration in their politics, not whether that consideration should lead them to support blacks because they're black; or women because they're women.

The issue is whether black voters are correct in considering their race as they make their political choices; considerations on issues and concerns which are particular to them - not just bullshit issues and concerns, either, like a non-black worrying about minorities in positions of power; or bigoted concerns about immigrants in our community and workplaces - but real and prescient concerns like voting rights; discrimination in hiring; health care disparities; economic disparities between whites and blacks; things which aren't necessarily encompassed by a generic focus on the 'working-class' vs. 'billionaires.'

[socialist_n_TN]

146. But those "real and prescient concerns..." you mentioned ARE ultimately economic........

in nature BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTGROWTHS OF THE ECONOMICS OF CAPTIALISM! And those problems won't completely go away until capitalism does.

But just because the problems won't go completely away until capitalism is gone doesn't mean that you don't fight oppression in all of it's forms in the here and now. You fight any and all forms of oppression because reforms can make some difference in the lives of some of the working class AND you fight oppression to show that reforms while keeping capitalism in place never gets rid of the problem altogether. Reforms merely ameliorate the problems somewhat, usually temporarily because there is profit to the owners in oppression and exploitation.

But mostly you fight oppression because it's the right thing to do.

[zappaman]

49. This quote bothers me.

"and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism"

I hear that alot from RWers "there's no more racism. Obama was elected" kind of nonsense.

[Bjorn Against]

106. Why did you chop off a very crucial part of that quote?

Here is the full quote:

What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president.

When you read the full quote including the part which you left out but I bolded it is clear that he is talking about one specific event and that is the election of Obama. It is absolutely true that Americans did overcome racism to get Obama elected, that does not in any way imply that we have overcome racism throughout society however. Bernie has been very clear throughout his career that we still have a long ways to go in order to bring about racial equality, the fact that Bernie stated that we overcame racism in one specific election does not mean that he thinks that racism has been defeated everywhere.

[Marr]

111. Well, because honesty wouldn't make for a good smear, of course. /nt

[840high]

229. ...^ that

[Autumn]

117. Very selective editing there.

[fishwax]

52. I think the label for the paragraph distorts the context somewhat

I agree with you that there are some problems with the quote. However, I think that reading the entire discussion in context (here's the full transcript) makes it a bit clearer.

The summary article labeled his comment as "On African-American support for democrats," but that doesn't give the full picture of what he is talking about. He is talking specifically about minority working class for democrats versus white working class support for democrats. He is saying that democrats appeal to minority voters for specific reasons, but that they don't make a forceful appeal to working class voters of any color, and he firmly believes that they need to.

Personally, I agree with him about that. I haven't decided who I will support in the primaries (and, since my state doesn't vote until June, it ultimately won't matter much), but I think a focus on economic justice is pretty essential for our nation's future. I also agree with the point Sanders is trying to make that such a plan would benefit people across demographic lines.

I disagree with what appears to be his assumption that immigration or a minority candidate has nothing to do with the question of "how is your family doing?"--since, obviously, for a large segment of the population those issues are pretty central to family stability, security, and happiness.

I also disagree with what the suggestion (which he may or may not be making, it's a bit tough to tell) that one must choose either or in terms of addressing minority issues and economic issues. He clearly thinks that making a forceful appeal on economic issues will appeal to white voters and will also help a large swath of minority voters. I agree with him that addressing economic issues helps minority populations, but I think this forceful appeal should be made in conjunction with a forceful and unyielding commitment to social justice, rather than as a substitute for it.

[mmonk]

72. I think he is saying how much policy has an efffect. Afterall, the AA community didn't

suddenly start supporting the party when Obama ran. In fact, in the beginning, they supported Hillary more. If Bernie were a racist, he would not have my support. But this is where Hillary has decided to play, despite how she played it in 2008.

[bigtree]

74. I don't believe at all that he's a 'racist'

...that's far from saying I believe he's correct in his views about politics and race.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

80. Next up: Cherry-picking intel to make it seem Iraq was behind 9/11.

[U4ikLefty]

82. Trying to attach a (dishonest) meme to Bernie, eh?

Or were you just-asking-questions (JAQing off)?

[Snotcicles]

90. lol.nt

[jtuck004]

84. Color a main consideration? That is precisely what he ran on and how we got Ronald Reagan,

Which is the best argument against it I can think of.

On the other hand, for a time in the 60s the early Malcom X could have been President. White folks might not have liked the aftermath, however...




That is precisely why one doesn't don't base it on skin color. Instead, you find a states person who knows, way down deep, that an injury to one is an injury to all, and that is reflected in their politics.

There will be small-minded bigots, people who live within their blinders who would argue that Bernie's position is self-serving, but that whole group should just go iron its hoods and sheets and bibles or something.

That concept of making sure your neighbor was doing alright as way to insure your own security was working really well when they walked away from it 1920. We would do much better. to adopt it today.

[Koinos]

87. Trying some alternative statements...

1. All African-American issues are economic issues.

2. Some African-American issues are not economic issues.

3. All issues of the American people are economic issues.

4. Some issues of the American people are not economic issues.

Not being a Marxist or a capitalist (both are types of economic reductionism), I believe that Numbers 2 and 4 are true.

It would also be true logically to say:

5. Some African-American issues are economic issues.

6. Some issues of the American people are economic issues.

Since racism has not been overcome in this country, candidates are expected to address issues that pertain specifically to the black community. In that regard, it helps to have experience and appreciation of what it means to be black.

Since many Americans suffer injustice not entirely caused by economic conditions, candidates have to address other important matters of social justice.

And there is the matter of immigration, which pertains to non-American human beings, their rights and dignity as persons.

[HassleCat]

88. Well, he's right

Black people should not vote for black candidates who sell out their interests, but they do. This is a big problem for women's organizations. I have seen them ignore a male candidate who supports them right down the line, but endorse a female who sells them out on a daily basis. Sanders is right, but voters align with special interests, and race and ethnicity are powerful special interests.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

101. My politics aren't based on color...or gender, or wealth, or likeabiltiy, or charisma, or

what brand of underwear the candidates wear.

[BainsBane]

201. Really? Because my life is about gender, race, wealth

or the absence thereof. How is it that you are able to transcend all the forms of inequality in society?
My politics are indeed about my rights and those of the rest of the subaltern, long oppressed by economic conditions and the dominant culture.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

202. I vote for issues...like the ones you mentioned.

And, I vote for, or against, candidates based on those issues. I voted for a woman in the last presidential election based on her stance on those issues you mentioned. Not because of her gender/race/wealth/etc. How about you?

[BainsBane]

214. Then why would you insist none of that matters?

I vote based on fundamental principles of equality and justice. I also don't respond positively to RW buzz words and people that seek to recapture the precious Republican white male vote while dismissing the majority of Americans as not knowing how to vote. I find it a reactionary position, which of course it is, and that is precisely why it has resonance with people who long to recapture a time when their race and class prospered at the expense of the many.

Then the fact that people here who have been accusing Democrats of acting too much like the GOP repeat and justify arguments that seek to attract Republican white male voters at the expense of the non-straight white male majority that votes Democratic. Republicans have long used such arguments to dismiss the rights and concerns of the majority, and now people here reaffirm and defend those same arguments.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

220. I don't respond to RW Buzz either.

That's why I vote for left wing candidates. Despite the RW buzz. I find it reactionary to vote for someone, or against someone, because of their race, gender, wealth, etc.

Where do we differ?

[Enthusiast]

104. Completely unrecommended.

Bernie isn't a racist. But you know that.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

107. I have two serious questions for you.

1. Did you pick a racial issue to attack Bernie at this time when the whole nation is raw from the Charleston massacre, as a mere coincidence?

2. If I, and others, suggest it is in extremely poor taste to raise it now, are you willing to self-delete the OP?

I recommend bringing it back in a few weeks when there has been some recovery from the shock. I would be happy to address your questions then. But right now, to address this kind of subject seems indecent to me.

[bigtree]

118. you think any discussion of race is inappropriate right now?

...or just one involving Sanders?

Ridiculous. There's a national conversation around the tragedy about the racial motives involved. That said, do you also believe Sanders made his comments to inflame the tragedy?

Should we just let these politicians speak and shut up about how we feel about their statements? What you're suggesting is ridiculous.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

123. Your post is indecent.

You're playing the race card for political gain while everyone is raw.

And you didn't answer my questions.

[bigtree]

125. no it isn't

...if I'm playing politics, then so is Sanders.

What you're really saying is that I don't have any standing to question a presidential candidate. How about the people here agreeing with him/ are they 'playing politics? how about the people accusing questioners of calling Sanders a racist? Are they playing politics? What about you on this thread? Are you playing politics? I've never experienced such cognitive dissonance on ANY issue here as I have with questions posed to Sanders on race. You take the cake, though. Sanders can speak, but if I criticize or question him it's offensive to you? Tough shit. Put the thread on ignore if it offends you so much. I'm not going to be bullied by you or anyone else here.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

130. Apparently you didn't read my objection.

Your post would have been fair game a week ago. It will be fair game in a few weeks. Right now it is toxic.

And you still didn't answer my two questions!

[bigtree]

131. I read it

...why would DU be off-bounds for a discussion of what a candidate said on the issue of race? It wouldn't. It shouldn't.

And, your questions are ridiculous. They don't merit an answer from me. Answer them yourself.

[William769]

141. This is the perfect time to ask the questions bigtree.

The opposition doesn't like at this time because it makes him look worse at what he said.

If he had not said it we would not be having this conversation.

[BainsBane]

137. Yep, you have no right

Sanders is more important than you are. He is more important than any of us. His career takes precedence over the people he would seek to represent.

The view that you cannot question Sanders views' is anti-democratic and anti-egalitarian. It is in fact reprehensible.

[BainsBane]

135. "Playing the race card"

is what the right says when it wants to avoid discussing racism. What is indecent is telling an African American he is "playing the race card," and he has no right to discuss questions about race following a racist killing because it makes you uncomfortable.

[Marr]

110. My understanding is that Sanders sees social and economic justice as inseparable, and

identity politics as something the 1% primarily uses as a wedge to separate people who really should be working together.

[nashville_brook]

140. ^^THIS -- we have a winnah!

it's not an unfamiliar theme Sanders is working here. you'd have bend over backwards and squint to find something untoward in this narrative.

[uponit7771]

196. So if the economic infrastructer of racial injustice was done away with racial issues POC face ...

...wouldn't be addressed on a national stage at all by Bernie?

That's a really tone deaf perspective of racial injustice POC go through... all POC can be rich...
Matter of fact, most of the blacks at the pool in McKinney were upper middle class POC ... living in 500 - 1 million dollar houses in that neighborhood...

The economic infrastructure of racial injustice can

[romanic]

210. Yep.

You got it!

[bobthedrummer]

113. I got that back in 1965, along with Black Panthers and SDS associates that moved beyond race n/t

[heaven05]

115. this is an ugly, ugly thread

racial hate is not based in economics. Period. Economic inequality can be coupled to social justice only because it is denied a lot of people of different races. Some because of their perceived privilege in skin color are just too blind to recognize this fact. Yes black people are denied social justice as well as that person who is of a different race based on economics as one factor. But white people and black people are completely different when it comes to Racial justice. Serena Williams is rich, but walking down to her match against the white opponent, someone can call out to her and call her a n.....! Which happened. Nothing to do with economics in any way, shape or form. Ever. Oprah the same thing. Any black person no matter their stature or status economically is still a n..... in this country to a vast number of white people even those who don't know that they are being denied social and economic justice by being confined to a minimum wage existence by the 1%, which has nothing to do with race....black people can be given the chance to legally, without redlining buy a home in any neighborhood, if they can afford it. Be given an equal chance at that good paying job, can be principled, have integrity, intelligence, helpful, literate, a state senator and the rest I've seen here, YET, a huge swath of the american populace will still hate a POC only because of the color of their skin and nothing else and will kill because of this fact.

Get real people, economics has nothing to do with white racism.

I think that MLK would have come to a different conclusion, if he had lived, and seen that the black garbage workers he died for still faced racism after their wages were raised to somewhat parity with white workers. Racism is not economically based it is hate, pure and simple.

[Number23]

206. An incredibly ugly thread. But not one damn thing about it has been surprising. Sanders supporters

will allow NO discussion of anything they perceive as a flaw of their candidate.

And the only person this stupid, reactive, counter productive stance is going to hurt is Bernie Sanders.

[otherone]

116. tldr

[arcane1]

126. Do you vote based on color? I don't.

[bigtree]

127. most of the issues that I care about center on race

...so I can completely understand a voter who chooses a candidate based on their attention and dedication to those issues.

[arcane1]

128. I was referring to the color of the candidate n/t

[bigtree]

132. that's not what I was discussing

...it has nothing to do with the issues I raised.

Republican candidates, for instance, no matter what race they are, are inadequate to most issues and interests particular to black Americans, in my view. Just because a black American might think in racial terms about their presidential choice doesn't mean they're going to insist on a black candidate. It means they are going to look for a candidate who adequately represents their particular concerns.

[daredtowork]

136. In my view race questions are always a trap

Because questions of race are so complicated, critics who oppose the candidate can always come in and twist what they say and attempt to make them look bad against this and that theoretical position or bit of demagoguery.

Consider this. The Southern Strategy was based on encouraging white people to blame their *economic ills* and *low social status* on people of color. This blame was used to justify *redistributing* money in the economy from social programs and public infrastructure. Money was divested from society and reserved to the super-rich.

What Bernie is saying is to *stop being hoodwinked by the Southern Strategy*. We are not in a competition for scarce resources based n color teams. All Americans are trying to take care of their families, and Bernie's "socialist" policies are about repairing that economic fabric and public infrastructure underpinning that the Southern Strategy tore apart. This doesn't mean racial identity isn't important or racism isn't the primary factor in fatal police encounters: it just means Bernie is starting with the economic underpinnings, and to call out the Southern Strategy he has to get people to recognize they have been voting against their own economic interests by voting to deprive black people. That's why he's urging people to "stop voting on color". That message seems to be on target and timely to me.

[Autumn]

138. I don't vote based on gender or race. I vote for a politician that takes a stand on issues that are

important to me. I don't even know what he meant by "...that's not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color." It could have been he was thinking too fast, got distracted or simply misspoke, no one knows but Bernie. The rest of the interview was spot on, and his record has been clear. This question of your's from your OP applies to more than just the Black Community, IMO :

Why should black Americans disregard their 'skin color' in choosing candidates and nominees for the presidency; especially when there are these efforts to downplay their particular concerns (centered on problems associated with their race) in favor of a colorblind appeal to the 'working-class?' Why should they put aside that identification with their own skin color when they represent, on the average, a disproportionately more disadvantaged segment of that working-class? Shouldn't they expect more from candidates than just another appeal which leaves their particular economic plights out of the discussion and their economic futures taken for granted?

I think in a perfect world no one would have to downplay their particular concerns in favor of any appeal to the 'working-class or the middle class but it's done all the time. Just ask the GLBT community, the Hispanic people and women how they feel about being taken for granted Ask the poor who are never mentioned by the politicians any more unless it's in passing in talks to cut their safety net.

Personally I think we should all expect a hell of a lot more from candidates than just another appeal for our votes based on a discussion about helping us out in regards to our particular economic plights and our economic futures then once in office those issues that were important to them in the campaign just fade out of their memory.

[tularetom]

139. I don't think Sen Sanders tailors his speech to suit the audience he's talking to

He doesn't have to keep track of what he said to who on what date because he is absolutely consistent in the content of his message.

He doesn't pander, he doesn't weasel, and he doesn't equivocate.

If you don't favor equality of income and wealth opportunity, don't support him. If you want a candidate who will oppose the economic elites in the country, support him.

[DesmondFoster]

143. Meh

If Marco Rubio was the GOP nominee and leading the polls, would people still feel the same way they do about this quote? Or would there be a lot more people on the left practically screaming this? I realize there are two different takes on the meaning, but if the scenario I mentioned was reality, I guarantee you'd be hearing that every day.

People will always clearly identify with people that look like, sound like, talk like themselves. That will never change.

What we really should be striving for in this country is a populace that is far more able to discern the WHY they should favor a candidate regardless of ethnicity. I was a fan of what Obama campaigned for, I understood his message, I was not concerned that he wasn't white like me. But I did feel there were black voters going to the polls and voting for him simply because he was one of them and that made me a slight bit uncomfortable. While we all may feel he was the best choice regardless, it has to sadden you on some level because the voting IQ in this country is currently at a low ebb, and it's further muddied by all the disparate voices out there in the media, social media etc. just banging out talking points every day.

As time goes on, there will be more and more black and hispanic politicians - more women vying for the highest seats in goverment. That's a GREAT thing. I hope it happens quickly too, so people that do vote based on a gender or race bias (however slight it might be) will still be forced to stop and think about WHY they're making that choice.

[bigtree]

147. Bernie wasn't talking about the race of the candidate

...he said:

"You should not be basing your politics based on your color."

I feel that is an oversimplification, at best. We base our individual politics on many singular factors. Race, however comprises a myriad of issues and concerns. I'm not talking about negative factors - maybe that's what Sanders was referring to; whites who are responding to appeals to some contrived notion of superiority over minorities - but there are perfectly valid reasons for people of color to consider their own race and issues which are particular to their lives; issues particular to their own success and advancement; issues particular to their employment; issues that involve discrimination; educational issues; voting rights issues; housing issues; justice; policing...those are perfectly reasonable concerns for black voters to base their vote on when considering their own 'color.'

[Cha]

149. I think he makes no sense here but I'm not a Bernie supporter so I won't elaborate.

[SusanCalvin]

151. Just saw this,

it's late, detaching myself and going to bed momentarily.

Some of the stuff in the OP doesn't sound the best - unless you add something I say a lot, "in a rational world," to it.

Spur-of-the-moment, sleepy reaction.

'night.

[Maedhros]

153. I appreciate your efforts to find something, ANYTHING, with which to smear Bernie Sanders.

It takes some amount of dedication, and no small amount of shamelessness, so I applaud your willingness to throw integrity completely out the window in favor of scoring political points against an opponent.

Bravo!

I see nothing wrong with anything Bernie has said, and historically I think most people of color have found Bernie to be an excellent ally. His ratings from various civil rights organizations support this (from here: http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/bernie_sanders.htm):

Rated 93% by the ACLU, indicating a pro-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 100% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 97% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)

So by all means, continue posting your concerns about Bernie. They are clearly unfounded.

[bigtree]

157. like this article I just posted?

Bernie Sanders: "It is time to end the politics of division in this country"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026873801

You feel superior trying to shame a black man for having the audacity to question a presidential candidate on his comments on race? Maybe you think it isn't my place to have an opinion on something which affects me personally? Am I being too uppity?

I composed a very reasonable and measured op which has been responded to with one attempt to shout me down or shame me after another. I'm not going to be intimidated from asking questions and offering up my opinion just because someone is more concerned with playing political defense than they are about my interests.

[Maedhros]

165. I understand your motivations. [n/t]

[bigtree]

171. no you don't

...you just talked down to me in a smarmy superior way.

Not only did you ridicule my thoughtful and heartfelt attempts to explain the questions and problems I have with Sander's remarks on race with a petty political defense of your candidate, you went on to suggest that since other people of color support him that should make my own opinion insincere or moot.

But hey, why should I have any problem with Bernie telling me I shouldn't consider the color of my skin when I make a presidential choice? Why should I have a problem with you telling me my objection to that is some political ruse? Maybe I should just take a back seat to his campaign; just sit down, shut up, and listen to you both dictate how I should feel, vote, and speak..

[Maedhros]

181. I appreciate your concern. [n/t]

[bigtree]

182. no you don't

...you're responding to my concerns with patronizing ridicule.

It's a wonder that you think that's an acceptable way to support your candidate.

[Maedhros]

186. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're sincere.

I think you're flinging mud at Bernie, and that your outrage is manufactured.

[bigtree]

187. you don't know me or anything significant about me

...but you're willing to project the worst motives you can imagine on my views expressed here.

Talk about manufactured outrage.

[Maedhros]

188. It's no coincidence that the forum has been deluged with posts accusing Bernie

of not supporting people of color. The Hillary campaign clearly found that this line of attack polled well with focus groups. I'm not at all surprised that posters here, whether agents of Hillary's campaign or simply supporters, would take up the smears as their own. I'm no longer in the mood to tolerate it.

[bigtree]

190. I'm not supporting the Hillary campaign. I have absolutely nothing to do with it.

...I do find it interesting, however, how you've sen fit to lob criticism after criticism against her person and complain on and on here about criticisms of Sanders with no hint of understanding of the irony and hypocrisy in that.

How ironic that statement of yours that you won't tolerate smears, when you're so willing to smear my own character with figments of your imagination. I'm not going to tolerate that.

[Maedhros]

194. Just calling it as I see it.

Notice that not once have I brought up Hillary's "white Americans" gaffe (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/08/clinton-touts-support-from-white-americans/) in response to any of these bullshit attacks on Bernie's character. Why? Because it is just one comment, taken out of context and not at all representative of Hillary's position on issues of race. It would be very disingenuous to take that one comment and turn it into an entire post about how Hillary doesn't care about people of color.

[bigtree]

195. you just did bring it up

...again, with no hint at all that you understand the hypocrisy and irony in your criticisms of my op.

Moreover, you presume to dictate to this black man on the manner in which I respond to a politician's comments on race; as if Bernie Sander's words are inviolable and unassailable. I won't be put in my place by your badgering and character assassination. I won't sit down and shut up. I won't be bullied into silence on the issues and concerns I believe in.

[Maedhros]

222. I'm not dictating anything.

I just think you're being disingenuous.

[Cha]

166. Way reasonable and you have every right to. I don't think Bernie would be offended that you're

asking questions.. I hope not anyway. but, some of his supporters are way too concerned with covering anything up if they think he's not looking perfect enough.

[JDPriestly]

154. Bernie may be referring to the fact that one of the Republican candidates for the primaries

is black and a couple of others are Hispanic.

I think Bernie was warning all of us (we women may face a similar choice in this primary) that we should look at what the candidates stand for and not their skin color.

A white Democrat could do more for people of color than any Republican of any race. That doesn't mean that people of color should not vote for a candidate because he is an African-American or a Hispanic. Not at all.

But none of us should vote just based on color or gender. I am a woman. I would love to see a female president. But Hillary doesn't stand for the things I believe in so I won't vote for her. I agree more with Bernie Sanders in particular on international issues and economic issues.

I think that all Democrats understand how crucial the race issues are. We just cannot go on with all of these shootings, killings and terrorist acts against African-Americans.

Whether Bernie or Hillary, African-Americans will be better off with a Democrat in the White House. I think that is part of Bernie's message.

Just because economics is his most important topic does not mean that racism is not also and nearly equally important. We cannot make good economic progress when people are held back and not able to live lives of dignity and equality because of the color of their skin or ethnicity.

[bigtree]

159. if that was what he meant

... when he said 'You should not be basing your politics based on your color,' he probably should have been more clear.

As I said in my op:

"...to be fair to Bernie, I think he makes a good point (if that's his drift) that merely electing a black president didn't, and likely wouldn't, wipe away the barriers to economic equality between blacks and whites; barriers like discrimination in hiring; discrimination in housing; discrimination in political representation, including voting rights and opportunities; discrimination in health care and access to services; discrimination in educational opportunities and resources...Still, there's definitely a disconnect in what he's saying here between the reality of blacks in America and his perception of the 'working-class.'"

[Bonobo]

158. Honest question, bigotry:

During the 2008 campaign, why did the Clinto campaign release this photo and then take umbrage at being criticized for it?

Do you think it was done without malicious intent?

[bigtree]

160. malicious

...I don't know if I'd say it was 'malicious,' but it definitely appears to be a low political tactic designed to play on the fears of bigoted white voters.

Personally, that image doesn't strike me the way it was intended to be received by whoever they were targeting. I happen to appreciate his embrace of (Indonesian?) culture and this small gesture of identification with his hosts.

What that has to do with the comments I made in the op is a mystery. I think you're responding to the deflections in responses here to the valid points I made in my questions and observations of Bernie Sander's comments.

[Bonobo]

161. I think if we are going to cast aspersions, you should expect some kickback, bigtree.

The issues are not different. We are talking about racism and race-related campaigning and politicizing.

I am pointing out that HRC does NOT have a clean track record.

Is that not fair?

[bigtree]

162. I don't think it's going to be sufficient to point to Hillary or anyone else

...to explain away Bernie Sander's own words.

Again, you aren't even remotely responding to ANYTHING I wrote in my op. You're addressing the political deflections made by posters defending Bernie sanders against any question of his views or comments on race. I don't have a problem with 'kickback' on something I've actually written, but the majority of the comments against me on this thread are against strawmen about a supposed political attack constructed to deflect from the very valid and thoughtful points I made.

You're fighting against the notion that I'm supporting Hillary Clinton in this primary. I'm not. I support Martin O'Malley. Moreover, I posted a very direct criticism of his own inability to directly address the issue of racism this morning in an op responding to his statements on the Charleston shooting.

[Bonobo]

163. If this OP were in a vacuum, I would tend to agree that your points are thoughtful and therefore

deserving of due consideration and commentary.

Unfortunately, of late, Hillary supporters have made a concerted effort to paint Sanders as -at best, uncaring of race issues, and at worst, intimated that he is a closet racist (I say "intimated" because it i precisely that as opposed to outright statements.

In that light, it is hard to address your OP without taking into account this atmosphere created of late and to see this as contributing to it either intentionally or not.

[bigtree]

164. I'm not a Hillary supporter

...and my comments aren't made in a vacuum. They're part and parcel of my very consistent efforts over the years to speak frankly and directly on issues of race, no matter who the figure is.

You're fighting against the notion that I'm supporting Hillary Clinton in this primary. I'm not. I support Martin O'Malley. Moreover, I posted a very direct criticism of my presidential choice's own inability to directly address the issue of racism this morning in an op responding to his statements on the Charleston shooting.

[AtomicKitten]

215. Parsing his words is a line of attack nowadays and it's weak.

[raouldukelives]

169. One has to understand that the racism trickles down.

That in fact the only measurable things that have ever truly trickled down to the least among us are hate, malice, distrust, bigotry and the ethics of the wealthiest in the world. I want America to represent the desires of Americans. Not Australians and Emperors. Not dictators and Sheiks.

Once one does, the rest of what Bernie is saying starts to make sense.
Some work for change, some for more of the same.

[DCBob]

170. I agree, this sounds like Bernie doesn't have a clear appreciation for the issues affecting POC.

Also I dont agree with Bernie that it's just about "how is your family doing" when voting. There are other big picture issues that we also all should consider... environment, civil rights, racial inequality, gay rights, worker rights, women's rights, etc.

[bigtree]

172. exactly

...if we are talking economics, he shouldn't insist that there aren't more importasnt considerations at stake than just a disparity between the working class and billionaires; there's a wide gap between the white working class and black workers income and wealth.

First, a colorblind focus on the working class leaves that disparity in income unspoken and relegates the issues associated with that disparity to a second class role in a political appeal.

Second, the reasons for those disparities aren't entirely economic ones; they include discrimination in employment; housing; political representation; and educational opportunities from early childhood to college; and other historic shortcomings in society.

Third, there are also issues of justice and law, policing, voting rights, which many people of color may reasonably focus on when considering the color of their skin as they vote.

In the broader picture, as you've outlined, considering singular characteristics, traits, and identities can be paramount for voters in making their presidential choices on issues which can't be addressed or remedied by a myopic focus on the economics of the working class.

At best, Bernie's admonitions are short-sighted - perhaps meant to target bigoted political appeals, but missing the mark when considering a vast number of voters and their particular concerns.

[DCBob]

175. Bernie seems overly focused on the issues of economics.

I am sure he cares about the other things but its not always apparent in his speeches.

[bigtree]

176. one positive thing that I've noticed has occurred

...is that the prominent criticisms of his candidacy about his neglect to discuss race (and immigration) at length has prompted him to speak out more on his views which are very much in the Democratic mainstream and mostly laudable.

However, he does reflexively rely on his economic focus to define his social positions. He should realize that not all of black voter concerns originate from lack of economic success, and, for those who are struggling economically, those disparities may not be due to solely economic barriers.

[uponit7771]

197. +1, on issues POC deal with Bernie comes out on the side of common sense justice but on

... the specifics it sounds like he's staying away from it.

The 2A votes bother me too... don't want such promise to end up like Kerry

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. "Whenever any group can vote in a bloc, and decide the outcome of elections, and it fails ..."

"Whenever any group can vote in a bloc, and decide the outcome of elections, and it fails to do this, then that group is politically sick."

-Malcolm X

[Vattel]

177. I hope all of the candidates address the issues you raise because they are extremely important.

I would especially like to see what they propose to do to address the economic disparities between white and black Americans and the inequality in opportunity that is the primary source of those disparities. I would also like straight answers to the question of how they would address mass incarceration. I have not yet been convinced that any of the candidates take these issues seriously enough, but maybe I missed something.

[ismnotwasm]

178. Kick and Recommended

Very thoughtful piece, and your replies throughout this thread remarkably civil, given the general tone of many of the replies. It kept this thread very readable and interesting and I thank you.

[2banon]

180. What he's not comfortable saying, but I will. "Identity Politics" should not be placed above

economic interests. A Black President married to Wall Street is not an ally of the poor, and the working poor, working class. Do the math on the demographics of the poor, the working poor classes.. look at the socio-economic results of the Wall Street - Too Big To Jail - Bankster era and one will find that the results of the policies of the current president are absolutely dismal.

Same must be said and considered wrt to the potential first Woman POTUS. Would that be Hillary, or would that be Carly Fiorna? I wouldn't want either one of them as the first Woman POTUS.. the interest of both are not with the working poor Women in this country.

In my opinion, the final analsys is a CLASS analysis. Race and Gender is secondary.

It isn't enough for the POTUS to say to the voters, As a Woman or an African American (or other POC) "I know your struggle, I lived your pain" .. because some, clearly have either forgotten or never quite knew that struggle.

Though I totally get the inclination the temptation, one shouldn't base their vote on skin color or gender alone. It's seems rather obvious to me, but apparently the lesson hasn't quite hit home with far too many, which is rather depressing.

[bigtree]

184. Sanders wasn't talking choosing a black or female president

...he was talking about self-identification and voting based issues particular to our race:

"You should not be basing your politics based on *your*color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing...?"

That's simplistic and short-sighted reasoning, at best. The issues, interests, and concerns of black Americans (or immigrants) can't all be addressed by lumping solutions under his (or anyone elses) economic appeal.

[BainsBane]

211. You mean the identify of others doesn't count

while class identity does.

Guess what? Neither you nor Sanders decides how anyone else votes. You all can worry about getting the support of Republican white men all you want. I'm a Democrat, and I don't respond well to RW buzz worlds like identify politics and "voting based on race" to dismiss the concerns of the majority of Americans.

The very suggestion that people of color, rather than whites, vote based on skin color is a stunningly tone death. African Americans have voted for white politicians their entire lives. Women have voted for male politicians their entire lives. White men have voted for white men their entire lives. Now tell me who votes on race.

[MellowDem]

183. Identity politics have been used by TPTB...

For quite a while to keep us divided, and corporatist Democrats are more than willing to use it against us to get Hillary, their candidate, in. They did in the last primary, they will in this one.

It doesn't just work on whites. It hurts everyone. Hillary is worse for minorities than Bernie, her policies will be worse for them because her policies preserves white privilege.

There's a reason racial gaps haven't been closing with Obama in power, all of our policies continue to preserve them, and nothing in Hillary's platform will change that dynamic.

[bigtree]

185. voters have been voting on interests particular to their lives for as long as there was a vote

...but somehow, blacks and immigrants are to be told they can't consider interests and concerns associated with their race in their presidential choices?

[MellowDem]

199. Sure they can...

just like whites do, but voting based on race alone often leads to voting against your own interests, so if someone votes for a candidate because they've successfully branded themselves as supporting a certain race, but their actual policies will hurt you or are not as beneficial for you or your whole racial group, you get what you get. And there's a ton of identity politics out there, and it works.

Blacks voting for Ben Nelson, or women voting for Carly Fiona, because of identity politics, are great extreme examples of this.

Whites engage in lots of voting based on identity, and the sad part is that on some level, it makes sense because they are voting for a Party that maintains white privilege, but overall are terrible even for whites.

The Republican Party in its modern form was largely created by racial politics, and not just racial, the Democratic Party shouldn't go down the same road, as identity politics are great for keeping the status quo, divide and conquer becomes quite easy.

[bigtree]

200. comparing the concerns considered by black voters over issues like discrimination, voting rights

...educational opportunities, policing, justice, etc. to the bigoted, exclusionary expectations and desires of some white voters is offensive and ludicrous.

Moreover, you're misreading what was said. Sanders said NOTHING about who to vote for. He spoke about voters taking their own color of skin into consideration when they vote. NO ONE has said ANYTHING about voting for republicans who don't give a damn about black concerns and interests. Holding that up to what I've written is a lack of reading comprehension of what Sanders said or what I said in response.

Do you even realize how offensive it is that you've compared my concerns as a black man to the concerns of bigots?

[MellowDem]

216. Talk about reading comprehension...

I didn't compare what you said I did, I didn't claim Sanders said who to vote for.

Your initial response seemed to be veering to a new topic, as it was completely unrelated to my original post.

I never said blacks and minorities couldn't vote on their interests... But you brought it up as a question, so I addressed that they can. Maybe it wasn't that though, maybe you were just baiting? Seems like it now.

If you are just looking for a fight, look elsewhere.

[bigtree]

219. Sanders talked about what voters should base their politics on

...You, however, raised an entirely different subject from what either Bernie or I was talking about by raising the issue of 'identity politics' and why Hillary wouldn't represent someone's interests.

Maybe you should start your own thread about that.

[MellowDem]

221. I think he was trying to address...

Identity politics, as in, just because someone says they are your buddy, doesn't make them one. Just because Jeb says he is Hispanic culturally and can speak fluent Spanish and has a Hispanic wife it doesn't mean he's going to address the issues Hispanics want addressed, much less in the way they want them addressed.

I didn't get that blacks shouldn't care about issues that effect blacks or vote on those issues, I don't think that's identity politics, I can't imagine that would be his position as it would conflict with a lot of his other positions. I've always understood identity politics to be very shallow and tribal. Not based on policy or issues that effect you or a group in general, but on fear and demonization of other groups to create a certain in-group, and on the comfort that comes with being able to vote for someone that seems like you.

I brought up Hillary as she's the most likely nominee right now, and she has in the past used the same tactics, it's part and parcel of American politics now to pander to different demographics in the most shallow way possible, even if the politicians policies will hurt that demographic, always has been.

I agree with most every point of your OP, I think white men (and women) have been catered to for a long time in identity politics because that's unfortunately how our representative democracy works, they're the majority and are a wealthy and powerful demographic. Maybe Bernie is wrong in thinking if voters concentrate on policies and issues instead of identity politics, white voters will come around. I think that's how it should be, but in reality, I think that most voters are pretty ignorant of other group's needs or issues, much less their own, and 40 percent don't even vote, and it's why we have the government we do, and it's why we'll have the candidates we will.

[2banon]

234. Bingo! I was having hard time articulating pretty much what you just did so clearly.

exactly spot on.

[craigmatic]

217. This country has not overcome racism. President Obama overcame it to get elected. Let's tell the

truth.