Boston Globe: Bernie Sanders "out of sync with most liberals" on gun control.

[pnwmom]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2015/06/19/bernie-sanders-has-favored-lighter-touch-gun-control-than-hillary-clinton-martin-malley/w28HABk8NLT59aSl5gzZNO/story.html

WASHINGTON — Senator Bernie Sanders has built his insurgent presidential campaign by trying to outshine Hillary Clinton on populist economic issues. But political reaction to the racially motivated mass murder in a Charleston, S.C., church this week highlighted an area where he’s out of sync with most liberals: gun control.

Sanders, from Vermont, a rural state where support of guns and hunting is part of the political culture, has amassed a mixed record on proposed gun restrictions in his years as a congressman and senator.


The self-avowed Democratic socialist once earned a C- rating from the National Rifle Association — not a high mark for a Republican contender, but one that sets him apart as practically gun friendly among the 2016 Democrats vying for the nomination.

The issue isn’t one that Sanders typically discusses on the stump, unless a question comes up. But after Wednesday’s church shooting, gun control back has bounced back to the national agenda. Interest in Sanders and his positions also has spiked as he has attracted large numbers of people to his events who are eager to listen to the most prominent liberal alternative in the field to Clinton.

SNIP

[Aerows]

1. I could just as easily say

that pnwmom is out of sync with my view on gun control, and it would be just as substantial. It's a whole bunch of assumptions not grounded in facts or even relevant to 2015.

If you accept that President Obama evolved on gay marriage, you are going to have to build a bridge and get over it that Sen. Sanders has evolved on gun control.

[arcane1]

3. Especially since he was never against "gun control" in the first place.

This is Rovian bullshit.

[Aerows]

7. It really is.

It's an example of dirty politics is what it is.

[arcane1]

13. Desperate, too. He's been running for 2 months and this is all they have

[pnwmom]

15. He voted against the Brady bill after Jim Brady was shot.

And he voted for the PLCAA, which wiped out laws that held gun manufacturers liable for the misuse of their products.

His record on gun control is decidedly mixed.

[Aerows]

19. Again, is he not allowed to evolve

like President Obama and Hillary Clinton on issues? Because the Brady Bill was a long time ago, longer ago than the IWR, current gay marriage debates and many other pertinent issues.

But, please, proceed.

[pnwmom]

20. Today, when he was specifically asked about gun control,

his response was that urban and rural residents had different views on that.

Which has been his view all along.

I don't see any evolution there. He's missing his chance to come forth with a stronger position now.

[Aerows]

23. I don't see how he is wrong.

Urban and rural residents do have very different views on gun control for very valid reasons.

He states facts. He's not prevaricating as you insinuate. He's telling it like it is.

[DanTex]

26. And northerners and southerners have different views on the confederate flag...

[Aerows]

34. Very different issue

If you live in the sticks and get attacked by a wild animal, with emergency services miles away, are you going to have the same opinion of owning a fire arm as a person that lives in the city with ample services in the immediate area?

I don't think you will. There are valid reasons to owning a fire arm. Here, I'll offer another example. Alaska. Would you want to live in rural Alaska without a firearm?

I'd hope some folks from rural areas would speak up about this. Things are very different in rural life than in urban life.

[DanTex]

42. Sure, but both are horrific in their own ways.

Since nobody is remotely talking about stopping people who live in the sticks from owning a gun to protect themselves from animals, that point is entirely irrelevant.

There are plenty of rural people in countries like Canada and Australia, and yet those places have the gun problem under control. To say "rural and urban people have different views" in the face of a gun violence epidemic that claims tens of thousands of lives every year is a cop-out, pure and simple. People who work an Wall Street have a different opinion of financial regulation than people who don't -- this is another nominally true statement that completely misses the point.

Bernie is a brave and admirable politician in many ways. But his take on the gun violence problem is not one of them.

[Aerows]

43. Once again, you are pinning

"lax on gun control" on Bernie, when it is clear he has evolved on the issue. Dredging up things like the Brady bill is as useful as pointing out that Hillary was a "Goldwater Girl".

It's silly and a smear tactic.

[DanTex]

44. I am talking about the statement that rural and urban people differ on the topic.

In light of the gun violence epidemic that we are facing, that is a cop-out. It is an equivocal response to a catastrophic problem. Unless it is accompanied by saying that despite those differences, we need to join the rest of the civilized world which means significantly strengthening our gun laws. Which I don't think it was.

[Aerows]

46. He addressed racism

He didn't bring up gun control in his statements. He should have, but I do know that he has an "F" from the NRA, and he has since advocated for saner gun laws.

Martin O'Malley gave some blistering comments on gun control and our lack of acting on them, while highlighting his work in Maryland. I really appreciated his statements.

If you don't want Democrats to back Sanders on the particular issue of gun control, that's okay - we have another candidate that confronts it head on - Martin O'Malley. Frankly, I like both of them.

[DanTex]

47. I like all three of the leading primary contenders.

What I don't like is the idea that we should be equivocal about gun control. On a lot of issues Bernie's views are the best of the three. But guns is not one of them.

[Aerows]

48. Look at O'Malley

He's pretty damn frank in his views, and has a record to back it up.

[DashOneBravo]

40. Some southerners

[DanTex]

45. Agreed. And also some northerners.

[DashOneBravo]

79. Agreed.

Have a good weekend Dan.

[pnwmom]

28. He's correct -- and avoiding the issue.

The question is what is his view on gun control, now, in his campaign for President. It isn't enough to say that people differ on this issue.

If Hillary gave this kind of answer you wouldn't say she's "telling it like it is."

[Aerows]

31. He's right

We agree.

I don't see it as avoiding the issue.

As for what Hillary says and HAS said, I really appreciated what she had to say in light of the South Carolina massacre. I think she told it like it is, too.

You don't get to assume what anyone but you thinks about anything. Discredit people all that you want, but discredit them based upon what they say and do, not what you imagine they might say or might do.

[sheshe2]

41. Ummmm~

He is running for President of The United States of America. Not rural America, all of America.

[Cha]

81. Precisely, she.. totally avoiding the issue, too.

[MannyGoldstein]

96. Sanders voted for stringent American gun control in Iraq

and bomb control.

He voted to not kill hundreds of thousands of people.

I know that's not an important issue for you right now, but please consider it a little.

[NobodyHere]

104. Well Bernie supporters don't allow Hilary to "evolve" from her Iraq War vote.

So I can choose are not with my vote whether or not I allow Bernie to evolve on his past positions.

[quickesst]

108. Wrong. ..

Clinton and Obama are not allowed to evolve. Sanders supporters make that clear by continually beating this thing into the ground. Goldwater girl, iraq war, and the list goes on and on, So no, the only one allowed to evolve is apparently bernie sanders.

[Ghost in the Machine]

77. Should Automobile makers be held liable when some nut decides to mow down a crowd of pedestrians?

Should Alcohol makers be held liable when some drunk idiot decides to assault, rape or kill someone?? Knife Makers? Hammer Makers? Gasoline Producers because an arsonist used *their* product?? Can we sue a church, as god's representative, if someone kills a person with a large rock or a tree branch, or drowns them in a river or lake??

Bernie Sanders is on the right side of this issue, or look at the long, slippery slope it could lead to...

Peace,

Ghost

[pnwmom]

80. An automobile dealership would be held liable if it negligently sold a vehicle

to a person who wasn't allowed to own one, and ran into someone else with that vehicle.

[TM99]

84. You completely changed the question to make your false answer.

Yes, a dealership may be held liable. Ford itself, no.

Yes, a dealer who knowingly sells a handgun to someone not allowed to own one. Smith & Wesson itself, no.

[pnwmom]

90. Before Sanders helped pass the PLCAA, people who had been injured by guns

were starting to meeting with some success in suing the manufacturers -- which is why the NRA pushed so hard for the law.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/

Before the PLCAA, lawsuits were starting to prod the gun industry to act more responsibly. In 2000, Smith & Wesson, the nation’s largest handgun manufacturer, agreed to a variety of safety conditions to end lawsuits that threatened to put it in bankruptcy. Among other things, Smith & Wesson agreed to put a second, hidden set of serial numbers on all of its new guns to make it harder for criminals to scratch away the identifying markings.

But the PLCAA took away the pressure to work on safety. Protected against lawsuits, gun manufacturers have less incentive to develop improved technology for locking guns when they are not in use and gun dealers have less reason to worry about whether the person they are selling a firearm to will use it to commit a crime.

[TM99]

97. So you won't admit that manipulation you attempted

to foster on us?

[pnwmom]

98. Just as soon as you acknowledge that the PLCAA is a bad law

that keeps manufacturers of poorly made guns from being sued by people who were injured by them.

[TM99]

100. Not even the same, just games.

The PLCAA is not a bad law. No other manufacturer would be subject to such lawsuits.

Some gun control advocates, and you appear to be one, want to turn back time and completely do away with guns in America. It is NOT going to happen.

Can we put forth legislation to require manufacturers to put serials numbers that can't be removed? Sure.

Ban assault weapons? Sure.

Extended magazines? Sure.

That is why I support Sanders. He has found a nice balance between 2nd Amendment rights and gun control.

[Ed Suspicious]

86. Who isn't allowed to own a vehicle and how would a dealership know/confirm that.

Also, a car dealership is not analogous to a gun manufacturer. If I made a product that works as intended, then I sold it to a distributor who sells it to a retailer who sells it to a consumer . . . how again should ai be held responsible for the consumer's potential negligence?

[pnwmom]

88. They require seeing a driver's license before they'll let you drive a vehicle off the lot.

[Ed Suspicious]

91. You're really reaching. In my state I don't need a license to be a title holder.

Maybe I could have the my wife drive it home. Maybe the car hauler I hired can put it on the back of his truck to transport it across the state.

[pnwmom]

92. The PLCAA also stops people from suing manufacturers for negligently selling guns

that cause unintended injury to people.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/

Before the PLCAA, lawsuits were starting to prod the gun industry to act more responsibly. In 2000, Smith & Wesson, the nation’s largest handgun manufacturer, agreed to a variety of safety conditions to end lawsuits that threatened to put it in bankruptcy. Among other things, Smith & Wesson agreed to put a second, hidden set of serial numbers on all of its new guns to make it harder for criminals to scratch away the identifying markings.

But the PLCAA took away the pressure to work on safety. Protected against lawsuits, gun manufacturers have less incentive to develop improved technology for locking guns when they are not in use and gun dealers have less reason to worry about whether the person they are selling a firearm to will use it to commit a crime.

[Ghost in the Machine]

87. Sorry, but a totally blind person can *OWN* a vehicle, they just can't be licensed to drive it...

... they can have a friend, relative or caretaker drive them around in their own vehicle. The only restrictions that I have heard of is some States you have to be 18 years old to register a vehicle in your name, while other States allow 16 year olds to register then. My Daughter had just turned 17 at the beginning of her Senior year of High School. When she got her license at 16, I used to let her drive herself and my son to school in my vehicle. Senior year, she bought her first car with money she had saved, although I added some to it to help her get a nicer car, and she had it registered in her name.

Peace,

Ghost

[pnwmom]

89. I've never bought a vehicle when I haven't been required to show a driver's license

in order to drive it off the lot.

[Ghost in the Machine]

99. That is just anecdotal evidence, pnwmom. Please look up the laws on vehicle ownership in your state.

When I lived in Georgia and Florida, you couldn't even get a tag without proof of insurance, although you can get insurance without a license, you just have to exclude yourself as a driver and name a primary licensed driver to your policy. I just had to exclude my own son from my policy because his license got suspended for not paying a ticket. It was going to cost ME an extra $200/month to keep him on there. NO WAY am I paying that! He is almost 22 years old. MY parents never paid for my, or either of my sisters tickets, nor would they ever pay bond to get one of us out of jail. I am the same way with my "kids". though they are both adults now.. son almost 22 and daughter almost 23...

Peace,

Ghost

[Kalidurga]

103. Someone should sue the pressure cooker manufacturers...

that product can make a very deadly bomb.

[dsc]

39. He most certainly was

He has changed his views some but he voted against the assault weapons ban, he voted against the brady bill, he voted to immunize gun manufacturers from lawsuits about their marketing practices. He had an A from the NRA until quite recently. Again, he has changed his position to some extent but he most certainly was one of the most anti gun control liberals in the US Congress for much of his tenure.

[frylock]

52. Sanders voted YES on AWB

[dsc]

53. not in the 90's he didn't

He did change his mind on that issue but he most assuredly did not vote for the assault weapons ban in the 1990's. It is a matter of public record.

[frylock]

54. BILL TITLE: CRIME CONTROL AND PREVENTION

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1994/roll416.xml

[GGJohn]

56. Wait a minute!!

You mean all these people that were lambasting Bernie about his AWB vote in 94 were wrong?
Imagine that.

[frylock]

58. shocking, I know

[dsc]

70. In fairness he did vote for adding the ban as an amendment

which I thought he had voted against, but still he did vote against the bill itself which is a vote against that ban.

[frylock]

71. I'm going to need you to link to something definitively stating that Sen Sanders voted against AWB

[dsc]

72. It was in the overall bill

which he did vote against, the one you linked to. He did vote to add the AWB to the bill though, which I admit, I thought he hadn't.

[frylock]

73. what?

[dsc]

74. the crime prevention bill

had the assault weapon ban in it. Sanders voted against it. Even his ardent supporters here admit that. It is a matter of public record. He did vote against the final version of the bill which passed that included the AWB. That said, he did vote for it as a stand alone amendment and I admit to being wrong on that.

[frylock]

83. The fuck?!

There were 235 AYES in favor of the Crime Control and Prevention Bill, of which AWB was a part of. Senator Sanders voted AYE on the Crime Control and Prevention Bill. Once again, I'm going to INSIST that you to link to something definitively stating that Sen Sanders voted against AWB.

[dflprincess]

55. So the vote he cast in the 90s

says more than the vote he cast more recently?

We're told how Obama and Clinton have "evolved" on some issues but Bernie can't?

[dsc]

57. This is what I was responding to

Especially since he was never against "gun control" in the first place.

Yes, if a person votes against an assault weapons ban then you can't now claim he was "never against gun control".

[pnwmom]

5. How has Sen. Sanders evolved on gun control? Has he changed his position or even re-stated

it since the Charleston massacre?

[Aerows]

9. Has Clinton stopped beating her husband?

Jesus. Talk about leading questions and dirty pool.

[arcane1]

16. Try reading your own link. If you're too lazy, try post #10

You really need to try harder. I'm getting embarrassed for you.

[AgingAmerican]

65. He doesn't need to

Because he did so decades ago.

[arcane1]

2. Again with this?

Trying to link Sanders to this horror is despicable.

[Aerows]

4. President Obama is allowed to have evolving views

and so is Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders? I guess not.

[arcane1]

10. Notice the OP didn't use the headline, and conveniently didn't post this part:

At other times, Sanders has supported gun control measures, including voting for an assault weapons ban and supporting President Obama’s gun control package in the aftermath of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting that left 20 children and six adults dead.

The National Rifle Association awarded Sanders an F rating in 2002 when he ran for reelection in the House of Representatives. The grade changed to a D+ in 2004; a C- in 2006 when he ran for the Senate, and most recently earned a D- when he ran in 2012.



With friends like these...

[Aerows]

12. No kidding

Just mudslinging.

[pnwmom]

17. I posted the first four paragraphs of the article. Copyright law prevented me from posting more.

As you can see, he has a very mixed record on gun control.

[Aerows]

21. Should I bring up the things

that Hillary Clinton has a very mixed record on? Iraq War. Qaddafi.

But as I said, please proceed. This line of argument isn't going to take you to a place you want to argue from, I assure you, but go right ahead.

[pnwmom]

29. That is my point. You never hesitate to criticize Hillary for not being specific enough.

But it's fine for Bernie to avoid speaking out on gun control issues, apparently.

[Aerows]

32. While I'm flattered

that you are suggesting that you follow me around on DU enough to track every statement I've ever made about Hillary, I believe that you might want to make sure that you are responding to the right person.

I've made no responses with regard to Hillary's specificity on anything. I'm pretty sure that no one has recently logged into my account and said "Hillary isn't specific enough on X issue" to my knowledge. Please offer an example of such a post so that I can secure my account more tightly.

[rhett o rick]

62. So you disagree with his current stand on gun control? nm

[AgingAmerican]

66. Copyright laws forced you to cherry pick the article

[Trajan]

8. +1,000,000 ....

[pnwmom]

11. No one is trying to link Sanders to the massacre. Gun control is an issue that all the candidates

need to address.

[Aerows]

14. I think everyone

hears your "concerns".

[rhett o rick]

63. I think it's terrible to use the disaster to try to get political points. nm

[Trajan]

6. Too bad it is a minor distinction

What Bernie stands for far outweighs this specific difference ... For most people at any rate ...

Furthermore, Bernie's opponents do not specifically spell out a policy that amounts to a sea change in gun policy ...

Not exactly a red herring, but close ...

[DanTex]

27. "Most people" prefer Hillary over Bernie to begin with.

I doubt this is due to gun control, you have a point there, although it might be a factor as to why he polls so poorly among Democrats.

[Trajan]

60. I think you will be surprised ...

Taking bets yet ?

[DanTex]

68. If you're serious, I'll take Hillary for $100.

Payable in bitcoin at whatever the exchange rate is when one of the two concedes, that way we both remain anonymous.

[seveneyes]

18. Not fucking likely

[Bonobo]

24. Inaccurate hit piece. nt

[ileus]

25. Is being somewhat progressive on the 2A supposed to be a bad thing?

[William769]

30. Kick & recommended.

[sheshe2]

36. 5th rec!

Now that is The Boston Globe, our left leaning news paper. Kudos!

[rhett o rick]

67. How sad that the disaster in South Carolina is being used to make political points.

Can't you wait before you take this low shot at Sen Sanders?

[sheshe2]

75. Well when you and Bernie start posting daily..

about the atrocities of a police force out of control murdering unarmed PoC, then yes yes I will take you seriously. Then and only then will I take you and your candidate at your word that you care, that you actually care.

Two pool parties. Two very young girls were brutalized. One was slammed to the ground and knelt on by a cop. The other, well here is a picture. She is 12 years old.

Video Emerges OF White Cop Grabbing Black 12-Year-Old By Her Neck, Slammed Against Squad Car



A video has emerged showing a black 12-year-old being aggressively slammed against a police car while she can be heard screaming.

A number of white police officers are seen aggressively responding to a disturbance at a local pool in Fairfield, Ohio, last week.

News.Mic reports:

During the video, one officer can be seen grabbing a 12-year-old girl by the neck and slamming her up against a police car as she screams. The police also used pepper spray against another teenager who can be heard saying, “You just maced me in my mouth.”

30 minutes after Krystal Dixon dropped off her kids, nieces and nephews at the pool, the family was being rushed to the hospital after a violent altercation with local police.



http://freakoutnation.com/2015/06/video-emerges-of-white-cop-grabbing-black-12-year-old-by-her-neck-slammed-against-squad-car/

Then...

9 people were shot to death. In a church. While praying. I did not see your concerns for any of the above.

Hmmm? Who is really using it for political gain?

[TM99]

85. Has Hillary or O'Malley posted

daily on this subject?

Why hold Sanders and his supporters to a different standard especially when we agree that Black Lives Matter!

[sheshe2]

102. I am so very glad that you agree that black lives matter.

It is such a critical issue now. It is out of control. I do not want to see this become a genocide. This hurts my soul.

I will welcome your posts on this and you will be a welcome addition to all that is posted about this issue.

They are dying right now. It is incredibly painful to watch. The police are getting a pass on every damn shooting. They left a child, Michael in the street for four hours. They did not give a shit about him. His poor body was left uncovered in the heat. Four hours.

I thank the Bernie supporters for their compassion, because Black Lives Matter.

I hope to see you in the African American Group as well. We need to stand together. We need to make this right.

[rhett o rick]

109. What bazaar logic. Why do you choose this time to criticize Sen Sanders that he isn't quite

as pro-gun control as you would like. Seems you are using the South Carolina terrorist killings to disparge Sen Sanders. You don't deny that you are doing this but justify it by saying the Sen Sanders and I don't post enough about the racist problem in our nation.

You are not helping by tearing people down because YOU don't think they are as determine as yourself about a specific issue.

I think the timing of this OP was inappropriate.

[GGJohn]

33. ...

[Thinkingabout]

35. This is an area of concern, I also hail from a hunting state, own a gun

But realize not everyone is capable of owning or possessing a gun, like not everyone is capable of driving an eighteen wheeler.

[sheshe2]

37. KnR

Boston Globe!

[Purveyor]

38. What a 'crock of shit', indeed! eom

[Autumn]

49. This is all they have on Bernie?

He's right in line with me. On everything, including his IWR vote.

[arcane1]

50. Yes. Yes it is. And it was dealt with already a month ago.

It was conveniently resurrected yesterday after the horrors in South Carolina, in hopes of scoring some guilt-by-association points.

[Autumn]

51. Yep, they got nothing else,

[corkhead]

107. Apparently the have a new game plan since the 50Shadesgate (AKA Pengazi) was an epic fail at a smear

[hrmjustin]

59. I strong support gun control and I strongly support Hillary Clinton

[rhett o rick]

64. And you strongly support Goldman-Sachs. nm

[rhett o rick]

61. What a crappy piece of journalism. The Swiftboating has begun. The billionaires won't let up

until they get Clinton in the WH.

I am not surprised that this is all the anti-progressives have.

[madfloridian]

69. Check out the Democratic link on the left of this page.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/gun-legislation-where-lawmakers-stand/

It gives ratings of Democratics in 2013.

People are so determined to make Bernie extremist on gun control, that all good qualities are forgotten.

[Aerows]

95. He is starting to scare

the corporate controlled wing of the party.

She lost in 2008 because of this same sort of hubris, and I don't think 2016 is going to be any kinder. She really should bow out and let true Democrats run.

[elleng]

76. An angry O'Malley calls for a assault weapons ban. (NYT)

Mr. O'Malley is the only candidate so far to call for reinstating an assault weapons ban, a politically charged
topic.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/06/19/an-angry-omalley-calls-for-an-assault-weapons-ban/?_r=0

[Aerows]

94. He said it very well, elleng

He is a strong advocate for intelligent gun laws, and has put his pen where his mouth is.

[KelleyKramer]

78. Wow, Bernie has come a long way...

First they ignored him

Then they said he was a 'fringe' candidate and 'un-electable'

Now he is getting full on hit pieces.

Wow, that was fast

[Ed Suspicious]

93. Very.

[Comrade Grumpy]

82. This place is starting to smell bad.

[merrily]

101. Thank goodness so many DUers scolded us out of being "a single issue voter."

Scolded us that we were never going to agree with any politician on every single point.

Not that I ever was a single issue voter or ever expected to agree with any politician on every single issues, but a bunch of you seemed to think otherwise.

In any case, if I ever was like that, y'all did a great job of curing me. Thanks and hallelujah.

[cloudythescribbler]

105. in the primaries' heat, Hillary's camp WILL make hay about Sanders being a D- not an F to the NRA

but it is NOT what most Democratic Primary voters are interested in. Sanders is running strong against plutocracy and for the middle class, and hopefully will be stronger on climate especially now. These are big voter issues and yes, there'll be a lot of "protest" votes for him

[djean111]

106. Most outstanding POS sentence - and a clue as to what is going to follow -

Senator Bernie Sanders has built his insurgent presidential campaign by trying to outshine Hillary Clinton on populist economic issues.

Bwahahahaha! Telegraph intent much? "Trying to outshine Hillary Clinton on populist economics issues?" - Hillary is adopting rhetoric about Bernie's and Warren's issues as fast and as non-actually-committedly as her advisers can read the polls.

And, as Merrily said upthread, the jeers about being one-issue voters have been absorbed and taken to heart.
I am more afraid of someone who enthusiastically votes to send Americans overseas. With guns and bombs and intent to kill. Do I think Hillary's position on that has evolved? No I do not.

So - Bernie it is. The original "populist on economic issues".