OBAMA: LOSE IT

[sheshe2]

Obama Believes South Carolina Capitol's Confederate Flag Belongs In A Museum

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/obama-confederate-flag_n_7624034.html

The White House said Friday that President Barack Obama thinks the Confederate flag that currently flies outside the South Carolina statehouse belongs in a museum, according to Reuters.

Debate over the flag was reignited after nine people were shot and killed in a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, on Wednesday.

The flag, which flies next to the statehouse at the Confederate Soldier's Monument, is not only protected by law, but also protected by a padlock that keeps it in place. The flag is not on a pulley system, so it can't be lowered to half-staff.

On Friday, NAACP President Cornell Brooks called for the flag to come down. Rep. Mark Sanford (R-S.C.) disagreed, saying removing the flag “should not be the immediate solution."

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley (R) said she thinks "the state will start talking about that again" but declined to say if she thought it should come down. She's previously said she doesn't think the flag needs to be removed, but noted it's a "sensitive issue."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/obama-confederate-flag_n_7624034.html

Haley and Sanford can EF themselves. Take down the racist hate. It is a symbol of something ugly.

[ladjf]

1. It belongs in a trash can. Haley's lack of integrity is obvious.

[yuiyoshida]

18. Yes...

after its been reduced to ashes.

[Quayblue]

21. +1

[flamingdem]

2. K and R sheshe!

They had better be quick about getting rid of that thing.

[LiberalElite]

3. SC: you needed to lose it a long time ago -

Yo! You lost the war. Get over it!!!

[snappyturtle]

4. I think the President should be careful of what he wishes for.

If removing the flag would stop the shootings then it would be worth pursuing but that isn't going to happen. In fact I think removing it would start a furor we can only imagine. imho

[calimary]

8. No. It needs to come DOWN.

I think too many of us are WAY past that. That kind of justification or rationalization to reinforce not doing anything - that I've heard from SO many different voices in the past couple of days - will not get the job done.

We need a BIG change here. The people who claim it's their "heritage" need to be asked why they're proud of it, and why it's something to be proud of. We don't see legions of in-yer-face Germans parading the Nazi symbols around in public! Hell, they're rightfully ashamed of it. Still. To this late date. I think the "stars 'n' bars" is as offensive to the African American community and to others in this country who are against racism as the swastika is to the Jewish community.

If people in the South want to see that "Dixie Swastika" so badly, let them fund the building of a Museum of Intolerance - and install all the john c. calhoun statues and hate rags and other crap inside there. One per state capitol in the Old South - all the states that seceded from the Union and formed the Confederacy.

[sheshe2]

23. Kick and rec your post.

Thank you, yes it starts here and it needs to come down.

See what I said above, calimary. I don't have it in me to post more. I am so very upset by this. Every damn day we hear about more senseless hate filled death.

[sheshe2]

17. The President is always measured in his words.

That damn flag should have come down after the war ended.

You think...

"In fact I think removing it would start a furor we can only imagine. imho"

You don't think we have that already? Cops on a daily basis shooting unarmed black children and literally getting away with murder. Every 28 minutes a black person is shot dead. They strangled a black to death for selling cigarettes.

Yet the murderer of 9 people gets an escort and helping hands along with a bullet proof vest while in custody. While black people die. Want to talk about the Bundy ranch?

[snappyturtle]

57. I don't even know where to start. What do you not understand

about "imho"? I'm not an idiot. I know racial relations are bad. You needn't rehash the news. Putting words into my mouth isn't appreciated either. I do think, and simply said such, that it could get worse.

The police did the right thing putting a bullet proof vest on Roof. It wouldn't help matters if he were shot.

[ecstatic]

66. "It wouldn't help matters if he were shot."

How so? it's sickening to see how Roof, the escaped prisoner accomplices, Bundy ranchers, biker gangs, etc. get special treatment while 14 year old naked/unarmed girls get body slammed and threatened.

[ucrdem]

5. Barack Obama speaks for me.

K'n'R

[sheshe2]

26. Me too! nt

[calimary]

6. I was just watching Chris Hayes on MSNBC and he was interviewing a black state legislator.

That legislator's name, I think, was Todd Rutherford (D), who said he'd been contacted by fellow state rep Doug Brannon (r) from Spartanburg. The GOP colleague told him he was planning to introduce a bill to take the flag down.

Chris Hayes actually got him on the phone. Brannon is talking about why he's doing it - that he "lost a friend on Wednesday night" in the Rev. Clementa Pinckney who was also a State Senator. Brannon said "I'm not a politician tonight."

Says he'll profile that bill in December, before they go back into the next session, next January.

Let's follow this. See if it's gonna happen.

I'd rather we didn't have to wait til December or January. That fucking hate rag needs to come DOWN. NOW.

I've heard a very excellent new name for it somewhere here, and I think it should be used openly, so people can make the connection: The Dixie Swastika.

[sheshe2]

27. The Dixie Swastika

Bingo!

I don't want to wait either, calimary, yet I am thrilled an R wants to do this. It is time to let go of the hate.

We white people built this, we are the ones that need to correct it.

[still_one]

7. It is the very symbol of what racism is. Would they feel the same way if Germany decided to fly

The nazi flag

Roberts must be the most ignorant ass there is to say that all the ills of the civil rights movement have been corrected, which is why the voting act is not necessary

[calimary]

12. Unfortunately roberts wasn't alone. It still leaves me bewildered that they could rule that way.

[still_one]

15. Bewildered is being too kind

[ladjf]

47. The Confederate flag symbolizes many Southerners feelings that

their State Rights supersede Federal Authority. That was at the heart of the secessions in 1861. The South lost the war but many if not most Southerners refused to accept the reality of it, hence the old slogan "The South's gonna rise again".

[still_one]

48. Sorry but they can rationalize anything. States rights to

to discriminate, and it wasn't that long ago when those states had had no problem telling blacks where they could eat, ride buses, use public restrooms, etc. lt was legalized apartid(sic), and they didn't want to be told by the Feds that they couldn't discriminate

Human rights and civil rights are not negotiable as states rights, and I would bet most who push that flag or wear it on their pickups have a problem with "blacks"

It isn't states rights, that is their rationalization to appear that it has nothing to do with race.

[ladjf]

58. Don't think we are quite on the same page.

I'm not a great writer so I'm often misunderstood when I post.

I believe that their main gripe is that the Fed Gvt is not allowing them to conduct their lives as they would like to,

Among those freedoms that they feel they don't have is own and carry firearms anywhere they are and to shoot people if they feel threatened. (That is more of an ego power play than self defense.

Other freedoms: They feel that it's OK to own slaves because black people are inferior and slavery is their proper place.

They want to practice whatever type of religious beliefs their local pastor "cooks" up for the congregation. They feel that they are
followers of the only "true" religion. All others are wrong and won't get you into heaven.

They feel that their church should take over the federal Government so that everyone could be forced to follow the "real" religion.

They want to teach their children to believe the same unfounded explanation for the creation of the Universe, the solar system, the Earth and it's true properties with total disregard of academic scientific evidence.

They feel that they have a right to tell you how to live your life and raise children.

The list of their assumed "rights" goes on and on. It shows a strong streak of arrogance, ignorance, insensitivity, meanness and brutality.

So, bearing this items that most of them feel is their "rights" is at the heart of their like of respect for law and order that is currently in place. They are Dominionists .

The racist element is just one of their main issues with our society.

For that reason, I say that they are "States Righters" first, with racism as a subset of their complaints about society as it now exists.

[still_one]

60. We are on the same page

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

52. The State rights thing is a load of bullshit

The south was pissed that many in the north did not want to return their runaway slaves back to the south.

[ladjf]

64. I think it goes a bit deeper than that. But, the bottom line is

as John Kennedy said in his TV speech about the Ole Miss riots. "You can't just pick and choose which laws you are willing to obey".
(paraphrase from my memory of his Ole Miss speech.)

[handmade34]

9. I cannot believe that

there isn't an act, a motion, something within the state laws/legislature that would force the flag down TODAY... the fact that the confederate flag is still flying over or at a state/government building is a national shame and reprehensible

[napkinz]

10. tear it down!

[calimary]

14. Maybe we should start channelling reagan.

"Mr. Gorbachev, Tear Down... This Wall!" Anybody remember that monumental soundbite?

"Madam Governor, Tear Down... This Flag!"

And don't stop with nikki haley either. EVERY state senator and assemblyman in South Carolina needs to be told that. Because as I understand it, it's the state legislature that would have to change this.

[Hekate]

22. What I've been saying for 2 days here

When I finally made it an OP this afternoon it didn't fly well so to speak.

Prior to that MinMan wrote an impassioned essay (or two or three) on the subject, and he got all kinds of pushback from DUers who said it couldn't be done either legally or physically, one even going so far as to say he was inciting mob violence.

It's way past time to take down the flag of treason from public buildings and spaces. Assholes can fly it in their front yards or from their trucks if they want to.

[sheshe2]

28. Sorry I missed it, I was at work.

We certainly have all types here at DU, Hekate.

[calimary]

37. Guess I missed most of that, Hekate.

I made my first comment about this as reaction began to stream in from nikki haley's teary appearance before the cameras and mics the other night. I just impulsively fired off words to the effect of "Well then why don't you take that damn flag down?"

Well, why not? Doesn't it seem kinda obvious? I'm just one person but that's immediately how it strikes me. Catholic, y'know. We're into "outward signs" and stuff. Born in Missouri, y'know. The Show Me State. You want to show how sorry you are that this happened, and how badly you want your state and this city to heal? Then take that damn flag down! It just fans in the face ALL the wrong stuff, ALL the wrong messaging, ALL the wrong reminders.

STOP GLORIFYING THE DAMN CIVIL WAR!!!!!!

Enough with the obsession with the Civil War. It's OVER. It ended more than a century-and-a-half ago! It's LONG OVER. And I'm afraid YOU LOST. You need to GET OVER IT. Quit rubbing it in our faces! Quit parading it all over everywhere. YOU LOST. GET OVER IT.

Besides, you don't have anything to rub in our faces. YOU LOST.

[napkinz]

34. yep, I started a thread: To Borrow From Ronald Reagan, "Tear Down This Flag!"

see http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026866951

[gratuitous]

11. He's right, but it's up to the Republicans

The president is absolutely right, but it's up to South Carolina's citizens and their elected representatives to do this. And when we talk about the elected officials in South Carolina, that means Republicans. If the Republicans don't take the lead on this, it will be a political football for generations to come. Where are the Republicans - party of Lincoln, as they like to say - who are going to lead on this? Will Gov. Haley step up or duck down?

[UTUSN]

13. *Burn* it -- FREE SPEECH!1 n/t

[Man from Pickens]

16. If we're going to have an honest conversation about flags and the damage done in their names

Then the U.S. flag easily has a hundred times more to account for than the Confederate flag.

How many people were unjustly murdered under the banner of the US flag today? I don't know the answer, but I am 99.9999% certain that the number is not zero. And the number tomorrow will not be zero either. And on some days that number is in 4 and 5 figures, and some years it is in 7 figures.

Ever notice that when you see a list of the most horrible regimes in history and how many people they killed, the list always stops just before we get to the 4 million we killed in Vietnam? And that was just ONE war.

[Hekate]

25. Really?Over 600,000 soldiers died in the US Civil War. We're talking violence HERE. Stop deflecting

....from THAT issue.

[Man from Pickens]

30. Who is deflecting?

The focus on the Confederate flag is the deflection. This kid is not a Confederate. He is an Afrikaner whose family didn't want to be ruled by black people in South Africa. Blaming Americans for what a South African kid did is wrong.

But since you want to discuss flags, then lets discuss flags. Soldiers dying in wars is not a war crime. What we did in Vietnam is. What we did in Serbia is. What we did in Iraq is. A lot of what we do in Afghanistan is. What we did in Libya is. And so on and so forth - we get into so many of these things under the United States flag, not the Confederate flag, that you need to be a minor historian just to keep track of them all.

There simply is no comparison. If you're so horrified by the Confederate flag, then you should be many times more horrified by the US flag, unless you are a raging hypocrite, or don't think that Arabs and Vietnamese lives count for anything. The body count is not in the hundreds of thousands, it is in the millions, and if we had a really accurate count would be very likely to exceed 10 million. The wars themselves don't even account for the whole total - it was not that long ago we starved a half-million Iraqi children in the name of "containing" Saddam Hussein, and our Secretary of State at the time addressed and acknowledged those half-million deaths saying it was absolutely worth it.

In the era since the Communist Revolution in China, the US has been the #1 killer worldwide and nobody else even comes close.

Sorry to be the one to rip off the rose-colored view you have of the behavior of our country over the past five decades. We have behaved extremely poorly and have a staggering body count to show for it.

[Hekate]

39. Start your own thread on the foreign policy stupidity of the country. This is about internal policy.

You know how they say charity begins at home? So do reparations.

[NuclearDem]

38. Jesus Christ on a crutch.

[Hekate]

41. We've got several people really devoted to this line of argument....

.....unless it's just one person who seems to be everywhere.

[DanTex]

40. The confederate flag stands for nothing but slavery.

That's the entire reason that the confederacy existed. If not for the Southern states' desire to preserve slavery, there would have been no confederacy and no civil war. It is the American version of the swastika.

[Man from Pickens]

43. Only to Americans

To the rest of the world - not to mention the countless people in the US terrorized by cops bearing the symbol - this is the American version of the swastika:



I would think that here of all places I would find people enlightened enough about the rest of the planet to know this. Outside of the US this statement would not even be slightly controversial.

[NuclearDem]

45. Yeah, we get it, you're smarter than the rest of us.

Why don't you just leave us all to our pathetic ignorance of a topic we weren't even discussing until you showed up?

[Man from Pickens]

59. Just giving you other sides to the story

You know those feelings of revulsion and loathing you have when you see a Confederate flag, and that you have towards the (very few) people who still adhere to that creed?

Multiply that by 100 and you'll have a taste about how the rest of the world feels about you and me because we're Americans.

[geek tragedy]

50. You remind me of Seventhson. nt

[DanTex]

61. The people who live in South Carolina are Americans.

[Man from Pickens]

63. I should have been more specific

Didn't want to be too wordy, but I can be more precise for you.

"Only to Americans who have swallowed hook, line, and sinker the extremely-sanitized version of American history taught in schools, in which slavery in the US didn't exist before AND after the Confederacy."

I used to believe that version. Then I got other sides to the story.

[YoungDemCA]

49. +1

This is a way of saying the Confederacy is not so bad, because America (which in this context, usually means the Unionist North) was "just as bad, if not worse - or were at least, hypocrites.

Just because a lot of bad shit has been done in the name of America, doesn't mean that the Confederacy isn't what its leaders EXPLICITLY SAID IT WAS: a defiant, reactionary, treasonous slave-owning society that wished to preserve the precious right of the white man to own other human beings.

[SwankyXomb]

53. It also stands for racism, treason, murder and terrorism

Those who fly it and support it don't deserve to be called Americans.

[JI7]

68. you are the purest and most liberalest one of all

[Man from Pickens]

69. Why thank you!

It's an honor to be so recognized.

Now, since my unimpeachable purity makes me your leader, why don't you all follow me in focusing on stopping evils that are going on in the here and now instead of trying to refight the Civil War?

[Quayblue]

19. that shit belongs in my bonfire eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. Seven years into his presidency.

[Drunken Irishman]

24. It's a symbol of hate - not heritage.

The National Flag of Nazi Germany has history - but if you're sporting it, you're not sporting it for the heritage, you're doing it for the hatred.

[sheshe2]

31. Agreed DI

Hate pure and simple to honor it.

Take it down!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

29. I agree with Obama.............and YOU!

These two sentences say it all: Take down the racist hate. It is a symbol of something ugly.

[SunSeeker]

32. It represents not just hate but the ENSLAVEMENT and murder of millions because of their race.

The South started the Civil War to protect the institution of slavery. Period. That flag was their battle flag for the war over slavery. I am so fucking sick of the white washing of what the Civil War was really about.

[Beartracks]

33. Sanford doesn't think it's a solution, cuz he doesn't really see a problem.

I'm just guessing.

===========================

[Jamastiene]

35. It belongs in museums and history books.

I agree with President Obama.

It does belong in a museum, not flying in such an "in your face"* manner. It is way larger than the state flag in SC and so "in your face." You just about need binoculars to see the state and US flags over the SC grounds, but that confederate flag is huge and front and center.

*by "in your face" in quotes, I am not quoting anyone, just pointing out that is comes off that way with the way they display that flag in SC. It irritates me, because it truly does come off that way.

[pansypoo53219]

36. the basement, NOT the state house or GOVERNMENT BUILDING.

[Metro135]

42. The Civil War is over. You lost

It was started when a group of Southern states seceded from the Union. After the war they were readmitted. If you want to fly that goddamn flag, a reminder of what essentially was an act of treason, as well as a "new nation" that was avidly pro-slavery, then secede from the Union again and adopt it as your flag.

I won't miss you.

[gordianot]

44. They lost and need to remain losers.

Any resurgence of that tragic lost cause anywhere in the Union perpetuates a war settled long ago. There are no options out.

[SwankyXomb]

56. I think part of the problem is we call it the Civil War

THEY call it the War of Northern Aggression, conveniently ignoring the fact that they started it. We should start calling it something more apt, like the War of Southern Treason.

[Cha]

46. It's not the first time Pres Obama has said the confederate flag belongs in a museum, she..

http://theobamadiary.com/2015/06/19/president-speaks-to-the-u-s-conference-of-mayors/

[sheshe2]

51. Good for President Obama.

[Cha]

65. Kick for President Obama~

[treestar]

54. I agree with the President

and can not understand why modern people insist on the legitimacy of that flag. It should be long gone and consigned to the dustbin of history.

[merrily]

55. It belongs in Hell.

[roamer65]

62. If the museum is government funded in any way...NO.

The only museums that should be allowed to display it are privately funded ones.

If there are any in the Smithsonian, for example, they should be immediately removed.

[Juicy_Bellows]

67. I said in another thread -

That they need to take it down and on the 4th of July Obama should set it ablaze and cook a celebratory hotdog with the fire - dress that dog up proper with mustard, onions and relish and take a big ass bite while God Bless America plays over the loudspeaker.

The flag and symbol has got to go.