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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDoug Brannon SC Representative (R) introducing bill to take down confederate flag
Out of respect for his friend who died.
He sounded really broken up and said what a fantastic human being Clementa Pinckney was.
It's a totally appropriate thing to do, and I hope SC shows its better self by recognizing it.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)so that "heritage" argument is BS.
Take it down
so that "heritage" argument is BS.
That's a false comparison, Germany doesn't have the equivelant of the 1A like we do.
The confederate flag is a symbol of hate and racism, but it's also protected by the 1A as freedom of speech and expression.
dballance
(5,756 posts)One can make the argument the Confederate Battle flag is a form of hate speech.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)and the confederate flag is part of that protection.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)..is like yelling fire in a theater. Fuck that pos flag of racists. Get rid of it, now.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It is worse than yelling fire. It is a symbol of death and destruction and any who fly it should be put in jail from this day forward.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Post a link where it was reclassified as a hate crime? Or reclassified and equivalent to yelling fire in a theater.
BTW, it's legal to yell fire in a theater if the person believes that there is evidence of a fire.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It will be outlawed.
We need to educate these dumb asses about what that flag stands for, and it stands for death and destruction, is anti-American, and is for slavery. Fuck any dumb ass who flies it. Teach them a lesson and let them talk to the judge.
Outlaw it and you can take it to court and let the SCOTUS decide.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)So it's still protected under the 1A?
Mr.Bill
(24,300 posts)doesn't mean they have to or should.
The 1st amendment gives me the right to fly a Nazi flag on my house, but I choose not to.
forest444
(5,902 posts)And keep in mind that what you see flying over so many flagpoles in the Deep South, isn't just any flag - it's the Confederate BATTLE flag.
Having lived in Mississippi for several years not that long ago ('90s), I can tell you positively that to the hard-core Dixie right wing the battle flag is flown purposefully and as a message. That message, of course, being that "we are still at war."
That's a phrase you might hear often down there in backyard barbecues, once certain people get a few drinks in them (and far from being limited to "rednecks," this can include influential people with large homes on magnolia-lined streets).
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Can you do that? Has the DoJ EVER filed charges against anyone flying that flag?
If not, then do you agree that the flag is protected under the 1A?
forest444
(5,902 posts)It may be legal; but it really is comparable to flying an Al-Qaida banner. And as Wednesday's tragedy reminds us, just as much a threat if not more.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)isn't the battle flag don't you?
It's the CSA Naval Jack Flag, which was never an official flag of the CSA.
forest444
(5,902 posts)The Stars and Bars was used not only as the battle flag of the CSA armies of Virginia and Tennessee and (as you mentioned) the CSA Navy, it was incorporated integrally into the "national flag" of the CSA itself.
In all cases representing not only the secessionist state, but its armed forces as well. In other words, both the civilian and military fronts of the greatest treason this country ever suffered (with the possible exception of the Bush administration).
It's worth reiterating here that its display is, in many quarters in the Deep South, meant as a deliberate celebration of said crimes against the United States - and many will tell you so to your face, especially if you doubt their sincerity in that regard.
Dylann Roof certainly thought of it that way.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but until it's labeled as a hate crime to fly one, a move I would vehemently oppose, it's still protected under the 1A.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)forest444
(5,902 posts)I'll defer to the Rude Pundit for the rest of it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026866485
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Flying it makes one a vile, racist piece of shit.
However, you brought up treason in the context of the First Amendment and a legal context, and no matter how you parse it, flying the Dixie swastika does not meet the Constitutional definition of treason, which is the one that matters legally.
forest444
(5,902 posts)And trust me: even if the post-Civil War era ban on the display of Confederate insignia had never been allowed to lapse, these Deep South good ole boy judges and governors would make sure that doing so was rarely, if ever, punished (on the contrary; don't be too shocked if this little monster's family became rich overnight as their "reward" .
I lived in Mississippi for a number of years, and can tell you that some folks down there have a funny way of deciding which federal laws do - or do not - apply. Moreover, Obama's election to the presidency made them all the more motivated to act as a law unto themselves.
They still love all that Federal money though: in most Deep South states Uncle Sam covers 40% or more of their state budgets.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I think this symbol has come to that point.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but until it's declared a hate crime to fly one, it's still protected under the 1A.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)It scares the hell out of me when progressives want to ban something that's offensive, what happens when the R's take the WH and decide this flag is offensive?
This banning shit could fast get out of hand.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)That flag makes me think of so many GOOD things that have happened lately.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)And if the R's ever get back the presidency, you can bet they would try to outlaw anything associated with gay rights, including that symbol.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I try to think about that whenever I'm considering my position. Many thanks to my mom.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Let the individual idiots display one. Let the rest of us recognize them.
Does anybody else remember a standup routine about everyone being issued suction-cup darts with "idiot" flags - any car bearing more than five would be pulled over and given a ticket? (I've tried to Google it with no luck.)
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I would rather know who the hateful racists are and be able to engage them, than not knowing.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)But I must say, as a member of A&A, that I wish the catcher had given more credit to herself.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)although I think she should be given some sort of a reward for her intuition and bravery.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I am grateful to her nevertheless, and for all I know we may mean the same thing (see Heinlein), but nevertheless, as an atheist I was somewhat dismayed. But it is the Bible belt. I live here. I make allowances.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,838 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)because I know very little about any stand-up comics, so I assume you know more than I do and are right.
I just happened to see it decades ago and never forgot it, because I'd so like to see it put into practice!
bigmonkey
(1,798 posts)The watermelon and sledgehammer guy. Kind of a RW jerk, on the whole, but the suction-cup-dart idea was funny.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That was part of the majority opinion for Schenck v United States, which was overturned by Brandenburg and replaced by imminent lawless action.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I'm not a legal scholar, but I like being educated in bits here and there.
hardluck
(639 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)rurallib
(62,416 posts)of hate, of racism, of treason (yes treason) is beyond the pale.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)47of74
(18,470 posts)We might not be able to stop every dumb fuck out there from flying that sheet of shit, but we can sure as hell mandate our Government doesn't fly it or even dare endorse the goddamn thing.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)daleanime
(17,796 posts)then corporations are.
Explanation please.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)I'm sure that there's some people in bed with the government, but that's produced no offspring yet.
Or do you believe, like Mitt, that corporations(and governments) are people too, my friend.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)And that a state flies it atop its capitol, is shameful.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)on the Capital grounds.
That's how it's gotten around the usual rules. It's a historic "artifact" (cough) on a war memorial.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)with a "black box" warning.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)on government property and an individual having it. An individual has the 1A right, as obnoxious as it is to fly that flag, but the US government should crack down on that anti-American flag on government property. It is an anti-American flag. It represents another country that fought against America. It should be seen as a terrorist threat when displayed on government property like that. There is a place for it, in museums and history books, not on government property.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)hence it's up to the SC govt to take it down, and down it should come.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)should be banned
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)It should be put on display in a museum to be a reminder of a sad part of our history.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)And in a museum you wouldn't have to.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)For Freddie
(79 posts)It is like having a graphic child rape flag. Or wife beating flag.
It represents terrible abuse and degradation of human life.
What needs to happen to it is 5 gallons of napalm and a sniper
to ignite it, or maybe a Mark 2 pineapple fragmentation
grenade. At the least a 357 magnum loaded with blanks duck taped to a flare. All of these have been used festively on Burn Notice.
Sam Axe is needed here. Where is a shoulder held missile when we need one? This is therapeutic fantasy.
I don't understand why someone at night doesn't do a Yippee action as in the 60's. It probably has better security than the dear human beings that were sacrificed for it.
As to the First Amendment, as my old law prof once said: "The 1st Amendment and Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is."
And Bush fixed that one too. We are locked in the Bush Cheney night mare and only beginning to head toward any real change.
`
For Freddie
(79 posts)It is like having a graphic child rape flag. Or wife beating flag.
It represents terrible abuse and degradation of human life.
What needs to happen to it is 5 gallons of napalm and a sniper
to ignite it, or maybe a Mark 2 pineapple fragmentation
grenade. At the least a 357 magnum loaded with blanks duck taped to a flare. All of these have been used festively on Burn Notice.
Sam Axe is needed here. Where is a shoulder held missile when we need one? This is thereputic fantasy.
I don't understand why someone at night doesn't do a Yippee action as in the 60's. It probably has better security than the dear human beings that were sacrificed for it.
As to the First Amendment, as my old law prof once said: "The 1st Amendment and Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is."
And Bush fixed that one too. We are locked in the Bush Cheney night mare and only beginning to head toward any real change.
`
DamnYankeeInHouston
(1,365 posts)Perfectly stated. Thank you. It is a traitorous flag.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)After all, it is a symbol of treason against same. But our history is complicated.....
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)You know who defends that flag? Racists, traitors, murderers and terrorists.
Which one of those are you?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
RandySF
(58,876 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Now how many death threats will he get...
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I hope he doesn't get crushed by the Teabagger wrath he is about to face.
valerief
(53,235 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)he's doing the right thing because he lost a close friend, at least try to acknowledge it's a good thing.
7962
(11,841 posts)In an Op yesterday Gov Haley was called everything in the book after her speech. But what would these same folks be saying had she kept silent after this attack? Then she'd be blasted for not caring!
damn if you do, damn if you don't.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)How many "no one could have predicted" memes from Republicans after the bodies pile up can one take?
"No one could have predicted":
- 9/11 after "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S." memo.
- No WMD's in Iraq
- Iraq War lasting more than a few weeks.
- Iraq War not paying for itself.
- U.S. soldiers greeted as liberators.
- Tax cuts for the wealthy not creating jobs.
- Racist flags flown on government property giving aid and comfort to domestic terrorists.
The idea that a "close friend" has to be brutally murdered before you can recognize his humanity is pathetic. Sorry. I don't have a lot of sympathy today for Republicans. It got all used up on murdered Black folks living under the flag of traitors.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Thanks for setting me straight.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Glad I could educate you.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Robert Byrd was in the KKK? Failing rust belt cities have had Democratic mayors? White people co-founded the NAACP?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Hmmm, why would that be? You seem to know those talking points a little to well.
the man is trying to do the right thing
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)There are Republicans that hold lower offices that aren't as bad.
valerief
(53,235 posts)you really, really hate American jobs.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Actually, this is already a change. Perhaps others will follow.
ecstatic
(32,705 posts)affects them. I'm glad this man finally supports taking the flag down, but he should have been against it years ago.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)that a lot of them are a bit lacking in the empathy department.
blm
(113,063 posts)I think some of the more moderate Republicans have to use this time to flex whatever muscle they can on this issue. It won't last long when primary voting begins.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)do it.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)It was an unconditional surrender.
Why the federal government has allowed the Southern state governments to continue flying the rebel battle flag is beyond me.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)This is state property, not Fed. property, it's up to the state legislature to remove it.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)A state government flying the flag of the treasonous army who faught to enforce slavery is a hate crime against African Americans. I believe it amounts to harrassment of African Americans and violates the 14th Amendment equal protection clause--which can be enforced against the states by USDOJ.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)again, THIS IS STATE PROPERTY, NOT FED PROPERTY, IT'S UP TO THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO REMOVE IT!!!!
Clear enough?
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)Just because the flag is state property does not mean the state can do whatever it wants with it. It must act in compliance with the US Constitution and anti-discrimination laws.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)then why hasn't the US Govt stepped in and remove it?
Sorry, but you're 100% wrong.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)Seems they have their hands full just suing over the racist voter suppression laws.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Think that's just as a viable explanation as yours?
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)The 14th Amendment made sure of that.
Whatever the fed's reason for not going after this injustice does not make it any less an injustice.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but the fact remains that the feds aren't going to go after SC because they recognize that this is a state's rights issue.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)You do not know why the feds have not acted. Nor do you know for a fact that they never will.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)my opinion makes much more sense.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)And yours is not better than mine.
Sad that you are so tenacious about defending South Carolina flying the Confederate battle flag.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I was wondering when you would accuse me of defending SC flying the CSA flag.
You took longer than I figured you would.
I'm not defending them flying the flag, that's a flat out lie by you, I'm telling you that the feds have zero jurisdiction in this, this is a state's rights issue, which the Feds recognize.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)You claim the feds have no jurisdiction, while ignoring the 14th Am. You're making up nonsensical arguments to support SC. You're defending them flying the flag. Arguing for unfettered "state's rights" is a loud dog whistle and is absolutely wrong. The feds go after states all the time for racist actions, particularly in regard to voting.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I never said the state should fly that flag, I said that it's a protected form of free speech under the 1A, and apparently the Feds think so also as witnessed by the lack of any intervention.
They why haven't they? Pres. Obama could have said yesterday that he was directing the DoJ to intervene and remove that flag, but he didn't, because Pres. Obama, being the smart man that he is, knows this is a state's rights issue and hopes they'll do the right thing by removing it.
And quit lying about me defending them flying the flag, I have done no such thing, and I'm not arguing for unfettered state's rights.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)You continue to disregard the constraints on states by the 14th Am and the power it gives to the feds to stop discriminatory state conduct. You fail to see the injustice of it (post 108: "What injustice?" (Sic)). All while screaming in angry all caps (post 41)
Yeah, you're defending SC. And with a lot of anger. Methinks thou dost protest too much.
7962
(11,841 posts)It was also never one of the official flags of the Confederacy. But with the klan, etc, taking it as their own everyone thinks its the "flag of the confederate states".
The "heritage" argument might have carried some weight if all those who think it "honors their ancestors" had put up a fuss when the racist groups started using it. But too late for that now.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)That ought to make a few heads do this,
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)And eventually found its way onto the national flag of the Confederacy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
It is a potent symbol of the Confederacy, and why the Sons of Confederate Veterans fought so hard (fortunately unsuccessfully) to get it plastered on Texas license plates. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/CSA4LIFE/388427/
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)Government speech is very much restricted, particularly by the 14th Am.'s equal protection clause.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)If the feds had declared that flying the confederate flag was a hate crime, then, yeah, not prosecuting it would be an injustice, but being as it's protected under the 1A, trying to prosecute it as a hate crime would be an injustice.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)SC, by flying that flag, is making an in your face statement to African Americans that SC is on the side of slavery. It is the battle flag of a Confederacy that treated African Americans as livestock. A state flying that flag amounts to racial harassment and disparate treatment based on race, a violation of the 14th Am equal protection clause. A government is required by the 14th Am to treat all its citizens equally, not state that African Americans are human livestock, which is what that flag says.
And SC government is NOT protected by the 1st Am, as I and another poster in this thread explained to you (and you appeared to understand in responding to the other poster).
marble falls
(57,097 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I never saw that coming. A Republican, really? It takes some serious courage to suggest taking down the confederate flag in SC. Wow. I'm actually shocked, in a good way, though. Amazing. I hope he can talk the rest into it too.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)You know what would happen if some concerned citizens took a chainsaw to that flag pole on the Capitol grounds. The batshit crazy racists who run that open air lunatic asylum would go batshittier crazier, and install a new flag pole and post a 24-hour armed guard on it with orders to shoot to kill anyone who strayed within 10 feet of it.
The only people who have the power to take down that symbol of hatred are the people who put it up: South Carolina Republicans. Do they have the will to do it? Or are they such craven little men that they can't tell their racist base to go piss up a rope?
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)If a Democrat tried it, it would be the same as you said. If anyone but a Republican tried it, it would be the same as you said.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)Take down the statues of killers and the names of streets...unbelievable. They act like the war is still going on and they haven't gotten over losing the battle...so they continue to kill.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I live in an area where streets are named Plantation this and Plantation that. It's a miracle the inside of my car isn't covered in vomit.
Iwillnevergiveup
(9,298 posts)in a fetid swamp of hate and murder?
hatrack
(59,587 posts)Then it's time for action. But up until now, he couldn't be bothered.
Sorry for the insta-cyn, but I'm to the point that when someone says "I'm a Republican", my default response is "Here comes some bullshit."
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)at least a lot (maybe most) of them. I'm just grateful he was touched.
herding cats
(19,564 posts)Sometimes it takes a major blow to make a person see what's right, and understand why it was wrong before. I'm just glad he sees it and is willing to try to do the right thing.
ALBliberal
(2,342 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)KT2000
(20,581 posts)to get this done. I think he said it would be December before this can be done. I fear it will never pass in December/January.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I hope he gets plenty of support for the bill.
Cha
(297,270 posts)TheOther95Percent
(1,035 posts)The confederacy had three national flags. For a country that lasted four years, that is mighty impressive. The first one was discarded because it looked too much like the flag borne by the Grand Army of the Republic. The second flag resembles the one flown in South Carolina and the third one is so charming it incorporates the image of the second flag over a white banner. The white section is meant to symbolize in the words of William Thomson, a co-designer,
As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.
Yeah, just feel the history, culture and pride wrapped up in that banner.
No, my friends, I refer to that THING flying over SC as the sore losers banner or the traitors rag. I saw another one today on DU that I'm going to use, Dixie Swaztika.
An excellent overview on the Confederacy and how internal strife caused its downfall.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/12/966022/-The-Truth-About-the-Confederacy
valerief
(53,235 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)of getting into the business of banning symbols. History is replete with attempts to extinguish symbols that only fanned the flames of what they represented. Symbols die when people no longer believe in what they stand for and not before.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I want to be very, very careful here since I have no way of knowing if any of this was sanctioned by the "official organization", or just some extremist members selling their own stuff. This was at a major festival in Florida, attended by people from all over the country.
In addition to selling Confederate Flags, tshirts,bumper stickers, they had a number of shirts with pro gun messages, some of which were outright racial hatred. I will not quote them. My husband was browsing gun shirts.
Then I saw the paper targets. I literally froze when I saw the one with Obama's face on it. That even bothered my Republican husband. "You do not advocate using the President of the United States of America, whoever he is, for target practice". I had to pull him away because he wanted to say something to them, as a VETERAN who served to defend the USA, AND the President of it.
Again, as I stated in my opening lines, I do not know if this was sanctioned by that organization, but the FESTIVAL organizers should have shut them down for the merchandise they were selling.
This only proves that there still is a lot of hatred out there, including for our President.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Some nut jobs hate US, the majority, for electing a black president. They hate US for supporting an agenda of tolerance, acceptance and prosperity for the entire nation, not just the billionaire class. They work against their own self interests. They practice a zero sum game by embracing failed trickle down economic policies and wars without end.
"Again, as I stated in my opening lines, I do not know if this was sanctioned by that organization, but the FESTIVAL organizers should have shut them down for the merchandise they were selling.
This only proves that there still is a lot of hatred out there, including for our President."
avebury
(10,952 posts)Confederate flag and the KKK. Every time the Confederate flag is talked about, KKK should be included.
stage left
(2,962 posts)thanking him for taking this step. I tried to call him to thank him, but I couldn't get an answer. It takes courage to stand up against the majority and I understand that polls indicate that 70% of the people in SC don't want the Confederate flag taken down. I don't know if that has changed since the murders. They apparently changed Brannon's mind and his heart as well. Perhaps there will be a domino effect. I hope so.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)but it's a shame that so much paper has to be pushed just to take a stupid flag down.