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lostnfound

(16,179 posts)
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:39 PM Jun 2015

Doug Brannon SC Representative (R) introducing bill to take down confederate flag

Out of respect for his friend who died.

He sounded really broken up and said what a fantastic human being Clementa Pinckney was.

It's a totally appropriate thing to do, and I hope SC shows its better self by recognizing it.

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Doug Brannon SC Representative (R) introducing bill to take down confederate flag (Original Post) lostnfound Jun 2015 OP
Germans don't get to fly the Nazi flag as a way to honor their war dead NightWatcher Jun 2015 #1
... GGJohn Jun 2015 #6
Hate speech is not protected by the 1A dballance Jun 2015 #9
Hate speech is most certainly protected by the 1A, GGJohn Jun 2015 #10
That pos flag RobertEarl Jun 2015 #50
Regardless, it's still protected by the 1A. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #52
Not anynore RobertEarl Jun 2015 #56
Really? GGJohn Jun 2015 #59
Tell it to the judge RobertEarl Jun 2015 #66
So it hasn't been outlawed? GGJohn Jun 2015 #69
Just because the 1st ammendment gives the state the right to fly it, Mr.Bill Jun 2015 #133
Nor, John, is TREASON protected by the First Amendment. forest444 Jun 2015 #67
Ok, post the link where the confederate battle flag has been ruled as treason. GGJohn Jun 2015 #77
Display of the Confederate Battle flag isn't treason or a crime in itself, of course. forest444 Jun 2015 #86
You do realize that the flag flown over the memorial statute on the capitol grounds GGJohn Jun 2015 #88
Well, if you must split hairs forest444 Jun 2015 #95
I don't doubt your word, GGJohn Jun 2015 #97
What treason, exactly? NuclearDem Jun 2015 #122
The Civil War, for starters. forest444 Jun 2015 #127
I agree with TRP, but displaying the Dixie swastika is not legally an act of treason. NuclearDem Jun 2015 #129
You're right, unfortunately. forest444 Jun 2015 #131
Fire in a crowded theatre, exactly. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #63
Maybe it has, GGJohn Jun 2015 #65
Totally agree, and I think it should be. nt SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #68
Thank you!!!! GGJohn Jun 2015 #71
Oh, you made me smile! SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #75
+1000. GGJohn Jun 2015 #78
Sauce for the goose, you betcha. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #81
Thank whatever entity for moms. Salt of the earth. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #83
You know what, I've reconsidered my position. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #84
I agree. GGJohn Jun 2015 #85
That's the way the guy was caught. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #90
She was very brave and humble, I admire her for that, GGJohn Jun 2015 #92
She credited "God" SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #94
Believe it or not, I think that was a Gallagher bit. Gidney N Cloyd Jun 2015 #124
I believe it, SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #136
Gallagher bigmonkey Jun 2015 #138
Shouting fire in a crowded theater. NuclearDem Jun 2015 #121
Thanks for the info. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #135
Actually it is protected speech hardluck Jun 2015 #11
Yes, it certainly is. linuxman Jun 2015 #113
it may be "protected" but the state endorsing it by flying the symbol rurallib Jun 2015 #14
Hey, you're preaching to the choir. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #15
That was kind of my thinking. 47of74 Jun 2015 #29
Yep. nt SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #70
Government is no more an individual.... daleanime Jun 2015 #16
Huh? GGJohn Jun 2015 #21
How is that confusing? daleanime Jun 2015 #26
Ok, I get it now. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #27
that is true. the comparison is still accurate cali Jun 2015 #17
Iirc, it's not atop the Capital. It's on a Confederate Soldiers memorial riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #24
Let them put it in a museum, then, SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #73
Agreed. It needs to be de-emphasized and minimized nt riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #76
That doesn't mean it should fly at the South Carolina capitol. DanTex Jun 2015 #30
I never said otherwise. eom GGJohn Jun 2015 #42
There is a difference between having the confederate flag Jamastiene Jun 2015 #33
It's not US govt. property, it's SC govt property, GGJohn Jun 2015 #35
Put it in a box in a museum Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #43
No, it shouldn't. GGJohn Jun 2015 #44
I don't want to see it Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #46
I don't blame you a bit. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #93
Can't says I blame you. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #98
None of us want to see it For Freddie Jun 2015 #137
None of us want to see it For Freddie Jun 2015 #139
"It is an anti-American flag. It represents another country that fought against America." DamnYankeeInHouston Jun 2015 #62
Apparently the US govt doesn't see it that way. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #64
Unfortunately. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #87
You know who flies that flag? SwankyXomb Jun 2015 #125
The "heritage" argument is utter bullshit! Enthusiast Jun 2015 #117
But I thought Lindsey Graham said the flag 'works' for South Carolina. RandySF Jun 2015 #2
It's part of "who" he is! riderinthestorm Jun 2015 #12
Good on him. cui bono Jun 2015 #3
That was my first thought. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #18
Good to see a Republican doing the right thing Bjorn Against Jun 2015 #4
If he really cared, he wouldn't be a fuckin' Republican. nt valerief Jun 2015 #5
Give it a fucking rest, GGJohn Jun 2015 #8
Thats a tough job for a lot of folks here! 7962 Jun 2015 #22
Yep GGJohn Jun 2015 #25
Too little....too late. ZX86 Jun 2015 #45
You do know that alot of Democrats voted for the IWR also don't you? eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #51
No ZX86 Jun 2015 #53
You're welcome. GGJohn Jun 2015 #61
Do you have any other stunning revelations like... ZX86 Jun 2015 #79
Nope, but you seem to hit all the R talking points. GGJohn Jun 2015 #80
shame! Botany Jun 2015 #13
A lot of the pressure to be an asshole is coming down on them from a national level.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #19
Sorry, but this isn't 1954. To be a Republican todays means you hate women, you hate POC, and valerief Jun 2015 #120
Actually, on a local level all you have to do is be a parrot. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #132
Bwah! nt valerief Jun 2015 #141
True as far as it goes, but perhaps he will change. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #48
It's frustrating that repubs are incapable of empathizing ("getting it") until something personally ecstatic Jun 2015 #144
Yeah, I do think SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #145
I think the national party is going to pressure SCGOP. blm Jun 2015 #7
It just may take him to yuiyoshida Jun 2015 #20
It will take a 2/3s vote in each house to change the 'comprise' law that put it there. sinkingfeeling Jun 2015 #23
They have the nerve to call it a "compromise "? They lost the fucking Civil War. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #32
Because the Fed. Govt has no jurisidiction. GGJohn Jun 2015 #37
That is the Confederate battle flag, not a state flag. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #40
That may be the way you see it, but it's not the law, GGJohn Jun 2015 #41
The 14th Amendment is the law. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #47
Then tell me something here, if what you claim were true, GGJohn Jun 2015 #54
The feds pick their battles I guess. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #89
Or they recognize that this is a state's issue and they have no jurisdiction over it. GGJohn Jun 2015 #91
Discrimination is not a state's right. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #102
Never said it was, GGJohn Jun 2015 #104
That's your opinion. That is not a fact. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #107
It's just as much fact as your opinion, matter of fact, GGJohn Jun 2015 #109
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #110
LOLOL. GGJohn Jun 2015 #111
You contend the state should be able to fly that flag because it's "state property." SunSeeker Jun 2015 #114
Now you're lying about what I said. GGJohn Jun 2015 #118
You contend that because the flag is state property the feds can't stop them.. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #128
Actually, its the naval jack of the Confederate Navy, not a flag of the army. 7962 Jun 2015 #72
Thank you for the info. GGJohn Jun 2015 #82
AND General Lee's battle flag and the battle flag of the Confederate Army of Tennessee. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #99
And it's still protected under the 1A. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #100
The 1st Am protects people, not government. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #103
And yet, the US govt has declined to intervene. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #105
That does not make it any less an injustice. nt SunSeeker Jun 2015 #106
What injustise? GGJohn Jun 2015 #108
The injustice of your government treating you like you are subhuman chattel. SunSeeker Jun 2015 #112
It just might be the start of something good and enduring. marble falls Jun 2015 #28
Wow, props to him for that. Jamastiene Jun 2015 #31
Republicans are the only ones who can do this gratuitous Jun 2015 #36
Good point. Jamastiene Jun 2015 #38
They also need to: bkkyosemite Jun 2015 #34
Really. SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #55
A ray of hope Iwillnevergiveup Jun 2015 #39
Oh, so when it's HIS friend, when it affects HIM PERSONALLY . . . hatrack Jun 2015 #49
That's the way human beings work, SusanCalvin Jun 2015 #58
I appreciate what' he's trying to do. herding cats Jun 2015 #57
Change comes too slowly but we progress with changing one heart at a time ALBliberal Jun 2015 #60
Very nicely said. nt 7962 Jun 2015 #74
they should call a special session KT2000 Jun 2015 #96
Appropriate marions ghost Jun 2015 #101
that makes me cry.. thank you, lostandfound. :( Cha Jun 2015 #115
Will fall into the snake pit when we call it the confederate flag. TheOther95Percent Jun 2015 #116
K&R valerief Jun 2015 #123
K&R myrna minx Jun 2015 #119
One should be very careful sulphurdunn Jun 2015 #126
Sons of Confederacy Booth at Festival HockeyMom Jun 2015 #130
Thank you hockeymom saidsimplesimon Jun 2015 #134
They just need to keep focusing on the connection between avebury Jun 2015 #140
I wrote Representative Brannon an email stage left Jun 2015 #142
And that's good bluestateguy Jun 2015 #143

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
1. Germans don't get to fly the Nazi flag as a way to honor their war dead
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:41 PM
Jun 2015

so that "heritage" argument is BS.

Take it down

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
6. ...
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:46 PM
Jun 2015
Germans don't get to fly the Nazi flag as a way to honor their war dead
so that "heritage" argument is BS.


That's a false comparison, Germany doesn't have the equivelant of the 1A like we do.
The confederate flag is a symbol of hate and racism, but it's also protected by the 1A as freedom of speech and expression.
 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
9. Hate speech is not protected by the 1A
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:59 PM
Jun 2015

One can make the argument the Confederate Battle flag is a form of hate speech.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
10. Hate speech is most certainly protected by the 1A,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 09:06 PM
Jun 2015

and the confederate flag is part of that protection.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
50. That pos flag
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:30 PM
Jun 2015

..is like yelling fire in a theater. Fuck that pos flag of racists. Get rid of it, now.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
56. Not anynore
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:35 PM
Jun 2015

It is worse than yelling fire. It is a symbol of death and destruction and any who fly it should be put in jail from this day forward.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
59. Really?
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jun 2015

Post a link where it was reclassified as a hate crime? Or reclassified and equivalent to yelling fire in a theater.

BTW, it's legal to yell fire in a theater if the person believes that there is evidence of a fire.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
66. Tell it to the judge
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:43 PM
Jun 2015

It will be outlawed.

We need to educate these dumb asses about what that flag stands for, and it stands for death and destruction, is anti-American, and is for slavery. Fuck any dumb ass who flies it. Teach them a lesson and let them talk to the judge.

Outlaw it and you can take it to court and let the SCOTUS decide.

Mr.Bill

(24,300 posts)
133. Just because the 1st ammendment gives the state the right to fly it,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 02:08 PM
Jun 2015

doesn't mean they have to or should.

The 1st amendment gives me the right to fly a Nazi flag on my house, but I choose not to.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
67. Nor, John, is TREASON protected by the First Amendment.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:44 PM
Jun 2015

And keep in mind that what you see flying over so many flagpoles in the Deep South, isn't just any flag - it's the Confederate BATTLE flag.

Having lived in Mississippi for several years not that long ago ('90s), I can tell you positively that to the hard-core Dixie right wing the battle flag is flown purposefully and as a message. That message, of course, being that "we are still at war."

That's a phrase you might hear often down there in backyard barbecues, once certain people get a few drinks in them (and far from being limited to "rednecks," this can include influential people with large homes on magnolia-lined streets).

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
77. Ok, post the link where the confederate battle flag has been ruled as treason.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:52 PM
Jun 2015

Can you do that? Has the DoJ EVER filed charges against anyone flying that flag?
If not, then do you agree that the flag is protected under the 1A?

forest444

(5,902 posts)
86. Display of the Confederate Battle flag isn't treason or a crime in itself, of course.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:14 AM
Jun 2015
But secession was - and displaying the battle flag under which the treasonous CSA fought is tantamount to a celebration of the most destructive attack we as a country ever suffered (the "War of Northern Aggression," as many still call it in the Deep South). Especially because it's very much meant that way by many of those who take part in flying the Stars and Bars.

It may be legal; but it really is comparable to flying an Al-Qaida banner. And as Wednesday's tragedy reminds us, just as much a threat if not more.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
88. You do realize that the flag flown over the memorial statute on the capitol grounds
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:18 AM
Jun 2015

isn't the battle flag don't you?
It's the CSA Naval Jack Flag, which was never an official flag of the CSA.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
95. Well, if you must split hairs
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:31 AM
Jun 2015

The Stars and Bars was used not only as the battle flag of the CSA armies of Virginia and Tennessee and (as you mentioned) the CSA Navy, it was incorporated integrally into the "national flag" of the CSA itself.

In all cases representing not only the secessionist state, but its armed forces as well. In other words, both the civilian and military fronts of the greatest treason this country ever suffered (with the possible exception of the Bush administration).

It's worth reiterating here that its display is, in many quarters in the Deep South, meant as a deliberate celebration of said crimes against the United States - and many will tell you so to your face, especially if you doubt their sincerity in that regard.

Dylann Roof certainly thought of it that way.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
97. I don't doubt your word,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:37 AM
Jun 2015

but until it's labeled as a hate crime to fly one, a move I would vehemently oppose, it's still protected under the 1A.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
129. I agree with TRP, but displaying the Dixie swastika is not legally an act of treason.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:22 PM
Jun 2015

Flying it makes one a vile, racist piece of shit.

However, you brought up treason in the context of the First Amendment and a legal context, and no matter how you parse it, flying the Dixie swastika does not meet the Constitutional definition of treason, which is the one that matters legally.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
131. You're right, unfortunately.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jun 2015

And trust me: even if the post-Civil War era ban on the display of Confederate insignia had never been allowed to lapse, these Deep South good ole boy judges and governors would make sure that doing so was rarely, if ever, punished (on the contrary; don't be too shocked if this little monster's family became rich overnight as their "reward&quot .

I lived in Mississippi for a number of years, and can tell you that some folks down there have a funny way of deciding which federal laws do - or do not - apply. Moreover, Obama's election to the presidency made them all the more motivated to act as a law unto themselves.

They still love all that Federal money though: in most Deep South states Uncle Sam covers 40% or more of their state budgets.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
71. Thank you!!!!
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:48 PM
Jun 2015

It scares the hell out of me when progressives want to ban something that's offensive, what happens when the R's take the WH and decide this flag is offensive?



This banning shit could fast get out of hand.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
78. +1000.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:54 PM
Jun 2015

And if the R's ever get back the presidency, you can bet they would try to outlaw anything associated with gay rights, including that symbol.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
81. Sauce for the goose, you betcha.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:57 PM
Jun 2015

I try to think about that whenever I'm considering my position. Many thanks to my mom.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
84. You know what, I've reconsidered my position.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:11 AM
Jun 2015

Let the individual idiots display one. Let the rest of us recognize them.

Does anybody else remember a standup routine about everyone being issued suction-cup darts with "idiot" flags - any car bearing more than five would be pulled over and given a ticket? (I've tried to Google it with no luck.)

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
85. I agree.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:13 AM
Jun 2015

I would rather know who the hateful racists are and be able to engage them, than not knowing.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
90. That's the way the guy was caught.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:21 AM
Jun 2015

But I must say, as a member of A&A, that I wish the catcher had given more credit to herself.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
92. She was very brave and humble, I admire her for that,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:23 AM
Jun 2015

although I think she should be given some sort of a reward for her intuition and bravery.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
94. She credited "God"
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:30 AM
Jun 2015

I am grateful to her nevertheless, and for all I know we may mean the same thing (see Heinlein), but nevertheless, as an atheist I was somewhat dismayed. But it is the Bible belt. I live here. I make allowances.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
136. I believe it,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 03:13 PM
Jun 2015

because I know very little about any stand-up comics, so I assume you know more than I do and are right.

I just happened to see it decades ago and never forgot it, because I'd so like to see it put into practice!

bigmonkey

(1,798 posts)
138. Gallagher
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 04:35 PM
Jun 2015

The watermelon and sledgehammer guy. Kind of a RW jerk, on the whole, but the suction-cup-dart idea was funny.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
121. Shouting fire in a crowded theater.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:03 AM
Jun 2015

That was part of the majority opinion for Schenck v United States, which was overturned by Brandenburg and replaced by imminent lawless action.

rurallib

(62,416 posts)
14. it may be "protected" but the state endorsing it by flying the symbol
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 09:58 PM
Jun 2015

of hate, of racism, of treason (yes treason) is beyond the pale.

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
29. That was kind of my thinking.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:33 PM
Jun 2015

We might not be able to stop every dumb fuck out there from flying that sheet of shit, but we can sure as hell mandate our Government doesn't fly it or even dare endorse the goddamn thing.

daleanime

(17,796 posts)
26. How is that confusing?
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:23 PM
Jun 2015

I'm sure that there's some people in bed with the government, but that's produced no offspring yet.


Or do you believe, like Mitt, that corporations(and governments) are people too, my friend.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
17. that is true. the comparison is still accurate
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:06 PM
Jun 2015

And that a state flies it atop its capitol, is shameful.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
24. Iirc, it's not atop the Capital. It's on a Confederate Soldiers memorial
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:20 PM
Jun 2015

on the Capital grounds.

That's how it's gotten around the usual rules. It's a historic "artifact" (cough) on a war memorial.


Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
33. There is a difference between having the confederate flag
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:43 PM
Jun 2015

on government property and an individual having it. An individual has the 1A right, as obnoxious as it is to fly that flag, but the US government should crack down on that anti-American flag on government property. It is an anti-American flag. It represents another country that fought against America. It should be seen as a terrorist threat when displayed on government property like that. There is a place for it, in museums and history books, not on government property.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
35. It's not US govt. property, it's SC govt property,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:54 PM
Jun 2015

hence it's up to the SC govt to take it down, and down it should come.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
44. No, it shouldn't.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:26 PM
Jun 2015

It should be put on display in a museum to be a reminder of a sad part of our history.

For Freddie

(79 posts)
137. None of us want to see it
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 03:53 PM
Jun 2015

It is like having a graphic child rape flag. Or wife beating flag.
It represents terrible abuse and degradation of human life.
What needs to happen to it is 5 gallons of napalm and a sniper
to ignite it, or maybe a Mark 2 pineapple fragmentation
grenade. At the least a 357 magnum loaded with blanks duck taped to a flare. All of these have been used festively on Burn Notice.
Sam Axe is needed here. Where is a shoulder held missile when we need one? This is therapeutic fantasy.

I don't understand why someone at night doesn't do a Yippee action as in the 60's. It probably has better security than the dear human beings that were sacrificed for it.

As to the First Amendment, as my old law prof once said: "The 1st Amendment and Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is."
And Bush fixed that one too. We are locked in the Bush Cheney night mare and only beginning to head toward any real change.

`

For Freddie

(79 posts)
139. None of us want to see it
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:09 PM
Jun 2015

It is like having a graphic child rape flag. Or wife beating flag.
It represents terrible abuse and degradation of human life.
What needs to happen to it is 5 gallons of napalm and a sniper
to ignite it, or maybe a Mark 2 pineapple fragmentation
grenade. At the least a 357 magnum loaded with blanks duck taped to a flare. All of these have been used festively on Burn Notice.
Sam Axe is needed here. Where is a shoulder held missile when we need one? This is thereputic fantasy.

I don't understand why someone at night doesn't do a Yippee action as in the 60's. It probably has better security than the dear human beings that were sacrificed for it.

As to the First Amendment, as my old law prof once said: "The 1st Amendment and Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is."
And Bush fixed that one too. We are locked in the Bush Cheney night mare and only beginning to head toward any real change.

`

DamnYankeeInHouston

(1,365 posts)
62. "It is an anti-American flag. It represents another country that fought against America."
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:39 PM
Jun 2015

Perfectly stated. Thank you. It is a traitorous flag.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
87. Unfortunately.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:16 AM
Jun 2015

After all, it is a symbol of treason against same. But our history is complicated.....

SwankyXomb

(2,030 posts)
125. You know who flies that flag?
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:14 PM
Jun 2015

You know who defends that flag? Racists, traitors, murderers and terrorists.

Which one of those are you?

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
4. Good to see a Republican doing the right thing
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:45 PM
Jun 2015

I hope he doesn't get crushed by the Teabagger wrath he is about to face.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
8. Give it a fucking rest,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:48 PM
Jun 2015

he's doing the right thing because he lost a close friend, at least try to acknowledge it's a good thing.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
22. Thats a tough job for a lot of folks here!
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:16 PM
Jun 2015

In an Op yesterday Gov Haley was called everything in the book after her speech. But what would these same folks be saying had she kept silent after this attack? Then she'd be blasted for not caring!

ZX86

(1,428 posts)
45. Too little....too late.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:27 PM
Jun 2015

How many "no one could have predicted" memes from Republicans after the bodies pile up can one take?

"No one could have predicted":

- 9/11 after "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S." memo.

- No WMD's in Iraq

- Iraq War lasting more than a few weeks.

- Iraq War not paying for itself.

- U.S. soldiers greeted as liberators.

- Tax cuts for the wealthy not creating jobs.

- Racist flags flown on government property giving aid and comfort to domestic terrorists.

The idea that a "close friend" has to be brutally murdered before you can recognize his humanity is pathetic. Sorry. I don't have a lot of sympathy today for Republicans. It got all used up on murdered Black folks living under the flag of traitors.



ZX86

(1,428 posts)
79. Do you have any other stunning revelations like...
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:54 PM
Jun 2015

Robert Byrd was in the KKK? Failing rust belt cities have had Democratic mayors? White people co-founded the NAACP?



GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
80. Nope, but you seem to hit all the R talking points.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:56 PM
Jun 2015

Hmmm, why would that be? You seem to know those talking points a little to well.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
19. A lot of the pressure to be an asshole is coming down on them from a national level....
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:11 PM
Jun 2015

There are Republicans that hold lower offices that aren't as bad.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
120. Sorry, but this isn't 1954. To be a Republican todays means you hate women, you hate POC, and
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 10:33 AM
Jun 2015

you really, really hate American jobs.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
48. True as far as it goes, but perhaps he will change.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:29 PM
Jun 2015

Actually, this is already a change. Perhaps others will follow.

ecstatic

(32,705 posts)
144. It's frustrating that repubs are incapable of empathizing ("getting it") until something personally
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 10:30 PM
Jun 2015

affects them. I'm glad this man finally supports taking the flag down, but he should have been against it years ago.

blm

(113,063 posts)
7. I think the national party is going to pressure SCGOP.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 08:46 PM
Jun 2015

I think some of the more moderate Republicans have to use this time to flex whatever muscle they can on this issue. It won't last long when primary voting begins.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
32. They have the nerve to call it a "compromise "? They lost the fucking Civil War.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:40 PM
Jun 2015

It was an unconditional surrender.

Why the federal government has allowed the Southern state governments to continue flying the rebel battle flag is beyond me.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
37. Because the Fed. Govt has no jurisidiction.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:03 PM
Jun 2015

This is state property, not Fed. property, it's up to the state legislature to remove it.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
40. That is the Confederate battle flag, not a state flag.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:15 PM
Jun 2015

A state government flying the flag of the treasonous army who faught to enforce slavery is a hate crime against African Americans. I believe it amounts to harrassment of African Americans and violates the 14th Amendment equal protection clause--which can be enforced against the states by USDOJ.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
41. That may be the way you see it, but it's not the law,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:20 PM
Jun 2015

again, THIS IS STATE PROPERTY, NOT FED PROPERTY, IT'S UP TO THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO REMOVE IT!!!!
Clear enough?

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
47. The 14th Amendment is the law.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:29 PM
Jun 2015

Just because the flag is state property does not mean the state can do whatever it wants with it. It must act in compliance with the US Constitution and anti-discrimination laws.


GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
54. Then tell me something here, if what you claim were true,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:34 PM
Jun 2015

then why hasn't the US Govt stepped in and remove it?
Sorry, but you're 100% wrong.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
89. The feds pick their battles I guess.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:19 AM
Jun 2015

Seems they have their hands full just suing over the racist voter suppression laws.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
91. Or they recognize that this is a state's issue and they have no jurisdiction over it.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:21 AM
Jun 2015

Think that's just as a viable explanation as yours?

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
102. Discrimination is not a state's right.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:46 AM
Jun 2015

The 14th Amendment made sure of that.

Whatever the fed's reason for not going after this injustice does not make it any less an injustice.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
104. Never said it was,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:53 AM
Jun 2015

but the fact remains that the feds aren't going to go after SC because they recognize that this is a state's rights issue.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
107. That's your opinion. That is not a fact.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:38 AM
Jun 2015

You do not know why the feds have not acted. Nor do you know for a fact that they never will.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
110. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:49 AM
Jun 2015

And yours is not better than mine.

Sad that you are so tenacious about defending South Carolina flying the Confederate battle flag.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
111. LOLOL.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:57 AM
Jun 2015

I was wondering when you would accuse me of defending SC flying the CSA flag.
You took longer than I figured you would.
I'm not defending them flying the flag, that's a flat out lie by you, I'm telling you that the feds have zero jurisdiction in this, this is a state's rights issue, which the Feds recognize.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
114. You contend the state should be able to fly that flag because it's "state property."
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 02:15 AM
Jun 2015

You claim the feds have no jurisdiction, while ignoring the 14th Am. You're making up nonsensical arguments to support SC. You're defending them flying the flag. Arguing for unfettered "state's rights" is a loud dog whistle and is absolutely wrong. The feds go after states all the time for racist actions, particularly in regard to voting.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
118. Now you're lying about what I said.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 08:41 AM
Jun 2015

I never said the state should fly that flag, I said that it's a protected form of free speech under the 1A, and apparently the Feds think so also as witnessed by the lack of any intervention.

The feds go after states all the time for racist actions, particularly in regard to voting.


They why haven't they? Pres. Obama could have said yesterday that he was directing the DoJ to intervene and remove that flag, but he didn't, because Pres. Obama, being the smart man that he is, knows this is a state's rights issue and hopes they'll do the right thing by removing it.

And quit lying about me defending them flying the flag, I have done no such thing, and I'm not arguing for unfettered state's rights.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
128. You contend that because the flag is state property the feds can't stop them..
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:08 PM
Jun 2015

You continue to disregard the constraints on states by the 14th Am and the power it gives to the feds to stop discriminatory state conduct. You fail to see the injustice of it (post 108: "What injustice?" (Sic)). All while screaming in angry all caps (post 41)

THIS IS STATE PROPERTY, NOT FED PROPERTY, IT'S UP TO THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO REMOVE IT!!!! 


Yeah, you're defending SC. And with a lot of anger. Methinks thou dost protest too much.
 

7962

(11,841 posts)
72. Actually, its the naval jack of the Confederate Navy, not a flag of the army.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:48 PM
Jun 2015

It was also never one of the official flags of the Confederacy. But with the klan, etc, taking it as their own everyone thinks its the "flag of the confederate states".

The "heritage" argument might have carried some weight if all those who think it "honors their ancestors" had put up a fuss when the racist groups started using it. But too late for that now.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
99. AND General Lee's battle flag and the battle flag of the Confederate Army of Tennessee.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:40 AM
Jun 2015

And eventually found its way onto the national flag of the Confederacy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

It is a potent symbol of the Confederacy, and why the Sons of Confederate Veterans fought so hard (fortunately unsuccessfully) to get it plastered on Texas license plates. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/CSA4LIFE/388427/

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
103. The 1st Am protects people, not government.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:49 AM
Jun 2015

Government speech is very much restricted, particularly by the 14th Am.'s equal protection clause.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
108. What injustise?
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:44 AM
Jun 2015

If the feds had declared that flying the confederate flag was a hate crime, then, yeah, not prosecuting it would be an injustice, but being as it's protected under the 1A, trying to prosecute it as a hate crime would be an injustice.

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
112. The injustice of your government treating you like you are subhuman chattel.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 02:07 AM
Jun 2015

SC, by flying that flag, is making an in your face statement to African Americans that SC is on the side of slavery. It is the battle flag of a Confederacy that treated African Americans as livestock. A state flying that flag amounts to racial harassment and disparate treatment based on race, a violation of the 14th Am equal protection clause. A government is required by the 14th Am to treat all its citizens equally, not state that African Americans are human livestock, which is what that flag says.

And SC government is NOT protected by the 1st Am, as I and another poster in this thread explained to you (and you appeared to understand in responding to the other poster).

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
31. Wow, props to him for that.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:39 PM
Jun 2015

I never saw that coming. A Republican, really? It takes some serious courage to suggest taking down the confederate flag in SC. Wow. I'm actually shocked, in a good way, though. Amazing. I hope he can talk the rest into it too.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
36. Republicans are the only ones who can do this
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:59 PM
Jun 2015

You know what would happen if some concerned citizens took a chainsaw to that flag pole on the Capitol grounds. The batshit crazy racists who run that open air lunatic asylum would go batshittier crazier, and install a new flag pole and post a 24-hour armed guard on it with orders to shoot to kill anyone who strayed within 10 feet of it.

The only people who have the power to take down that symbol of hatred are the people who put it up: South Carolina Republicans. Do they have the will to do it? Or are they such craven little men that they can't tell their racist base to go piss up a rope?

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
38. Good point.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:04 PM
Jun 2015

If a Democrat tried it, it would be the same as you said. If anyone but a Republican tried it, it would be the same as you said.

bkkyosemite

(5,792 posts)
34. They also need to:
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 10:47 PM
Jun 2015

Take down the statues of killers and the names of streets...unbelievable. They act like the war is still going on and they haven't gotten over losing the battle...so they continue to kill.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
55. Really.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:34 PM
Jun 2015

I live in an area where streets are named Plantation this and Plantation that. It's a miracle the inside of my car isn't covered in vomit.

hatrack

(59,587 posts)
49. Oh, so when it's HIS friend, when it affects HIM PERSONALLY . . .
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:30 PM
Jun 2015

Then it's time for action. But up until now, he couldn't be bothered.

Sorry for the insta-cyn, but I'm to the point that when someone says "I'm a Republican", my default response is "Here comes some bullshit."

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
58. That's the way human beings work,
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:37 PM
Jun 2015

at least a lot (maybe most) of them. I'm just grateful he was touched.

herding cats

(19,564 posts)
57. I appreciate what' he's trying to do.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 11:36 PM
Jun 2015

Sometimes it takes a major blow to make a person see what's right, and understand why it was wrong before. I'm just glad he sees it and is willing to try to do the right thing.

KT2000

(20,581 posts)
96. they should call a special session
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:31 AM
Jun 2015

to get this done. I think he said it would be December before this can be done. I fear it will never pass in December/January.

TheOther95Percent

(1,035 posts)
116. Will fall into the snake pit when we call it the confederate flag.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 03:24 AM
Jun 2015

The confederacy had three national flags. For a country that lasted four years, that is mighty impressive. The first one was discarded because it looked too much like the flag borne by the Grand Army of the Republic. The second flag resembles the one flown in South Carolina and the third one is so charming it incorporates the image of the second flag over a white banner. The white section is meant to symbolize in the words of William Thomson, a co-designer,

As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.

Yeah, just feel the history, culture and pride wrapped up in that banner.

No, my friends, I refer to that THING flying over SC as the sore losers banner or the traitors rag. I saw another one today on DU that I'm going to use, Dixie Swaztika.

An excellent overview on the Confederacy and how internal strife caused its downfall.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/12/966022/-The-Truth-About-the-Confederacy

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
126. One should be very careful
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 12:30 PM
Jun 2015

of getting into the business of banning symbols. History is replete with attempts to extinguish symbols that only fanned the flames of what they represented. Symbols die when people no longer believe in what they stand for and not before.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
130. Sons of Confederacy Booth at Festival
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:26 PM
Jun 2015

I want to be very, very careful here since I have no way of knowing if any of this was sanctioned by the "official organization", or just some extremist members selling their own stuff. This was at a major festival in Florida, attended by people from all over the country.

In addition to selling Confederate Flags, tshirts,bumper stickers, they had a number of shirts with pro gun messages, some of which were outright racial hatred. I will not quote them. My husband was browsing gun shirts.

Then I saw the paper targets. I literally froze when I saw the one with Obama's face on it. That even bothered my Republican husband. "You do not advocate using the President of the United States of America, whoever he is, for target practice". I had to pull him away because he wanted to say something to them, as a VETERAN who served to defend the USA, AND the President of it.

Again, as I stated in my opening lines, I do not know if this was sanctioned by that organization, but the FESTIVAL organizers should have shut them down for the merchandise they were selling.

This only proves that there still is a lot of hatred out there, including for our President.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
134. Thank you hockeymom
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 02:31 PM
Jun 2015

Some nut jobs hate US, the majority, for electing a black president. They hate US for supporting an agenda of tolerance, acceptance and prosperity for the entire nation, not just the billionaire class. They work against their own self interests. They practice a zero sum game by embracing failed trickle down economic policies and wars without end.

"Again, as I stated in my opening lines, I do not know if this was sanctioned by that organization, but the FESTIVAL organizers should have shut them down for the merchandise they were selling.

This only proves that there still is a lot of hatred out there, including for our President."

avebury

(10,952 posts)
140. They just need to keep focusing on the connection between
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 05:16 PM
Jun 2015

Confederate flag and the KKK. Every time the Confederate flag is talked about, KKK should be included.

stage left

(2,962 posts)
142. I wrote Representative Brannon an email
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jun 2015

thanking him for taking this step. I tried to call him to thank him, but I couldn't get an answer. It takes courage to stand up against the majority and I understand that polls indicate that 70% of the people in SC don't want the Confederate flag taken down. I don't know if that has changed since the murders. They apparently changed Brannon's mind and his heart as well. Perhaps there will be a domino effect. I hope so.

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