The timing of the SC Judge is tone deaf. But the underlying message is one we need to hear.

[Ms. Toad]

I know first hand that the shooter's family may well also be victims. And those of you who are so sure the parents are to blame certainly don't yet know enough to make that assessment.

Thirty-five years ago this spring, my brother raped one woman and murdered two in a crime brutal enough to make national news.

None of us, including the famiy of one of the victims who grew up knowing him, knew my brother as someone who could have committed such heinous acts as he did on the night he made into the worst night of their lives, our family's, and his own. And he is today, not the man he was that night. He is a respected elder in the prison where he will live the rest of his life, and played a role in minimizing the violence and deaths in recent prison riots. The word in the yard was, "Listen to Mr. {Ms. Toad's sibling}." As far as everyone knows, it was a single violent night in a life of (now) nearly 22,000 nights.

He was raised in a family where violence and racial bigotry were condemned. My father was the first conscientious objector in the state. My parents spoke to the state legislature to urge them to reject death penalty, years before they knew their son would be sentenced under the very law they had lobbied against. My father spent several years working for social and economic justice issues in three different national organizations. We were not the kind of family you would ever imagine would include a murderer.

Although I was too emotionally traumatized to be aware of it at the time, I am sure that in the immediate aftermath there were those who blamed my parents for teaching him to rape and murder. Because it happens every time there is a brutally violent crime that makes the national news. People immediately blame the family.

My brother did not learn at home, the acts he committed that night. And yes, those who love someone who commits violent acts are also grieving deeply.

I've shared it before, but here is a bit of a glimpse through my lens:

As I struggled to reconcile the gentle, imaginative, funny, and beloved brother I knew with the person who was capable of perpetrating such violence, our family was given an almost unimaginable gift – the loving witness and continued friendship of the family of one of my brother’s victims; the acknowledgement that we both had lost loved ones, made concrete the next day by members of the family of one of his victims with this simple gesture: “On that Sunday morning ‘. . . There were two flowers in the front of our sanctuary for us to view as we gathered for worship — one for the victim and one for the accused, put there by the victim’s family’” (Quoted from an article written about the event)

I have no idea about family the SC shooter was raised in. And neither do you - unless you know them personally.

So while I agree that the timing was really tone deaf, the solution from my perspective is not that we should pretend the white-skinned SC Shooter's family is not in pain, but that we need to start talking with more empathy and compassion about the families of all people who commit violent acts - including people with brown skin. Nearly all people who are tangled up in, and commit, violent acts have people who love them, and who are also hurting deeply in the wake of the violence their family member committed.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

1. K&R And Peace.

[Ms. Toad]

3. And how do you know they brought their son up to be a racist?

Unless you know them, you have no idea how they raised him.

And if they didn't raise him to be a racist, do you really believe that disowning him would somehow make the pain and guilt that a child they brought into the world could commit such an atrocious act?

As far as who cares - it seems to me the families of the victims care. Having compassion for the victims is not inconsistent with also having compassion for the shooter's family. Perhaps you could learn something from those most directly impacted.

[mythology]

5. It's like you didn't read what you're replying to

Unless you mean to say that Ms. Toad's parents taught their son to commit unspeakable acts of violence.

Children are not simply younger versions of their parents. My biological dad was an abusive bastard, which he had learned from his dad. I am not. Because while it would have been easy to treat others like he treated me, I made a choice to not do so. But according to your logic, I must be an abusive bastard because that's how my dad raised me.

It's easy to say that his family failed, because there's no price to do so, you're going along with the mob. You get to look suitably outraged and to show everybody just how serious you are about how bad this shooting was. But you lose the opportunity to learn something from it about the human condition.

You lose sight of the fact that a possibly good family may have lost the son they thought they knew. If they weren't racists, didn't raise their kid to do this, then they have to come to grips with the fact that their kid did turn out like that.

Think about what the family and friends of somebody who commits suicide must feel. Asking themselves what they could have done differently, if they should have picked up the phone, or given that person a hug, or whatever. But life doesn't work that way. You can't always see what's going on in somebody else's head. You can't always discern the path they are going down.

In coming to grips with the fact that my dad was an abusive bastard, my grandmother dying, being kicked out of high school and moving 1000 miles, I went to some crappy places emotionally. If I had crossed the line and either harmed myself or others, my mom would have been beside herself even though only the moving was her fault and that was the least of my emotional problems.

[Journeyman]

9. Dylan Roof's family turned him in and have condemned him and his acts . . .

His father and uncle informed the authorities it was Dylann Roof who did the shooting.

The uncle, Carson Cowles, expressed that Dylann Roof would receive "no sympathy" from the family, that he would "ride the lightening" (be executed), and if the uncle could, he'd pull the switch on him himself.

“He’s going to pay for what he’s done," said Cowles. "I'd pull the switch myself, if they'd let me.”


http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-dylann-roof-uncle-20150618-story.html


This story, as is most of life, seems to be far more complicated than you seem to want it to be.

[Igel]

11. Nobody here has to care about their pain.

But to object to others' caring about the pain those others assume Roof's family feels is inappropriate.

Perhaps if we learn that the accusation you make has some truth to it, that might change. But first we need evidence and not just outrage, emotion, and suspicion. Esp. since as far as I know, nobody here personally knew any of the victims so all the suffering here is either due to empathy or vicarious.

I get empathy. But vicarious suffering isn't something I'm into. I run into enough suffering without having to live others' vicariously.

[riderinthestorm]

13. How do you know he was brought up a racist? nt

[logosoco]

4. Thanks for this.

I , too have a family member who murdered. He is a nephew by marriage, but I met him when he was two and I loved him. While I can say that the family members of anyone who has killed will know pain like they never knew, I can't really call them a victim. The word just doesn't fit for me.

After this happened to our family, I found that there is very little information that "helps" families of murderers.
To me, in a great sense, murder hurts all of humanity on some level.

After going over the why this happens, both personally and with my kids, I found myself realizing these things boil down to choice. That is some small consolation, but freeing. Every human being makes choices. This may be too simple sounding, but it helps me.
Now we just need to find out what makes people make these kind of choices! To some extent, I guess we all have good and evil in us, but more good. That is sometimes hard to remember, but it is true!
I also came to think that it is easy when people "blame" drugs. But I don't really believe that is true. I don't think drugs can make you do something that is not in you. You may not know it was there at all, but drugs did not just put it there.

The mother of the victim in this case in my life was an old family friend and also an acquaintance of mine. We found each other on Facebook, and it was wonderful for me to tell her how I think of her every single day and wish her peace and how when I feel weak in life, she is an inspiration. She recently lost another daughter way too young and, well, that was recent and I still can't breathe yet thinking of that.

These are just things I have concluded for myself to find some peace in life after having something so horrifying happen so near to me. There are no pat answers. Maybe as I get older and have other experiences, these thoughts may change, but it is how I can deal now.

[Ms. Toad]

14. Everytime there is another mass shooting, and the media/DU/etc. start tearing into the family

I remember how that time in my life felt, and hope that sharing my experience (one most people never think about) might help both to let family members know they are not alone - and perhaps give those who react so strongly a glimpse into an experience they assume no one like them could ever have.

You're right about the term victim, though - but I don't even like the description victim for people usually classed as victims. It is the venomous reaction to families who are also in pain that I am trying to address by giving them/us a human face.

The friendship between families of the victim and survivor can be very powerful. Our three families have been bound together - two since the day after the murders, and the third since he came within 36 hours of execution and the husband and daughter of the second woman came to work to prevent it. My piece was published only with the review and with the consent of both families. Part of the message both families conveyed was that executing my brother would do nothing for them - and would create another innocent family grieving over their dead child.

[logosoco]

18. With each incident there are more and more affected. It does hurt somewhat to

see the almost off the cuff remarks sometimes. I don't even like it when people make fun of a whole state because it happens to have more than the average amount of weirdness. But I guess it helps people feel less guilt or something? I guess it is a way to feel disconnected to these humans among us, but then we are more away from remembering we all are made of the same stuff, we all came from the same place. And we are connected with love. Even in those hard times when things are done that are so horrible.

My nephew is on death row. My husband and I made a conscious choice not to take part in the trail (sentencing trial only because he confessed). That was difficult, because I am against the death penalty, but it was the wish of the family and I certainly did not want to disagree with them on that. That brought up a lot of personal conflict over my thoughts on the DP.

I have read over the threads you have linked to. Very interesting and helpful. Did you have a piece published elsewhere that you have a link to?

Connecting with you here on DU, where i feel so comfortable, has been helpful. I have learned much about myself and humans in the years since this happened, but obviously we will always learn more and more.

[Ms. Toad]

19. The piece is just my blog post,

originally published in a community site dedicated to hosting challenging conversations from people with divergent viewpoints (from which I've excerpted links to other articles and identifying details - not that it would be terribly hard to track me down - but someone would have to go to a little effort, at lest).

Having a loved on on death row is really hard. My brother was there for 20 years, before the court - quite unexpectedly - found a way to order a new trial, 36 hours before his execution. They spent about a year deciding whether to have another trial, and ultimately decided not to - by commuting his death sentence to life in prison without parol.

But in that process, we went through prison visits with pat-downs (or more) for every visit (and having our children strip searched until around age 2), deciding whether to tell them why their uncle was in jail - and when execution became a near certainty, whether to tell the then 8 year olds that their uncle was going to be executed. My brother and I made different decisions - which made it hard for my daughter who then had a secret she couldn't tell her cousins. Making arrangements for disposal of his body, before he was actually dead, writing a final note to send to the people who had stood by us for 2 decades, and figuring out whether to be present for the execution - or in the church with the victim's families (or just to vanish, knowing the circus that was about to start). And, of course, the up and down so many times before the final time - and the times he wanted to just give up and let the state kill him (holding our breath hoping he would change his mind before the appeal date passed - knowing that we had to let him control the only thing he had control over). Not something I ever expected to be involved with, or would wish in my worst enemy.

I'll send you a link to the blog. It has a link to the another article about the incident and how the families handled it you might find helpful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. We cover courts regularly

mostly these days due to one particular California Criminal Court. I know that the courts take into account not just the families of the victims, but the family of the perpetrator. (Sorry for the momentary sort of clinical tone here)

While DA's have as a priority the families of victims, many judges do see all involved in the process as victims. I was not shocked to hear that statement, becuase I have heard it in the past. We have shared a lot with families as well, of people who were forced to plea, or ahem, pressured... who probably should not. The pain for those families is extremely real.

Oh and it goes without saying. HUGS. Deep HUGS

Also this was the magistrate, who has to find if there is evidence to proceed, ergo he will not be the trial judge. He seems to have had a history of using the N word a few years back, but that is another matter. I was not there, so I cannot judge.

[Ms. Toad]

15. Thank you.

In most cases it is not a possibility - but all the mothers were excluded from the trial, and it confused the prosecution to no end to see my mother and the mother of one of the victims sitting together being each other's primary support - providing each other with a support so deep that only two women whose each lost a child as the result of a single violent event can share.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. So true,

right now we cannot wait for the 26th, A young man might be let go by the Judge. She actually asked us to attend... which we will gladly do.

[mythology]

7. Thank you for posting this

It's easy for people to assume the worst about the family, especially when it's not their family. It allows us to distance ourselves and be so sure that we could never do something awful.

[tosh]

8. Kick and rec.

[aikoaiko]

10. powerful.

[riderinthestorm]

12. Thank you for this. Children go their own ways. Many times 180 degrees from their upbringing

When children reach puberty, all bets are off imo. They are as susceptible to peer influence as parental influence - maybe more so.

Some kids just go off the rails despite being raised in loving homes where NONE of the negative behaviors were/are modeled. Sometimes it's drugs, peers etc.

You can believe 110% that you're "in touch" with your child, communicating, loving, laughing - then BAM! it's all proven to be a lie.

Your story is immensely powerful, sad and tragic. Thanks for sharing

[Ms. Toad]

16. You are welcome. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

20. Kick for the Saturday crowd. n/t

[malaise]

21. I understand your perspective

but as you started - the timing was wrong