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CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 04:38 PM Jun 2015

Gun advocates don't just oppose gun control and discussions of gun control

Post in discussion forums and you will find that many that oppose gun control also oppose educational programs and cultural approaches which discourage gun use and gun possession, but don't actually outlaw or regulate it.

Many don't even want you saying that guns are not the solution to violence.

It's no wonder that many of us suspect that these are not the words of activists, but lobbyists for the gun manufacturers and their trade associations.

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Gun advocates don't just oppose gun control and discussions of gun control (Original Post) CreekDog Jun 2015 OP
Oh, yeah. Like around here. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #1
Man with a gun inspired user name, comments. Hoyt Jun 2015 #9
Tell us the real reason you want guns restricted. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #55
Why don't you post a link and I'll tell you why it's BS. Hoyt Jun 2015 #56
Why don't you just tell us? eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #57
It's in your court gun lover. Go for it. Hoyt Jun 2015 #58
Oooooh, now it's gun lover? GGJohn Jun 2015 #59
Hoyt. I heard a lot of "______ lover" when I was young. Use a different smear. nt Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #65
Still applicable today, especially for people who have a gun reference in their user name. Hoyt Jun 2015 #68
The word I heard was not "Gun." So drop it. Nt Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #70
your screen name is about a gun CreekDog Jun 2015 #72
NRA is anti-liberal and the organization has been particularly disgusting about Obama Johonny Jun 2015 #2
Its all about the 'business' of guns, elleng Jun 2015 #3
It's a conspiracy I tell you! TampaAnimusVortex Jun 2015 #4
I didn't call it a conspiracy, but nice try CreekDog Jun 2015 #14
Yep deathrind Jun 2015 #5
And DU is loaded with 'em. Call Me Wesley Jun 2015 #6
Gun love is ugly. hunter Jun 2015 #7
About the ugliest, most misbegotten "love" there is.... villager Jun 2015 #26
The only people I know who won't allow a discussion on guns is Gun Control Reform Activism group. Travis_0004 Jun 2015 #8
Drop the mic pintobean Jun 2015 #10
*thud* Lizzie Poppet Jun 2015 #11
That is a safe haven. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #15
that's a discussion forum for gun control advocacy CreekDog Jun 2015 #16
Bazinga Duckhunter935 Jun 2015 #18
by the way, it's funny you mention this, because it was gun advocates who CreekDog Jun 2015 #20
We just follow the SOP Duckhunter935 Jun 2015 #76
you speak for all gun advocates? CreekDog Jun 2015 #77
Of course not Duckhunter935 Jun 2015 #79
Bingo! nt Mojorabbit Jun 2015 #52
The GCRA Group allows gun humpers to post on DU, in the GC & RKBA Group. Electric Monk Jun 2015 #60
Um, GCRA is the Johnny-come-lately (and a decidedly less active group, at that) friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #78
Recycled cartoons at that Duckhunter935 Jun 2015 #80
How dare you! Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #67
Right - because gun manufacturers really give a shit about what an obscure web site thinks hack89 Jun 2015 #12
well I didn't say *one* website CreekDog Jun 2015 #17
ok. nt hack89 Jun 2015 #19
Is it too soon? Or too late? gratuitous Jun 2015 #13
I grieve for DU as well as for the victims families in Charleston... CTyankee Jun 2015 #21
You've got to be kidding. pintobean Jun 2015 #22
And that, is the unvarnished truth. beevul Jun 2015 #23
And here you are again... CTyankee Jun 2015 #24
Well, it's the same as "climate deniers" swarming out of the woodwork after each weather disaster villager Jun 2015 #27
well, that is a global catastrophe but this is a personal tragedy and I really feel CTyankee Jun 2015 #28
Of course not. But the need for apologetics is instantaneous with that bunch. villager Jun 2015 #30
stop it. stop it right now. Decency commands us to mourn the dead and comfort the CTyankee Jun 2015 #31
Yes. But I'm agreeing with you. I'm talking about the gun folks. villager Jun 2015 #35
I'm pretty upset right now...yeah, I get that...you nailed it "with blood still wet on CTyankee Jun 2015 #37
I couldn't believe they were doing the jr. high school "gunz is great!" snark routine *last night* villager Jun 2015 #39
I had a family member killed in gun violence so I know what happens to families in CTyankee Jun 2015 #41
I've known three people -- one man, one woman, one student villager Jun 2015 #43
I truly believe my niece's death due to gun violence killed my brother... CTyankee Jun 2015 #48
Oh God. I am so sorry, CTyankee.... villager Jun 2015 #50
sorry. this event brings it back to me... CTyankee Jun 2015 #51
that is an unfathomable loss CreekDog Jun 2015 #54
I must not have gotten the memo... beevul Jun 2015 #34
no,it's called "decent interval." The political arguments can come later... CTyankee Jun 2015 #38
Well, I haven't commented alt all, except... beevul Jun 2015 #40
well, then, join me in respectful silence and in our common humanity to mourn CTyankee Jun 2015 #45
Thats more or less what I've been doing all day. beevul Jun 2015 #47
OK. leave it at that, will you? Enough. CTyankee Jun 2015 #49
9 African Americans were killed by a white supremecist and you want us to be silent? CreekDog Jun 2015 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #66
Really? GGJohn Jun 2015 #61
I didn't and I don't blame anyone but the shooter for what happened. CTyankee Jun 2015 #63
Ok, that's more than fair. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #64
I agree with that sentiment CreekDog Jun 2015 #75
You mean people don't support governmental policy... krispos42 Jun 2015 #25
Can't you give it a rest, Krispos and let the mourners mourn? CTyankee Jun 2015 #29
Why don't you ask pintobean Jun 2015 #33
Again, the unvarnished truth. beevul Jun 2015 #36
Are you saying the same thing to the OPers in GD? krispos42 Jun 2015 #44
I've only been responding to posts about this issue. I started none and wouldn't. CTyankee Jun 2015 #46
I want gun humpers to be seen for what they really are: COWARDS Skittles Jun 2015 #62
They've also been vehemently lobbying to suppress any government research countryjake Jun 2015 #32
See, thats hard to buy... beevul Jun 2015 #42
The dumbest sort of lobbyists: they don't even get paid. alcibiades_mystery Jun 2015 #69
No matter how synthetic, hatred can never double for compassion. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #71
For most, progun talk is simply about maintaining a civil liberty that has seen many restrictions. aikoaiko Jun 2015 #73
One of the NRA talking assholes said it was the Rev-Senators fault for his own death. Rex Jun 2015 #74

Johonny

(20,854 posts)
2. NRA is anti-liberal and the organization has been particularly disgusting about Obama
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 04:45 PM
Jun 2015

it feeds a culture of hate. They are a hate organization pure and simple. The apologist posts today would be a laugh if their culture of hate wasn't so sad.

elleng

(130,989 posts)
3. Its all about the 'business' of guns,
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 04:48 PM
Jun 2015

and they've paid 'good' $ to brainwash those who are badly educated and subject to propaganda.

deathrind

(1,786 posts)
5. Yep
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 04:51 PM
Jun 2015

I have never advocated for the banning of guns altogether. A person should be able to hunt or sport shot all they like.

But I have advocated for reasonable control and requirements. Reasonable control and requirements being a ban on assault weapons and high cap mags. Recurring registration for firearms, safety courses and 100% background checks for all firearm sales...but even that type of language is not permitted.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
16. that's a discussion forum for gun control advocacy
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:45 PM
Jun 2015

there's already a forum where gun control threads can get junked up with NRA created memes and falsehoods, there should be one where that doesn't happen.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
18. Bazinga
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:46 PM
Jun 2015

That is a good one. I am sure the OP will post links to all of us firearms owners here opposed to training and reasonable regulations.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
20. by the way, it's funny you mention this, because it was gun advocates who
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:49 PM
Jun 2015

for a long time, attempted to shut down any discussion of guns *at all* in General Discussion.

it was rather obvious.

"no gunz, no gunz" in GD...

(what they didn't say: "because we're outnumbered in here&quot

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
79. Of course not
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 04:29 PM
Jun 2015

But I can see the locked posts in GD. Guess which side is posting them against the SOP and the admins wishes. Hint, it is not the RKBA side.

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
60. The GCRA Group allows gun humpers to post on DU, in the GC & RKBA Group.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 01:52 AM
Jun 2015

It really is quite funny how you guys obsess over the fact GCRA that even exists. It drives you nuts, and every time I see one of you whine about it existing, I smile

You're doing a fine job proving the OP's point, though:

Many don't even want you saying that guns are not the solution to violence.


Guns are not the solution to gun violence.



 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
78. Um, GCRA is the Johnny-come-lately (and a decidedly less active group, at that)
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 02:59 PM
Jun 2015

BTW, I see you only managed to scrape two cartoons. Things a little slow these days?

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
17. well I didn't say *one* website
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:46 PM
Jun 2015

and in fact, they do care about such discussions, if they occur on websites or in places with much readership.

or else they wouldn't be on Facebook and the like.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
13. Is it too soon? Or too late?
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:38 PM
Jun 2015

I'm sure we'll miss the Goldilocks Moment again. That time when it's just right to talk about the proliferation of guns in our society and its violent components. It just never quite seems to be the right time. It's "too soon" and we should give everyone a chance to grieve and heal a little bit. Or it's too late, and the teachable moment has passed. Or - and this is the case with disturbing frequency - another massacre has occurred and we have to start all over again.

The blood of the victims is still on the woodwork at Emanuel AME, and there are those for whom this is nothing but a political game, sport to be made of the dead and their grieving. It's a despicable display of inhumanity. There are others who see the discussion as a threat to their livelihood, because they make their living off the misery inflicted by gun violence. That's a despicable display of greed as well as inhumanity.

One thing's for sure: We'll keep seeing it happen as long as advocates for the firearms industry and the culture of violence that surrounds continue to dictate the norms of our society.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
21. I grieve for DU as well as for the victims families in Charleston...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 05:50 PM
Jun 2015

I am so disappointed in DU right now...those people are dead and the gun people here just want to defend their 2nd A rights? How about a little respect for the dead before such self righteous sanctimony? I don't think those families are thinking about their "concern" right about now.

This is unbecoming behavior...

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
22. You've got to be kidding.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:00 PM
Jun 2015

Gun grabber threads went up in GD before any of the bodies were cold. It's the same thing every time there's a mass shooting. Where are the pro gun threads?

The exploitation is unbecoming behavior.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
23. And that, is the unvarnished truth.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:41 PM
Jun 2015
Gun grabber threads went up in GD before any of the bodies were cold.


Yup, and its predictable as the sun rising in the east.

Like clockwork, every single time.
 

villager

(26,001 posts)
27. Well, it's the same as "climate deniers" swarming out of the woodwork after each weather disaster
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:13 PM
Jun 2015

...to tell you that climate change has nothing, ever, at all, to do with weather disasters!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
28. well, that is a global catastrophe but this is a personal tragedy and I really feel
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:19 PM
Jun 2015

that the gun folks are intruding on their personal grief with their sermons on guns. Is there no such thing as a "decent interval" any more? Do we honestly feel that the mourners want to hear about the gun owners defense of their 2nd A rights at this time in their lives? Really? Really?

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
30. Of course not. But the need for apologetics is instantaneous with that bunch.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:30 PM
Jun 2015

Perhaps out of some deep buried, never-to-be-acknowledged guilt, as they know that they've been advocates for the very policies making such tragedies not only more likely, but inevitable.

As, again, with climate deniers!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
31. stop it. stop it right now. Decency commands us to mourn the dead and comfort the
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:33 PM
Jun 2015

mourners! Enough!

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
35. Yes. But I'm agreeing with you. I'm talking about the gun folks.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:37 PM
Jun 2015

I was trying to comment on their need to instantly snark, use smilies, for Crissakes, with blood still wet on the floor, etc...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
37. I'm pretty upset right now...yeah, I get that...you nailed it "with blood still wet on
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:38 PM
Jun 2015

the floor."

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
39. I couldn't believe they were doing the jr. high school "gunz is great!" snark routine *last night*
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:41 PM
Jun 2015

They have no particular decency, in fact, seem to feel increasingly emboldened, after each of these tragedies with their oh-so-favorite implements.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
41. I had a family member killed in gun violence so I know what happens to families in
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jun 2015

this kind of grief. I've been there. It's tragedy unbelievably squared and worse. It is unsupportable by those who experience it. I can't explain it. I can only feel it. I wish I didn't.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
43. I've known three people -- one man, one woman, one student
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:01 PM
Jun 2015

First two were domestic violence, the last evidently a gang drive-by.

Yeah, generally the gleeful snarkers have never experienced such things themselves.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
48. I truly believe my niece's death due to gun violence killed my brother...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:08 PM
Jun 2015

he collapsed at his daughter's coffin at the funeral...went downhill from there...

Tragedy upon tragedy upon tragedy...

sorry, I'm undone tonight, truly...

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
50. Oh God. I am so sorry, CTyankee....
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:11 PM
Jun 2015

I can imagine not being able to recover from the deep shock of certain heartbreaks...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
51. sorry. this event brings it back to me...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:17 PM
Jun 2015

no need to go into it further. But this is why I am so deeply affected about the SC tragedy. Those poor families of the victims! I know a bit about what they are going thru, but of course I can never know the depth of their suffering...all I know is the feeling of affinity...

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
54. that is an unfathomable loss
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 11:59 PM
Jun 2015

but don't put guilt on us to get us to stop talking about this tragedy right now.

talking about it is not wrong.

talking about how to stop it is not wrong.

not now and not tomorrow and not next week.

i would not go to the funeral or the wake or a gathering and speak about something that was not welcome.

but this is the public square. just as sure as Rudy Giuliani is saying right now that we can't know what motivated the killer, we are here and everywhere to set the record straight.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
34. I must not have gotten the memo...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:36 PM
Jun 2015

Did it read something like this:

To whom it may concern,

Due to the recent tragedy, only those who are loyal and true to anti-gun ideology may speak today, or on this issue.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Is that about what you had in mind?




 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
40. Well, I haven't commented alt all, except...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:46 PM
Jun 2015

Well, I haven't commented alt all, except to respond to people on your side of the issue, who are studiously ignoring any notion of a decent interval, or comment to others about said studious avoidance.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
45. well, then, join me in respectful silence and in our common humanity to mourn
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:03 PM
Jun 2015

the dead and comfort their families.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
47. Thats more or less what I've been doing all day.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:07 PM
Jun 2015

I do reserve the right to respond to nonsense, and factual discrepancy, however.


CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
53. 9 African Americans were killed by a white supremecist and you want us to be silent?
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 11:56 PM
Jun 2015

I don't see Civil Rights Leaders calling for silence and I don't think you should imply that it's disrespectful if they don't remain silent after a tragedy like this.

We're trying to change crap like this, and staying silent hurts the Civil Rights movement.

Response to pintobean (Reply #22)

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
61. Really?
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 02:08 AM
Jun 2015

Anti gun threads were up before the full facts of the shooting were known, and you have the nerve to blame the pro 2A members?
Utterly amazing excrement.
Why don't you post a link to a pro 2A thread started since this horrific shooting.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
63. I didn't and I don't blame anyone but the shooter for what happened.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 05:42 AM
Jun 2015

I don't like 2nd A sermons right about now. That debate can happen. We need to be respectful and mourn the deaths.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
25. You mean people don't support governmental policy...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:08 PM
Jun 2015

... to make them socially inferior, social outcasts, politically incorrect, etc?

Shocking.

That is, in my opinion at least, the real point and purpose of most of the gun laws that are proposed. Useless except as some sort of multi-generational tool to shift society away from gun ownership.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
29. Can't you give it a rest, Krispos and let the mourners mourn?
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:22 PM
Jun 2015

Leave them alone. They have enough to deal with right now.

My heart is with them tonight and has been all day.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
33. Why don't you ask
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:35 PM
Jun 2015
both sides to give it a rest. The 2A supporters wouldn't be defending anything if the gun grabber threads didn't exist. Trying to pretend that only one side can morn is ridiculous.
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
36. Again, the unvarnished truth.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:38 PM
Jun 2015
The 2A supporters wouldn't be defending anything if the gun grabber threads didn't exist. Trying to pretend that only one side can morn is ridiculous.


Yup.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
46. I've only been responding to posts about this issue. I started none and wouldn't.
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 08:05 PM
Jun 2015

I'm in too much grief right now. Trying to work through it. It's hard...

countryjake

(8,554 posts)
32. They've also been vehemently lobbying to suppress any government research
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:35 PM
Jun 2015

on gun violence, but will then quickly throw the lack of that research into any and every discussion, demanding "statistics", "where's the peer-reviewed studies?", knowing damn well that the NRA has blocked such research every single time it's suggested by our lawmakers.

How the NRA wields its influence

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/09/us/nra-gun-research/index.html?iref=obinsite

~snip~

Since the 1990s, the powerful pro-gun NRA has targeted the heart of what most legislation is based on: studies about the effects of gun violence.

~snip~

The NRA says it is simply ensuring that taxpayer money isn't being used to promote a political agenda.

"If gun control groups ... (and) individuals want to further their research, we're not saying they shouldn't be able to do it," NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam told CNN. "We're just saying they shouldn't be using public funds to do it."

But public health experts say it's all part of an attempt by the NRA-led pro-gun lobby to hamstring lawmakers.

"If a bunch of people do research and generate solid evidence that suggests firearms policy should be reformed and either firearms or people who used them should be regulated in new ways, (if I'm a gun-rights advocate,) I'm not going to like that," said Dr. Garen Wintemute, head of the violence prevention research program at the University of California at Davis.

"So, I'll simply prevent the evidence from being collected in the first place. It's a brilliant strategy, and (the gun lobby) succeeded."
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
42. See, thats hard to buy...
Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:50 PM
Jun 2015

See, thats hard to buy, when those making and supporting such accusations regularly ignore government research that was done by the CDC as commissioned by President Obama:

The gun control debate is certainly worth reopening. But if we’re going to reopen it, let’s not just rethink the politics. Let’s take another look at the facts. Earlier this year, President Obama ordered the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to assess the existing research on gun violence and recommend future studies. That report, prepared by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council, is now complete. Its findings won’t entirely please the Obama administration or the NRA, but all of us should consider them. Here’s a list of the 10 most salient or surprising takeaways.

2. Most indices of crime and gun violence are getting better, not worse. “Overall crime rates have declined in the past decade, and violent crimes, including homicides specifically, have declined in the past 5 years,” the report notes. “Between 2005 and 2010, the percentage of firearm-related violent victimizations remained generally stable.” Meanwhile, “firearm-related death rates for youth ages 15 to 19 declined from 1994 to 2009.” Accidents are down, too: “Unintentional firearm-related deaths have steadily declined during the past century. The number of unintentional deaths due to firearm-related incidents accounted for less than 1 percent of all unintentional fatalities in 2010.”

5. Mass shootings aren’t the problem. “The number of public mass shootings of the type that occurred at Sandy Hook Elementary School accounted for a very small fraction of all firearm-related deaths,” says the report. “Since 1983 there have been 78 events in which 4 or more individuals were killed by a single perpetrator in 1 day in the United States, resulting in 547 victims and 476 injured persons.” Compare that with the 335,000 gun deaths between 2000 and 2010 alone.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.” But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, “because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.” Furthermore, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was 'used' by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html



aikoaiko

(34,173 posts)
73. For most, progun talk is simply about maintaining a civil liberty that has seen many restrictions.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 12:30 PM
Jun 2015

In modern times, the first big restriction was the 1934 National Firearms Act - with special registration of machine guns and or other guns in certain configurations. And then fairly constantly with the passing of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Some restrictions have been lifted int he last 20 years, but gun ownership is still way more restricted than it was prior to 1968.

There is a link to industry, of course. If the industry is restricted then its harder for the people to enjoy the liberty.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
74. One of the NRA talking assholes said it was the Rev-Senators fault for his own death.
Fri Jun 19, 2015, 12:31 PM
Jun 2015

IOW, some people like him are scumbags deluxe. Anyone here agree with him? Speak up, now is the time. Don't be shy.

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