So how the hell are we supposed to know?

[Atman]

"Church members at Emanuel AME were gathered for a prayer meeting when gunfire erupted in the 19th century building. A female survivor told family members that the gunman initially sat down in the church for a while before standing up and opening fire, according to Dot Scott, president of the Charleston NAACP.

The gunman reportedly told the woman that he was letting her live so she could tell everyone else what happened, Scott said.

Mullen confirmed that the shooter was in the church for almost an hour attending the prayer meeting with the group before shooting."

Open carry? Concealed carry? Say he had been open carry. Are we supposed to just sit there for an hour just because we're in church, and he has the "right" to carry? This would scare the piss out of me, and it apparently it SHOULD. Just like any of those guys walking the aisles of Target or Walmart with their weapons slung over their shoulders could be there with nefarious intentions, or just plain read to snap. As for the concealed carry people, so what? Roof apparently kept his intentions and his weapon concealed before standing up and opening fire. How would one have been able to remove a safely secured and holstered weapon in time to stop him, without sending even more bullets flying in a crowded room full of panicked people?

I'm not sure what my exact point is other than to try to help people understand why so many of us are opposed to open carry or sometimes even concealed carry. You say it is your right. I say it is my right to be reasonably safe in a public place, and some clown carrying a rifle over his shoulder in a department store does NOT make anyone feel safe except the guy showing off his firestick.

[daleanime]

1. K&R.....

[Hoyt]

2. The gun fanciers would have thrown fit if someone had asked him to leave because

of his carrying a gun. Gun rights and all , you lnow

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. No they wouldn't and you it because the gungeon endorses respecting private property rights.

[Hoyt]

14. Yeah, gungeoneers have supported shooting a kid rummaging through a trash can on gunner's property

Toters darn sure don't respect the 90+% of the public that would never dream of carrying a gun in the city.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. Changing subjects because you can't back up your rhetoric with facts.

[HERVEPA]

54. Why don't you gunners just go the fuck away for a while

[GGJohn]

56. Because you don't like what we have to say? eom.

[truebluegreen]

57. Yes.

[GGJohn]

58. Tough. eom.

[HERVEPA]

61. Because you just want your fucking guns and have zero empathy or common sense

about when to keep your mouth shut.

[GGJohn]

64. The same can be said of your comrades on this issue.

The first anti gun screed appeared on DU before the facts were even known in SC, so don't preach to me about when to keep my mouth shut.
Maybe you and your comrades should take your own advice.

[heaven05]

78. So what's to be done with the

Last edited Fri Jun 19, 2015, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

legion(s) of racist like this 21 year old with a legal weapon and the older ones with legal weapons? I have to arm myself right? And by the way, this racist murderer tell me that the next generation of racist is coming along, in his case quickly.

[GGJohn]

80. That's a tough one, being a racist is not illegal,

vile, but not illegal.
All I can come up with is to catch them young and hope to lead them down a different path, educate the hatred out of them.

What's your plan?

[heaven05]

82. if their parents and

peers are racist, how can they be led down any path but stormfront type groups, fox snooze or limbaughs? Education is fine in a society that is reasonable and able to reconcile it's hateful history. A kid educated by a confederate flag on a statehouse and revers that flag is not going to one day, because of some education say, I'm wrong in hating because of skin color, sexual orientation or whatever because when he get's around those he assumes loves him and is guiding him and if they, the parents, caregivers and peers are racist nothing will change that person. Evident by the continuing nature of racism in american culture. Racism is not illegal, true, america has proven that to the world time and again over generations.

There is no plan that will stop racism in general. I might be able to turn one around and he another and maybe in another 200 years racism will be lessened, it will never go away. I deal with it when every time it gets in my face, I do my best to speak up and slap it down with shame or action. They threaten, I threaten right back. That's how I have dealt with it and will continue to deal with it as I have for 50 years.

[GGJohn]

83. Thank you for the reasoned and thoughtful reply,

What you say is true, other than what I proposed, which you correctly point out is not really a solution, I'm stumped as to what can be done to lessen the hatred, short of banning hate speech, which is a no go because of the 1A.
I don't know, maybe other members have some viable solutions.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. No facts for the rhetoric so you have nothing left but to hopefully bully others.

I don't feel like being bullied and I'm not going away.

[GGJohn]

81. +1000. eom.

[hack89]

12. No. Property rights are paramount

but you knew that.

[Hoyt]

15. Yeah, right.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

84. Here you go. RKBA advocates siding with property owners --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172169345

[uponit7771]

3. Yeap, make it easier to kill people with guns is what they're doing with these laws

[jeff47]

8. Ok, let's pretend you're in this church.

You're sitting there. A guy walks in and sits down in the back. Doesn't do much for an hour. You hear a noise behind you as he gets up.

You think "Hey, I wonder why the facial expression of the person in front of me just changed. They seem to be scared and looking behind me." So you turn around in your seat and, oops, the bullet's already inside your skull.

We are the most armed first-world nation on the planet. If your theory about armed civilians preventing violent crime was true, we should be among the safest first-world nations on the planet. We aren't. Repeated experiments show that an armed person in the crowd does not react fast enough, nor accurately enough, to the sudden appearance of a shooter in order to prevent their shooting spree.

[G_j]

13. +1

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

19. +Brazilian

[erronis]

23. +1 : Perhaps if you're wearing body armor and are trained for instant response

But then you're probably not sitting in a church or a movie theater or a grade-school room.

Don't forget that Lanza's mother was a trained gun nut. It didn't help her stay alive.

[jeff47]

37. John Hinckley Jr. demonstrates that trained for instant response isn't even enough. (nt)

[truebluegreen]

59. +a zillion

[madokie]

4. I feel my right is to be able to come and go

without the fear of a crazy, whether a legal or illegal, gun carrier fucking things up. I have rights too you know. I know you know this Atman, I'm saying this to those who might not agree with me. Agrree or disagree I don't care just keep the guns out of my face away from my and my families bodies.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

20. People should keep their guns at home

Last edited Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Isn't what they are so concerned about defending against the anarchist hordes?

[madokie]

30. Fetishism

is more like it for many.

[jeff47]

5. They have action-movie-inspired or video-game-inspired fantasies where they save the day.

The fact that it doesn't work that way in the real world doesn't matter. They're Dirty Harry, or "Section" Mason, and they're gonna totally shoot those bad guys.

[arcane1]

6. Silly, Atman. If they're white, you're safe. If they're black, police will shoot them on sight.

So you're safe either way!

[brooklynite]

9. Actually he DOESN'T have the right to carry...

...he has the State-affirmed right to carry in general, but a Church is private property and can set it's own rules.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

36. Not to mention - I doubt he was concerned with the laws much regardless. /nt

[Romeo.lima333]

10. in an syg state open carry people can be shot out of fear for safety

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

24. This may be helpful to some...

?1402434095

[GGJohn]

48. That's pure unadulterated bullshit.

and if you ever tried that, odds are very good that you're going to be standing trial for murder.
Quit posting false info, it makes you look less than smart.

[Romeo.lima333]

49. im sure we'll get the chance to find out if that's true

odds are very good means mabye not

[GGJohn]

50. Maybe you should study up on the requirements for a successful SYG defense

in the states that allow for this before you post such nonsense.

[Travis_0004]

11. The church could have asked him to leave.

I don't know of any state that forces people to allow open carry on private property. I live in Ohio, and open carry is legal, even though ive never seen anybody open carry. If somebody is open carrying, you can ask them to leave. If they don't leave they can be arrested for trespassing.

[Hoyt]

18. Maybe they feel he's someone looking for help.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

26. Ask him to leave? Remember he's there for a purpose.

And he won't be leaving until he gets it done. Asking him to leave will just make the deaths happen sooner.

[Ilsa]

32. I thought the SC law permitted him to carry in a church.

My understanding was that there was nothing they could do about it if they had known.

[Travis_0004]

34. No.

South Carolina allows places to post a no concealed carry sign, as does just about every state. If somebody carrys anyway, they can be arrested.

[Travis_0004]

35. No.

South Carolina allows places to post a no concealed carry sign, as does just about every state. If somebody carrys anyway, they can be arrested.

A lot of states allow carry in church, but allow that individual state to ban concealed carry, which I think is a good policy. I am very pro gun, but concealed carry laws should never trump property rights.

[pnwmom]

42. How would anyone know if someone was illegally concealing a weapon until it was too late?

A Church or any public or private building should be able to ban all guns, whether concealed or openly carried.

[GGJohn]

51. Here's the thing,

they can.

[jeff47]

38. He wasn't open-carrying. There's security camera footage of him entering the church. (nt)

[Lars39]

39. They may not have known he had a gun...I noticed a squarish fannypack one him in the pic

of him opening the door.

[kcr]

73. It's only a matter of time

That's what laws like guns in parking lots in the workplace and guns in parks are for. Those were pushed to get the foot in the door so passing the laws forcing people to allow open cary will pass like a breeze.

[malaise]

17. Send a note to Governor Nikki

She passed open carry and flies the confederate flag.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Fuck open carry. And fuck concealed carry.

In my very humble opinion.

[KitSileya]

47. I don't agree with you on much, Nye, but on this, you are absolutely 100% correct.

And you don't even have to be humble about your opinion.

It is absolutely horrific that such a large part of Americans think their guns are more important than people. That in fact, a significant group on a progressive board actually think that their right to own weapons is more important than people's right to feel safe. It is absolutely contemptible of them, and I adamantly believe that you can never be a progressive and be believe in people's right to own guns. It doesn't matter what you believe in when it comes to marriage equality, economic redistribution, or restrictions on corporate power - if you are not willing to give up your guns, and willing to force others to give up their guns in order to make people a little bit safer, you are not a progressive. Period.

[GGJohn]

52. Hmmm.

President Obama would be surprised to learn he's not progressive, after all, he's said that the 2A confers an individual right to own a firearm.

[truebluegreen]

63. You been under a rock? President Obama isn't a progressive.

[KitSileya]

68. He isn't a progressive, and neither are you.

Progressives actually care about society and are willing to sacrifice so that all have it better, for example by paying taxes so that everyone gets health care, or by giving up murder tools so that everyone are safer.

[GGJohn]

69. Progressives also care about rights,

of which firearm ownership is, we care about ALL rights, not just the ones we like.
So you're the one who's not progressive, not me.

[KitSileya]

71. Bullshit.

The second amendment is as wrong as the original right to own other human beings. I hope I will live long enough to see it repealed. If it is not repealed, the US will never be a civilized country, something it has yet to achieve because of the second amendment, which has kept it away from being civilized exactly because citizens can terrorize other citizen because of gun ownership.

[GGJohn]

74. I disagree about the 2A as do the majority of your fellow Americans.

But if it keeps you all warm and fuzzy at night, just keep believing what you're posting.
Meanwhile, I'll keep my firearms and keep exercising my 2A right to keep and bear arms.
Have to go do my farm chores, have a good day.

[KitSileya]

76. You do that.

I don't live in the US by choice, and so the risk is yours. It is your country whose destruction you are supporting, your fellow citizens who you'd rather live in fear than give up your murder toys. I find it very contemptible.

[Atman]

77. ^^ Almost PERFECT.

I say "almost" because I don't believe it is even wrong...it is grossly misinterpreted. This misinterpretation comes in part comes in part due to punctuation changes among the several versions of the initially proposed amendment. A lot of the problem comes from the differences between the writing and our current day -- I don't see anything in the Constitution about nuclear arms, because no one in that day and age could have even imagined such an "arm" which any second amendment enthusiast must agree is constitutionally protected. Right? Where does 2A say you don't have the right to bear nuclear arms? But, apparently, you had no problem accepting "well regulated" input on those weapons. It's maddening. Absolutely maddening. As a student of journalism and writing, it is very clear to me that the writing of 2A is very sloppy due to punctuation. At the same time very clear. What the hell do people think is a "well regulated militia?" And why aren't they willing to accept ANY regulations? The very amendment they worship accepts regulation, but they deny that is what the word "regulation" means.

It has nothing to do with the constitution, and I think Roof just demonstrated that. It is about POWER. You have this immense power concealed under your coat, or maybe carried openly in Walmart. It is POWER. Power which may not be available to you in your otherwise miserable life (I'm not applying that statement to ALL gun owners!). So what is the point of owning a gun, having this much POWER, if all you can do is shoot old coke bottles. Hell, me and a couple of friends used to go out into the fields with a box full of plastic models we'd built -- cars, lunar landers, action figures, whatever -- and get great pleasure out of blowing them to smithereens with a 22. I don't hate guns. I hate stupidity. I hate the people who refuse to accept that we've crossed a bridge too far. Our society has become a curiosity, largely due to our gun-lust. I'm not so sure we're all the civilized anymore. We seem to be going backwards.

[GGJohn]

53. ...

It is absolutely contemptible of them, and I adamantly believe that you can never be a progressive and be believe in people's right to own guns. It doesn't matter what you believe in when it comes to marriage equality, economic redistribution, or restrictions on corporate power - if you are not willing to give up your guns, and willing to force others to give up their guns in order to make people a little bit safer, you are not a progressive. Period.

What a load of excrement

[HERVEPA]

55. Yes. a load of excrement

[GGJohn]

60. Are we agreeing again?

I can't keep up, please make up your mind.

[HERVEPA]

62. Please re-ask question in English language

[GGJohn]

65. Fixed. eom.

[MisterP]

22. a country with a gun on every streetcorner isn't saving itself from a police state,

it's reinforcing it

[hobbit709]

25. Anyone that needs to parade around openly carrying their weapons has issues.

I know quite a few people with guns, some with quite a few.
NOT A ONE feels the need to strut around with said guns.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

27. "Normal" people have consideration of other people and the way they affect them.

These people are NOT normal.

[hobbit709]

28. Like I said "issues"

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

40. Issues is a nice term.

[SoapBox]

29. Yesterday talked with a couple that lives in Atlanta...

They said they feel totally unsafe in the Atlanta Airport, now that the nutters can pack their weapons into even the airport (gee, the weapons aren't allowed through TSA...yet).

They said they collect their luggage ASAP before someone starts shooting or drops a gun and it goes off.

America is a fuck'n mess with guns.

[Calista241]

46. Considering there has never been a shooting at Hartsfield-Jackson Int'l airport

I think their fears are a little unfounded. I fly out of there every week, and I've never seen a person carrying a pistol or rifle that wasn't a cop or a tsa agent.

I mean, I know theoretically it can happen, but I've never seen it, and I've spent hundreds of hours in that building.

[valerief]

31. Ammosexual whore legislators don't give a shit about us in Ammomerica. nt

[Jamastiene]

33. Too bad so many of the pro gun types don't even like to hear questions.

I don't get why anyone feels the need to carry a gun into a church. It just seems wrong to me. That's just my take on it. More guns means more shooting and less shooting, actually no shooting in church, seems the better way to go.

[Fairgo]

43. Pathological society

What hides behind every argument for walking armed through the Agora is fear. One's own, or one's desire to be feared. Fear is the death of community. Gun worship is a poison...open carry or concealed its a talisman that attracts and multiplies the fear it promises to abate. Consider what it means to live in a world where the discussion has devolved to a negotiation of small islands of sanctuary. We are awash in fear, isolated and terrorised by our own dark collective fantasy, hiding behind a cardboard cut out of John Wayne, shooting holes in our shadows.

[Atman]

45. ^^ Great post!

[truebluegreen]

66. ^this^

[Vinca]

44. Concealed, open . . . does it matter?

I think we should repeal the 2nd amendment. Fire away, gun lovers. Pun intended.

[yeoman6987]

75. And how is that going to happen?

Give me the plan of revoking the 2nd Anendment. I don't think it is possible.

[Vinca]

79. It's not going to happen. It's wishful thinking.

I might as well dream big since even small steps never happen. We're like hamsters on a wheel going around and around. There's a shooting, we cry, then we yell, then we demonstrate, then we call our legislators, then time passes. Nothing happens. And nothing happens. And then there's another shooting. We cry . . .

[Sheldon Cooper]

67. We're not supposed to know, and that's part of the fun for these gun humpers.

They have an overwhelming need to feel big and powerful and have absolutely no other way to accomplish that than to openly display their "weaponry" and terrorize the good people who are trying to go about their average day at Target or Walmart or where ever. It's a sad commentary on our society, and something that we should have grown out of by now. But...the scared little children are in charge, it seems.

I'm in PA and I don't see these morons around anywhere, but you can be sure that the instant I see one of those goons stroll into Giant Eagle, I'm out the door and on the phone to 911 to report an armed gunman. Because you simply *can't* know that they're 'safe'. You cannot know, and I'm taking no chances.

[alc]

72. what law or surveillance would stop illegal concealed carry?

Realistically, this type of thing has happened about once per year over 30+ years (if I remember the stats right). We're trying to find a way to stop 1 person per year out of 300 million people when we focus on these incidents. Other types of gun deaths happen WAY more often. Thinking about those other types of gun deaths for both laws and personal safety makes more sense. It's great if laws stopping 100s or 1000s of deaths also stop this type of incident but there's a good chance they won't.

Is there a law that would make you feel safe everywhere? So you'd know that even if a stranger there intends on killing people he is following the law against concealed carry so he can't kill with a gun (and hasn't chosen some other weapon like a bomb or truck).

The way I see it, concealed carry isn't an issue. If you don't want guns you need to round up all guns and outlaw sales with some REAL HARSH punishments. Outlawing concealed carry just isn't going to help in many cases where someone intends to break other laws. I guess we could have TSA-type security at every entrance to anywhere you want to go (store/church/bank/park/etc). But even then a lot of people will have to walk to the entrance and be exposed.