Guns have only one purpose. Death

[Renew Deal]

This is related to the Charleston shooting.

There's not much dispute over the purpose of guns. They are for death and destruction. Whether it's for crime, self defense, or hunting, the outcome is the same.

This country needs to get serious about gun control. We are permitting people to purchase, obtain, and openly carry weapons that are a danger to us all.

[LittleBlue]

1. A homicidal maniac like the one in Charleston

is unlikely to be deterred by gun laws.

This wasn't a random shooting. He targeted a black church and then called the police to claim he planted bombs. He knew exactly when worshippers would be there late at night. This is likely a racist terrorist act

[Renew Deal]

2. Blah blah blah

The laws are making guns available, not the other way around.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Are the laws also making bombs available?

[Renew Deal]

6. Show me where one can buy bombs.

[GGJohn]

19. Anyone with basic skills can easily assemble one,

Last edited Thu Jun 18, 2015, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

a pipe bomb is one of the easiest to make, you can get everything you need for one at a Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.

[Camelback]

23. Check with the people killed and maimed at the Boston Marathon

Nevermind , you can prepare food in a pressure cooker.

What was I thinking.

[Renew Deal]

24. So your point is that there isn't a place to buy them.

[Camelback]

27. Exactly, they're illegal and you can't buy one

So they obviously don't exist.

My mistake.

No arguing with your superior logic.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. That's my point. It's illegal to own bombs. And yet.

[Renew Deal]

30. And yet they are hardly ever used in a crime.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Except when they are.

[whopis01]

87. Do you believe

that if bombs were legal to buy and posses and sold in stores, that there would be more or less incidents of violence using bombs?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

89. For home defense? That would be, shall we say, *interesting* to watch.

There was an incident some years ago in Colorado Springs, CO where a man opened fire on the congregation with the intent of killing as many people as possible. He killed two or three before a congregant produced her weapon, returned fire and killed the shooter.

[whopis01]

115. Do you believe

that if bombs were legal to buy and posses and sold in stores, that there would be more or less incidents of violence using bombs?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

116. People seeking to defend themselves don't employ bombs. It's not practical

in strictly self-interested terms. But people do use handguns and rifles defensively hundreds of thousands of times each year.

However, in a historical note: When the 2A was written there were no prohibitions to owning cannons. Even today it is legal to own artillery, tanks etc. Only the explosive ammunition is regulated and that entails federal licensing -- but it is legal.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Be glad. Single biggest school murder in U.S. History. Not something you

Want repeat occurrences of.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. You can't. But the kids at Columbine planted some in cars to greet first responders.

They also used pipe bombs inside the school.

Fortunately for everyone, the timers on the bombs in the parking lot fizzled. Still used bombs inside th school though.


The worst mass murder in any school in the U.S. Was not Newtown. It wasn't committed with a gun. It was done with explosives by some jackwagon that was pissed off about paying taxes. He'd have been in the tea party if it happened now.

You don't need a bomb store. People can make them.
And while I DO share your concern about the proliferation of firearms to people who have NO FUCKING BUSINESS having them, I would also point out that today, more than 90 million gun owners, in possession of more than 300 million guns, didn't go on a murderous and apparently in this case, racist rampage. One should keep that in mind when evaluating what a thing is 'for' given how incredibly little they are actually used for that purpose.


But, most likely we are on the same team here. Creatures that commit acts like this shooting never pop up overnight, there are warnings and opportunities that are often missed. I want to know what really happened in the events leading up to this shootings, and what we can learn to possibly prevent similar in the future.

[Locrian]

88. hey!

Hey that's not fair bringing facts to a gun fight!

[LittleBlue]

4. The law making guns available is the 2nd Amendment

Not sure how we're going to change that

[Renew Deal]

8. Not exactly

And the 2nd Amendment doesn't restrict restrictions.

[former9thward]

119. It restricts the type of restrictions you would impose.

[onehandle]

15. Time, population growth, and bluification of the country.

Tick-tock, gun nuts.

[LittleBlue]

20. Public opinion is going the other way.

According to a new poll, there has been a major public opinion shift on the rights of gun owners vs. gun control. The poll, conducted by Pew Research Center, found the following somewhat surprising results:

While support for gun control once reached 66 percent, it has dropped to 46 percent while support for gun rights has jumped 52 percent, the highest ever in the past 25 years.

We are at a moment when most Americans believe crime rates are rising and when most believe gun ownership – not gun control – makes people safer
Pew suggests the dramatic shift in support for gun rights may be tied to public perception of an increase in crime rates. By more than double, Americans believe owning a gun is the best way to protect against crime, 63 percent to 30 percent.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/04/301406-new-poll-shows-major-shift-in-how-americans-view-the-2nd-amendment-and-gun-control/

Tick tock?

[alp227]

68. IJ Review = right wing site nt

[GGJohn]

22. Sorry onehandle,

but the trend is headed in the opposite direction.
Tick-tock.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. I was going to say something snarky to bolster your point.

However, this is not a happy occasion, and the situation is still evolving, so I'll table that for now.

[GGJohn]

51. Probably a good idea. eom.

[malaise]

65. That simple n/t

[Logical]

5. Nothing will prevent a nut from killing people. And don't suggest.....

Banning all of the guns, because even liberal politicians are not in favor of that .

[Renew Deal]

7. I don't care what politicians are in favor of.

And I don't suggest banning them all. That's not necessary. But tighter controls over purchases, transfers, licensing, etc are needed.

Some people see this picture and get excited about "freedom." I see third world lunatics that are a threat to civilized people.

[Logical]

11. The people in that picture are idiots. I would ban open carry tomorrow....

But what I'm saying is there's no way to stop one loan nut. Most mass shooters obtained the gun legally .

[Renew Deal]

14. "Most mass shooters obtained the gun legally"

That's my point

[Logical]

16. How are you going to stop someone from obtaining a gun if....

They have no violent crime past or mental condition ?

[Renew Deal]

21. Registration, licensing, background checks, and all sales run through "the system."

Reduce our exposure.

[GGJohn]

72. You think criminals will care about unregistered firearms?

Registration is a non starter for me, and apparently, the ACLU also.

[GGJohn]

76. I'll agree that there should be severe legal consequences for leaving a firearm unattended

near a child, but, as I said, registration is a non starter for me.
How is failing to register a firearm irresponsible gun use?

[yeoman6987]

85. Aren't prisons overcrowded already?

[AtheistCrusader]

52. All of the highest profile mass shootings in recent memory did that.

Newtown. Aurora. Giffords.

All legally purchased through dealers with background checks.

I'm ok with UBC's, personally, but it's a politically costly move, and I think you want the best bang for your buck here.

Honestly, registration is the one of these that we aren't doing now.

[Logical]

96. And like I said, most mass murders would still of obtained a gun. nt

[C Moon]

66. What a joke. They look at those morons.

[msongs]

9. 2A says "arms" not guns. get your bazookas and rocket launchers ready nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. Cannons were not restricted in those days. So the "they couldn't have anticipated" argument

doesn't seem valid.

[Ghost in the Machine]

34. "bazookas and rocket launchers" are "Light" and "Heavy" Artillery, not "arms"... and are

restricted to use by the Military... but I think you already knew that...

Peace,

Ghost

[madville]

10. My guns kill many other things and not people

Whitetail Deer, Wild Hogs, Wild Turkeys, Ducks, Dove, Quail, Squirrels, Raccoons, etc. All of which I clean and eat as protein sources that aren't generally raised on antibiotics and steroids.

I also archery hunt as well but firearms are way more efficient.

[Renew Deal]

12. You're right

You posted what I meant to say.

[madville]

17. So you edit the OP title

Just for context:

Renew Deal
0. Guns have only one purpose. Killing people.

[Renew Deal]

18. Yes

[mythology]

112. But it's still not accurate

Guns have other uses. Target shooting is a thing as are collectors.

I would personally make it substantially harder to get guns because the cost of them being used to kill people is so high and is far easier to use to kill than most gun owners are willing to admit. But it's not accurate to say the only use for a gun is to kill.

[Travis_0004]

13. My guns must be defective

Ive used them in competition, so they have at least two purposes

[madville]

25. A third legitimate purpose is self defense

I have a license and carry a Kahr CW9 with me everyday. It's my favorite concealed carry handgun, my backup is a S&W 637 .38 I will also take along in an ankle holster if I go into Miami occasionally.

[LeFleur1]

33. It Is Difficult

to understand what the problem is with background checks, licensing, lessons, tests for ownership of guns.

It seems it is more important to some to allow the killings of innocent people than to have stronger laws in order to legally own a gun.
Yes, some crooks would get guns, just as some crooks rob, beat up others, commit fraud, drive drunk, and do other unlawful things, but we still have laws against those things, and those laws make us safer. For example, A person cannot legally drive a car...made for transportation, not to kill...unless they have taken a driving test and have insurance.

What is the big deal against laws that would most likely make our people and our children safer? I don't believe for a moment that the second amendment meant that the goofiest, or most mentally unstable, violent people in America with the worst judgement ever or those with no conscience should be allowed to pack a gun wherever they go.

[Travis_0004]

36. I would assume becase some states fuck up the process so bad, there is push back for any change.

A lot of people who would rather ban all guns so they make the approval process as complicated, and expensive as possible, so there is push back against any changes.

In New York city it cost 340 dollars for a handgun application, and 100 dollars for fingerprints. Why so much? Does it take 8 hours to process one application. The permit process takes 6 months or more. Why the long wait?

With laws like this, I can understand why some people have the mentality not to give an inch.

[A HERETIC I AM]

92. So, out of curiosity, who the hell have you pissed off that you walk aroud in fear of getting shot?

Seriously?

Who are you that lives in such a state of mind? Why do you feel people are out to shoot you?

Oh, and best of fucking luck getting your CW9 or your lil' pistol off your ankle in time to do anything with them.

Repeated tests have shown that the average concealed carry permit holder is no better in getting a gun out, properly aiming and actually hitting what they are aiming at in a panic situation than a child is with a squirt gun. For that matter, neither are trained Police who go to the range once a week. Barely better, anyway.

Best of luck in your endeavors.

And FWIW, I own my fathers CIA Issued S&W .38 Special Service Revolver, so I am not anti-gun. To paraphrase comedian Jim Jeffries, I am just anti bullshit and piss poor arguments.

I just see no point at all in living my life in such a state of fear that I feel compelled to carry the damned thing around with me.

[AtheistCrusader]

97. There are no trained police that go to the range once a week.

MAYBE some swat teams. Maybe. Not bloody likely. There is interesting shots per incident data and bystanders hit data that shows a difference between joe home user the concealed carrier and a police officer, but that's not even really an issue. A bigger issue is simply taking away control of a situation by firing back. That's when most active shooters kill themselves, and the rest usually stop injuring bystanders at that point. An example, The Tyler Tx courthouse shootings, or Maldonado at the Tacoma Mall shooting.

Neither guy that intervened did super good really, one died and the other is paralyzed, but they clearly delayed the shooters, and changed the outcome for the better.

The CPL issue isn't even really germane to the problem, as someone intent on murder doesn't really give two shits if they are committing a misdemeanor by having a gun on them without a license.

[Renew Deal]

28. That's just practice for shooting living things.

Like the 9/11 terrorists going to flight school.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. You're saying he's practicing to kill? Maybe you need a nap.

[villager]

35. absolutely *zero* difference between gun violence apologists and climate deniers at this point

None whatsoever, and both groups are deserving of our scorn and ridicule.

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. "(S)corn and ridicule" has gotten results for gun control advocates. Bad ones

What makes you think that your culture war will fare better than any other?

[villager]

49. you're the one fighting the culture war, my friend. You're a good person

Your other posts testify to that.

But you're adamantly wrong on this one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. A prominent antigun DUer disagrees: "You're on the wrong side of the culture war", quoth he

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=168985

It's refreshing to see one of you lot finally admit it

You, personally, may not believe that you and your allies are engaged in a culture war-
but you are. As GGJohn said upthread, "VPC and NRA are full of shit equally" and
I can't disagree...

[villager]

59. I'm confused as to where your positions on gun proliferation differ from the NRA's.

Certainly agree they're full of shit, though.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. The NRA is virulently opposed to universal background checks. I support UBCs...

...and think that the background check system should be available to private sellers.

The NRA won't even support that step, as it would take business away from Federally
licensed gun dealers who supply a lot of $ to the NRA.

[villager]

67. Well, we can certainly agree on that step. While we mourn the 9 mowed down in mere seconds...

... by war weapons loosed on our streets...

[GGJohn]

69. What kind of weapon was it?

I haven't seen anything describing the type of weapon used.

[villager]

71. Rest assured it was not ol' granddad's old-timey Winchester.

n/t

[GGJohn]

75. I can shoot my Winchester lever action .30/30

almost as fast as I can shoot my AR-15, or my AK-47 clone, neither of which is a war weapon.

[villager]

77. And I'm sure you're proud of that fact. I'm also sure the weapon in question won't be one.

And will be a war weapon that you and others like to see easily available to all.

[GGJohn]

79. There are very few full auto weapons in civilian hands,

most what you call "war weapons" are semi auto rifles, one pull of the trigger=1 round sent down range, my "war weapons" operate the same exact way my semi auto .22 operates, so is my .22 a "war weapon" also?

[villager]

81. Please, rush down to Charleston and give them your lesson in semantics...

...while they are still mopping blood off the walls.

[GGJohn]

83. Appeal to emotion?

Why would I do that?

[villager]

84. Well, some of us still have emotions, thankfully. For more than our firearms, I mean.

n/t

[Herman4747]

98. What the Hell do you do with an "AK-47 clone"?

...on second thought, I don't want to know.
You would rather spend money on such a thing rather than spend it instead on some poor human. Yeah, you got your priorities right.
Be sure to give your AK-47 and your AR-15 a goodnight kiss, before going to sleep tonight.

[GGJohn]

99. I target shoot with it, it's relaxing to me,

and how I spend my earned money is of no concern to you.
Why would I kiss a hunk of metal, wood and plastic?
That seems kinda weird.

[Herman4747]

104. Sound of Guns Firing is Relaxing, huh?

You do pick up every single bullet afterward, right? Wouldn't want any further environmental degradation.

[GGJohn]

113. It's on my property.

And yes, it relaxes me after a hard day of farming.

[Herman4747]

114. You're not going to live forever, buddy

Are you going to pick up all the bullets, are you instead going to force someone else to clean up the mess you left?

[GGJohn]

117. When did I say that I don't police up my property?

Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions?

[friendly_iconoclast]

82. Rest assured that wasn't posted with 'ol' granddad's old-timey typewriter'

n/t

[Hulk]

37. Guns rarely used for self-defense: article from Yahoo page.

Washington (AFP) - Contrary to what the gun lobby argues, personal firearms in the United States are rarely used for self-defense, a gun control advocacy group said Wednesday.

In an analysis of FBI and other federal government data, the non-profit Violence Policy Center said Americans are far more likely to hurt themselves or others when handling a lethal weapon.

In 2012, it said, only 259 "justifiable homicides" involving a private citizen were reported, compared to 8,342 criminal homicides committed with a gun.

Put another way, for every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. And that does not take into account "tens of thousands" of gun-related suicides and unintentional shootings.

The influential National Rifle Association contends that "guns are necessary for self-defence," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.

"But this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact," he said in a statement.

"In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense."

On its website, the NRA carries a running list of incidents in which it says firearms were successfully used in self-defense -- in one case against a house intruder crawling through a doggie door in Texas, in another case against a "rabid fox" in Massachusetts.

[GGJohn]

39. VPC is full of shit,

a DGU doesn't only consist of justifiable homicides, a DGU also consists of just drawing the weapon to scare an assailant away, or hold them for LE.
There are hundreds of thousands of DGU's a year and anything coming out of the VPC, especially Josh Sugarmann, should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

[Hoyt]

42. Gotta protect those gunz that fill up your 3+ gun vaults. VPC is no more full of it

than the NRA, and non-members who support/promote gunz.

[GGJohn]

44. VPC and NRA are full of shit equally,

they both lie to further their goals.

[beevul]

86. Outdated information.

“Defensive uses of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996, Kleck 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun use by victims is at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to radically lower estimates of only 108,000 annual defense if use is based on the national crime victimization survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use. (CDC report, pg 15)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/17/1238623/-Defensive-Gun-Use-The-CDC-Report-on-Gun-Violence

[SoapBox]

38. I fully agree with your OP.

Period.

[Lizzie Poppet]

47. "There's not much dispute over the purpose of guns."

Um...yes there is. Even here, in a community that's pretty far removed from mainstream American thought on this matter, that point is under dispute.

PS: I'm an active, rather serious target shooter. My competition guns are virtually certain never to harm a living thing, and the "destruction" they do is limited to paper targets. My two self-defense pistols are slightly more likely to ever do harm to anyone, but the probability is still very small. I don't hunt, and I certainly don't commit violent crimes. I have a big, sturdy gun safe. It's hard to fathom just how my guns are "a danger to us all." And I'm hardly unique in this...

[Hoyt]

53. But you promote gunz. That saddles us with the Zimmermans, Dunn's, Charleston shooter, etc.

Gunz -- like pollution, racism, etc. -- are not good for society. Yet you guys promote them.

If your hobby were pouring oil into rivers, you think that should be protected?

[GGJohn]

54. But you promote gunz. That saddles us with the Zimmermans, Dunn's, Charleston shooter, etc.

That's got to be the most dumbest post today.

Gunz -- like pollution, racism, etc. -- are not good for society. Yet you guys promote them.

I beg to differ sir, my guns help the more needy of our society by providing meat to them that they can't otherwise afford.

[Hoyt]

56. Yeah GG, you have 3 vaults full of gunz to feed the poor. LMAO. I have no issue with someone

with a hunting rifle at home to shoot food for the family. But that's not your game.

[GGJohn]

57. Yeah Hoyt, you have no idea what is in my safes,

and you have no idea what my game is.
And I'm getting ready to add a 4th safe.

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. "But that's not your game." So what *is* his "game", o Wise One?

And while we're at it, in which state(s) do you hold a license to practice telepsychology?

[Hoyt]

61. As a gun fancier, where are you a judge, jury, Jesus, and executioner?

[GGJohn]

63. You said gun fancier.

Never happened to me except in the military, but if someone is coming at me with ill intent, then I become judge, DA, jury, and if necessary, executioner.
Jesus? Not so much.

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. What does that even mean? I own no guns...

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. Fine talk from someone who advocates vigilantism:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x471849#471995

Further, every citizen should report anyone carrying a gun in public -- Maybe even hold them until police arrive. You just never know when the gunner is a criminal, has bad intentions, or just walked off their compound with a plan to harm innocent people.

[GGJohn]

78. He said that?

[friendly_iconoclast]

80. Yup- and then tried to walk it back

Read down the whole subthread at that link, and many, many things will
become clear...

[Lizzie Poppet]

100. Sorry, I don't accept your premise.

That guns (note grownup spelling...) are "not good for society" is your opinion. It's not mine. Sorry, but that kinda brings the conversation to a screeching halt. Which saves me from trying to stop laughing long enough to dismantle that ghastly analogy...

[Hoyt]

105. I bet, you can't live, or walk down the street, without a gun.

[Lizzie Poppet]

108. A bet you'd lose...but of no relevance to the topic.

I knew I could count on you to flail away into irrelevancies and personal attacks.

Never change, Hoyt...never change.

[madokie]

60. I agree

Its way past time we get this scourge under control. It looks to me like the rich want to cause as much turmoil so that maybe the people will kill a bunch of each other off so they're won't be so many people living in 'their' world. Bastid the whole bunch of them.

I'm not sure I've read about this last shooting yet, I'll find out as I finish reading this thread.
thanks

[ileus]

90. Or in the case of my SD firearms protect/save.

but maybe that's just my self defense firearms. I didn't select them for their "death" abilities, but instead to protect my loved ones and myself. Safety first I always say.


The other three purposes of firearms I own are general target shooting, competition, and hunting.

[Freddie Stubbs]

91. For some reason none of mine have ever caused any death

[A HERETIC I AM]

93. I'll just leave this here. Take 15 minutes and listen to Aussie comedian Jim Jeffries

Oh...I forgot...I'm dealing with a sort of "New" DU crowd, so....

*#*# WARNING! POTENTIALLY OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE AHEAD! IF YOUR PRECIOUS EARS CAN'T HANDLE NAUGHTY WORDS, COME NO FURTHER!*#*#*#

[progressoid]

110. +1

[JustAnotherGen]

94. Right after we get our racists under control n/t

[DrDan]

95. yep - been saying the same thing for years

the predicted response is always something about target shooting - which is nothing than attempting to get a tad bit better in the gun's true purpose

[Matrosov]

101. Let's see how many RW trolls come out of the woodwork n/t

[GGJohn]

103. Really? What RW trolls would that be?

Those of us that support the 2A?

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Any of us with a neutral to positive disposition on firearms I imagine.

[PowerToThePeople]

102. DUrec. n/t

[glinda]

106. Kurt Vonnegut thought that.

[L0oniX]

107. Bad cops who shoot unarmed people agree.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

109. Yup. Why we need to disarm the police too. nt

[Throd]

118. That is why I own one.

If someone breaks into my home and tries to harm my family I will shoot them with it.