Can Hillary match Bernie’s fans? On the campaign trail, there's a contrast in styles...

[KoKo]

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 02:11 PM - Edit history (2)

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On the campaign trail, there's a contrast in styles — and some reasons for Clinton to be concerned.



DES MOINES, Iowa — From the street, the only evidence that a presidential candidate was in town was a sidewalk emblazoned with chalk: “Bernie —>.” But inside the Drake University arena, on a stage more accustomed to string quartets and flute recitals, Bernie Sanders was rocking the house.

Attendees crammed the 775-seat Sheslow Auditorium here Friday, spilling into the aisles and clogging the balcony. The slightest crescendo in Sanders’ pitch — a call to address climate change, a plea for single-payer health care — brought them to their feet for a standing ovation.

“Sometimes our campaign has been referred to as a fringe campaign,” boomed the 73-year-old Vermont senator, leaning in a little too close to the mic. “Well, if this is fringe, I would hate to see mainstream!”

It’s like a bad movie for Hillary Clinton, the grass-roots fervor for her rival underscoring the trouble she’s had connecting with her party’s base. Clinton’s campaign is battling the perception of an enthusiasm gap, fueled partly by concerns that she’s out of sync with the newly aggressive liberal wing of the Democratic Party. How deep that chasm is was hard to discern. As she crisscrossed Iowa all weekend — and moved on to New Hampshire on Monday — her events were more heavily orchestrated, high on stagecraft, light on ad-libbing. It all raises questions about just how deep enthusiasm for her candidacy runs.

----snip---

Sanders can’t match Clinton’s reach, but he seems to relish retail politicking and the give-and-take of public appearances — never core Clinton strengths. Each of his events ended with relatively lengthy Q&A sessions with supporters, even the occasional tough question — such as one challenging his stance in favor of GMO labeling for foods.

He told supporters Saturday that he plans to go up with TV ads soon and, in a brief interview, noted that it wouldn’t take $2 billion — a number that has, at times, been attached to the Clinton campaign’s potential haul — to compete in Iowa.

Clinton allies say they’re not surprised Iowans are flirting with alternatives.

“I have always expected we would have a competitive caucus. Democrats love a fight and love underdogs,” said Jerry Crawford, a veteran Iowa Democratic strategist who’s aligned with the Clinton camp. “That said, Hillary is campaigning like an underdog.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-2016-fans-119035.html?hp=r2_4

[cali]

1. "frenzied fans" rather than "enthusiastic supporters" way to minimize

and spit contempt at Sanders' supporters and Sanders himself.

[Art_from_Ark]

3. I caught that, too

[KoKo]

9. I think it's great that the University Students are "Frenzied"

If Bernie can get young people frenzied in support.... that's good going forward for him because they are on Social Media. I was fine with the writer using "Frenzied." :

The rest of the article is not so favorable to Hillary's Campaign stops in contrast...

I think the snips show the divide in the Dem Party and that's what I was focused on and not whether the reporter was biased or not. Frankly, reading the whole article I thought it was pretty fair.

[Art_from_Ark]

11. "Frenzied" has a bad connotation

As in "mad" or "crazy". "Enthusiastic" is a much better word.

[MuseRider]

16. So does fan

it is a completely different dynamic, one who mindlessly professes love and admiration and the other someone who thinks like the person they are supporting. There are certainly fans among us but this term should no be used routinely. I agree with you.

[KoKo]

20. Frenzied can also mean in definition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Frenzied

[fren-zeed]

Synonyms
Examples
Word Origin

adjective
1.
wildly excited or enthusiastic:
frenzied applause.
2.
violently agitated; frantic; wild:
a frenzied mob.

[daleanime]

28. Can it be used, sure.....

was it used for a specific purpose, most definitely.

[Art_from_Ark]

49. Unfortunately, "frenzied fans" conjures up an image

of mindless cheerleaders, not "informed, enthusiastic supporters"

[Blue_Adept]

12. The enemies of Bernie are everywhere, subverting everything

[cali]

25. hardly, it's just the media being the media

but unsurprisingly given the number of times he's spoken out harshly against media consolidation, the corporate media is not partial to Bernie.

[daleanime]

29. +1

[Avalux]

44. I's a negative label - as if we're not serious and emotionally balanced, lol.

If that's what they need to do - attack his supporters because they can't attack him - so be it. They're in for a rude awakening when they realize that 'the way things have always been done, the old paradigm, just doesn't work anymore.

[Renew Deal]

2. The Deaniacs didn't deliver

Neither have the Paulites. So the odds are against them.

[Art_from_Ark]

4. The "Hillaryites" didn't deliver, either

[Renew Deal]

6. This is about supporter enthusiasm.

Supporter enthusiasm hasn't done much for the second tier candidates. Hillary, Obama, Kerry, Gore, etc are all top tier candidates. Dean, Ron Paul, etc are all second tier candidates. From those, Dean and Ron Paul had enthusiastic supporters. But that's not enough.`

[tularetom]

19. I'm curious as to what are your criteria for deciding who is a "top tier candidate"

"Hillary, Obama, Kerry, Gore, etc are all top tier candidates."

Obama, Kerry, and Gore all received the nomination of their party. Dean and Hillary Clinton tried and failed. Ron Paul never tried before now.

Therefore, it appears that Ms Clinton must be considered a second tier candidate.

[Renew Deal]

27. It's not about winning and losing.

It's about financing, expectations, states won, etc. The top over the last bunch of elections are the ones I mentioned and Bradley and 2004 Edwards. 2008 Edwards was a second tier candidate.

How about 1992 Bill Clinton? He started in the second tier and ended at the top. But then there's 2008 Obama who was so well financed and organized that he started at the top. He was Hillary's main competition (for those paying attention).

[tularetom]

33. Um, Obama did not start at the top

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/14/democrats.poll/

www.gallup.com/poll/.../clinton-maintains-large-lead-over-obama

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/22/AR2007072201135.html

Here are three polls from 2007, all of which showed Clinton with a substantial lead over him, one as late as December. It appears that it was Clinton who started at the top and still lost, as good a definition of a second tier candidate as I can imagine.

[Renew Deal]

60. He started behind in the polls, but not as much in the money

Obama Shows His Strength in a Fund-Raising Feat on Par With Clinton

If there was any doubt that Senator Barack Obama could stand toe to toe with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, at least in raising money, the matter was settled on Wednesday as Mr. Obama’s presidential campaign announced raising $25 million in the first three months of the year.

Mr. Obama’s total for the first fund-raising period of the 2008 presidential race was close to Mrs. Clinton’s. She reported Sunday that she had raised $26 million, but declined to provide a breakdown of contributions for the primary season versus the general election. Mr. Obama said $23.5 million of the money he raised was for the primary season.

“It’s been a truly historic response,” Mr. Obama said in an e-mail message to supporters, “a measure of just how hungry people are to turn the page on this era of small and destructive politics and repair our American community.”

Mr. Obama, who arrived in Iowa on Wednesday evening for a campaign trip, was the last major candidate to disclose his figures for the first quarter of this year, purposefully keeping his tally under wraps for a dramatic unveiling designed to show his breadth of support. He said he had received donations from 100,000 people, half of whom contributed through the Internet, including thousands who gave $25.
<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/politics/05obama.html

Obama was a well financed top-tier candidate right from the beginning of his campaign. His poll numbers weren't there yet, but his fundraising and organization were. And this was proven by the fundraising and the outcome.

[jeff47]

38. Obama, who polled 30 points behind Clinton, "started at the top".

And while he ended up with more money, he started with way less.

Seriously, it was only 8 years ago. Not that hard to remember what happened.

[Renew Deal]

59. He started behind in the polls, but not as much in the money

Obama Shows His Strength in a Fund-Raising Feat on Par With Clinton

If there was any doubt that Senator Barack Obama could stand toe to toe with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, at least in raising money, the matter was settled on Wednesday as Mr. Obama’s presidential campaign announced raising $25 million in the first three months of the year.

Mr. Obama’s total for the first fund-raising period of the 2008 presidential race was close to Mrs. Clinton’s. She reported Sunday that she had raised $26 million, but declined to provide a breakdown of contributions for the primary season versus the general election. Mr. Obama said $23.5 million of the money he raised was for the primary season.

“It’s been a truly historic response,” Mr. Obama said in an e-mail message to supporters, “a measure of just how hungry people are to turn the page on this era of small and destructive politics and repair our American community.”

Mr. Obama, who arrived in Iowa on Wednesday evening for a campaign trip, was the last major candidate to disclose his figures for the first quarter of this year, purposefully keeping his tally under wraps for a dramatic unveiling designed to show his breadth of support. He said he had received donations from 100,000 people, half of whom contributed through the Internet, including thousands who gave $25.
<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us/politics/05obama.html

Obama was a well financed top-tier candidate right from the beginning of his campaign. His poll numbers weren't there yet, but his fundraising and organization were. And this was proven by the fundraising and the outcome.

Will Bernie raise this kind of money?

[jeff47]

62. As long as you define "the beginning of his campaign" the way you want.

Draw the line a bit earlier, and Clinton crushed him. Means he was unelectable, right?

[Renew Deal]

63. Not sure what you're saying.

You want to compare Hillary's campaign to when Obama wasn't running?

[jeff47]

65. Claims about Clinton's current fundraising are from long before her campaign officially launched

She must have raised $0 until now, right?

Again, Clinton's fundraising machine crushed Obama's at the beginning of the 2008 race. Obama made up ground later. You're drawing the line at "later" because it fits your narrative.

[Renew Deal]

69. It's supposed to fit my narritive

I still don't get your point.

[jeff47]

70. That if you move the line 3 months earlier, it destroys your narrative. (nt)

[Renew Deal]

71. You mean that Obama is a second tier candidate before his fundraising started?

If that's what you mean, it can be debated. The argument would be that the money proved the credibility of the campaign. But I still think the smart money was on Obama as an alternative to Hillary. People in the know knew that Edwards wasn't electable, Biden wasn't going to win, and everyone else was hanging on.

[TM99]

56. Oh, bullshit.

Clinton was a nobody at this point in time in the run up to the 1992 election. He wasn't second tier. He was no tier.

The only thing you consider to be top tier is money. It is always the fucking money.

[Renew Deal]

58. I had a first tier and then everyone else.

So I think we're saying the same thing.

Money isn't everything, but it's a very very big part of it. It's tough to run for president without cash.

[Renew Deal]

61. Ron Paul, not Rand Paul

[brooklynite]

7. Hillary Clinton got 18 million Democrats to vote for her...how many did Howard Dean get?

[Art_from_Ark]

8. And she still didn't win

[Renew Deal]

13. So we agree that supporter enthusiasm isn't enough to win.

It takes more than that.

[Art_from_Ark]

15. I never said it, on its own, is enough to win

But then again, Obama had plenty of supporter enthusiasm, did he not?

[brooklynite]

22. ...but she got the same number of votes as Obama

She lost for tactical reasons (which States to campaign in), which will likely be the same problem Sanders will face, since he won't have the financial resources to compete nationally.

[arcane1]

26. His "financial resources" are going to be individual, regular human beings

Not Super-PAC corporate money.

[Renew Deal]

30. The dollars unfortunately count just as much.

[arcane1]

34. Yeah, the difference lies in who gets thanked for it n/t

[brooklynite]

39. Sorry - unless he's going to have an army working FULL TIME for free...

...he's going to have to pay staff to organize in each Iowa County if he wants a successful vote turnout.

[arcane1]

41. LOL no worries. It can be done without Wall Street money, no matter what they claim

Billionaires and corporations want to trick us into thinking they are a necessary evil, but we aren't stupid enough to be fooled by them.

[upaloopa]

5. Like adults vs kids

Hillary is saying we each have a role to play in making the country better and her job is to help make that roll doable.
Bernie says nothing should be like it is everything should be better. No context no how will it get done and the kids cheer yea Bernie!

[Art_from_Ark]

10. I think you have that the other way around

Bernie lays out specifics, and has a 30-year track record to show he puts his money where his mouth is. Hillary holds her finger to the wind and tells us she has a plan to make a plan.

[1StrongBlackMan]

42. Perhaps you should re-think that ...

Comment. Everything Bernie is says needs to be fixed, came about or got worse during that 30 legislative career. What makes you think he will be more effective, more convincing of folks that would no longer be his peers?

Though I have not settled on a candidate, that is my major question mark regarding a Bernie Presidency.

[merrily]

52. Bernie (I) was responsible for the last 30 years, not the Democrats and the Republicans who were in

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:23 AM - Edit history (1)

office during that time? Mayor of Burlington? One house member out of hundreds? One Senator out of 100?

Good luck with that. (See also Reply 54 on this thread.)

Let's see, what else happened 30 years ago? Oh, yes. Incorporation of the DLC, whose game plan it was to win the Oval Office by having Democrats, newly dubbed New Democrats, behave more like Reagan and less like traditional Democrats, like New Deal, Fair Deal and Great Society Democrats. That's why it's so funny when Hillary, founding member of the DLC and member of the Congressional New Democrat Coalition, compares herself to LBJ or FDR when she runs in a Democratic Presidential primary.

As far as accomplishments, Bernie did a lot for an Indie. In the House, he founded the Congressional Progressive Caucus and chaired it for its first 8 years, growing it from five or six members to, at one point, about 100 members. Got the most floor amendments passed, too. His Senate record is not too shabby, either.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse?sponsor=400357

Must have been a damned good Mayor, too. They just kept electing him, no matter what. Five times, IIRC.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/128014412

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=14420

Meanwhile, how did Hillary distinguish herself from her caucus while in the Senate? By trying to pass two flag desecration bills after the SCOTUS had declared flag desecration to be constitutionally protected speech? By making a televised speech supporting the invasion of Iraq?

Although you say your mind is not made up, I've not seen posts of yours that support that statement. Maybe your mind is more made up than you realize?

[1StrongBlackMan]

57. get that I am blaming Bernie for anything ...

what I said was (in pertinent part):

Everything Bernie is says needs to be fixed, came about or got worse during that 30 legislative career. What makes you think he will be more effective, more convincing of folks that would no longer be his peers?

Although you say your mind is not made up, I've not seen posts of yours that support that statement. Maybe your mind is more made up than you realize?

Because you know my mind better than I know my mind? Please don't do that.

[merrily]

64. I think he has been effective. I think your implication that he could

single-handedly turn the tide of Third Way Democrats and Republicans is unrealistic. But he worked with them fine and he accomplished a lot, as my prior post indicated. And the Democrats valued him, House Democrats, Senate Democrats and, when he was DNC chair Howard Dean. The all called him an asset to the Caucus.

Because you know my mind better than I know my mind?

I've read a good number of your posts, including your Reply 57. I've read a good number of posts of people who had made up their minds, as well as a good many posts of people who were undecided. I also know how I posted when I was undecided. (I was never undecided as to Hillary, but there was a time when I was trying to decide between Warren--when I still had hope she might run--Bernie and Martin.)

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Okay; but, still ...

all I can say is ... I have not decide whom to support in the Democratic Primaries. I have concerns about Bernie and HRC, and do not know enough about O'Malley to fall one way or the other.

My decision point with regard to the candidates (which has not come close to having arrived) rests in whether my concerns are out-weighed by my assessment as to that candidates General Election electability ... because to me, electability is of paramount concern.

[merrily]

67. Uh huh.

[1StrongBlackMan]

68. ...

ETA: And, in the meantime, I will continue doing what I have been since late February 2015, meeting (and socialize) with other local Democrats to map out the 2016 GOTDemocraticV infrastructure.

[think]

17. Bernie Sanders proposed a small stock transaction fee that would pay for college educations

It would both slow high frequency trading and help Americans get the better educations needed for the jobs of the future.

How is that not contextual as to how he'll get that specific goal accomplished?

Bernie Sanders Wants to Tax Stock Trades to Pay for Free College

By David Knowles - May 18, 2015 6:03 PM EDT

Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders wants to take from the rich in order to make public college tuition-free for everyone else.

On Tuesday, the Vermont senator will hold a press conference in the nation's capital at which he will introduce a plan to use a so-called Robin Hood tax on stock transactions to fund tuition at four-year public colleges and universities.

Sanders' bill sets a 50-cent tax on every "$100 of stock trades on stock sales, and lesser amounts on transactions involving bonds, derivatives, and other financial instruments," the group Robin Hood Tax on Wall Street said Monday in a press release.

"The Robin Hood tax would also slow the growth of automated high frequency trading, which makes the stock market more dangerous," the press release stated. "A small tax would make risky HFT unprofitable, and help reduce the excess speculation on commodities like food and gas that drives up prices, which will protect the economy from computer-generated collapses and market manipulation."...

Full article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-05-18/bernie-sanders-wants-to-tax-stock-trades-to-pay-for-free-college

[Scuba]

23. You've missed this one by a mile.

[BrotherIvan]

24. Haters gonna hate!

[jwirr]

43. Bernie's words: I cannot do it alone. All of us will have to get involved....." And that is what you

saw happening with the TPA - we did not support it and we got involved.

Hillary talks around almost every issue she says she is for unless it stands to win her some votes. That is not enough for many of us. We want to be involved - we do not want an imperial president who goes off on his/her own regardless what the people want.

[frylock]

46. Bizarro post

[Ron Green]

50. Here's the difference:

Hillary walks a careful line and reveals nothing of substance. Bernie pulls back the curtain and shows that the whole game is fixed. Bernie's is the message we must have if we're to survive.

[NightWatcher]

14. Do you know who else got their fans fired up?

Our current Prez, that's who.

Motivated, excited fans are a good thing.

[WillyT]

18. K & R !!!

[tularetom]

21. If you assume your candidate has it in the bag, what's left to get excited about?

As far as I'm concerned, let 'em keep thinking that.

[Orsino]

31. Guess it's still the fringe-candidate meme here...

...but I don't expect the idiot MSM to update its playbook every month.

Sanders' campaign was always going to be a long shot; it appears to be doing about as well as possible versus Clinton's built-in momentum. Gratifying to see.

The longer the public has to notice something beyond Bernie's hair, the more traction his message can gain.

[KoKo]

32. "Fringe Sig" is a tribute to DU'er "JackpineRadical" who just passed away.

He created the Avatar because there were news media making fun of Bernie's hair as a silly attack on him. Many of us are using it as a tribute to "JackpineRadical" and also because Bernie is an underdog candidate but a hero to those of us on the Left who support his policies.

[Orsino]

36. So that's what that thing is.

[KoKo]

37. YES...! And, some of them have "Jackpine's" RIP and date on it...like mine...

It's too tiny to see well, though.

[Thinkingabout]

35. Bernie is not leading his supporters to continually run the talking points even though he has said

he has never run a dirty campaign but they continue. Does his supporters discount his leadership?

[jeff47]

40. Representative Gutierrez says "Hi".

He also actually gets media coverage, unlike DU posters.

[frylock]

45. Hillary is campaigning like an underdog

[KoKo]

48. She Is! She's redoing what went wrong that she didn't win 2008!

It's "Campaign Strategy" .....nothing wrong with that...but, it seems tired, at this point.

[merrily]

53. I had the same reaction.

[Enthusiast]

47. Go, Bernie!!!!

[Kalidurga]

51. I think that Hillary is going to have an enthusiasm problem.

Sure people might say nice things about her. Sure they might vote for her. But, she isn't really rallying the troops like Bernie is. Bernie is a true commander in chief for the 99%.

[merrily]

54. A CIC who knew not to advocate for the Iraq War, who knew to vote against the unconstitutional

Patriot Act. A chief executive who knew to vote against repeal of Glass Steagall.

[Sunlei]

55. think I'll wait a year and see where this media generated campaign shakes out.