Just food for thought when someone makes a positive post about an event for a Dem Candidate

[LynneSin]

First I'm not pointing fingers at any supporters for any candidates because you all do it.

But when someone posts a link about a positive experience about a gathering where one of the Democratic Candidates does a rally it always seems that someone from the other team shows up to dump a bunch of snark and negativity into it.

As someone who is staying truly undecided for the most part - this just looks tacky and really doesn't bode well for me to think why your particular candidate is any better than the one you're badmouthing. There is plenty of other threads where you can all bash each other over the head saying why one candidate is better than the other. I for the most part I try to avoid those too - I like all the candidates equally although if Biden ran I'd probably be inclined to favor him.

But I do enjoy reading the threads about the rallys and other events - those should be positive threads and I know each of your candidates are having plenty of positive events. Why can't we just leave the negativity out of them? I mean this negativity just looks bad, makes us look as bad as the GOP with how we badmouth each other.

Can we just leave the events and rally threads alone when it comes to the candidate bashing? Let those be the positive experience threads that anyone, including us undecides or prefer not choosing can enjoy during this primaries.

I know it's a free world and you can do what you want, but I'm hoping all declared supports can have this much respect for each other.

[Historic NY]

1. You noticed.....

this place is going to be worse than 08 if its allowed to continued unabated.

[JDPriestly]

33. I happen to like the free-for-all. Those who don't probalby don't belong on a discussion forum.

Some people really can't take the stress of disagreement. Some like me thrive on it.

Maybe a different website for those whose sensitivity is offended here is a good idea.

Instead of just protected groups, we could start two websites, one ALLBERNIE and another ALLHILLARY, and then the easily disgusted and offended would be able to go to their separate caves and talk to each other.

It might be a lot more boring, and we would all learn and think less, but at least our very delicate, sensitive little feelings would not be hurt.

[hfojvt]

59. I certainly like an open debate

Free for all could get a little TOO wild.

Like a thread gets posted about Bernie and gets a bunch of replies like

Fuck Bernie
Bernie sucks
God, I hate Bernie, he's such a gun nut and a tool.

I prefer substance to just tweeting insults and the hunting of the snark.

However, I don't understand this whole "all replies need to be positive" philosophy. Like if somebody posts an OP that says "X is true" or "I love X" then only positive replies like "knr" or are allowed or appropriate. Anybody who posts a reply like "X is false" or "I hate X" is committing the faux pas of "sh*tting on the thread".

I don't get that. There is supposed to be no discussion, no disagreement? Granted, most people would rather get replies of "well said" and not get replies of "you are wrong, and egregiously so, and not only that you misspelled 'remunerative'" (for years I thought it was renumeration rather than remuneration. Even now a part of my brain is saying remuneration? seriously? Although some great spellcheck in the sky has handily underlined renumeration in red and left remuneration alone. So there's that.)

Anyway, where was I? Partly I was saying that sometimes you might learn more from the people who disagree with you (or correct you) than you do from those who don't. Some people though, insist on an echo chamber?

[JDPriestly]

71. I usually ignore the statements that don't have nay substance. They are just boring.

I grew up in a middle-sized family (4) and learned to turn off to stupid comments. That's probably a skill we need to have on DU. It can be learned. Just skip and go to the next comment.

[LynneSin]

62. Not every thread needs to be a free-for-all

Just saying.

And for your information you are not winning any new supporters at DU with that mentality.

[Dawgs]

43. Huh? 2008 was awesome on DU.

Not joking.

[mythology]

2. A good request

There really isn't a need for that sort of negativity here.

[leveymg]

3. Snark and nastiness aside, when is criticism of a Dem's speech ok?

If a candidate announces that she all but intends to resume the Cold War, Iran is an enemy, and is proud of her record increasing the defense budget and will "keep America safe at any cost" while pointing to the World Trade Center over her left shoulder -- the same speech Dubya could have made in the same place if he were running today as a Democrat -- are we allowed to point that out? Or, should we just leave those pronouncements alone?

Serious question.

[onehandle]

5. Start your own thread.

Why let your critique sink down into a lightweight celebration thread? Why be the turd in a punchbowl? Unless it's more important to disrupt than discuss.

Start your own thread and get your voice heard.

[leveymg]

11. I did that as well. It hit the top of the Greatest yesterday. But, sometimes,

one has to do more, and it seems necessary to raise a dissident voice.

The point of dissidence isn't to poop in someone's punchbowl, or to be unpleasant, or to draw attention to myself. The point is that supporters hear what they want to, read what they want to, and sometimes the only way to try to get the message through to them is to go to them. It isn't to be aggressive, to disrupt a thread, to try to make people feel bad, or even to stir up unnecessary controversy. It's to point out what others seem to miss when it's obvious they've missed something important.

That's a dissident task that I don't particularly like, but, see no other way. If you think I'm wrong or can do better, please let me know.

[onehandle]

21. This is Democratic Underground, not Dissident Underground.

The GOP is the enemy. A Democratic party (small p) thread, not so much.

'I did that as well. It hit the top of the Greatest yesterday.'

Well, there you go. Congratulations!

[leveymg]

49. I respectfully disagree. Dissident voices is part of what makes this Democratic Underground and not

just the cheap seats in the cheering section for the front-running presumed Democratic candidate.

This may be our last, best chance to raise our voices to prevent a disaster. A whole series of them. Others can choose to turn a deaf ear, but I think we have a duty as Democrats and as citizens to be civilly disobedient.

[Adrahil]

22. I didn't see your posts, but...

Sometimes HOW you voice criticism matters too. There is a difference between saying "I am uncomfortable with Clinton's position on defense and international relations" and saying "She's a Republican warmonger!!!!"

Again, I didn;t see your posts, so I'm not trying to characterize them, but I have seen posts very similar to what I posted above.

[leveymg]

31. Here it is.

Please tell me how I could have done this differently. Thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026829753

[JDPriestly]

37. This is a discussion forum. People respond to posts of other people.

This is not a forum in which the assumption is that we all agree and are nice to each other. There are lots of other websites for the weak-kneed who want to celebrate their candidate in relative peace and isolation.

I love being the bird in a punchbowl. And I love others who like to be the bids in my punchbowl. I think that is what democracy and free speech are about.

And sometimes parades deserve to be rained on.

I note that it is mostly Hillary fans who are so sensitive to criticism of their candidate. That's because there is just so much to criticize about her. It's unfortunate, but let the chips fall where they may.

[onehandle]

41. Mmm. What a yummy turd.

The punchbowl was tasty for the party goers that had been invited, but when the party-crasher took that dump in our punchbowl we all changed our minds and drank deeply.

Yummy yummy yummy.

Let the turds fall where they may! That's what I say.

Sip... Mmmmmmmmm....

[cui bono]

48. If you consider people of differeing opinions "party crashers" perhaps you should stay

in the Hillary Group only. This is a discussion board. A political one. There are going to be differing opinions. Use the ignore function if you must. But just because someone has a different opinion than yours doesn't make them a "party crasher".

[jwirr]

6. Exactly. If the speech is discussed in the context of a rally then can we respond to the speech?

[LynneSin]

8. Why can't you just start a new thread about the rally from your side's perspective?

You know this wasn't just about the Clinton Rally or Hillary Clinton. I'll see Hillary people disrupt threads about Bernie rallys/event too. But lately it seems like the Bernie people are way more disruptive than the Clinton people.

No one says you can't talk about the message but start a new thread. Leave someone's positive report about the rally event be just that. I would hope that everyone on both sides do this.

[jwirr]

9. I know that you are not pointing fingers. I was asking because on Sunday much of the speech was

broken down into other posts but it was taken from the original post so the link was still the rally.

[calimary]

19. THIS ^^^^^

I really haven't seen ANY Hillary people dumping on other Dems. But I have noticed a painfully large and sometimes outright vicious attempt from - I'll just say - elsewhere on the Dem landscape.

Granted, I may not have looked around enough. Admittedly.

But I sure know what I've been seeing lately, looking around to at least some extent. I keep wanting to shout - HEY GUYS, HILLARY PEOPLE ARE NOT THE ENEMY!!!! The GOP IS THE ENEMY, OKAY?????????????? Kindly direct your brickbats and mace shots and insults and snark at THEM, OKAY??????????

STOP IT, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!!!!!! We're gonna wind up with a CON in the White House in 2017 if this divisiveness continues. I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN. I'm old enough to have WITNESSED IT PERSONALLY!!!!! 1968 - Hubert Humphrey versus Gene McCarthy in the Democratic Party contest. Lots of pouting and lots of staying home when one Dem candidate prevailed over the other Dem candidate. And guess what happened? We wound up with richard fucking NIXON in the White House. I defy ANYONE here to declare that a positive outcome of ANY sort.

I've found that, even though I have openly and publicly professed a VERY eager willingness to support a different candidate if that candidate beats Hillary for the nomination, I am now avoiding threads for that other candidate. I used to rec them because it's the principle here - I SUPPORT DEMS. NOT THE CONS!!!! But I've stopped doing that. The vitriol here is starting to alienate me from that other candidate. And I don't want it to get that way. I would urge followers of all candidates to TAKE IT EASY ON THE FAN BASE HERE! Hillary people, Bernie people, STOP IT!!!!! The supporters of both those candidates are NOT THE ENEMY. OKAY?????? LAY OFF!!!!!!!!! That bullshit is only going to alienate the undecideds here, when I suspect the real desire is to woo them toward one's own camp, is it not? Hell, I've already seen testimony here about that very thing happening. I'm trying very hard to avoid pointing any fingers directly or naming any names, but I will only be specific enough to say some of the more rabid Bernie people have already pushed at least one wavering voter here who HAD BEEN leaning toward them - resoundingly AWAY. You REALLY wanna keep doing that? Seriously? YOU are going to sink YOUR OWN candidate - and very likely our whole side of the aisle next year if you keep that shit up. Hillary people too. WRONG WAY TO GO ABOUT DOING THAT, folks!!!!

Forcryingoutloud, guys - we're all supposed to be on the SAME TEAM!!!!!!!!

And I realize I'm probably just shouting into a vacuum... After all, as they said in the movie trailers - "in space, no one can hear you scream."

[Laser102]

23. Agreed!

[Blue_Adept]

24. I hearily rec this post

It's one of the reasons I wish we had a separate GD rimary forum so general stuff can stay in here. I do most my reading in LBN, but the main page draws me into GD with the top posts and what not, and then I'm sucked in.

[pennylane100]

29. Your post is part of the problem.

You give your candidates supporters a pass while berating all the others. I think that legitimate critique of other candidates is always appropriate if presented in a civilized manner. However that is not happening. It does not help when asking for civility and respect for another persons opinion tthe post starts off with"

"I really haven't seen ANY Hillary people dumping on other Dems. But I have noticed a painfully large and sometimes outright vicious attempt from - I'll just say - elsewhere on the Dem landscape."

I will re post my thoughts on how I view the scenery here and just plan to stay away from these threads.

I agree that the level of fighting has surpassed that of any first grade class.

The irony is that while our party is lucky to have the luxury of choosing between four high quality candidates;, the opposition with around twenty candidates, does not have one qualified enough to run this country. We should appreciate that and keep our support for our candidates at a civilized level.

While I do intend to vote for Bernie in the primary, any of the others would be fine if they win. What we should remember when tearing down other candidates, we are helping the repugs by giving them material to use against our party and they get enough help already from the likes of the Koch brothers.

[calimary]

51. I did notice you conveniently left off the rest of what I said.

Starting with the VERY NEXT SENTENCE after the "offending" statement you selected out of the whole post.

If I may...

"Granted, I may not have looked around enough. Admittedly."

And further down... when I attempted to illustrate that BOTH sides are likely at fault...

"I would urge followers of all candidates to TAKE IT EASY ON THE FAN BASE HERE! Hillary people, Bernie people, STOP IT!!!!! The supporters of both those candidates are NOT THE ENEMY. OKAY?????? LAY OFF!!!!!!!!!"

If you read my whole post, perhaps you might notice that I did NOT single out the Bernie fans for being the ONLY offenders here. I can't - especially since I haven't seen or explored a lot of the O'Malley fans' posts yet either. It's just that in my particular scrounging around DU, I have honestly not seen it as much from the Hillary side as I have from the Bernie side. I'm not alone in that, either.

My post is not part of the problem. I believe my post and others similar to it on this thread and elsewhere IDENTIFY AND DESCRIBE the problem.

[pennylane100]

82. Yes, I did notice that your post then goes on to a more even tone.

However, when trying to ask both sides to stop acting like children, it is probably not a good idea to state that while you believe that your children (aka Hillary supporters) are well behaved, there are a lot of trouble makers (aka everyone else) in the class and could we all start behaving better.

[cui bono]

53. Calimary, really.... you need to open your eyes then.

The Hillary supporters are always dumping on Sanders and his supporters. It's all over DU. In fact, they have OPs plotting to tattle on DUers to the Sanders campaign, planning their jury block lists and discussing how to manipulate the jury system by stacking them. They are acting as if they are at war with Bernie supporters. In the Bernie group that kind of shit is asked to be self-deleted and then it is, at least what I've seen of it, which has only been a couple of OPs/posts.

And all you have to do is look for sheshe's OPs about Sanders. Within her last one she claimed he is responsible for the deaths of the children of Sandy Hook.

And there were several masquerading as Bernie supporters while questioning his 'white male trickle down' policies. And then there are those who claim that it's Bernie supporters who drove them to support Hillary, yeah right.

Whatever, they can do whatever they want, it's so transparent I think they are only hurting themselves, but when people actually buy into it and keep spreading the talking point that Bernie supporters are the meanies on here I have to call bullshit.

[calimary]

74. Yay! Another fellow traveler who may have seen only part of my post

and noticed only what seemed relevant.

Re: "the talking point that Bernie supporters are the meanies on here" - Obviously my scolding both Bernie AND Hillary supporters did not register.

Re: sheshe2's thread accusing Bernie Sanders of being somehow responsible for Sandy Hook - I have searched. I believe you when you say you saw something about that from sheshe2 but I have not seen it and I have not been able to find it. There was a different thread discussing this but the OP was a different DUer. And I weighed in on that, saying it would be a problem for me if I determined that Bernie Sanders was supporting the gun-rights crowd, or voted for gun manufacturers, or whatever - and that on that same thread people were telling me two completely different AND CONFLICTING sets of information and that I'd have to research it myself.

What I have seen of sheshe2's threads are beautiful and sometimes tragically beautiful pictorials either celebrating President Obama or First Lady Michelle Obama, or mourning the struggle that's so deeply imbedded in the African American experience in this country. I've not seen one attempting to dump on Bernie Sanders.

Re: my opening my eyes - they're wide open, dear friend. But GRANTED, they're not open enough to be able to read and deeply study every last thread and every last post on this board. I'd guess you don't have time in the average day to specialize like that, either. I'm sure we've both got other things happening in the average day to take our attention away from 24/7 scouring DU. So all I can do is post about what I have personally seen or read. Perhaps, in your case, because you've got a life outside DU too, you have not seen either my repeated comments about being very happy and eager to support Bernie Sanders if he beats Hillary Clinton to the nomination; that I like what I hear from Bernie Sanders, and always have; and even that if Hillary weren't in this, I would already have long been settled into the Bernie camp. Nor do I believe in lacerating or snarking at Bernie supporters. I AM BOTH A HILLARY SUPPORTER AND NOT THE ENEMY. And true enough, I have NOT seen vast numbers of pro-Hillary threads bashing Bernie Sanders. GRANTED - there may indeed be some out there, but I simply haven't seen them.
What I HAVE seen, though, and it disturbs me greatly, dear cui bono, and I offer this sincerely, dispassionately, and without snark: There appear to be WAY more supporters on Bernie's side who have vowed that it's Bernie-or-Bust, they won't support any other candidate, they'll sit this one out, they'll vote in every race BUT the one for the Presidency, at best they can only offer "I guess I'll hold my nose and vote" or "well, I'll probably vote for her if I have to, but don't expect me to help or campaign." I have repeatedly seen FAR more of that than I have seen anything from the Hillary camp that corresponds to that kind of pledge among the Bernie-ites. Either other Hillary supporters have promised to do what I've promised to do, which is get onboard with Bernie Sanders, or they don't say one way or the other. VERY FEW Bernie supporters have indicated they'll do that if he doesn't get the nomination.

And I'm on the lookout for that now, too, cui bono, because I among those who need to see that kind of cooperation spread WIDELY throughout the Democratic world. I need to see that to remain convinced we're gonna keep the White House in 2016. I still remember 1968 - when a similar internal war broke out between Hubert Humphrey supporters and Eugene McCarthy supporters. The latter was far more progressive than the former, and the former had felt compelled to support LBJ's prosecution of the Vietnam War because he was LBJ's vice president. It got nasty and ugly and divisive as hell. And that fall, after the convention - which was a mess in and of itself - the election took place and we woke up the next morning in the clutches of richard fucking-republi-CON NIXON. I suspect many here are younger than I am, so they may be too young to have seen or lived through that. But it happened. And I am increasingly fearful that it's gonna happen again. And in that case, I DO single out the Bernie camp. SIMPLY BECAUSE I have not seen or heard nearly as much of the reach-across to the Hillary camp with the "if my guy doesn't make it, then I'm with YOURS" as I have seen from the Hillary people reaching across to the Bernie Sanders camp. More often than not, I regret to say, I've seen far more Bernie supporters than Hillary supporters vowing to sit this one out if their candidate doesn't get the nomination. THAT is significant to me and HUGELY worrisome to me, too. I'm genuinely fearful, because of the ratio I've seen in that regard - that there are Bernie supporters who'd willingly go down with the ship - because WE ARE ALL ON THAT SAME SHIP, and we would ALL go down in that case.

Because the whole point is to keep the White House in Democratic hands. WHOEVER that Democrat might eventually be.

[cui bono]

75. I saw the rest of your post, but you had already stated you hadn't seen anything

from Hillary supporters, only *cough cough* other candidate's supporters.

I really haven't seen ANY Hillary people dumping on other Dems. But I have noticed a painfully large and sometimes outright vicious attempt from - I'll just say - elsewhere on the Dem landscape.

As to sheshe's OPs, yes she posts some extremely good ones and then she has also posted the most vile one ever on DU. You want to find her Sandy Hook comment, just search her posts from last night in her very own OP, another OP that was an attempt at swiftboating.

The talking point that Bernie's supporters on DU are the meanies and Hillary's are saints is old. We all know better. There is proof of that in my journal.

[LynneSin]

61. you are absolutely right

I want to join team Sanders because he is the more progressive candidate. But I like Team Clinton because I see them as the more positive supporters not doing all this negative bullshit.

So I'm Team Undecided GO Democrats.

I will happily support any democratic candidate who wins the nomination in the fall and I will tell any poster here at DU that refuses to support the nominee after the convention is overwith what the policy here is at DU. Always has been and always will be that DU supports the Democratic Nominee. And trust me, Skinner and Earlg have always been Clinton Supporters yet they were the first to congratulate Obama and support him back in 2008.

So if Sanders people can't find it in themselves to start their OWN thread discussing the merits of how they felt certain other candidates events went instead of trolling in the main one started by supporters of the candidate they do not like - well those people look like trolls. And I remember a thread about Sanders people complaining about Clinton trolls yet they have no problem doing the same exact thing.

[JDPriestly]

38. Because mediocrity and corruption should not be allowed to celebrate themselves in peace.

Not in a democracy.

[LynneSin]

58. Wow, and I wonder why I really do not want to support Team Sanders

I like the Candidate and I like his policies but the people supporting him here are jerks.

I start a thread suggesting that all supporters respect each other with these threads yet it's only the Sanders people that seem to have an issue.

Shame, I thought you folks were just as classy as the Clinton supporters.

[JDPriestly]

73. Bernie is a strong candidate. For all her money, Hillary does not keep up with Bernie.

It's just the way it is.

Don't shoot the messengers.

If the Hillary supporters could find good reasons to criticize Bernie, they would talk about them on DU.

They had to sink to talking about an essay that Bernie wrote in the 1970s. That's pretty far-fetched and long ago.

Finding problems with Hillary and her candidacy is easy. Don't shoot the messenters.

Hillary, sadly, is not as strong a candidate as Bernie.

There are so many problems with her candidacy that it is really sad.

I would so love to be able to vote for a woman. It's about time one of us made it to the White House.

Bernie supporters are not being mean. They are doing their job which is to point out that Hillary is not the candidate we need and that Bernie is.

That's what the primaries are about.

[LynneSin]

7. Start a separate thread

There are plenty of them

Making it in a thread where someone is posting about an event where it is positive honestly - makes the person posting it look like an asshole. Like they saw that there was this really great event where thousands of people showed up so hey lets rain on the parade by being an asshole.

And for those of us still deciding trust me, we don't see it as 'ooo maybe this candidate is bad' but we see it as 'I really don't want to support that other team because it just seem like sour apple spoil sport assholes'.

And I know which candidate you are talking about but you know it's the same thing when those supporters go into your thread and talk about how they feel that candidate can't win a general election blah blah blah. They do that they look exactly the same way.

Do you think you are going to sway any supporters over to your side in these threads about events? Do you think undecides, especially those of us still not picking a side at this point in the game, are suddenly going to have a miraculous change of heart. I can almost guarentee there would be no impact.

And you know doing it one of my threads - doesn't work either because again, you just sound like sour grapes 'I can't stand someone even remotely possibly trying to make it easy for any other democratic candidate other than mine here on this board'. And my thread wasn't about just one candidate because I see this shit in all threads. But I doubt you'll see other supporters come into this thread and start doing this because in some ways we need to have some sort of positive experiences here at DU. Stuff like this doesn't make me want to support the candidate you are supporting at all. Don't worry, I support all Democrats running for President and have vowed to ensure that I will work hard to make sure no GOP is in the White House after the November 2016 election.

[1StrongBlackMan]

13. But that would take all the attention getting fun out of one's foot stomping display! ...

If one starts a separate thread ... those "on the other side" (the intended audience of the foot stomping) are unlikely to see it.

[Purrfessor]

17. Like Christians who demand the Ten Commandments be displayed on public property,

some people just aren't happy unless they can stick their fingers in the other side's eyes.

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. Yep. n/t

[calimary]

28. DAYUM! Good one, Purrfessor!

"Like Christians who demand the Ten Commandments be displayed on public property, some people just aren't happy unless they can stick their fingers in the other side's eyes."

DAYUM!!! GREAT one!!!

[JDPriestly]

46. A couple of responses to some of your statements.

And I know which candidate you are talking about but you know it's the same thing when those supporters go into your thread and talk about how they feel that candidate can't win a general election blah blah blah. They do that they look exactly the same way.

First, I don't understand the "your" thread which suggests there is ownership of the threads. When we start a thread on DU, we INVITE DISCUSSION. That's what we are doing when we start threads. Discussions in which everyone just agrees and repeats what is stated in the first post starting the discussion are boring. We learn by thinking about what we post and what others post. There is no point in just repeating nice little comments about some candidate or idea we like. We would be better off just doing some lovely embroidery at that point. I've done lots of that in my life -- love to embroider and sew and knit and crochet and cook -- all very wonderful, quiet, solitary pass-times. Somehow, the potatoes never hurt my feelings, never criticize my favorites, the carrots. It's so delightfully harmonious how the rosemary, thyme and sage work together in perfect harmony to season my broiled vegetables. Hmmm. Delicious. But DU is not my favorite mix of veggies and spices. No. That is not what DU is about. DU is about disagreeing and sometimes the statements of others, even though perfectly above reproach in terms of the choice of words (no no-no language puhhhlease.), grammar and syntax can really touch a sensitive nerve. It hurts. But it is part of the repartee, part of the exchange. As Truman said, "if it's too hot in the kitchen, get out." Anyway, the point is that when we post an opening post on DU, we are inviting the world to come into our personal kitchen. We are opening ourselves up, and we shouldn't complain if someone else puts a bit of vinegar into a dish we had so hoped would be very sweet and kind of reassuring. If we want only pleasantries, we should go to the private website of our candidate and immerse ourselves in the wonderful glow of "All's well in this best of all possible worlds" feeling until we are ready to come out and face this nasty, ugly, derisive, disagreeable real world again.

And I know which candidate you are talking about but you know it's the same thing when those supporters go into your thread and talk about how they feel that candidate can't win a general election blah blah blah. They do that they look exactly the same way.

As a Bernie supporter, I fully understand why Hillary supporters believe that only their candidate can win. I am pleased to see that Bernie is already surpassing the expectations of the naysayers in reaching crowds and getting his message out. I want Bernie to win, but I wanted Edwards to win in 2008, and look what happened to my candidate who spoke so brilliantly about my issues -- poverty, social injustice, etc. So I learned from that experience that anything can happen in a campaign. Your candidate can turn out to have a lover and an inconvenient (although probably very wonderful) love child, and your candidate can be second in the Iowa primaries, unexpectedly second and doing well, and then crash because of some scandal or health problem (the McGovern campaign's problem with his vice presidential choice) or the economy can crash at the wrong time. And isn't it great that we have more than one candidate. Let's criticize and weigh and measure our candidates well before the 2016 elections because we need to know as much about them as possible. The criticism that Bernie can't win is sort of dumb because that is what the election and the primary are about -- can he win? The Republicans were so sure that Romney would win in 2012. How could he have lost. After all, God was on his side, and Obama was either a godless socialist or an African Zulu or something like that, maybe a Muslim. When you think about the nonsense rumors spread about Obama in 2012 and then you realize that he won in the election, it sort of puts petty criticism into perspective. Don't worry about it. It's all part of the game. The game isn't very nice. Embroidery is nice. Just get some balance in your own life, and the non-embroidery moments won't hurt quite so much.

So sorry for the rant, but I had just as much fun writing my rant as Lynnesinn did writing hers, and well, please don't rain on my parade because I'm very sensitive in my way too and I do love to embroider and knit and sew and all the nice things that I can do in private and that nobody can criticize or ridicule or snark about. Thanks for reading this post. If you made it to the end, you deserve a medal.

Yours truly, JD Priestly

Please don't make me feel bad. I'm on DU because I want people to consider my sensitive feelings. And those of my candidate.

Snarked out. Thanks..

I read my post to my husband, and he said it was sexist.

So I shall add that when I want a criticism-free respite from the DU snark, I work jigsaw puzzles also. That's a genderless activity, lots of fun, and the puzzle pieces don't every hurt my feelings. So, I hope I have removed the sexist slant in my post just a bit. By the way, I am a woman. A lot of DUers have shown surprise when they learned that I am a rather petite, very feminine, very womanly woman. I assume that Lynnesinn is too. And I hope I didn't hurt her feelings with this post. But we have to live in a tough, man's world as they say, so we have to balance our feminine and masculine sides (whatever that means), and no, I have not been drinking in the morning. I just am frustrated with the attempts to silence DUers who say things we don't like. That's part of why we are hear, to expose ourselves to opinions we don't like.

[jeff47]

4. What about when the post is making a political argument?

For example, many here were claiming there would be record crowds to Clinton's launch. This was supposed to supply evidence that Clinton actually has vast numbers of excited people.

When turnout is lower than expected, isn't that relevant to their discussion? The posters wanted to use crowd size as a proxy for popularity and excitement. When it doesn't happen, they should not expect the metrics they brought into the discussion to be ignored.

Now, if the OP is just "It was awesome to be at this event", then there's no political discussion to be had - the person is sharing their experience. Dumping snark onto their experience is poor form.

But when the poster turns it into a political discussion, then a political discussion should be expected. Along with all the disagreements that come from that.

[cui bono]

10. I know you don't want to point fingers, but why did this not come up

after the Sanders kick off? People were downright insinuating he was racist in those threads.

For the record, I agree with what you say, but not with your timing. It couldn't make it more of a one sided request than outright saying Sanders supporters are the only ones who did it. I don't know that they did, I pretty much stayed out of those threads.

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. Uhm ...

after the Sanders kick off? People were downright insinuating he was racist in those threads.

No ... There were no such insinuations. Well, not on DU.

[cui bono]

45. Yes there were.

One person commented on how lily white the crowd was and said *wink wink* or something like that. There were other insinuations in OPs other than those about his kick off as well. Really, this has been shown already, it's not a news flash.

[1StrongBlackMan]

52. Okay; but that "reading" says more about you, than what those posters didn't write.

It plays out over and over again here on DU (and in liberal world) ...

PoC: "Hey! You're talking about everything, but racial justice ... and you are talking to, largely, white audiences, and what you are saying doesn't resonate with me as a Person of Color."

Liberal: "Hey! Don't call me a racist!"

[cui bono]

55. Okay, but no.

You really don't think the lily white comment couple with *wink wink* is innocent? Please.

And saying that Bernie's economic policy is "only for white males" and that when he says he wants our country to be more like Scandinavian countries they twist it to he wants it to look like them so he wants a whiter America is not insinuating racism?

You can't possible be that naive. Turn it around and have people saying the same sorts of things about a PoC and you will see racism. You hear that all the time with Republicans thinking they're being sly but we know exactly what they are insinuating. And the insinuations that appear here on DU are not sly either, they're extremely transparent.

[1StrongBlackMan]

57. Perhaps, if you post a link to the "wink wink" posts ...

or the "only for white males" posts, or the "twisted Scandinavian" posts. I have searched for them using the site's search function, and haven't found anything close to what you claim.

I HAVE seen posts making the observation to Bernie's supporters tend to be white males and that his economic primacy message, appeals primarily to white males. But that is a far cry from saying or implying that Bernie or his message is (a) racist.

[cui bono]

65. I'm not posting a call out. ;)

There was quite a furor over them at the time.

I agree with your last paragraph. And I also think Bernie needs to be more vocal about his support of PoC and women on the campaign trail, even though he has been over the decades, which he has just done over the weekend.

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. I commented that it was probably the least diverse kickoff event for "Democrat"...

seeking the top job, in my lifetime. Is that observation racist? Or did it strike a very uncomfortable, but poignant, tone deep in the soul of BS' hardcore constituency? Something about it struck a nerve. Otherwise, you'll have to point me to the thread calling BS a racist.

[awoke_in_2003]

64. You might want to get

your insinuation meter checked.

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Perhaps ...

It plays out over and over again here on DU (and in liberal world) ...

PoC: "Hey! You're talking about everything, but racial justice ... and you are talking to, largely, white audiences, and what you are saying doesn't resonate with me as a Person of Color."

Liberal: "Hey! Don't call me a racist!"

[awoke_in_2003]

79. You may have missed the thread

that is being referenced from a week or two ago, but there were some that were making innuendos that he didn't care about racial issues because he didn't bring it up in his announcement. It didn't make any difference that he has been on the right side his entire DC career. They were sly about it, but it was clear to see. And, to be fair, I have seen some (but not all, I don't get to be here as much as in the past) do similar things to Hillary, and I try to say something when I see it. Some supporters on both sides need to tone down the BS a bit. Myself, I have decided to check what I say before a post, because it is silly to falsely attacked a candidate that may be going up against republicans next November.

[1StrongBlackMan]

80. Well ...

A flat out statement that someone doesn't care about racial issues because they don't/didn't talk about it IS NOT calling that person a racist.

But as I mentioned, (white) liberals have a way of hearing things that way.

[Omaha Steve]

12. There are also wolves in DU clothing here

It's a fact.

[ColesCountyDem]

25. +1000! n/t

[Hekate]

32. Yes, some of us have noticed that

It's counterproductive, to say the least.

[cui bono]

69. Oh yes, we have.

Several of them.

[AuntPatsy]

14. Good message for DU

[66 dmhlt]

16. Amen! If you want to rain on a parade, head over to GOP Street

[jalan48]

20. This sounds curiously like self censorship.

You have your thread and I'll have mine. Isn't this what the mainstream media does? Presents issues and incidents as single events, with little or no reference to opposing view points? This way, no real debate ever takes place. The dots don't get connected. Come on folks, this is an "Underground" website, we should be able to deal with criticism of our positions.

[liberal N proud]

26. All the pooping on the otherside is a great way to help the Democrats beat Republicans

NOT!

Thanks for posting this!

[mopinko]

27. no shit. i wish the juries would wake up and realize

that their job is to hide the posts that make du suck. these turds in the punchbowl make du suck.

please people, alert on these posts. and vote to hide them if you are picked for a jury. they might not get hidden, but if there is true assholery involved, maybe the assholes will come to the bosses attention.
du would be so much better without them.
this place makes me crazy sometimes, and it is only gonna get worse as things heat up.

[Hekate]

34. Some of the jurors seems unclear on the concept

[mopinko]

44. MOST of the jurors are unclear on the concept.

i see a lot of jury reports as a mirt member. many people seem to think that the 1st amendment applies at du.
guess what folks, it doesnt and you signed a user agreement to post here that spells that out.
jurors job is to quiet that giant sucking sound.

trouble, too, is that trolls get picked for juries. saw a comment on one today that was clearly from the cave. ugh.

[Hekate]

70. Thank you. I was trying to not paint with too broad a brush, but. I don't alert very often, but...

...I have gotten some remarkably nasty responses when I do, and it makes me question just who is running this show and when the TOS were changed.

[mopinko]

84. we are.

trolls, fools and all.
a lot of people think that the old du2 rules apply. and sorta they do, if we think they should. the tos hasnt changed, but i suspect the only people who really know what it says are the zombies who sign it multiple times.

it is really up to us. there are no written rules any more. and there is at least one troll or fool on every jury. you shouldnt let the rude comments that they add bother you.

remember that admins see the hides, that 5 hides gives you a time out. a 7-0 hide goes straight to admin.
they do ban people from time to time. it is worth putting their bs on their records.

[calimary]

36. Sigh... another good point.

Lately I've found that DU is a far less enjoyable place to come to. Yeah, I've been personally slammed up one side of the room and down the other with people getting in my face in multiple ways whenever I've had the temerity to voice my opinion on guns. Meh - it is what it is - and I've come to expect it. So okay then. I just am gonna have to keep most of those feelings to myself on that score. So I avoid those discussions where I can.

But it's much harder when it's not just a single issue but a candidate and that candidate's entire campaign, background, etc. being utterly lacerated, and that candidate's supporters getting it, too. And it involves not some GOP asshole but one of our own DEMS!!!! I've now found myself in a situation that I never imagined I'd be in, on THIS site that I have loved since 2001: actually considering leaving DU, or at least taking a long break from it. Life's too short. I just don't need the avalanche of nasty. Frankly, none of us does. We're all supposed to be on the same side, are we not?

I have been blessed with congenitally low blood pressure. I value that GREATLY. And I'm determined to keep it that way.

[mopinko]

47. right there w you.

that and having every thread i start ending up in the cesspool has ruined a lot of what i love this place for.
sigh.

[calimary]

56. Sucks, doesn't it?!

My sympathies, mopinko. I'm really rather surprised at myself. I NEVER thought I'd even entertain the idea that this place was worth leaving.

I LOVE this-here DU thingie. It kept me sane in the early stages of bush/cheney, where I suddenly discovered that I wasn't alone in how I felt about the stolen 2000 election. Far from it. I discovered that how I felt was actually shared, widely, by many others. That was comforting and sustaining and incredibly supportive. EXACTLY when I needed it. I don't want to leave DU.

And I don't want to be driven to being alienated from a VERY worthy alternative candidate because that candidate's supporters have lacerated me to death, pounced on what I said, misinterpreted or short-sheeted what I said because only ONE single line in a post of many paragraphs stood out to them as being somehow vile.

[mopinko]

63. golf balls through garden hoses.

i have slowed down posting, and kept some things to myself that i really wished to share. tho pm's have helped my share with the right people.

but i never stop reading. this place is the best news source anywhere. and i am a political junkie now. thanks w.

[cui bono]

67. Too many jurors aren't capable of being or do not wish to be impartial.

One is supposed to check your opinions at the door and decide according to DU rules but many simply vote according to if they agree with or like the person in question. And then there are also groups planning on how game the system, which shows they have no intent of being impartial.

[Android3.14]

78. One person's asshole is another person's

One person's asshole is another person's speaker of truth.

The nature of the online community is that it is large enough that anyone can find a friend and anyone can find an enemy. Sometimes in the same day.

[JDPriestly]

30. This is a discussion forum, not the Mainstream Media.

The rules here should be as relaxed as possible.

I'm sorry if somebody rained on someone else's parade. We don't have to read posts if we think they are just snark. That's the best way to deal with this.

But trying to impose rules about what is snark and what isn't and then trying to get rid of the snark won't work because one person's snark is another person's truth.

Let's just be tolerant of each other's stupidity. What I consider brilliant and to the point, another person may consider to be stupid and off-topic.

That's what discussion is about. Listening to each other and deciding for ourselves what is sanrk, what is brilliant, what is stupid, what is worthless. As long as the discussion is not too nasty, let it be.

All this imposing nice little rules on each other will ruin the flow and spontaneity of DU. This is not an official Democratic Party site or at least I understand it to not be an official Democratic Party site. Let's don't make official Democratic Party or any similar rules for it.

Let's just enjoy talking with each other. If it gets a little rough, maybe it will make us stronger if we learn to deal with the task of informing ourselves well enough to argue a little better.

[mopinko]

54. you signed a user agreement when you signed up.

that is what the juries are for- to decide when snark is over the top, or if a post makes du suck. the rules dont come down from on high, the limits are us to members to decide.
so a plea to the membership to draw the line of trolling what you signed up for.

and no, it is not an official democratic party site. but it is a site for dems and other progressives, and civility is part of the deal. the mods used to take down these posts under a guideline of- remove the turds from the punch bowl. it is completely within the user agreement that everyone posting here signed for juries to do the same.
and what the op is about is nasty. there should be no place here for nasty. and there is a penalty for hides. time outs and sometimes banning. it is up to the juries to impose those penalties. and it is up to members to set the tone.
lynnesin is a long time member and her thoughts are perfectly appropriate.

[rhett o rick]

83. IMO the current system gives the trolls more power than the open-minded posters

that are interested in discussing issues and not patrolling DU for opportunities to abuse the alert, lock and hide system.

[Hekate]

35. Good post Lynne. I notice who showed up to say they (plural) have no interest in improving DU ....

....nor in seeing a Dem elected if said Dem isn't the one they claim to support. >smh<

[lark]

39. Yep, I'll sign the pledge!

No snark on candidate x feel good posts

[DownriverDem]

40. Listen to Bernie

Bernie said he would not attack Hillary. Bernie also said he is not running as a spoiler and will not allow some RWNJ to win. I think the negative anti Hillary folks are trolls.

Keep your eyes on the prize. This is not just about the White House. It's also about the Senate, House and Supreme Court. We all know that repubs know this lesson well. Our survival means the left leaners better learn it quick too.

[calimary]

60. Welcome to DU, DownriverDem!

Glad you're here. Excellent post. I, too, noticed that about Bernie Sanders - who, AGAIN, I would, AND WILL vote for and actively and enthusiastically support if he beats Hillary to the nomination. He has not been slamming Hillary Clinton. He has been making HIS points without slamming the other immediate opposition, like Hillary, or Martin O'Malley, or Lincoln Chafee, or anybody else. He seems to have noticed that those others are fellow Dems. Brother and sister Democrats. And he's respectful of that - which says boatloads about him, all positive. Look how he refused to play Andrea Mitchell's "but Hillary" "but Hillary" "but Hillary" game and just stayed on point and on message.

One would hope his followers would take note. And if HE has already made clear that he will not be a spoiler if Hillary Clinton carries the day, and he will work hard to keep the White House in Democratic hands - one would hope his followers would take note of THAT, too. I've seen it said in that camp - "WWBD" as in "What Would Bernie Do?" INDEED.

He's already said what he'd do. And I believe him.

This shit reminds me of how badly we need to take another page from ronald reagan (of all people) and make it OURS. reagan always talked about the "11th Commandment" for republi-CONS, which he said was "Thou shalt not speak ill of another republi-CON." WELL, HOW 'BOUT IT, GUYS???? Care to take THAT ONE to heart???? Seems to me it's a good idea.

[jtuck004]

42. This is how people learn. I enjoy and welcome it. n/t

[longship]

50. Of course, you mean "Poop on 'other' Democrats" threads/posts.

Those make DU utterly suck, especially 17 fucking months before the next presidential election.

Why? Oh why does the USA take a substantial part of four years of campaigning to do what many countries -- cough! The UK! -- does in a very few weeks? The answer, of course, is that the media loves a battle, and it is in their corporate interest to prolong battles. If it bleeds, it leads. And that is why bloody politics alway leads.

I would hope that intelligent DUers would be above such a thing, especially so many months before a national election. The extent that we have lost track of the political process is the extent that we extend the campaigns into near perpetuity. Nobody wins by that; we all lose.

[lovemydog]

72. I agree. And everyone who does it seems to point fingers at the 'other side's folks'

who do it. As though that justifies doing it even more. I swear it's often like kindergarten up in here.

[Liberal_in_LA]

76. we will try

[Android3.14]

77. General Discussion

Whatcha gonna do?

If an OP wants only sweetness and nice, he or she can post it in the appropriate candidate's garden club where the circular rainbow firing squad can gush all over it.

[AwakeAtLast]

81. I wholeheartedly agree!

Thank you for such a reasonable request. I would love for this to happen on DU.