Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 09:40 AM Jun 2015

Do you think US Army should go back into Anbar province?

And try to re-capture Ramadi?

This was a Sunni stronghold until the "surge" of 2007-2008. At that time, the American military was sent into Ramadi and other areas of the province with a "surge" of both troops and money. It was a last-ditch effort to attempt to stave off an outright military defeat. It is debatable which had the most impact - the military or the money?

After the American troops withdrew, the Iraqi government in Baghdad discontinued support for the militias and rebels in Ramadi and many are now their ISIS enemies. The Iraqi government in Baghdad is primarily supported by Iran and any American support against ISIS should be seen as aiding Iran and the ayatollahs moreso than the "Iraqi government".



26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Do you think US Army should go back into Anbar province? (Original Post) kentuck Jun 2015 OP
No Recursion Jun 2015 #1
No (nt) bigwillq Jun 2015 #2
No jehop61 Jun 2015 #3
I think we should stay the hell out of Iraq. malthaussen Jun 2015 #4
I don't have enough information to know what the consequences of such an operation would be. Vattel Jun 2015 #5
HELL NO! Send Bush and Cheney instead! B Calm Jun 2015 #6
Why? HassleCat Jun 2015 #7
No think Jun 2015 #8
It's one thing to pull troops out. But, once Pres. Obama sends them back in, it ChisolmTrailDem Jun 2015 #9
NO. GeorgeGist Jun 2015 #10
What had the biggest impact was the attitude of the local tribal leaders. Igel Jun 2015 #11
Other than the condescension... kentuck Jun 2015 #15
NO Runningdawg Jun 2015 #12
Depends. KamaAina Jun 2015 #13
Nnnnnnope. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #14
No kiva Jun 2015 #16
No - but not because leftynyc Jun 2015 #17
Kinda like eating more cupcakes to offset the effect of the cupcakes that got you fat. Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2015 #18
No. n/t onyourleft Jun 2015 #19
Sure.... Bigmack Jun 2015 #20
"Advisers"... kentuck Jun 2015 #21
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. B Calm Jun 2015 #22
Only if numerous relatives of Bush and Cheney are in the front lines Retrograde Jun 2015 #23
That is what is happening as we speak... kentuck Jun 2015 #24
No. Let's give President Obama's strategy some real time to work. ellisonz Jun 2015 #25
NO. calimary Jun 2015 #26

malthaussen

(17,217 posts)
4. I think we should stay the hell out of Iraq.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:04 AM
Jun 2015

If IS conquers the area, so be it, deal with them. They're not really much worse than Saudi Arabia.

-- Mal

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
5. I don't have enough information to know what the consequences of such an operation would be.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jun 2015

But I am highly skeptical.

It's too bad that it's come to this. I know that Bush and company are primarily responsible for the ongoing disaster in Iraq, but Obama didn't seem to be on the ball when he took office in 2009 in terms of promoting the inclusion of Sunnis in the new political order. Granted, there is only so much the US could have done in that regard (critics of Obama's performance in Iraq sometimes forget that Iraq is a sovereign nation) and I believe that Baghdad bears most of the blame for excluding Sunnis and hence contributing to the rise of ISIS. But in my opinion Obama should have made Iraq a much higher priority when he took office. He was focused on his ill-conceived nation-building plans for Afghanistan.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
7. Why?
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:22 AM
Jun 2015

The US military is capable of capturing and holding cities in Iraq. As soon as they leave, everything is up for grabs. I have no desire to stay in Iraq 100 years or more, even if John McCain thinks it would be a good idea.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
9. It's one thing to pull troops out. But, once Pres. Obama sends them back in, it
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jun 2015

becomes Obama's Iraq.

Not no but HELL NO!

Igel

(35,359 posts)
11. What had the biggest impact was the attitude of the local tribal leaders.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 12:04 PM
Jun 2015

Some of whom paid with their lives. Let's not fall into a new kind of racist condescension: If the locals do something that agrees with what we want (anyway), it can only be because we either tell them, weak and simple-minded as they are, to do it or bribe them to do it. Otherwise the pathetic poor souls just muddle along or do the right thing and fight us. We see this self-serving attitude in Iraq, in Ukraine, and in more than a few other places. At best those who work or agree with our domestic political and class enemies show false-consciousness, but usually they're craven, weak and pathetic, or just grasping and working against the good.

So in Anbar, factor #1 was local disgust with the Islamists. This was both the heavy-handed tactics that the "saviors" had done, that many were from out of area, and that they were challenging the local traditions and power structures. The local resistance to the Islamists came first, but the Islamists were mopping up the floor with the stumps of their severed heads.

Factor #2 was the American forces who acted under the shelter of the tribal leaders. This stopped the mopping up bit and encouraged otherwise weak tribes and clans who feared opposing the Islamists to join in. Certain martyrdom for the faith is fine, for some zealots at least; certain martyrdom that leads neither to power nor to honor is a non-starter. There is no dishonor in yielding to an enemy that you can't possibly defeat. You sometimes just side with the stronger power to preserve what you can.

Factor #3 was money, for several reasons. To leave out any reason knowingly is to implicitly assert that a partial truth is a whole truth, and in many ways that's worse than a lie because it's believable and non-falsifiable. US money paid some otherwise indifferent young men to fight for the Awakening and not for the Islamists (civic-minded souls that they were, their honor and loyalties often went to the highest bidder), it bribed some tribal leaders who were on the fence and in some cases found working with the Islamists to be an okay revenue source. However it also paid those who honestly did oppose the Islamists to fight--both because they needed the money and wouldn't have the time to fight without it, but also because to fight and kill somebody by accident would let loose a blood feud that could be ended with diyyah. Except that diyyah meant money. Finally, the money and cooperation and even the token subservience the US troops who were working with local leaders showed helped enhance the reputation and honor of the tribes that were fighting and made cooperation with the Americans or resisting the Islamists no longer betrayal and dishonorable.

Notice that #3 isn't a completely independent reason: In some ways it was, but it also leveraged #2 and #1.

So currently the "troops" have a very specific explanation. The Sunnis have been humiliated; it was part of the reason for the fighting in the '00s. They were in charge; they were properly the rulers of Iraq; they were disgraced by being tossed out of office, told that their icon was evil, and even told they weren't a majority of the population. Their revenue and Sunni privilege weren't just revoked, instead revenue went to Shi'ites and there was Shi'ite privilege. "Humiliation" is the right word for what they felt. Reclaiming honor and prestige--not to mention privilege--is important.

Most of those fighting the IS in the Arab areas are Shi'ites. Most of the Arab areas with fighting are Sunni. (The Kurds have their own turf to reclaim.) To side against Sunnis with Shi'ites is to own your humiliation. Moreover, the Shi'ites are Iranian allies. Now, if you think Americans have a bad rep, try being Persian. Simple enough, so far.

The explicit purpose of the Am advisors in Anbar is to train Sunni soldiers to fight. Now, this may be a losing proposition. But as before, and as has been repeatedly pointed out in the defense of Sunnism and Muslims, most Sunni Muslims do not support the IS and even oppose it: Individual tribes may support it, but that doesn't mean each clan or tribal member does, and not all tribes support it because they agree with it. See "factor #2" above. The goal is to turn that passive opposition into active opposition. Then it would be Sunni fighting Sunni. Now, this creates problems for all sorts of people.

For the Islamists, it's fitna, but then again they're often pompous takfiri. They'd have no trouble declaring the Sunni fighters kafir. But more importantly the battle is no longer Shi'ite v Sunni, no longer is humiliation the dominant factor. Instead, it can be billed as trying to reclaim honor, and the force necessary for this wouldn't have to be all that large. (Think of it as a class struggle for $, if that helps, even though it's not. Americans think everything boils down to money or power, which are closely linked. In many cultures, and in pre-Enlightenment Europe and in some subgroups and contexts even after that public honor was important and personal shame hadn't replaced it as a cultural determinant.)

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
15. Other than the condescension...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:18 PM
Jun 2015

.. a very good post.

Also, in my opinion, a lot of resentment still lingers from the killing of Saddam Hussein. I would agree that much of the battle is to "reclaim honor".

As I recall, the Anbar province (primarily Sunni) were the most deadly for American GIs, until they agreed to stop killing Americans. I think the money paid to them ($300-$400 per month) was almost as much as was being paid the Shi'ites in Baghdad.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
17. No - but not because
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:22 PM
Jun 2015

I don't think isis needs an ass kicking. To take the city (again) and then ultimately leave (again) just to see the incredibly inept Iraqi army lose it (again) seems to make no sense whatsoever.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
18. Kinda like eating more cupcakes to offset the effect of the cupcakes that got you fat.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:25 PM
Jun 2015

Which makes sense........if you are monumentally stupid.

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
20. Sure....
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:41 PM
Jun 2015

... go on back in!

My reasons...

1) It worked SO well the first time around.

2) A few hundred more US troops will put the fighting spirit into the Iraqi army! (Wanna buy some Iraqi Army rifles...? Never been fired and only dropped once.)

3) ISIS needs more American gear.

4) We haven't pissed away NEARLY enough money on that shithole.

5) We haven't pissed away NEARLY enough American blood on that shithole.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
21. "Advisers"...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:45 PM
Jun 2015

Also known as CIA or Special Forces?

Nothing so intelligent as jumping into the middle of a civil war.

Was it the decision of the CinC or was it the decision of the CIA??

In the end, the final decision is that of the President.

Retrograde

(10,158 posts)
23. Only if numerous relatives of Bush and Cheney are in the front lines
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 02:59 PM
Jun 2015

I don't have a good solution. I just don't want to see the GOP blaming Obama for his failure to clean up the quagmire while letting Shrub off the hook.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
24. That is what is happening as we speak...
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 03:57 PM
Jun 2015

Once Iraq falters under the violence, it will the fault of Barack Obama and the Democrats. For many, it already is...

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
25. No. Let's give President Obama's strategy some real time to work.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 04:11 PM
Jun 2015

Do you think the Iraqi's want to be slaughtered by ISIS? Hell no.

calimary

(81,507 posts)
26. NO.
Thu Jun 11, 2015, 04:23 PM
Jun 2015

If it's gonna stick, it has to be Iraqi-only. THEY have to want it. And it seems pretty clear they don't.

Makes me think of the mom who carries her baby around all the time. Does that baby start learning how to walk on his/her own? Probably not - as long as Mom's there to carry him/her. Why should he/she bother trying to do it when Mom's always there to carry him/her around?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Do you think US Army shou...