When I vote for HRC, here is what I'll be voting for

[cali]

whether I like it or not. The odds that she'll be the nominee, are pretty overwhelming.
As, I see it, the only person who can defeat Hillary is Hillary.

On the positive side, I'll be voting for non-wingnut SCOTUS Justices. I'll be voting for tolerance over bigotry. I'll be voting to block the encroachment of religion in government. I'll be voting to retain our now shredded social safety net. I'll be voting to recognize the reality of climate change.

But I'll also be voting for a continuation of the politics of money. I'll be voting for centrist economic policy masquerading as progressive and led by such people as Rubin. I'll be voting for fracking and dirty oil. I'll be voting for trade agreements tilte heavily toward corporations and exporting some of the worst American business practices.

Most alarming to me: I'll be voting for a national security hawk and war. HRC's history and rhetoric, not to mention her associations make that abundantly clear. She believes the U.S. is the world's policeman. That makes the odds of war, should she be elected, as overwhelming as the odds of her being the Democratic nominee.

[peacebird]

1. The negatives far outweigh the positives... Let's work hard to make sure you don't have to vote HRC

by getting Bernie the nomination.

[peacebird]

4. I like #FeelTheBern myself!

[Roland99]

53. Love it!

[hrmjustin]

9. Lets get dangerous?

[hrmjustin]

35. How do you get dangerous?

[hrmjustin]

41. Oh you think he is dangerous to the status quo.

[pangaia]

44. Oh stop that shit.

You do this all the time.
You know what was meant. You just want attention.
Well you got some.
Fell better, now?

[hrmjustin]

45. I do what?

[hrmjustin]

61. Just for your information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=323448

[hrmjustin]

67. You never told me what I do.

I would like to know why you felt the need to call me out?

[Agschmid]

70. That was unnecessary...

[pscot]

43. Ask Michelle Bachmann

[Scootaloo]

58. Hey. HEY! There's only room enough for so many cartoon characters on DU!

Me and MannyGoldstein, that's the deal! You want in you have to fill paperwork, pond-breath.

(Welcome to DU, by the way )

[NYC_SKP]

11. False Positives. She won't fight for women or civil rights or growing the safety net.

That's all rhetoric she's used, but her actual actions betray a globalist job destroyer willing to reach across the aisle.

Not a single item on the list of positives can withstand scrutiny using her actual actions and, often, her own words.

There's no reason whatsoever for us to vote for her.

None.

[CentralMass]

60. Go Bernie.

[Enthusiast]

72. +1 an entire shit load.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

83. So true. H>'s friendly suck-up to Wall Streeters, her support for BS trade agreements that harm Main Streeters, her ignorant vote for IWR...

Need I go on?

[cali]

16. maybe, but not compared to a rethug

[rhett o rick]

65. Reminds me of the story of the frog in the pot. Which would one rather have,

the temperature turned up gradually (the Third Way) or the temperature turned up quickly (Republicons).

I am all in with Sen Sanders.

[Enthusiast]

73. All in. Me too.

[cheapdate]

79. I'd rather the heat be turned up gradually,

to give me more time to figure out a way to escape.

More fun with analogies. We're on a train heading for a cliff. A Democratic conductor keeps a steady speed. A Republican stokes up the engines to full speed.

I'd love to see Sanders win it. I think it's unlikely.

[DrDan]

27. not sure about that - "non-wingnut SCOTUS Justices" is a pretty heavy positive

[arcane1]

40. Something EVERY Dem can provide n/t

[A Simple Game]

57. It would be a lot heavier if you could add non-corporatist to it.

And never doubt that corporations would come first for Hillary. But that wouldn't be the case if Bernie is the nominee.

[Jester Messiah]

63. They'll favor corporations over people though, you can bank on it.

Doesn't seem like a huge win for us.

[cui bono]

84. We're still in the primaries. That's a false arguement.

[DrDan]

85. it was brought up in the OP - and I responded to that

take it up with that poster

[Dem2]

51. They were being pragmatic

The poster is working like heck to nominate Bernie, but let's allow them the opportunity to also occasionally note what's likely to happen based on historical precedence and a dose of common sense.

[Enthusiast]

71. +1 an entire shit load.

[donf]

3. I'm not ready to concede

that we will have no choice but to vote for Hillary. Which is why I'm going to work my butt off for Bernie Sanders. But how anyone here can't see the truth in what you posted, is beyond me. We can do better. Let's make it happen!

Edit: and yes, I will vote for her if she has the nominee. But it would be the most disappointing presidential vote I have ever cast in my life. I honestly believe that her economic and foreign policies are not what America or the world needs at this time. If she is elected, I sincerely hope she proves me wrong.

[HassleCat]

5. Dare to Dream

I guess the "inevitability factor" is discouraging, but I'm supporting Sanders right up until the day someone else has locked up the magic number of delegates. The party controls the primary process in many states, and the caucus states are a done deal. But 100 years ago people ignored the media, ignored party labels, and voted for Progressives. They even elected one president. Was this a one-time thing, or does I happen every 100 years?

[kentuck]

6. A vote for Hillary is a vote for more war.

She will always be trying to prove that she is tough enough and will submit to the desires of the military, That is my fear.

[Wilms]

7. When you vote for...whaaaaa?

No rec for you, this time, Cali.

[Enthusiast]

74. +1 an entire shit load.

[Doctor_J]

8. also the whole sell-off of what should be public services will continue

That is my biggest negative. No progress on UHC, continued privatization of schools and roads, probably another proposal to cut or privatize social security. Sucks.

[Enthusiast]

75. Totally sucks.

Nothing in her past convinces me you are wrong.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Honestly, if we can't do better than I don't give a shit anymore, fuck this shit.

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

So the SCOTUS is already fucked.

What on Earth makes you think Hillary, once she has the office, will give a shit about women or minorities when she hasn't demonstrated that she cares about these now?

What evidence is there that she'll block religion, or not shred the safety net? There are plenty examples that she won't work to do the right thing.

Your negatives about her are all true, but those positives you're listing?

They aren't there, cali.

They just aren't there with Hillary Clinton, those parts are myth.

[L0oniX]

30. I'm not going to stay in the Dem party if Hillary wins the primary. I'm going to turn my back...

on the whole corporate owned ratfucking bucket of political santorum that passes itself off as a democracy.

[groundloop]

37. Right - who cares if we let someone 10 times as horrible into the White House?

Seriously, we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we can't accept the fact that an election is about choosing the one person out of 2 or 3 who most closely represents our views. If my choice is between Hillary and ANYONE the gopers will put up I'll take Hillary any day of the week.

Of course we need to get out and bust our asses for Bernie in the primary, but we can't lose sight of what's going to happen if we allow a goper into the White House again.

[L0oniX]

47. Without Bernie basically I don't give a shit what happens to this fucked up country.

I suppose to some the price of having more war and accepting global corporate leadership in order to replace some SCJ's is worth it.

[CentralMass]

62. if you vote for what you dont want, you own it and get what you deserve.

It is time to force the party to define a clear platform and for the candidates to clearly state their stances on the issues.

No more voting on good faith.

[pscot]

49. I did that in 1968

It did not turn out well. You may think things can't be worse, but don't kid yourself. They can.

[L0oniX]

54. Without Bernie things will get worse ...I guarantee you.

[pscot]

56. Experience tells me things will get worse anyway.

[Enthusiast]

76. Why do we always have to get worse when the nation and its people have so much potential?

Better vote for Bernie.

[rhett o rick]

66. I'm with you. It's time to go for it like there is no tomorrow. For many there isn't.

Those that want to continue the domination of Wall Street apparently are ok with the 22% of American children living in poverty.

[Fuddnik]

12. I don't know about the blocking of the encroachment of religion.

According to Jeff Sharlett, she spent quite a bit of time praying with "The Family". Those people believe that they are Gods chosen leaders.

And maybe she'll bring her buddy Dick Morris back to the White House again.

[Snotcicles]

36. Old Dick (nobody can suck a toe like) Morris? now theres a dude for ya. nt

[Enthusiast]

77. There ya go. Can we just ignore this shit? I say not!

[Laser102]

13. Hillary!! Not far left and not far right. She's just right!!!

Millions of women will turn out for her. Some will be republican. That's just the way it is. Bernie lovers on this site remind me of my love for Howard Dean. Another Bernie. Just not electable. Sorry folks. Reality bites.

[cali]

17. clearly my post is grounded in reality

I support Sanders because of issues and policy, not some ridiculous personality crap. Unlike you, I don't love politicians

[Laser102]

33. I not only support her issues and policies...

I also like her personality. Sorry I can't agree with you. Bernie Sanders is a nice guy with good ideas, just not electable. 2016 will be the year of the woman. By the way, I said I loved Howard Dean in the same way you seem to love Bernie Sanders. Chill.

[DrDan]

29. yep . . . spot-on

but there are many here who do not want to face that fact

[pangaia]

50. I have never beena quiter.

[Dragonfli]

14. I disagree in part with your analysis Cali

"I'll be voting to block the encroachment of religion in government. I'll be voting to retain our now shredded social safety net. I'll be voting to recognize the reality of climate change."

Her connections and respect for "the family" do not say to me that she will do any more than the bare minimum regarding religion in government, I see many government clergy "partnerships" in a future with her in office.

As to the safety net, I do not see her retaining it so much as destroying it at a slower pace, based on many things but largely based on her belief that a bipartisan commission like was done in the eighties as per her words in '08 would be the best approach (one that would likely raise the retirement age and increase the payroll tax) because raising the cap would in her mind be raising taxes on the middle class "yes, her words" - that says to me that raising payroll taxes on the actual middle class those below the cap as most are as well as all the poorer working demographics is preferable to actually taxing the payroll more fairly on the above middle class to her. I also expect some cuts in the "bi-partisan" commission's solutions.

Her love of fracking and oil will also negate if not overshadow any token policies regarding the environment.

I will give you the supreme court picks and women's rights and she will follow the general trend of society regarding bigotry as has always been her habit, she waits until such things gain social acceptance before committing to accept them as evidenced by her need to evolve on marriage equality (with her evolution oddly mirroring exactly public sentiments and polling).

I agree she will be somewhat better on social justice than any Republican opponent, but not dramatically so.
It will be a necessary vote, but not very much of a victory for those of us that are the victims of financial inequality that is churning out poverty as fast as it is wall st bonuses and profits.

[Enthusiast]

78. +1 an entire shit load.

The safety net.

[DFW]

15. Don't look for her to start a war for the hell of it

Republicans start wars against people they think won't shoot back, and to help out companies that helped them get into office.

Democrats don't have quite that awful a track record. It is true that Bill Clinton considered Al Qaeda a threat while Bush Lite did not (until it was too late). But the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were initiated, at the end of the day, by Republicans who saw both as profitable ventures (especially Iraq, of course, which couldn't in the slightest be undertaken under the guise of national security without outright lying--not that lying proved any kind of hindrance to them).

Hillary as an eager warmonger is as much as an exaggeration as Bernie as an eager Marxist who wants to nationalize all means of production. Like the old song goes, "it ain't necessarily so."

[cali]

19. whatever the rationale, her history clearly demonstrates her propensity to turn

to military intervention as a solution. that is not merely opinion. It's just ludicrous to pretend that history doesn't exist. it was manifest in both her Senate career and when she was SoS.

[DFW]

21. As a solution to what?

Not to diplomatic conflicts, which is what Republicans tend to favor (i.e. military solutions to what should be diplomatic arguments). If she tends to favor a stronger response to ISIS or Boko Haram, that's one thing. Don't look for her to send armed American combat troops recklessly into the Ukraine, and certainly not into Turkey, Iran or Myanmar.

Whatever other misgivings I may have about her as a candidate/president, frivolously entering us into yet another unnecessary armed conflict isn't one of them.

[DCBob]

18. I also have my concerns about her hawkishness..

but I do believe once she is in office she will turn more of a peacemaker. I think much of her hawkish rhetoric was to prove that she as a woman has the cojones to pull the trigger when necessary. Furthermore she knows this country is tired of wars and simply cant afford it. On the other hand if we elect a Republican you can guarantee a WW3 or CrusadesII.

[cali]

20. I hope you're right.

And I certainly agree that any republican spells a disastrous foreign policy

[calimary]

25. This is actually a good point. Hillary would be laboring under the same confines as Barack Obama

faced. As the FIRST (fill-in-the-blank-here). In his case, the first Black President. In her case of course, it'd be the first Woman President. The first of anything would be dicey. Human nature at work here - especially the worst of our human nature, VERY MUCH at work here, as we've seen in President Obama's case.

I'd bet that then-President-Elect Barack Obama had more than a few discussions with advisors and his wife and his most trusted friends and everyone in his inner circle about, well, let's call it the "Curse of The Uppity" that he would face if he came out strong and forceful from the beginning. They probably urged him to take a conciliatory approach, an open hand, never a fist.
They probably urged:
Try to meet the opposition halfway - or MORE than halfway.
Don't be too threatening.
You're breaking a mold that's been CENTURIES in the making.
You'll be swimming against a tide that's been CENTURIES in the making.
Even in a best-case scenario, you'll be fought anyway, so you have to take great care, try to outthink and outwit the opposition but gently. And did we remember to say don't be too threatening?
Yes. Don't be too threatening. They're all new at this. They won't know what to do or how to react except negatively to something strange and new and unfamiliar - because someone like YOU in the Oval Office is going to be exceedingly strange and new and unfamiliar. And people react in predictable ways to the strange and new and unfamiliar - usually with distrust and hostility. Especially if you're black.

Hillary would get the same thing. Especially as a woman. MORE unfamiliar territory that would be full of opposition and prejudice and pre-conceived notions dating back to the Dark Ages, hell, even to cave-dweller days, when the woman was merely hit on the head by the man, and dragged back to the cave by her hair. Hillary would have to fight against the assumptions that a woman is weak, a woman can't cut it, she can't be Commander-in-Chief - she'll hand it all over to the Russians/Taiban/ISIS/Fill-in-the-blank-here. Her place is in the White House kitchen or heading up the household staff or something. Women don't belong in the Oval Office except when they're visiting their husbands... OR because they're the cleaning lady making her rounds at the end of the day. All that rot.

It'll be interesting to see it play out if Hillary does prevail. Watching the human nature play out - or maybe it's more appropriate to say the BASER human nature playing out, considering what we've seen so far. I'm wondering if there'll be one of two effects on display:
Will this be seen as a one-two punch against all the damn prejudice out there? ("SHIT, Bessie, first we had to put up with one o' THEM black folks in the White House, and NOW it's some brassy broad in there, we're-going-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket, I-want-MY-America-BACK" blah-blah-blah.) And will they act out?
OR will it be resignation and capitulation as the Bronze-Agers see the tide irreversibly running against them (and the "America" they thought they knew and with which they were so much more comfortable)? Will some of 'em give up? Will they give up and go away, seeing their "cause" is lost?
I kinda suspect we'd see the former rather than the latter. These folks are the ULTIMATE Sore Losermans. As we've seen, they revert to their own inner spoiled brat-child, screaming and thrashing on the floor throwing temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store because Mommy wouldn't buy them sugar-cereal. They act out like nobody's business. It's really embarrassing. I always feel like I'm watching an erupting class of unruly spoiled-brat kindergarteners in mid-tantrum every time I see a group of 'em.

And then again... just imagine how this "well-disciplined, reasonable, intelligent and thoroughly adult" bunch would react - knowing a SOCIALIST!!!!!!! had been elected to the Oval Office... GEEZ...

[CentralMass]

64. Really ? At this stage in her life, what is preventng her from running as a died-in-wool democrat ?

if that is indeed what she still is. Is the price of admission to high to win the office with selling out ?
Or is she really a Wall St loving corporatist ?

[Plucketeer]

22. Of course, I'd vote for dame Hillary if I HAD TO.

I hope to hell I don't have to. I doubt Bernie colors his hair. On the other hand, if you're about appearances.....

[raindaddy]

23. At what point to we simply stop compromising????

We've gotten to the point where the richest 1% will soon own more than the rest of us combined. Unions are almost dead. We're constantly at war. The environment has taken a backseat to corporate pollution The current form of the Democratic party has done little to change any of that and like it or not Hillary Clinton represents that current form of the Democratic party.

How much longer can we continue down this road? Another eight years of Wall Street and corporations calling the shots? And there's no guarantee that you'll be voting to retain our social safety net.. Our current president offered up Social Security.

In all likely hood this could be the last time we ever see a genuine progressive populist candidate run for President as a Democrat. If Bernie doesn't become the nominee I will not be considering new Democrat Hillary Clinton. And if the Democratic party again fails to adopt progressive economic values I will no longer support the party.

[davidthegnome]

24. A little early for surrender.

IF she is the party nominee, I will almost definitely vote for her. I'm not ready to say that though - I'm not ready to look into my crystal ball and say "Oh yeah, Hillary will win for sure." Maybe she will, maybe she won't. My support is for Bernie Sanders, who CAN win. He has the enthusiasm, the passion and the energy to get people motivated, to give people some hope again. Obama dropped the ball - but Hillary doesn't really have one to drop. We more or less know what we'll be getting with her.

I'll say outright - I do not like her as our nominee, I do not like the idea of her as President. The republicans are far worse, so if she is my only option....

This is NOT yet a done deal. I remember being told that Obama couldn't beat Hillary. I remember being told many things in the past that turned out to be absolutely false. I'm not throwing in the towel on Sanders just yet. It's a shame that you've made up your mind about this so early.

[truebluegreen]

42. fyi, I doubt if Cali will ever surrender, thank Dog.

p.s despite the reference to Dog, I am not being facetious.

[sabrina 1]

26. Then vote for and campaign for the better candidate. I believe he WILL win

so I'm not even thinking of any other option right now. IF it comes to that, I'll think about it THEN.

[brooklynite]

28. Don't feel that you need to if it bothers you that much.....

...there'll be plenty of Democrats (liberal and moderate) who'll be happy to vote for Hillary's pro choice, pro gay rights, pro environment, pro progressive taxation, pro immigration reform, pro criminal justice reform, pro campaign finance reform and pro small business policies.

We probably won't even notice that you're missing...

[oasis]

31. "Odds of war" overwhelming!?

[leveymg]

32. In other words, you'll be voting at cross-purposes against yourself.

By the way you framed the issue - you'll be voting for a frayed safety net but for the huge institutions and trade practices that have hollowed out the center and excavated the bottom of the US economy.

By voting for Hillary, you will be voting to extend the economic draft that impacts only the middle and lower classes, and voting to send these economic recruits to fill combat roles in bomb craters that we will be excavating in ever greater numbers in oil-rich places around the world.

By voting for Hillary, you will be voting for the Multinational companies that make excavators and fill bodybags made in China.

[Joe the Revelator]

38. I'm not ready to hand her the nomination quite yet...

long way between now and next spring.

[jalan48]

46. Thanks Cali

Unfortunately we are voting against someone instead of for someone. It seems to have happened to Democrats a lot since the 80's.

[DanTex]

48. I'll be voting for Obama part 2. Which is fine with me.

Let's get some liberal justices on the court, consolidate Obamacare, do something about immigration, hopefully get some Democrats in congress and move on income inequality, etc. It won't be radical change, but it will move us in the right direction. Also, hold on to the White House for 8 more years, effectively blocking all the horrible things Republicans want to do, and give more time for the demographic trends to move the country to the left.

[arcane1]

52. If Money wins yet again, let's hope it's the last time n/t

[Purveyor]

55. I just may be sick and not able to make it to the polls that day but time will time. eom

[CentralMass]

59. You can add a pro-Monsanto/GMO stance as well

[Jim Lane]

68. Very good summary of the situation

One can have a lively appreciation of Clinton's numerous deficiencies, and be unhappy at the prospect of her becoming President -- while still understanding how very much worse all the Republicans are, and be aghast at the prospect of one of them becoming President.

It's unfortunate that some DUers seem to have trouble juggling these two ideas. They're not contradictory!

[RoccoR5955]

80. You know Mrs. Clinton isn't a bad candidate, and O'Malley would be a good CEO

But I think that Bernie is a better candidate for all the reasons that he has mentioned, so my vote goes to him!

[joshcryer]

81. At least you're not a single issue voter?

I guess?

Sanders hasn't even begun his campaign. Clinton may be ahead now but wait until the debates. This is simply setting up for defeat. Something I've seen increasingly from "Sanders supporters."

[Gothmog]

82. Control of the SCOTUS is an important isuue to me