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sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:46 AM May 2015

How Does Germany Afford Free Tuition For All Of Its Citizens?

ATTN: Ok - I don't get it. How can a country with 80+ million people entirely fund higher education and not go bankrupt? Where is the money coming from?
Even before this news, Germany had extremely low tuition and fees – around $600 per student. In other words, around $14,000 less than what students here have to pay. Germany, and many other European countries, view higher education as more of a public than a private benefit. They can afford this for a couple reasons. First, they simply agree to pay higher taxes. Second, Germany has a lower percentage of students go on to college than we have here in the U.S. Here, particularly at public schools, college costs have risen as a response to lower levels of public support from states, and increasing numbers of students going to school.

ATTN: Have US elected officials weighed in? What are they saying? Is there any chance this will happen here in the USA?
Don’t hold your breath that we will have tuition-free education anytime in the U.S. soon. But that doesn’t mean that we couldn’t have a more affordable and equitable system. At the state level, Tennessee has introduced a program of “free” community college tuition, with Chicago and several other U.S. states following suit with proposals, though even that program is pretty limited in the benefit it provides students. At the federal level, policymakers have been primarily focused on how to reduce current debt, or help struggling borrowers with monthly payments by enrolling more borrowers in income-based repayment plans. Others have been focused on the inadequacy of grant aid in meeting the needs of students, but there has yet to be a push to fully abolish tuition and fees, or take much autonomy away from the states and institutions who make those decisions.

And obviously, our system differs from Germany in some fundamental ways – students at major U.S. public and private universities tend to have more flexibility, more student services, and a far more expansive array of campus activities. But it’s important to remember that a high-cost, debt-based system was not always the norm here. Just 20 years ago, fewer than half of graduates borrowed for college (compared to 7 in 10 graduates today). And just 30 years ago, you could finance a year’s worth of tuition at a minimum-wage summer job. But due to deep and unrelenting state budget cuts, inadequate grant aid, and poor targeting of some of the subsidies we do provide, that time seems as foreign as Germany’s system does today.

At Demos, we’ve created a proposal for a new federal matching grant program that would provide states with incentives to reinvest in higher education to levels that once made it affordable, and to target funds at the students who most need them. Our goal is to return the U.S. to a system of primarily debt-free higher education (meaning, essentially that you could pay for college with a summer and/or part-time job), particularly for low-income and middle-class students.


http://www.attn.com/stories/211/how-does-germany-afford-free-tuition-all-its-citizens



This is an interesting article about the roadblocks to lowering the costs of higher education in the U.S.,here's a link to Demos (I admit I've never heard of this group)proposal:

http://www.demos.org/publication/affordable-college-compact


48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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How Does Germany Afford Free Tuition For All Of Its Citizens? (Original Post) sufrommich May 2015 OP
Bear in mind - "free tuition" DOES NOT mean "college for everyone" brooklynite May 2015 #1
I'm not concerned with free tuition.I want affordable tuition based sufrommich May 2015 #2
Ditto MaggieD May 2015 #7
We agree on something for the most part. GummyBearz May 2015 #35
Agree, those sound like achievable goals. nt sufrommich May 2015 #37
I got my education that way. But I wonder how much that has been cut in the years since the 70s? jwirr May 2015 #18
I'm prepared to accept that IF you are qualified and IF you want to go truebluegreen May 2015 #3
That's what they do in Germany AgingAmerican May 2015 #14
Chosen for them based on grades and examinations NT 1939 May 2015 #29
And the German students TM99 May 2015 #41
NO, not authoritarian 1939 May 2015 #45
I would be fine with it. TM99 May 2015 #46
That's the argument the GOP used against Obamacare AgingAmerican May 2015 #11
Not everyone needs to, or even should, go to college. hifiguy May 2015 #21
Honestly romanic May 2015 #26
I always find it interesting... Scootaloo May 2015 #27
Well, they probably did not do that Turbineguy May 2015 #4
Two things, Taxes and national priorities. Agnosticsherbet May 2015 #5
That's right MaggieD May 2015 #6
America's Elite are the ones who make money in America being the world's policemen riverbendviewgal May 2015 #10
Agreed MaggieD May 2015 #12
This is the key BrotherIvan May 2015 #9
Germany and the rest of Europe depends on the USA to foot the military bill KittyWampus May 2015 #8
Well, that's what our bloated and corrupt military industrial complex claims... hunter May 2015 #15
Exactly what I was going to say. NaturalHigh May 2015 #23
Especially since they have the funds for their own defense.nt sufrommich May 2015 #38
It is strange how Germany and Japan treestar May 2015 #39
It's worse than you think, it's not just "their citizens," it's EVERYONE. hunter May 2015 #13
Yup. California had arguably the finest higher-education system in the world truebluegreen May 2015 #25
Fortunately I made it through by 1971, in 4 years of teaching my debt was gone. That is the way it libdem4life May 2015 #32
While some Americans are bothered by the idea that not all students get to attend university, tblue37 May 2015 #16
Good post. We need to rethink our whole school curriculum. Teaching for the test is not doing jwirr May 2015 #17
Excellent analysis. hifiguy May 2015 #22
It's one of those tradition things people cannot get past treestar May 2015 #40
Good post. n/t jaysunb May 2015 #43
Great post! DawgHouse May 2015 #47
Thanks--to all of you who responded to my post. nt tblue37 May 2015 #48
No MIC choking their economy. 99Forever May 2015 #19
Absolutely correct. libdem4life May 2015 #36
Ka-Ching . . . Spending as much as the rest of the world combined on defense is Strelnikov_ May 2015 #42
Even Mexico sends worthy students to University and most European countries, in fact MOST countries underahedgerow May 2015 #20
our bloated, corrupt Mic prevents us from having free school, upkept roads, healthcare, Doctor_J May 2015 #24
I got free college.... Bigmack May 2015 #28
My dad went to college though the GI Bill too and a got lifelong career for sufrommich May 2015 #30
I do like the idea of people going to college littlewolf May 2015 #31
Colleges is free in Louisiana Sgent May 2015 #33
I didn't know that about Louisiana.nt sufrommich May 2015 #34
Education is a right. PRB May 2015 #44

brooklynite

(94,719 posts)
1. Bear in mind - "free tuition" DOES NOT mean "college for everyone"
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:50 AM
May 2015

It means IF there's a space in a University and IF you get accepted, the Government pays for it. The German Government does not provide a space for everyone.

To that end, are you prepared to accept the unfairness that the Government provides a free education to some people and not to others?

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
2. I'm not concerned with free tuition.I want affordable tuition based
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:54 AM
May 2015

on a student's ability to pay it without a lifelong burden of a large debt.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
7. Ditto
Sun May 24, 2015, 12:43 PM
May 2015

Free community college for qualified candidates would be good as well. Then an expansion of pell grants, more funding to colleges so that tuition can be reduced instead of raised, and income based repayment of loans.

That's the realistic solution. IMO.

 

GummyBearz

(2,931 posts)
35. We agree on something for the most part.
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:58 PM
May 2015

Tuition needs to be brought back in line to where it was in the 1970s. In the university of california system (keep in mind california has the second highest tax rate in the nation), the schools are so money grubbing that they take the tax dollars of californians who live here their whole life, but prefer to admit foreign students to UC's since the foreign tuition is double+ the in-state tuition. In the end, we are taxing ourselves but educating everyone else... its a great recipe for self destruction of everyone except the 1%, who will go to ivy league schools.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
18. I got my education that way. But I wonder how much that has been cut in the years since the 70s?
Sun May 24, 2015, 02:13 PM
May 2015
 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
3. I'm prepared to accept that IF you are qualified and IF you want to go
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:56 AM
May 2015

you should be able to go. However, I also think that there should be other government-funded programs, trade schools or whatever, for people who have no interest in college. "College for everyone" is a straw man, imo.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
14. That's what they do in Germany
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:17 PM
May 2015

In the 10th grade they choose either college prep or vocational school.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
41. And the German students
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:21 PM
May 2015

choose to get the grades and examination scores necessary to determine whether they will go on to either tech/vocational or university.

You are attempting to imply that it is a government authoritarian system. It is not.

1939

(1,683 posts)
45. NO, not authoritarian
Mon May 25, 2015, 08:07 AM
May 2015

But it is exclusionary.

What if we had a system where only those scoring 1300 or better on the SAT was admitted to a university (fully government paid) and everybody else (the "not worthy&quot had to go to trade school or just get a job?

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
46. I would be fine with it.
Mon May 25, 2015, 08:35 AM
May 2015

And students can re-apply later if their scores are not high enough. Though if you actually knew anything about the German school system you would know that by the time most finish Gymnasium, they have the equivalent of what we consider here a college degree or at least several years of college level education.

As a senior high school exchange student to West Germany in the mid 1980's, I was placed in their 10th grade class! I lacked two credits to graduate, was in academically gifted classes, and was one of the top in my school in the US. There, I was a 10th grader.

My parents taught college for almost 40 years. Not all who go to college are academically worthy of attending college. Racking up tons of student loan debt to get a degree that they will never use or maybe not even finishing school altogether is not helping them either.

The German system is far superior to our own, and I would take its implementation in a heart beat here.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
11. That's the argument the GOP used against Obamacare
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:11 PM
May 2015

Not enough doctors to treat everyone.

IT's a lame, gloomy and doom argument.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
21. Not everyone needs to, or even should, go to college.
Sun May 24, 2015, 03:59 PM
May 2015

If you're in college simply because you don't know what else to do with yourself, you're just taking a place from someone who might desperately WANT to be there.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
26. Honestly
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:25 PM
May 2015

that doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, better than the rah-rah of "Everyone MUST go to College!!!" mantra that has pulled in so many students unprepared for 4 years or more of higher education plus the high loans. Not everyone is cut out or qualified to be a college student and a system like that would surely weed out those who aren't or just not a fit for it; plus it would probably control the growing number of students that force these colleges to keep hiking the cost to build a fancy new library or student center or whatever.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
27. I always find it interesting...
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:35 PM
May 2015

That a guy hosting campaign staffers in his five-bedroom home in New York is always the first to show up and get sniffy about economic policy that helps the poor.

Turbineguy

(37,364 posts)
4. Well, they probably did not do that
Sun May 24, 2015, 12:04 PM
May 2015

during the '30's and 40's for sure. But yes, between tax cuts for the rich and "defense", the US could do that too. Easy

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
5. Two things, Taxes and national priorities.
Sun May 24, 2015, 12:28 PM
May 2015

Germany pays higher taxes than the US.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

Germany's priorities are very different than ours. They spend much less on national defense. With different priorities, they can choose to spend more on educaiton.

riverbendviewgal

(4,253 posts)
10. America's Elite are the ones who make money in America being the world's policemen
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:09 PM
May 2015

So of course, they want the taxpayers money to go to military industry, prison industry and policing. President Ike warned about this.

In my recent vacation visits I noticed that the public is being dumbed down. Fox News in most businesses. People do not know their history or their own country's geography.

Very sad.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
9. This is the key
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:07 PM
May 2015

In Denmark, the Prime Minister joked that for the military they should just have an answering machine. We could have so many things in this country if we just shaved off a percentage of what we give to the military.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
8. Germany and the rest of Europe depends on the USA to foot the military bill
Sun May 24, 2015, 12:47 PM
May 2015

Let Germany and the rest of Europe sort things out from now on and let the USA shrink its defense budget.

hunter

(38,325 posts)
15. Well, that's what our bloated and corrupt military industrial complex claims...
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:20 PM
May 2015

I suspect aircraft carriers and expensive fighter/bomber aircraft are obsolete at this point in history.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
39. It is strange how Germany and Japan
Sun May 24, 2015, 09:21 PM
May 2015

can have all this kind of thing because of the lack of military spending. We took on being the world's protector. We got too big on ourselves saving everybody in WWII. Now we pay the price for that.

Maybe we could leave Germany to itself on military issues. But that could be a little bit scary. Countries like Germany and Japan had a cultural tendency to think they were the master race and outright entitled to steal land and kill people because of that. But perhaps in this century they could believe that all they want but be unable to do anything about it.

After all these years, would the Germans continue to spend their high taxes on education and health care? Or is there a worry they'd use it for military buildup? I hope they are over it, but you hardly can know.



hunter

(38,325 posts)
13. It's worse than you think, it's not just "their citizens," it's EVERYONE.
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:12 PM
May 2015

If you qualify, even as a non-citizen, you're in.

It used to be pretty close to that in California for California citizens. I graduated debt free. When I started I was even getting grants for things like textbooks.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
25. Yup. California had arguably the finest higher-education system in the world
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:14 PM
May 2015

and it was free to all residents. Then St Ronnie of the Raygun came along and decided that "he" shouldn't have to pay for the education of people he didn't agree with.

 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
32. Fortunately I made it through by 1971, in 4 years of teaching my debt was gone. That is the way it
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:51 PM
May 2015

should be now. Raygun was the slickest car salesman in the world. Go figure,...the hero of the RWers.

tblue37

(65,483 posts)
16. While some Americans are bothered by the idea that not all students get to attend university,
Sun May 24, 2015, 01:21 PM
May 2015

as someone who teaches college, I wish we didn't shove most of our high school grads into college, especially now that they must go deeply into debt from the very start to attend.

About 65% of our high school graduates go right to college, but 30% of freshmen drop out or flunk out without ever seeing their second year. They are thus saddled with thousands of dollars of debt (which they can't discharge through bankruptcy!), with little hope of getting a decent job to pay it off.

Most American college students are ill prepared to handle college-level work. They lack foundational knowledge and skills, and most also lack maturity and do not really value education. They come to college because of ignorance and social pressure.

The ignorance I refer to is their lack of knowledge about what college costs, how much they're accumulating in nondischargeable debt (most don't even know college loan debt can't be escaped through bankruptcy!), how much more demanding college courses are, how much more rigorous the grading standards are, and how unlikely they are to find a job after college that pays well enough to enable them to pay off the huge debts they will be burdened with.

The social pressure comes from all sides. Their teachers and school counselors assume most of their school's students can and should go to college right after high school. The parents do, too, and recoil with embarrassment if their child resists the pressure and says he doesn't want to go to college, or that he wants to go eventually, but plans to take a gap year, or several gap years, first. Their friends are all excited about their college application process, about which schools they're getting acceptances from, about getting ready and then leaving for college. The kid who isn't going right after high school is left out of this excitement, and he is also subjected to the disapproval and/or pity of his peers, who can't help considering him either a loser or a fool.

If the kid is going right to college but plans to start at a community college, where he can accumulate required credits at 1/3 to 1/2 to cost of the same credits at a 4-year college, and where he can schedule classes in a way that allows him to work a job to help pay for school, he has marked himself as "lower class." And if he saves money by living with his family while attending college, whether it's a 2-year or a 4-year school, then he's viewed as pathetic.

The kid who postpones college for a semester or a year misses out on a lot of scholarship opportunities, so he feels pressure from that angle, too.

Another aspect of the social pressure is found in the (false) way college life is represented in popular cullture. Young people want the experience they've been led to expect from campus life and cannot bear to think of missing out on it.

There are a lot of other ways to train young people for adult careers, but our society blocks many of them while insisting on a 4-year degree as the only route to adult success. Furthermore, most of the options that we do allow are marked as declasse--even if they offer a more likely route to financial security. I know a LOT of people who have become quite affluent by training and working in a trade rather than by going to college, yet they always act embarrassed and apologetic about their lack of a college degree. Even worse, I know a lot of people with degrees, especially those with advanced degrees, who look down on even very successful people with valuable skills if those people don't have college degrees.

Unfortunately, most of the students who pour into our colleges and universities every year really are *not* ready for college-level study when they get here, and
many never will be. We would be doing them a favor if we didn't push them into 4-year colleges, but only if we stopped requiring a 4-year degree for any sort of entry-level employment or for admission to professional schools in fields for which the distribution requirements comprising the first two years of most college majors are simply irrelevant.

One of the courses I teach, "Introduction to Poetry," fulfills a distribution requirement. I love teaching the poetry, and most of my students really enjoy the course and learn to enjoy poetry. But if I ever need a brain surgeon or a lawyer, I don't care whether he knows the difference between iambic pentameter and trochaic hexameter. Nor should the employment certification for architects and engineers require them to incur extra debt to jump through such requirement hoops before being permitted to train and work in those fields.

I truly believe in the value of general knowledge of that sort, and I believe kids should be getting a whole lot more of such knowledge in their K-12 schooling. But we are stupidly (and expensively) using college for remedial education in essential reading, writing, and math skills, as well as for basic knowledge in history, culture, and the physical and social sciences. If our kids were learning foundational knowledge and skills (including time management and personal responsibility) in K-12 classes, employers and professional schools wouldn't need to require a 4-year college degree as a substitute sign that applicants might not be too ignorant, immature, and irresponsible to hire or to admit for professional training.

Then our 4-year colleges could be used for educating those with an interest in and aptitude for a specific kind of academic study, not for unnecessarily expensive remedial education and vocational training.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
17. Good post. We need to rethink our whole school curriculum. Teaching for the test is not doing
Sun May 24, 2015, 02:10 PM
May 2015

the job. Where I live we are trying many of the options you suggest. A lot of the foundation courses are allowed in high school giving college credit for the completion of the course. Also we have the trade and technical schools as part of the overall state college system. I have always liked the European style of education where the direction of your education is determined before you enter high school and gives a two route option to children based on there interest it further education and their aptitude.

As for learning the basics such as writing skill, reading, math and even history I think we do not give our children enough credit. They can learn a lot of things long before we think they can. They are being taught from the cradle on today in one way or another. We merely need to see that it is not Sponge Bob doing the educating.

For those who are worried about everyone getting to go to college I think they are forgetting something. There are a whole range of people who are not under any circumstances qualified to go to college in the first place. Like my developmentally disabled daughter.

My two grandsons quit high school because they were bored out of their heads. Both are extremely good at math and science but the school wanted them to do a whole bunch of classes they did not care about. Both have fairly good jobs without the college education. However one problem with taking that one or two year gap is that they tend to build a lifestyle that will keep them from going back to school. Both young men got married, had children and as I said got jobs. No time or money for college.

One works for his dad and has had classes that help him in what he is doing but do not gain a degree. He will someday replace his father as the boss. And he will no doubt continue with classes he needs.

The other learned to manage a store while working for a boss who really did not want to manage his own store. He used this education to move to another job and his management skills are so good that they have moved him from one department to the next getting their business working better. But the drawback on this is that he is going to reach the "degree ceiling" where they will not let him advance any higher because he does not have the degree.

In reading your post - you did not mention on-line education. I would be interested in knowing how you think this new development in education can work into what you were talking about.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
40. It's one of those tradition things people cannot get past
Sun May 24, 2015, 09:25 PM
May 2015

quickly.

It would be better to have training schools for careers. And let it be paid for by the industries. Big Pharma can pay for doctors.

It amazes me we take on ourselves the debt of paying for education to benefit employers. Make them pay for the training. We are so submissive to the employer in this country.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
19. No MIC choking their economy.
Sun May 24, 2015, 02:17 PM
May 2015

When you spend over half of your tax dollars on blowing shit up and killing people, like we do, it kind of means you don't get much else that a government actually SHOULD be doing.

Strelnikov_

(7,772 posts)
42. Ka-Ching . . . Spending as much as the rest of the world combined on defense is
Sun May 24, 2015, 10:36 PM
May 2015

well . . . a fuck-o lot of social spending up in smoke.

And all to get our ass kicked by some third-world backwater like Iraq.

underahedgerow

(1,232 posts)
20. Even Mexico sends worthy students to University and most European countries, in fact MOST countries
Sun May 24, 2015, 02:18 PM
May 2015

provide FREE education to University students with good grades and the willingness to do the programs. I remember the first time I was in Mexico talking to some cool local people, and I was so startled to learn that even if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer, your education is paid for. It's not Oxford or Harvard, but science and biology are taught to the same universal standards.

Now, keep in mind that these Doctors in these other countries aren't making money hand over fist, they make an average, livable wage like the rest of the educated population, unlike the USA where apparently it's mandatory for your doctor to have a yacht and a new BMW...

Oh and get this, doctors in France still make housecalls... any time of the day or night. It costs 30 bucks and most of it is reimbursable on the carte vitale, the national health care program. The difference is, he or she shows up in a VW, not a BMW.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
24. our bloated, corrupt Mic prevents us from having free school, upkept roads, healthcare,
Sun May 24, 2015, 04:08 PM
May 2015

cheap internet, and lots of other nice things.

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
28. I got free college....
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:36 PM
May 2015

Well.... after 4 years in the Marine Corps and participation in the Southeast Asia War Games (We came in second!)... I got free college.

Actually, it was better than that. My state paid my tuition and a stipend for books because I did pretty well.

Why not create a GI Bill for everybody? Students have to make specific progress - that takes care of the "not everybody is suitable for college" argument.

Many studies have shown that the GI Bill - the one I got - paid for itself if increased productivity, increased lifetime wages, and (not coincidentally) more taxes paid in.

College is a tool for social change, too. Economic mobility thru education. Which is one of the reason why the Repubs don't want college for anybody who can't afford it.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
30. My dad went to college though the GI Bill too and a got lifelong career for
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:42 PM
May 2015

his troubles. I like your idea of a GI Bill for everybody based on progress. My Dad was also a Marine in the mid 1950s,he stayed stateside though.

littlewolf

(3,813 posts)
31. I do like the idea of people going to college
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:49 PM
May 2015

if they are prepared for it. meaning primarily test scores.
I went to CC for a year and hated it. it was like 13th grade
same folks I went to HS with were there and it sucked.
had I gone to a different CC maybe different.
so I went into the military, 20 years later I got out
and found a job .. did it for 10 years, left it, and then found
another one.
now in a couple of years I will retire.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
33. Colleges is free in Louisiana
Sun May 24, 2015, 08:52 PM
May 2015

If you go to a state school have a 3.0 in high school and keep 3.0 in college. Europe doesn't send everyone to school. You have to test into it.

 

PRB

(139 posts)
44. Education is a right.
Sun May 24, 2015, 11:55 PM
May 2015

Just like health care. A college degree is like the old high school degree. You can't get a good job without a college degree. If we can publicly fund high school, then we can do the same for all college.

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