How many of the guns used in the Texas gang war were legal?

[Renew Deal]

It would be interesting to know how many guns were discovered in the Texas gang war. It would also be interesting to know how many were legal, especially from the group that is dead or injured. To me it seems that loose Texas gun laws made a gang war possible.

[AuntPatsy]

1. Sensationalism at its peak.....

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. The Gungeon will send a rep out shortly

to offer expert analysis.

[Renew Deal]

3. I expect no less

[NYC_SKP]

6. In all likelihood, most or all of them were illegal.

Possession by felons is illegal, and carrying a shotgun or rifle in a threatening or alarming manner is illegal.

There's your answer right there.

[okasha]

8. I think you're right.

The knives were certainly illegal, and depending on what's being described as "clubs," some of them might well be, too.

Last report I saw, the police had confiscated over 100 weapons.

[Renew Deal]

9. Are you assuming the owners were felons?

I hadn't seen that. Obviously the way they were used ended up being illegal, but my question was whether they were legally acquired and legally possessed.

[NYC_SKP]

11. I didn't mean to imply that they were, I merely pointed out two conditions that would apply.

That's all.

[okasha]

14. Probably not.

As SKP noted, convicted felons can't legally possess firearms, and you're not going to find spotless little lambs in organized crime.

[Codeine]

33. They were 1%ers. That's a self-selected subpopulation

with a notoriously high history of crime. Is say it's pretty much a given most of them were felons.

[Jesus Malverde]

47. Pretty obvious...nt

[840high]

54. I think you're right.

[Skittles]

42. cowards defend cowards

[upaloopa]

4. What was the fight about? Are they into

organized crime? Would they obey strict gun laws if that is what Texas had?
I doubt laws mean much to these gangs.

[Renew Deal]

5. The cops are calling it organized crime

But I'm sure you mean guns, drugs, prostitution, etc. I don't know about that.

Anyone willing to start a shootout with the cops present doesn't care much about the law.

[okasha]

12. The Bandidos have a fifty-year history

of dealing in drugs, prostitution and weapons. They're not just a bunch of guys who ride; law enforcement regards them as a "criminal syndicate."

[HooptieWagon]

10. Turf war.

Yes, the bikers distribute drugs, prostitution, auto theft (chop shops), B&E, selling stolen property, etc.. I'll hazard a guess that every one of them has a felony record, and a good number have done jail time.

[pnwmom]

13. I read that it was about parking in the restaurant parking lot.

Seriously.

But I also read a police spokesman saying that a fight among those groups could have broken out over almost anything.

[okasha]

17. Most of the stories I've seen

say the fight started between two guys in the RR, spread to the main space in the restaurant, then spilled into the parking lot, where gang members fired at police.

[Go Vols]

20. Saw that too.

[Ilsa]

25. I heard they were all there to

Confront one another over turf, etc. That a fight broke out over a parking spot is coincidental. It could have easily been over the color of nail polish on a girlfriend's hands.

[AngryAmish]

26. This was a gang summit and a fight started in the bathroom

http://www.agingrebel.com/12873


"The fight resulted from a long simmering dispute between members of the Bandidos Motorcycle Club and the Cossacks and the Scimitars Motorcycle Clubs. Curtis Jack Lewis, president of the Abilene chapter of the Bandidos, and Wesley Dale Mason, the chapters’ sergeant at arms, were accused of stabbing two Cossacks outside Logan’s Roadhouse in Abilene in November 2013. The two Bandidos were charged with aggravated assault in March 2014. The Scimitars are in the process of patching over to the Cossacks.

Other clubs in attendance at the Sunday brunch included the Blackett Arms MC, Gypsy MC, HonorBound Motorcycle Ministry, Renatus MC, Escondidos MC, Sons of the South MC, Los Pirados MC, Leathernecks MC, Vietnam Vets/Legacy Vets MC, In Country MC and the Tornado Motorcycle Club."

Read the while thing. This is from the bikies point of view.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. Leathernecks MC, Vietnam Vets/Legacy Vets MC, In Country MC?

These don't "sound like" 1% criminal gangs, more like motorcycling social clubs.

Strange bedfellows for a meeting like this.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. I'm starting to get the drift why the cops let this whole thing take place in the first place.

The Handful of cops I know are wanna be douche bag Harley riders.

Can you imagine a group of hippie anarchists with threats of violence being allowed to have their little get together?

[Skittles]

43. ?

LEO was trying to work with the restaurant management but were ignored, warning that violence was likely - that's why they were there

[Hassin Bin Sober]

48. "Working with" obviously doesn't mean "shutting it the fuck down"

Texas is famous for busting in to gay bars and flexing the extra authority the police have when a liquor license is involved. Where was the famous Texas liquor cops?

Two guys maybe smoking a joint in the bathroom = "everybody up against the wall!!!!"

A bunch of rightwing douche bags on Harleys with guns = "let's wait and see. There isn't much we can do"

[Skittles]

49. so, cops have too much authority

but I'm sure you'd be all for them busting in and shutting down a restaurant.......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/17/twin-peaks-management-police-deadly-brawl/27505571/

[snooper2]

61. I actually got busted smoking out of my one-hitter by a cop in a bar bathroom

He just made me dump the weed out in the toilet and let me keep the one-hitter LOL

Told me to keep that shit at home from now on. That was over 10 years ago, I never listened though

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

69. Hippie anarchists? Little get-together? ...

... oh, you mean the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago.

No, the little get-together was not allowed.

[Monk06]

45. In Vancouver we have the Sikh MC. They even have their own song.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

57. Does BC have helmet laws?

The turbans sort of look like helmets, but may not provide the same protection on impact.

Anyway, that's another group that doesn't look like a 1% outlaw group.

[Monk06]

60. Sikhs and anyone else who wears religious headgear is exempt. The law is basically for Sikhs tho.

[hack89]

38. The large motorcycle gangs are really international criminal syndicates

think Mafia on motorcycles.

[Lurks Often]

7. The correct answer is we'll probably never know for certain

A definitive answer would require the completed law enforcement reports from any or all of the agencies involved in the investigation and whether law enforcement will even bother to try and trace all of the firearms back to the initial retail sale.

[pandr32]

19. Do you trust the police?

Maybe little reported in the media is true...most of the information is coming from "law enforcement" who were there ahead of time and armed.

[Lurks Often]

21. Which has what to do with what I posted?

[Ilsa]

27. I would trust the police fully if the Texas Rangers were also

Involved in the investigation. I haven't heard that they are. But I would be surprised if they weren't. This type of situation falls within their scope of purpose.

[KamaAina]

35. Why on Earth would Yu Darvish be involved in the investigation?

[NutmegYankee]

15. Biker gangs are notorious around the world for being heavily armed.

They even manufacture their own automatic firearms in Australia, which has extremely strict gun control.

[99Forever]

16. In reality...

...local and state gun laws mean squat. Only federal regulations, enforced strictly by federal authorities would stand any chance of stemming the tide of rampant gun violence that gun culture has made everyday life in this nation.

And that sir, won't happen with the spineless turds we have in Washington DC.

[friendly_iconoclast]

30. "Only federal regulations, enforced strictly by federal authorities..."

Like the ones against trafficking heroin and methaphetamines, the outlaws' main
source of income these days? Australia tried that, and look what they're getting
for their troubles:

From 2009:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-12-11/bikie-arrested-over-home-made-machine-guns/2580142

Bikie arrested over home-made machine guns

Posted 10 Dec 2009, 8:35pm

Police say a bikie gang member is one of two men charged over the manufacture of sub-machine guns in western Sydney.

The 36-year-old alleged Outcasts member and a 43-year-old man were arrested yesterday afternoon.

Police say they searched a home at Charles Street in Blacktown at about 4.30pm where they say the illegal firearms were being made.

Officers allegedly seized a sub-machine gun a number of registered and unregistered firearms and firearm parts. The 43-year-old was arrested at the scene.

From 2013:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/jeweller-angelos-koots-admits-to-making-submachine-guns-at-his-seven-hills-home-and-supplying-them-to-bikie-groups/story-fni0cx12-1226760983916

Jeweller Angelos Koots admits to making sub-machine guns at his Seven Hills home and supplying them to bikie groups

A JEWELLERY maker produced sub-machine guns in his suburban home, selling them through an organised crime syndicate for $15,000 each.

Backyard arms trader Angelos Koots admitted making up to 100 of the perfectly constructed MAC 10 machine guns - more commonly seen in war zones and believed to have been used in Sydney gang shootings - at his Seven Hills house.

The guns, sold with two magazines and a silencer, were of such quality that during "Mythbuster" style tests alongside a genuine MAC 10 they fired 600 rounds a minute.

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. Also, *all* violence has been decreasing, not increasing in recent years...

...with violence via gun right alongside:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1995/95sec2.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1995/95sec5.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013

[99Forever]

37. How many gun deaths were there in Australia last year?

How many gun deaths were there in the USA?


Hmm?

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. Take a breather-moving those goalposts must have been hard work

I'm not unsympathetic; if I was shown empirical evidence that a claim I made
("the tide of rampant gun violence&quot was factually incorrect, I'd also prefer to change the subject


I should think most people would be *happy* to know that fewer people are dying in the US.

Then again, most people don't have a prohibitionist agenda with its accompanying
factose intolerance. These reposts from five years ago really ought to chap your ass:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/victoria-police-switches-to-semiautomatic-weapons-20100428-tt44?autostart=0

Victoria Police switches to semi-automatic weapons

Victoria Police officers will no longer carry revolvers as it switches to rapid-firing semi-automatic weapons.

Deputy Commissioner Kieran Walshe this morning revealed police would be rearmed with .40 calibre Smith & Wesson M & P (military and police) semi-automatic pistols.

‘‘The decision was not one that was made lightly, and followed an extensive investigation by an independent panel into their potential use and viability within Victoria Police,’’ he said.

South Australian Police have been using Smith & Wesson semi-automatics since last year.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-30/police-set-sights-on-faster-reloading-guns/416062

(Note:emphasis in the original)

Police set sights on faster reloading guns

Posted 29 Apr 2010, 7:23pm

The Police Superintendent in East Gippsland says new semi-automatic pistols will enable police officers to better defend themselves in a shoot-out.

The Victorian Government has awarded a $7 million contract to replace police revolvers with semi-automatic pistols.

The police union had previously claimed an officer in Melbourne was shot in the leg while reloading a revolver during a shoot-out in 2008...

..."Well they'll have 15 shots before they need to reload as opposed to previously they would've had to have taken some form of reload action after six shots and of course during that time we're trained to do that at reasonable speed, under pressure that can take a little while and put you at risk, so from a safety aspect we're very pleased that we've got that option," he said.

[99Forever]

50. Moved the goalpost?

You're the one who brought up the comparison with Australia. But obviously, numbers of actual gun deaths in the two countries blew your dumbass gunfreak meme all to hell, so you don't answer the most fucking basic question.

You lose. Bye bye.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. Yep. The "tide of rampant gun violence" has been ebbing for years

I called you on it, with verfiable statistics to back up my argument.

I also gave examples of a country that employs "federal regulations, enforced strictly by federal authorities" that still has violent biker gangs that are now acquiring homemade
submachine guns, and cops that have acquired more powerful firearms in response.

You responded with bafflegab. I refused to go on your guilt trip
and now you're angry and hurt.

Anhedonia over declining violent crime rates? Seriously?

This is why you lose- yours is an emotion-based cause.


I suggest a careful reading of Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer: Thoughts On The
Nature of Mass Movements"

[99Forever]

66. Warble gorble warble gorble.

Yay nuttin but more NRA propaganda.

You lose.

[friendly_iconoclast]

68. The gibes of the politically ineffectual carry little sting

[onehandle]

18. Probably all, if not most. The vast majority of gun crime is carried out by legal gun owners...

...with their own guns.

Gun nuts like to label gun crime as separate from them, but that's totally bullshit.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Got evidence?

[pintobean]

24. I'd like to see evidence, as well.

I don't believe that at all.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. That poster is what might be described as a Colonist:

From the late, great Sir Terry Pratchett:

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He'd been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a postgraduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me."- Jingo

[Skittles]

44. the majority of guns used in mass shootings are legally purchased

overall gun violence involves mostly illegal guns, mostly because of lax gun laws

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. This was not a mass shooting in the Loughner, Holmes, Cho, Hasan, Alexis sense.

It was massive and involved shooting but these were career criminals battling each other on behalf of their respective enterprises.

And while the above listed mass murderers did obtain their guns "legally" they did so not because of lax laws but because laws were not being properly enforced. In each instance the shooters had been reported as dangerous and each time the decision was made to not bother with the matter.

[Lizzie Poppet]

65. Perhaps...but that in no way supports onehandle's claim.

Mass shootings are a very tiny minority of gun crime.

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. As you put it, "(T)hat's totally bullshit"

[Lizzie Poppet]

64. Care to offer even a shred of evidence for that one?

Good luck...you'll need it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. The Bandidos are meth and coke traffickers. Are loose drug laws responsible for that too?

[Eleanors38]

34. While the question is worthy, this is a TOS violation....

I realize good argument and insights have come of the post, but broaching the subject on GD puts Guns back into GD de facto. There have been posts about the Waco incident which are really vehicles to bring up the usual gun politics in GD, usually with the right-off-the-bat "the gungeon wil! be along soon" or some such to set the tone. This forum has suffered/allowed this sort of thing before. It's not a balancing act. Either open up GD to guns or don't. If opened up again, I have plenty of original posts to contribute. I don't think most DUers wish to see a return to guns in GD, however, and have refrained from such.

[Renew Deal]

36. •Open discussion of guns is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered

Open discussion of religion is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978

[NYC_SKP]

56. •Love the dot.

Imma save that!

[etherealtruth]

40. Not an Sop violation, not a ToS violation

What can and cannot be posted in the General Discussion forum

From GD's Statement of Purpose

GUNS
News stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about efforts to strengthen or weaken gun control legislation in any jurisdiction in the United States, national news stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about high-profile gun crimes, and viral political content from social media or blogs that would likely be of interest to a large majority of DU members are permitted under normal circumstances.

Local stories about gun crime and "gun porn" threads showing pictures of guns or discussing the merits of various firearms are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted in the Gun Control and RKBA Group.

Open discussion of guns is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia.

Here's a link to the Terms of Service
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[Township75]

46. Texas loose gun laws caused this and Illinios strict gun laws caused all their gun deaths.

Now what do we do? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

[kelliekat44]

51. Most were probably stolen or received through drug trades. But you know that won't matter.

And I bet not one report will come back showing that no police bullet killed a biker. So the police will not be targets.

[Hoyt]

52. Most of the guns were originally purchased legally, then stolen or sold in a back alley to

avoid background checks. In either case, a supposedly responsible gun owner was the first purchaser.

Finally, a lot of the bikers could probably pass our lax gun law background checks, thank the NRA and independent gun fanciers.

[hack89]

53. What is so lax about the background checks?

what is missing?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. "A ban," I can imagine him wanting to type.

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. Guns get sold legally to people he doesn't like

He is one of those people that is bound and determined to "improve" society,
whether society wants to be improved or not...

[Kali]

55. "if guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns"

expect that would apply to the situation quite well

[malaise]

67. I don't know - they found over 1.000 weapons

including an AK47. Go figure.