CNN has the Texas shootings on now

[fadedrose]

about the Mohammad drawings or pictures..

It's over but they promise to have more on at the top of the hour, I guess midnight.

[Gothmog]

1. Garland is a small bed room community near Dallas

It is not a big town

[fadedrose]

2. The Jihadists have just introduced themselves

to this little town.

I know there's free speech, but these people are committed to keeping the name of The Prophet sacred. It seems such a small thing to ask to keep from getting killed. Keeping the artists alive is disobeying their religious rules I would imagine.

[eloydude]

3. Except the hosts are inciting violence.

Look up AFDI. American Freedom Defense Initiative - That's Pamela Geller's crackpot group.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Inciting violence how?

[linuxman]

5. Where did anyone involved incite violence?

The shooting is entirely the fault of the shooters. Just because someone did something a group of assholes didn't like, you can't fault them as a responsible party.

[blm]

45. Didn't you say in another thread you SAW this coming?

Why would you say that if you didn't see the event as inciting a violent reaction?

[linuxman]

56. the two aren't part and parcel.

I can read about a girl walking around Pakistan without a veil, denying suitors, or declaring her atheism and know an acid attack/ other sort of violence is soon to come too, but it doesn't mean that she was inciting violenc either. Doing something violent assholes don't like isn't inciting violence. Period.

[blm]

71. Just repeated what you said: You SAW it coming.

They SAW it coming, too.

They know THEY would have shown up with their rifles if an extremist Islamic group held a Bible burning event to taunt them.

They share the same mindset.

[linuxman]

78. .

Except people desecrate bibles and mock Christianity all the time. How many died over Piss Christ? Here in Afghanistan about a month ago, a woman was beat and stoned to death based on a RUMOUR of her burning a quaran. Your fantasy of your out group showing up to kill Muslims with rifles is fantastical.


Inciting violence isn't what you seem to think it us.

Is an atheist telling a Muslim that there is no God inciting violence?

Is a girl in a low cut top inciting rape?

Is a liberal at the RNC inciting a beating?

Is a gay kid in public school inciting teasing or worse?


Do you know what IS inciting violence? Clerics and imams who tell the date full to kill those who mock islam. That is inciting violence. Drawing pictures of a super special dead man isn't.

What you're doing is a victim blaming.

[blm]

82. No. I am saying that RW fundamentalist extremists burning Bibles in Texas

in the same highly advertised manner, would get a similar visit from gun toting RW fundamentalist extremists.

NOT unexpected. As you, yourself, previously stated.

[linuxman]

83. I doubt it. nt

[blm]

89. I don't. RW American fundie extremists have been doing it already when UNPROVOKED

like this moron who didn't even know the difference between Islam and Sikh. 'Ragheads' are fair game to America's RW fundamentalist extremists.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/reports-of-people-shot-at-sikh-temple-in-oak-creek-qc6cgc0-165059506.html

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Series-of-Hate-Incidents-Targeting-Muslims-Reported-in-Chicago-Area-293012981.html

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2960:targeting-muslims#

[razorman]

105. Whatever fantasies are held about Christians reacting violently to a hypothetical bible-burning,

the fact remains that, in this instance, it was the attackers who fired the first shots. Could be that they were simply suicidal, or did not realize that they were in Texas. Some results are indeed predictable.

[blm]

108. Uh….or whatever fantasies are held about RW extremist Christians shooting temples

of other religions?

Yeah…you're right….just a fantasy I concocted after spending the last 40 years paying attention newspapers.

[linuxman]

94. If those goalposts get heavy, feel free to set them down any old place.

Were we not talking about people burning bibles and the reprisals by Christians for doing so?

I'll make this easy for you. Do what I did. Google "Man burns Bible" and peruse the many links that follow. Now, compile a list of the names of the Bible burners who were killed by Christians in turn.

Should be easy.

[blm]

98. I said IF it happened on the same scale. Some of the crowd that showed up at Bundy Ranch

and Army of God-type groups (who TRULY DO believe their nation and their religion is under assault) wouldn't show up at that heavily advertised extremist Muslim event crafted specifically to incite?

Heck - Bundy ranch speeches and paranoia incited the Millers to go out and kill law enforcement.

Some RW Christian fundie extremist would show up with guns targeting the RW Islamic extremist's carefully crafted (to incite their expected violent reaction) event.

This event was crafted by evil people to appeal to the worst instincts in their side and their targets. That is how they view each other - as targets to hurt. Because both believe their religions allow them to get away with their sociopathic behavior.

You are the one who moved the goalpost. Man burns Bible acts were individual acts nowhere near in scale to the heavily advertised, carefully crafted event put on by the Gellar group.

[itcfish]

96. Sorry

But this is so obvious. They wanted to provoke a reaction, and they got one. Screaming fire in a crowded theater????

[linuxman]

97. Screaming fire is illegal because it induces panic.

Drawing the prophet doesn't. For danger to come from that, a person must sit down and come to a conscious decision and plan of action.

Kissing your boyfriend (if you're a guy) will lead to violence in many places. Would you say that someone choosing to do so is being provocative? Are they wrong to do so?


Not really comparable.

[LiberalAndProud]

80. Doesn't matter.

It is possible they got exactly the response they expected. Doesn't matter. Speech vs. violent retribution. In this country speech is protected. Always and whoever. Even assholes.

[blm]

81. Of course, I am saying that the result is not unexpected and

certainly wasn't unexpected by the poster to whom I replied.

[fadedrose]

6. Never heard of her

Will put her in search....thanks.

American Freedom is just that, and should end at the water's edge, or the front door. The Prophet is revered by Islamists here in the US as well as in the Mideast, and they don't hold with insults that Jesus gets that do not get Christians all excited.


Different rules for different folks. But inciting violence is not part of any religion. This is for nuts.

[Whiskey Jim]

7. inciting violence?

It's 2015. You shouldn't have to don body armor to participate in a contest to draw a historical figure.

[Skittles]

84. LOL

repukes think like that, while needing to be armed to go into a fast food joint

[blm]

112. Great catch and toss, Skittles.

.

[Skittles]

114. you know it, blm

yes INDEED

[hrmjustin]

10. Violence is wrong and the attack on them is wrong.

I think the group is a group if bigots but violence is wrong.

[GGJohn]

11. Not in the eyes of the law, they're not.

We have, in this country, the right to free speech, we don't have the right to not be insulted.
Any religion is open to ridicule, be it speech, toons, whatever.
I may abhor the message, but I'll defend the right to deliver it.

[X_Digger]

21. I wouldn't cross the street to piss on Gellar if she were on fire, but this isn't incitement. n/t

[kelly1mm]

32. Not even close to incitment. See Brandenburg v. Ohio (link below) for the definition of incitment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

[eloydude]

35. Don't want to look too far out...

But what if it was a setup arranged by Geller?

I know she's insane, but is she *THAT* insane?

[kelly1mm]

39. yeah she is a pretty big wackodoodle but I doubt this was a false flag. nt

[eloydude]

40. Right, we don't know yet.

Need more details about the dead suspects, before making the final judgement about the whole mess.

All we are doing is just speculating..... with no facts at hand right now...

[kelly1mm]

44. I see you are new here. Speculation is what DU does best! nt

[NobodyHere]

113. The tin foil hat is strong with this one.

[seveneyes]

77. Oh bullshit on that. This is America where you can make fun of stupid shit like religion

Even crackpots have the right. Fuck the religious killing shit.

[Raine1967]

53. This event was hosted by Pamela Geller.

http://news.yahoo.com/officer-shooting-muhammad-cartoon-contest-texas-005227724.html

This isn't about free speech, it was blatant celebratory bigotry.

[moondust]

63. CNN says she was quickly "whisked away."

She was apparently also an inspiration to Anders Breivik, the mass murderer in Oslo in 2011.

Celebratory bigotry indeed.

[GGJohn]

68. Sure it was, but it's still free speech. eom.

[TexasTowelie]

22. 235,000 population.

Bigger than a lot of cities and a suburb. Unless you pass the city limits sign you wouldn't know that you are anywhere but Dallas.

[fadedrose]

46. Tammywammy just told me that Garland is not a small town

You two get together, but it's really irrevelent.

It's Texas, and 2 gunman were shot who were incited to violence because of some lady named Geller at some meeting for American Freedom of Speech that encourages its members to make fools of themselves and Mohammed regardless of the consequences. And one speaker at the meeting was on Al Quaida's hit list.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. You are speculating. I repeat. The identities of the gunmen are NOT known.

Please wait before going full force. NONE of our local news stations (you really should start there if you are going to "report" on this) are broadcasting that the gunmen were "incited to violence." You were already wrong on your body count and ID. Please stop and wait.

[fadedrose]

54. Whoever told me that Geller was in charge of the meeting

said that her group incites violence. Can't recall who it was. Read all the posts - there are several on the topic and have different aspects. American Free Speech or something like that.

And after the incident in Paris where Charlie Hebdo and others wee killed because of disrespect to the Prophet, I don't think I just pulled a rabbit out of a hat to assume that the pictures showing disrespect had something to do with the attempted "killings?"

And they showed a chart on TV with some guy's picture who is on the Al Quaida "Hit List" and he was a speaker at the meeting/show, whatever.

I did not make anything up, except calling them Jihadists. But that's the name given to people who seek revenge to those who besmirch the name of their Profit.

And somebody told me that the town was small, a bedroom community, and someone said,"by the way, it's not a small town."
Read all the posts and see if can't track down where the disinformation came from.

I recommended CNN because it was coming on, and it did. Somebody got the news from Fox, and I never never watch Fox...

Thank you for reading all of my posts. Now read everyone else's and let them know where they're wrong too.

Thank you for your corrections.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. I gave you CBS because I figured you would say that about a Fox affiliate

It wasn't a link to FOX news.

Speculation is what can often lead to more violence. Your posts are all up and down this thread while other people appear to have stopped posting misinformation. I suggest you stay tuned into the local CBS affiliate I've posted here for you.

In case you were worried I was singling you out,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6616090

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6615938

[fadedrose]

58. If you look at the time of the posts,

as time went on I learned more. 11:01 was the first, and all I got was shooting in Texas, details coming up at midnight.. then people offered information that I didn't know yet... for instance, just now heard there were 200 people there. An hour ago, they said 100.

I'm done.

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. I'm looking at one of your posts now... where inaccurate info wasn't corrected.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6615938

Thank you for not reporting on this anymore because inaccuracies can sometimes beget horrendous reactions before the truth is known.

[tammywammy]

59. I posted the link to the local Fox affiliate.

Fox affiliates ? Fox News.

Regardless Googling "DFW news" would have provided you with more sources. Just like Googling "Garland, Texas" would have shown it's not a small town.

[tammywammy]

50. You've posted so much inaccurate information you should really delete this thread.

Please stop your bullshit made up reporting.

BTW, for anyone wanting the local reports I watch this station: http://www.fox4news.com/

[okaawhatever]

8. Now Pamela Geller will have a higher profile and probably more supporters. Ugh. Geller is

not the solution, she is part of the problem.

[TexasTowelie]

23. Agreed--expect her to use this incident to gain publicity. nt

[JaneyVee]

9. What happened?

[fadedrose]

12. Shootings in Texas

Last edited Mon May 4, 2015, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)

The following version of events was given by me because when Janey asked me, I really didn't know. Just heard about 2 killed. I assumed that the 2 were involved with the art contest, like with Charlie Hebdo.

Actually 2 gunmen were shot and killed in a car that may have had nothing to do with the meeting, repeat, MAY HAVE HAD ....

But by now, maybe they know...

The town may or may not have been small. Depends on what you call small, I guess.

All Wrong:
Some guys drawing or having pictures of Mohamed in a small town in Texas. Jihadists got wind of it, killed one guy and shot a couple - details on CNN at midnight.

Some lady named Geller belongs to some American Freedom Group that seems to incite people to violence.. this part was given to me by a DU'er, and I trust it.

[JaneyVee]

13. Really? Jihadists killed people at the event?

[fadedrose]

15. Breaking news on NOW on cnn

[ScreamingMeemie]

17. No. Two gunmen were killed and an officer was wounded.

here's a local station. That's all they know so far. Not even sure it's related yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/

[TexasTowelie]

33. See thread in LBN at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141083905

I have some posts from earlier that explain why the event was held:

Islam debate returns to Garland ISD’s Culwell Center with Muhammad art event (April)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107824864

$10K Muhammad Art and Cartoon Contest at Garland Site of ‘Stand With the Prophet’ Conference (February)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107823447

WATCH: Protesters surround conference put on by Texas Muslims: ‘You are not Americans’ (January)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107822943

[Raine1967]

52. +1 — EOM

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. Your facts are incorrect. One officer was injured. The two gunmen are dead.

They are not sure as of yet if the gunfire was related to the event or not, but it is definitely possible.

This is from the local news.

[fadedrose]

16. News was uncertain

Details on now

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. The news has been certain out of Dallas.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/

BREAKING: SHOTS FIRED AT THE MUHAMMAD ART EXHIBIT IN GARLAND Two men pulled up in car and began firing. Garland PD returned fire, killing both suspects.

[tammywammy]

19. You should watch the local DFW news then

I posted at 9:28PM central, the correct details and that was at least 20 min since I heard about it.

Here's the station I watch: http://www.fox4news.com/

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. I'm getting the feeling this poster doesn't care...

Because everyone knows CNN would know more.

[tammywammy]

28. Agreed. n/t

[tammywammy]

34. Btw, Garland isn't a small town. n/t

[TexasProgresive]

42. Garland is not really a small town

It's part of Greater Dallas. If you didn't see signs you would not know you drove from one town to the next. One genormus urban blob.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. This.

[fadedrose]

70. That was the headline I heard, the very first thing

They didn't say who was killed, but because of Hebdo, I assumed the guys drawing the pictures were the ones that the Islamists were mad at.

it makes more sense that the corrected way, that 2 guys in a car were shot.

There are a couple of posts in GD that think there was funny stuff going on because the security guards didn't look like security guards, and that Geller is trying to get folks all riled up with the Islamists.. I think Archae has one, not sure of the other...

I didn't bother to go back and correct because I was busy listening to the reports, which are confusing. They are still talking about it

now... But I will go back and fix. NO ONE gave me the information in the above post, but was typing fast and there was nothing that made sense.

If the guys were still in their car, how does anyone know who they were or what they intended?

[fadedrose]

20. Islamists killed - 2 in a car shot

they are checking the car for explosives.
One guard at the building was shot, and released from the hospital.

One of the speakers was on the Al Qaida hit list and was not harmed, nor were any of the 100 or so who were at the art show.

Still, American Freedom group or not, we respect that our blacks and browns don't want to be referred to as ..... I don't even want to type the N, and because if it so offensive to them, we don't do it, except for crazy racists.... Aren't there enough people to make fun of besides Mohammed?

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. No one is reporting "Islamist" locally here.

http://www.fox4news.com/

They are suspects. Dead suspects, and this has been known for some time. The police are not saying much yet.

[Whiskey Jim]

29. Lots of people make fun of others

Everyone has the right to be offended, nobody had the right to kill for the offense.

[tammywammy]

30. No local news has identified the dead suspects.

It wasn't a guard, it was a Garland ISD police officer.

You should delete your speculation.

[liberal_at_heart]

31. That's a good point. Everyone has their breaking point on what they consider acceptable and what's

not. Talking about raping women for example. How many people here would defend the right to talk about raping women? There are people out there that would just love to piss Muslims off enough to pick a fight with them. They want the fight. Now any Muslims in the area will be fair game.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. I would point out that religious groups and persons regularly denigrate LGBT people and the fact

that we don't want to be denigrated is of no concern to them nor to those who defend them. So your affectation that it's all fuzzy sweet words except for 'the crazy racists' will not work. And I never see you or any of the folks who defend religion when it gets violent being critical of the incitements offered daily by religion, from the Pope to the church down the street.

[jaysunb]

24. Why were there armed SWAT teams guarding this event ? n/t

[GGJohn]

26. There may have been a report of a threat of violence directed at this event. eom.

[TexasTowelie]

36. See post #33.

I've provided a run-up to this incident beginning with events in January.

[Whiskey Jim]

37. When it comes to drawing the prophet

You seen to have a chicken and egg scenario.

[metalbot]

38. The event center forced event organizers to put $10k towards security

Ironically enough, organizers were upset about this and threatened to sue, but ultimately complied.

They had Garland SWAT on site as part of their paid security.

[Skittles]

85. because repukes love taxpayer-paid protection for their bullshit

yeah the organizers had extra security but the school had extra cops there

[enid602]

41. scenario

Would the scenario have been that much different if the venue had instead booked a well-advertised event meant to insult Christians? In Texas?

[ScreamingMeemie]

48. Although it's being "reported" here differently, none of the actual facts of the case

are know (per local news reports), so we will have to see whether your post is worthy for thought with regard to this situation.

What the news actually knows:

Shots fired
Guard hit
Two gunmen dead (no ID, no religious affiliation ID'd, nothing-in fact bodies haven't even been moved yet)
Gunmen were in car.

That's it.

[Raine1967]

49. CNN was reporting this as a *Free Speech* event. Horse shit… It was a HATE EVENT. LINK:

It was a hate event organized by Pamela Geller.

Pamela Geller, president of the AFDI, told the AP before Sunday's event that she planned the contest to make a stand for free speech in response to outcries and violence over drawings of Muhammad. Though it remained unclear several hours after the shooting whether it was related to event, she said Sunday night that the shooting showed how "needed our event really was."

http://news.yahoo.com/officer-shooting-muhammad-cartoon-contest-texas-005227724.html

[Algernon Moncrieff]

60. No - the hate is what Jihadists did killing Theo Van Gogh and threatening Molly Norris

Draw-the-Prophet events are Muslin-baiting, I'll grant. HOWEVER

...it's no worse than the artist who put a crucifix in a jar of urine. No one killed him.

No one killed Sinead O'Connor for tearing up a photo of the Pope.

Flag burners are pretty universally despised, and they don't even get arrested, much less shot-at.

It's a Free Speech event inasmuch as no members of any faith have any right to resort to violence as a result of perceived insults to their deity.

[Raine1967]

66. My feeling is this:

This event was hoping for people to be killed.

Geller is no satirist. She is representative of a faith. She is not an artist.

Geller is a hate peddler. This was not about faith. It was a contest for people to draw pictures of Mohammed.

It was a contest.

[Act_of_Reparation]

72. Let me get this straight:

A bunch of fundamentalist Christians bait a bunch of fundamentalist Muslims into gunfight with blasphemous pictures of Mohammed, and this is not about faith?

Could have fooled me.

[beam me up scottie]

76. I KNEW that was coming.

I freakin knew it.



Now we have to defend christian bigots on DU.

Great.

[stranger81]

79. It's about vicious, vile haters on BOTH sides.

There are no good guys here. Geller, Wilders and their ilk are atrocious people.

[Skittles]

86. yup

they are both disgusting

[blm]

95. Simple, accurate observation. Yet it is getting turned around to accuse

the majority of DUers with that view of being against free speech. What a croc.

[AlbertCat]

99. Just would like to highlight....

Please note the AFDI is HQed in New York.... not TX and not the South. This was obviously engineered to achieve these very results.


This is the RW using over-religious people for their own nefarious ends....again.

But the religion, which is what it is about, enables them. Religion is the problem. This scene would never have been enacted had the Muslims not shown how easy they were to rile up.... and hateful Christians had a method for making it happen.

[blm]

104. EXACTLY!!!

.

[TexasTowelie]

51. Listening to the news.

One of the people attending the meeting was already speculating about the suspects having beards, carrying incendiary devices and calling them jihadists. Yet there hasn't been any actual news reports to support those statements. I wonder if any of my RW acquaintances were at the meeting?

[jaysunb]

57. This is all very suspicious

Too many things that don't add up. As I ask in my other post, "why and who would assign a SWAT unit to the event.
There's a picture in the CNN story of the organizer posing with a SWAT team prior to the event.
Why are the reports and comments all calling the dead men, "gunmen?"

This shit stinks to high heaven.

[tammywammy]

61. The event has to provide extra security.

They're called gunmen, because they drove up and started shooting.

[jaysunb]

65. SWAT teams are now providing security at private events ?

Please excuse my ignorance.

[tammywammy]

67. I'm not sure.

I'd also read there were threats against this event. I know you can hire off duty police for events, but don't know all the details for this.

[jaysunb]

69. The CNN reports show a picture of the organizer w/ a SWAT

team prior to the event. A show of force type photo. I didn't realize taxpayer dollars were supposed to provide this kind of service. And don't SWAT team members go to great lengths to hide their identity ?
Nothing that I've read addresses who these supposed gunmen were or how the shooting happened.
This smells like a classic "false flag" to me.

Mark my words, this whole story will have a different read by morning.

[GGJohn]

75. Tax payer dollars weren't paying for these SWAT officers,

the event organizers were paying the city for them, also, SWAT officers don't go to great lengths to hide their ID's, at least not where I live, we all know who they are.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

62. People who have attempted to exercise their free speech and free press rights sometimes end up dead

Google "Theo Van Gogh" and "Molly Norris"

[Scootaloo]

74. And sometimes they get murdered just for existing

Google the names Rubén García Villalpando and Alfred Wright.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

87. Horrible, to be sure, but were either of them drawing pictures of a prophet?

Were they harmed or threatened by people offended by drawings of a prophet?

[Scootaloo]

88. No, they were murdered by people offended by the fact that these men existed.

[blm]

90. Mutual hatred and sense of offense.

.

[blm]

73. No kidding.

Either way, the result seems very EXPECTED.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. So your theory is that minority groups that are subjected to denigrating speech should respond with

violence so that the hate speakers come to expect retribution and thus might shut the fuck up? Please understand that denigrating speech toward LGBT people is a major stock in trade for both Christianity and Islam. Rick Warren, Obama's choice for the inauguration, had just called LGBT people criminals and pedophiles when Obama chose to elevated him. Each day, Popes, Bishops and preachers verbally denigrate LGBT people, make accusations against us and claim God hates us.
I reject your theory that violence is called for. Instead I simply point out that the LGBT community is morally superior to the religious communities that attack us, we are spiritually advanced beyond their petty faiths. So they attack, we make jokes about them, they attack, we draw funny comics about them, they attack, we create. Of course creation is an aspect of the divine while destruction is the definitive trait of evil.

[blm]

93. Not at all.

What I am stating is that Gellar's group of RW fundamentalist extremists CRAFTED their event specifically to goad the RW fundamentalist extremists into violence.

I don't let any hate-filled RW fundies off the hook for their extremism. They use their religious beliefs as a cover for their own criminally insane desires to hurt their 'perceived' enemies of their chosen 'religion'.

That is all - no one is excusing violence. Just not staying silent about the deliberation put into the roles being played by both sides.

[Act_of_Reparation]

100. Why is religion in scare quotes?

You think these people don't really believe?

[blm]

101. I think most don't. I think many people USE 'religion' to excuse their

personal biases, and, in an increasing number of cases, their sociopathic tendencies.

[Act_of_Reparation]

102. Why do you think that?

If someone says they believe, I have to take their word for it unless there is demonstrable evidence to the contrary.

[blm]

103. Their words and actions are usually demonstrable evidence to the contrary.

Many now claiming to be followers of Christ act nothing like the Jesus Christ they claim as their leader. In fact, they act the opposite. Today's Republican brand of Christians would side with the moneychangers and, citing stand your ground, they'd pull out their guns and shoot Jesus as a credible threat after he tossed the first table.

[Act_of_Reparation]

106. I'd start pumping my breaks right about here:

Many now claiming to be followers of Christ act nothing like the Jesus Christ they claim as their leader. In fact, they act the opposite.

There is more to the Bible than the story of Jesus and the moneylenders, and there's more to Christianity than simply the Bible. It is a widespread socio-cultural institution that displays quite a high degree of cultural variance. It is impossible, therefore, to define the religion propositionally. It can only be described very generally.

But that's neither here nor there, as how people act is not always a reliable indicator of what people believe.

[blm]

107. No kidding, and here I thought I was using one example…you know, as an EXAMPLE.

There is a huge difference between TODAY'S hate-based REPUBLICAN CHRISTIANS and the Christianity I adhered to from an early age that was based in emulating the life and teachings of Christ.

If you're going to pump brakes at that, then I would say your intention was never to read what I wrote as an example.

Really….who would do that?

[Act_of_Reparation]

110. I read what you wrote.

It is my contention that what you wrote is unintelligible, and indicative of a profound failure to appreciate the complex vicissitudes of culture and history, as well as a stunning lack of forethought.

First the obvious: there is no "correct" Christianity, least of all the type described in you. For thousands years, people describing themselves as Christians did things many would consider un-Christ-like, but let us stick to your words. The filth embraced by TODAY'S hate-based REPUBLICAN CHRISTIANS was first put to paper by YESTERDAY'S hate-based DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIANS in the mid 1800's, which was itself based upon the medieval scrivenings of LAST WEEK'S hate-based PROTESTANT REFORMERS. The conservative Christian is not an uncommon or particularly modern invention, and even the American strain of this notably volatile breed has been around long enough to develop a widespread following and relatively coherent culture.

TL;DR: their religion is no less legitimate than yours.

Now, onto implications:

You think that people who do bad things don't really believe because Jesus wouldn't do bad things. If we ignore for a second that Jesus (allegedly) did do bad things, and follow this back-assward logic to its colonic conclusion, you find a very nifty escape hatch through which religion may immediately jump if ever criticized.

But this isn't an especially accurate or particularly useful approach to religion. There's quite a bit of objectionable material in the Bible, objectionable pages in the history of the religion, and objectionable religious practices which are still embraced even today. But rather than tackling these problems head on, you're suggesting we simply pretend they're not real, or that they don't actually inspire people to do bad things.

You're also by implication claiming that everyone who has ever done anything bad has been an atheist. And, as an atheist, I appreciate that none too much.

[blm]

111. I clearly said these people USE their warped view of religion to excuse their evilness.

You can attempt to put words in my mouth all you want - I think you're posting for your own amusement and don't give a rat's patootie what anyone actually says in their posts, so you play to what you CLAIM is being said. Utter BS move on your part.

And I am an atheist, dude - one who cares little for your lectures on what I should think of the way I SEE PEOPLE ACT while claiming to be doing it in the name of their god.

Gee - I suppose you follow John Fugelsang and argue with HIS observations of Republicans distorting religion, too, eh? He's a much meatier target for you. He's even a public figure at this point. Have at it.

[Act_of_Reparation]

115. I am able to read.

I clearly said these people USE their warped view of religion to excuse their evilness.

Yes, that is what you clearly said. And it is a point I've roundly defeated twice now, yet you persist in presenting it while simultaneously claiming I've somehow failed to grasp the true meaning of your infantile ramblings.

I think it pretty well demonstrable that there is no such thing as "true" religion; and if there is no such thing as "true" religion, then you can't fucking well have a "warped" religion, either. The Fundies may profess belief in some truly horrendous, despicable shit, but these beliefs are no less religiously valid than those you or I may find more palatable.

And I am an atheist, dude - one who cares little for your lectures on what I should think of the way I SEE PEOPLE ACT while claiming to be doing it in the name of their god.

This is a discussion forum. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, perhaps this is wrong venue in which to air out your laundry.

Gee - I suppose you follow John Fugelsang and argue with HIS observations of Republicans distorting religion, too, eh? He's a much meatier target for you. He's even a public figure at this point. Have at it.

No thanks. I avoid the Huff Po like the fucking plague.

[Quantess]

109. I propose that we need more Mohammed Art Contests in the U.S.

Keep it going, until the message finally becomes clear for everyone, that Americans still have the 1st Amendment right to make fun of and/or insult idiotic, primitive, religions!

Any Islamic extremist who doesn't get it, needs to get the fuck out of any of the hospitable western societies that allowed them to immigrate there without any consideration to the original cultures to which they emigrated. Western societies need to demand that Muslims (extremists like everyone else) respect women, respect gays, respect transgendered people, and respect our right to make fun of their dumbassed Mohammed.