Some advice for Sanders supporters

[struggle4progress]

Last edited Sat May 2, 2015, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)

Many of us are yellow dog Ds who will cheerfully support whoever rises to the top of the primary heap because, frankly, the Rs nowadays are stark raving nutjobs. Right now, I'm hoping Clinton and Sanders won't be my only choices in next year's primary, but I'll be hitting the streets hard for GOTV no matter who our nominee is.

It is essential to turn out our voters in November 2016 because we need Ds not only in the Oval Office but in the statehouses and Congress as well. This means we really can't afford bloody primary battles: when the primaries are over, we need to be able to coalesce quickly against the bonkers berserkers

It's reasonable to expect Clinton to attract big donors and to run fairly traditional and expensive media-intensive campaigns. Sanders will have much less money and will need to run grassroots campaigns with costs offset by considerable volunteer manpower. No matter how much money you can give Sanders, he will need a lot of volunteers.

Clinton's advisers may aim at the big electoral vote states, since the political establishment seems to have dumped the fifty-state strategy. That may serve Clinton well -- but long-term D wins in the statehouses and Congress may be more likely under a fifty-state strategy. The fifty-state strategy served us rather well while it persisted, and Sanders might build some support by attempting to reinvigorate that strategy. Those supporting Sanders, not because they expect him to win primaries but only because they think he might force issues to the table, should realize that their ability to influence a Clinton administration could depend in part on what they might bring to a Clinton campaign in 2016 -- and therefore such Sanders supporters should think careful about how the primary fights might build D organization in states. Here it might be helpful if Sanders took some stands that effectively supported some existing grassroots movements, such as a $15/hr minimum wage, because that's both right and expedient.

We probably know how the Rs will attack Clinton from the right: she's been a visible target for years, and the Rs have warehouses full of old playbooks which they will dust off and recycle; she's been dealing with that for years, and everybody now has some idea how to handle it.

Sanders has been less of a target because he's been in a safe seat from a small state but the Rs will predictably use the word "socialist" -- which to many Americans is indistinguishable from "totalitarian." Sanders supporters need to think through responses here, and the sooner the better. The unfortunate reality is that only experience can teach what works as a response: to get the needed experience, it's necessary to talk to the public in different places, trying different things until appropriate intuition develops. Perhaps a good place to start would be to think through how to respond to inevitable questions such as, "Is Sanders a socialist?" Since the Senator has called himself a democratic socialist, you aren't allowed to accuse the questioner of red-baiting. A good answer is very short, factual, and informative: it will not be a philosophical diatribe that you yourself find emotionally satisfying but it will relate a concrete and practical aspect about (say) the Senator's stand on a living wage, medical care, or public education. It's impossible to predict in advance what works without some experience with the public -- and that experience will differ from place to place: an answer that works great in Burlington VT (for example) may bomb in Ft Worth TX. The sooner potential Sanders volunteers start learning what sort of conversations work where they are, the better.

Lots of people don't like phone-calling or tabling-on-the-streets or door-knocking -- but one-to-one contact really works, and it works especially well if you know people's names. Boots-on-the-ground is authentic campaign work, and it can occur under-the-radar of the opposition if you're smart about it. Databases are available (at some cost) if you want to try to reach out to likely D voters. It takes surprisingly little in the way of manpower to start reaching out to people, and they'll be especially friendly if you're really offering them information they don't have.

[randys1]

1. GET OUT THE FUCKING VOTE GOTFV but, many will NOT be allowed to vote, if unconstitutional ID

laws are allowed to stand.

If polling places are made harder and harder to find and get to in minority neighborhoods.

Please follow my twitter account link below and help me document voter obstruction.

[Buzz Clik]

30. this might be a good time to ensure that all potential voters...

... have the necessary i.d. to allow them to vote.

Waiting until election day to, once again, piss and moan via a keyboard accomplishes nothing.

[randys1]

57. Unconstitutional to require ID...see how this works is they create a hurdle that is ILLEGAL

and we eventually give in

BULLSHIT

I dont know how we are going to fix this, it is ridiculous


ID is used when REGISTERING...

you cant require an ID to vote unless the govt comes to you, finds you, hands you the ID

[Buzz Clik]

59. Give in? Until the law is declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, it's the law.

"Not giving in" means not voting, and that accomplishes nothing.

[JonLP24]

90. Most of us that has a residence is fine & will be there

The GOP's War on Voting, which among many things includes Voter ID laws which can affect the homeless or the very working poor who may or may not give them time to vote but if you're in a situation where you're living day-to-day, sleeping where-ever, scraping by on just whatever can you get you through the day could also be missing a Birth Certificate, a SS card, & an ID (especially if you're not from the state, if you're than it shouldn't be too hard to get a replacement but for a new you like 4 things which becomes a catch-22 overall to get anything. I know someone, I haven't seen her recently, who for the longest time kept talking about needing to get an ID but could never come up with the 4 forms of ID (if there is no picture, if one is a picture than you need just 2 so she kept asking about a made up work ID but I don't remember a work ID being an acceptable form on the DMV page. She also has to deal with what's on her plate as well as keeping her immediate family together who is also homeless. They moved here from Ohio because things were out-of-control so they thought they needed a change, they got one alright.

What I'm saying, the Republicans aren't out there worrying about whose not voting -- no, it helps them when fewer people vote so they've been putting a massive effort to make it harder to vote. Put some regulations that kills "Rock the Vote" or "ACORN", they significantly curtailed over half the early voting days in Florida & Ohio, 70% of early voting went for Obama so it helps to find time to those who have a job & only have enough time to get there on time. With the early voting days cut in Florida put pressure on the understaffed polling agencies since all those early voters showing up when its limited. They locked the doors with the crowd chanting "Let us vote" in Florida. They opened it back up but there were too many voters by the time the hours ended there were people still in line waiting to vote -- living in urban centers with these crowded lines is why there often is turnout gaps

[randys1]

61. Giving in by allowing unconstitutional laws to be put in place in the first place

then once in we start discussing the issue as if the law is legal, it isnt

Of COURSE we want to vote, please follow my twitter account and help me document voter obstruction

[Cosmic Kitten]

2. When Bernie wins the primary...

I hope Hillary gives him
lots of her campaign cash

It would show she really
cares about getting the
Democratic nominee elected

[Thinkingabout]

3. Getting Democrats elected is a big purpose for DU.

[mythology]

7. I'm not sure that's legal.

Candidates can request donors donate to other candidates, but I don't think they can just give unspent donations to another candidate.

[Agschmid]

18. It's not really, haha.

[brooklynite]

48. You DO know that Campaign "A" can't give Campaign "B" "lots of cash"?

They're limited to the same amount any PAC could give ($5,000).

[Snotcicles]

51. I think they can give it to the National Committee though. nt

[brooklynite]

52. Nope...same limits

Check the FEC website for details

[Snotcicles]

56. Give it to the party than. nt

[blm]

4. Sanders team should highlight his brand of socialism as defined by Einstein and Henry Wallace.

Heck even Lucille Ball. ; )

[struggle4progress]

22. Hardly anybody will remember who Henry Wallace was; and his background was progressive Republican

Henry A. Wallace was a registered Republican and would remain so until 1936, but he belonged to the progressive wing of the party and had campaigned for Democratic candidate Al Smith. Wallace was one of three Republicans whom Roosevelt appointed to his cabinet

He did accept communist support in his 1948 run for President on the Progressive ticket, but the campaign crashed and burned, earning less than 3% of the popular vote and not one elector

Lucille Ball's "socialism" won't help at all:

... The nation’s top television star and her costarring husband were interviewed at home as the House Un-American Activities Committee released the transcript of her secret testimony before it ... As she had in her sworn testimony before the committee, Lucy insisted she knew nothing of politics in 1936 and registered as a Communist only to please her grandfather, Fred Hunt, who was a zealous Socialist ... A story of a loving, close-knit family that humored the wishes of a doting grandfather emerged yesterday from the transcripts of testimony by the mother and brother of Actress Lucille Ball. Mrs. Desiree E. Ball and her son, Fred H. Ball, now a salesman in Scottsdale, Ariz., both testified they had registered to vote communist in 1936 as the actress did to please “Grandpa” ...

Einstein wrote an article Why Socialism? in 1949 but it seems useless to me

[blm]

28. Wallace has become better known with internet shares of his anti-fascism commentary.

And everyone knows the NAME Einstein.

The point about Lucille Ball is that she was beloved widely, and still is, and socialism didn't make her a bad person, did it?

Persona plays much larger to the general public than details. I thought you asked for simple answers to the expected simple 'socialist' taunts from the GOP. Perhaps I read that part wrong.

[JonLP24]

93. I knew someone who worked out at California

She is from Huntington Beach so I'm not sure if same place she mentions is in Huntington Beach or not but there was a Golf Course -- resort came across a lot of rich people who would basically pay you to do anything, take their wife out shopping so they can enjoy their time at the course. Basically, a towel boy could be contracted out to do a host of many services. She says they host the Bob Hope Classic there.

She tells me about the time when she was walking her dog, she told me she was like the "meanest bitch" her words. I don't know if she was, it was from her perspective but she mentioned so many instances of meeting the rich & famous in a way that is casual like my mom who has met many when she used to work at the Raddison next to Sun Devil Stadium. Seeing KISS very pale by the swimming pool, heard a co-worker make a big deal about Dennis Miller checking in, one she does hype is meeting Walter Conkrite. I'm not sure what it was but I think she was doing a typical room check saw it was Walter Cronkite apologized and said he was nothing but class. All respect, no attitude nothing.

Lucille Ball's story is very similar to the movie The Majestic, a film writer signs a Communist sheet to impress a girl -- a very good movie, I like that kind of patriotism. Very small town hurt by World War II, takes a stand against the Senate Testifying Committee.

On edit -- I remember the name of the resort was Palm Springs, I remember at first I kept confusing it as a name of city so I got the Huntington Beach -- Palm Springs mixed up. I thought for the longest time Palm Springs was the name of the town she was working at.

[daredtowork]

69. You seem to be living in the past, re: the kneejerk association of socialism with totalitarianism

Your views here are dusty relics of the cold war, and I suspect they will easily be overcome when threats to Social Security are brought up among the same age group that still remembers the cold war.

I agree with the other comments that you seem to be obtuse about the grassroots efforts/capabilities of DU members.

[blm]

80. huh?

Perhaps you didn't mean to reply to my post?


I didn't say anything to warrant your reply.

[daredtowork]

83. Yes I meant to reply to the OP

Not sure how I ended up replying to your comment.

[tblue37]

5. Did you mean yellow dog Dem? A blue dog Dem is pretty conservative--sort of Republican light. nt

[struggle4progress]

8. yep. thanks for the correction

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. Freudian slip I guess n/t

[deutsey]

67. LOL

[L0oniX]

75. LMAO

[Rex]

81. No doubt.

Good call and you are 100%, a slip and now they change it...funny how one can give 'advice' to a party they seem to know nothing about!

Interesting right?

[Rex]

79. Funny how they want to give advice, yet have no idea about the Democratic Party.

Well...I guess that is funny.

[cali]

6. you make some good points, but let me correct you on this:

Here it might be helpful if Sanders took some stands that effectively supported some existing grassroots movements, such as a $15/hr minimum wage, because that's both right and expedient.

He's been on that consistently. No if about it. He has been in the forefront of grassroots movements. Evidently you are wholly unaware of his positions. Interesting.

The answer to your question about Bernie being socialist? easy peasy.

"Senator Sanders proposes mainstream and popular solutions to many problems. He does not propose socialist solutions like government taking over banks or any other industry."

And by the way, that answer is a good stepping off point ANYWHERE in the country.

And you seem to think that people here on DU have little experience doing the grunt/ground work on political campaigns; I suspect that you are wrong about that.

[struggle4progress]

10. Thanks. It's great if he supports $15/hr

because there's a fast-food workers movement for that, and I'd like to see some cross-fertilization there

[cali]

14. No if. Bernie has long advocated for a living wage- as in for many, many years

and he's worked toward that as Mayor, rep and Senator. The latest:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/a-livable-wage

more:

An Economic Agenda for America: 12 Steps Forward

<snip>

5. The current federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour is a starvation wage. We need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. No one in this country who works 40 hours a week should live in poverty.

<snip>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/an-economic-agenda-for-am_b_6249022.html

[struggle4progress]

25. I don't mean "living wage" -- I mean $15

[cali]

34. advcated specifically for that too. Hey, what's Hillary's position?

I'm sick of your demands, dear. Do your own frickin' research.

It's clear to me you know jack about Sanders or these issues. You appear clueless.

[struggle4progress]

41. Clinton will probably have enough $$$ to buy organization so she may not need

to motivate a dedicated cadre of grassroots volunteers, though plenty of women would probably step forward to help her campaign

Sanders, on the other hand, with fewer dollars available, has more reason to cultivate friends in specific movements, which is why I mention in particular $15, rather than merely a living wage

[Dragonfli]

45. There is no conflict, a living wage is higher than $15/hr in most (but not all) places

When one speaks of a living wage one usually says $15/hr may be a good START to achieving such a goal, I know I do.
But a living wage means just that, enough to live on wherever one may live, including places like San Francisco and Manhattan where a living wage would be quite a bit more.

[cilla4progress]

16. Good start but

more material needed. Still to amorphous and stated in the negative.

How about:

- Social Security and Medicare are socialist enterprises. That is, we don't leave our aged to the whims of capital.

- Our state universities are supported with public funding

- Roads, bridges - infrastructure

- Heck - anything supported with public funds include cops, firefighters and our service members in the armed forces! If this was all left to capital and profit, they wouldn't exist

[cali]

17. I suggest reading his economic plan for America which covers all that- and more

[cilla4progress]

43. We are definitely going to need

talking points!

I am gratified to have "socialism" part of the mainstream lexicon.

Like on so many issues, conservatives have taken symbolism to indicate substance ("marriage," "feminism," "patriotism," "journalism," "evil," "Christianity&quot .

It is a superficial, dumbed-down, and lazy view of the world.

[Marr]

9. I'd be as interested in Karl Rove's advice.

Blue Dog 'advice'.

lol.

[struggle4progress]

11. Have a lovely day

[L0oniX]

74. LMFAO

[okaawhatever]

12. K & R nt

[treestar]

13. That sounds like practical advice

You corporatist!!! I'm voting my principles and only Bernie is not a corporate sellout!!!!!! Arrthhh111111111

[BrotherIvan]

20. You got it right this time.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. You don't even seem to know Bernie's positions. His candidacy will be a big voter draw here in

Oregon. We already tend to vote in larger numbers than most States due in great part to the vote by mail system and other participation increasing policies. I very much expect that no matter who else gets in it, Oregon's two favorites will be Clinton and Sanders, just as last time it was Clinton and Obama. Just as in 08 I expect an increase in Democratic Party voter registrations.

Oh and it's Socialist, as in Social Security. I don't think it scares people in the way that older, white straight men in Red States think it does. Seriously. It's as much a selling point as anything. This is not 1957 and this is not the Republican Party.

[Agschmid]

19. .

Policies

Please add to the following list via response.

FOREIGN POLICY
Opposed the war in Iraq and warned against the United States getting bogged down in Afghanistan, calling it a costly quagmire like Vietnam.

He says the fight against the Islamic State should be undertaken by countries like Saudi Arabia, which borders Iraq and, he argues, has the financial and military resources to fight the extremist group.

ENVIRONMENT
Has warned about what he calls the severe impact of human-caused climate change. He supports stringent measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, including tough standards for new vehicles, as well as some more politically unorthodox ideas, like providing money to study carbon sequestration, or storing carbon dioxide, to delay global warming.

SAME-SEX MARRIAGE
Strongly supports same-sex marriage. “It’s time for the Supreme Court to catch up to the American people and legalize gay marriage,” he said recently.

IMMIGRATION
Supported Mr. Obama’s 2014 executive action shielding millions of undocumented immigrants from deportation.

But he has also called for reining in the guest-worker program that provides many businesses with low-wage immigrant labor, saying it fuels youth unemployment.

ECONOMY
Supports increased government spending to generate jobs and rebuild the nation’s infrastructure.
Would raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour from $7.25, although in early April he called a $15 minimum wage “reasonable.”

Has proposed breaking up the nation’s largest banks, saying the six biggest ones wield too much control over the economy.

Proposed barring banks’ chief executives from serving on the Federal Reserve’s 12 regional boards of directors, saying their membership on those boards poses a conflict of interest and undermines regulation of the financial services industry.

Vehemently opposes the Trans-Pacific Partnership with Asian nations, a trade deal Mr. Obama has championed. “Are you on the side of working people who would suffer as a result of this disastrous trade agreement, and seeing their jobs go to China or Mexico?” Mr. Sanders said recently. “Or are you on the side of corporate America and pharmaceuticals?”

HEALTH CARE
Supports a Medicare-for-all single-payer health care system.



Source (edited for brevity):
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/us/politics/bernie-sanders-on-the-issues.html?rref=us&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&pgtype=article&_r=0

[peacebird]

27. Nice summary!

[Agschmid]

31. Check out the Bernie Sanders Bulletin Board for more!

Thanks to Rhett for posting!

[stage left]

91. women's issues

Sanders doesn't want to go back to the coat hanger in back alley days. Supports equal pay for equal work.

[Major Hogwash]

117. These positions are too radical for most Americans to handle.

They'd have to go out and buy a bong and pack the bowl with Maui Waui just to cope with the implications of living in such a country.

[LWolf]

21. Do you think

that the race will be close enough that our primary votes actually matter when our primary rolls around? It sure didn't work like that in '08.

[Dragonfli]

46. I am worried about the same thing, I live in NYS, the only real vote to cast is primary but

we are so late on the list it is all over by the time I get to vote in the primary (for the most part). This sucks as my vote in the general is never very important because the state is so blue, but the primary is where the party is shaped - I just wish I had a voice in that decision like the few lucky states do.

I heard somewhere NYS may be moved up earlier this cycle, I hope it is, I have already convinced a half dozen people to register as Democrats to vote for Sanders, these are people that don't like either party much because they feel they only work for rich people, they seldom even vote save for mayor and councilmen that they actually get to meet and they vote Democrat locally usually (if they do as they tell me) but largely because there are clearer differences in the local races and some of the local pols actually give a shit about people that make less than 100 k a year unlike nationally where anyone below that is pretty much invisible (National politicians seem to think that only the wealthy suburban people are middle class and they are mostly only willing to talk about "middle class", the rest of us can go pound sand I guess)

Sanders is different and it is easy to convince working people that he will fight for them, if the primary counts here I could easily deliver my neighborhood to Sanders.

[LWolf]

47. In '08,

my primary was in late May. There were only 2 people left running, and I didn't want to nominate either. Obama had already locked up my state, but I don't think he really needed it.

I was irrelevant.

[BrotherIvan]

23. Totally agree

Oh and it's Socialist, as in Social Security. I don't think it scares people in the way that older, white straight men in Red States think it does. Seriously. It's as much a selling point as anything. This is not 1957 and this is not the Republican Party.

Already seeing it. People are saying, "I don't know what socialist means, but I like what this guy's saying." If someone could follow it up with your line, "Socialist, as in Social Security." That would seal the deal.

[struggle4progress]

24. After our 2010 state legislature loss here, due to low turnout, gerrymandering handed our state over

to flat-tax, anti-Medicare, anti-education extremists: before then, we used to have approximate R/D splits in the legislature and Congressional delegation

I'd be delighted if more of the US were like Oregon, but I've lived much of my life in the South, and I suspect calling oneself a "socialist" is still a deal-killer here, though I'd be pleased to learn otherwise. It's probably not a deal-killer in my town, one of the bluest in the state: even twenty years ago, a local progressive candidate destroyed his political career by sending out a letter accusing an opponent of being a "communist" -- which resulted in her election, since nobody here was going to support red-baiting

But I think that's unusual for the state

The center here is a bit antsy-dancey: I got doors slammed in my face in 2010 with comments like "We voted Dem in 2008 but we sure aren't voting Dem this year." Knocking doors in 2012, I'd hear at one house "We aren't voting for Obama because he's pro-gay-marriage" and then a few doors down "We aren't voting for Obama because he's anti-gay-marriage." It's just weird sometimes. If I have to knock doors for Sanders a year from now, I may need some good responses to "Hey! Isn't he the socialist?"

[Major Hogwash]

120. Welcome to my world.

The same thing happened here back in 1990.
Before then we had a legislature that was almost evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats, with both parties having one extremist who was from the end of the political spectrum working with them, while being ignored by most of them most of the time.

But, after 1990, faggetaboutit, we became the most radically right state in the nation.
Republican Congressmen started playing the cakewalk game, switching seats from the U.S. House to take seats in the U.S. Senate.
Larry Craig was 10 times more ineffective as a U.S. Senator than he had been as a Congressman in the U.S. House.

Which also resulted in that douchebag Helen Chenoweth being elected to the U.S. House of Representatives.
Crapo went from the U.S. House to the U.S. Senate in 1998.
Risch went from Lieutenant Governor to temp Governor, then back to Lieutenant Governor, to U.S. Senator during the last decade.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. I don't accept advice from Teabaggers or others significantly to my right.

Your words are of no value.

[struggle4progress]

29. I suspect internet chatter is no substitute for dialing phones and jingling doorbells:

it's good practice to actually speak with people so you can actually hear their tone of voice and assess their body language, rather than trying to gauge them anonymously typing

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. Thank you for yet more advice that I won't need from you.

It's not bad advice, it's just coming from you, and I've seen what you think of Bernie Sanders. We aren't on the same side.

[struggle4progress]

33. Have a lovely day!

[Cha]

50. that right there is what gives the Sanders campaign a bad name.. some of his supporters on DU who

are so gawd damn ignorantly rude. all they have is their self inflated egos to fuel them.

Who really gives a shite if they don't want advice from an seasoned Dem GOTVer in North Carolina.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

60. Hey there, big brave keyboard warrior.

If you have something to say about me, why don't you just screw up the courage to do so? I'm used to Freepers and other useless, lying Republican pieces of sniveling human garbage sniping from safe and anonymous places. But I know you're a good person and not at all like those misbegotten fuckstains. So please be forthright next time around so as to avoid any confusion. And in the meantime, if you have questions for me or further statements about my character, bring them. To me.

[Cha]

63. Oh no.. you're the "big brave keyboard warrior" always dropping mean spirted crap and not expecting

any push back.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

96. It's hard to receive pushback when you misdirect it to someone else.

I have nothing but contempt for people so timid they have to result to passive-aggressive behaviors. Say what you mean, and say who you mean to say it to.

[libdem4life]

35. Here's my answer...SS is Socialism, free Education is Socialism, free Fire and Police are Socialism,

Free Libraries are Socialism. FEMA is socialism. Garbage collection is socialism. The list goes on. The definition that I use is that anytime there is an even distribution of a service that is paid into with many level of tax base, it is Socialism. All that is left is to determine which of the above we'd give up? Then we can go from there and decide the value of what is being offered.

[brooklynite]

37. Try that argument on some relatives/friends who aren't as liberal as you...

...and report back on how well it plays.

[libdem4life]

38. Oh, I have. They get glassy-eyed, but I always win. You can't deny it. Do you pay when the fire

engine comes up and puts out your house fire? Taxes, to be sure. Does it matter the newness of size of your home? Is it OK that poor folks homes get the same service?

Police...same story...(with some caveats here) but will, no one gets a bill, regardless of what has been paid in.

Library...mostly used by non-taxpaying kids/student. That OK?

FEMA...your house gets in the way of a tornado and is rebuilt...how about a trailer...both get the same service...certain states rarely use it, but if your relative is affected, is it OK? How about their next door neighbor poorer person? Yep. That's socialism by area/region of the country...Earthquates, tornadoes, floods all frequent different states...Why should, say California pay for the floods in New Orleans, the tornadoes in Oklahoma...or reverse it for the earthquake in California.

It's just common sense...'splained.

[brooklynite]

40. But I would contend they don't see that as "socialism"...and honestly, neither do I

It may be "social democracy", but "socialism" has a specific political definition, and your trying to explain that it means something else is either going to be an exercise in futility, or a huge drain on time you could spend promoting other aspect's of Bernie's campaign.

[libdem4life]

44. Clearly, you don't me or my family. This has been going on for 45 years. Has nothing to do with

Bernie. That post took me 5 minutes. Your judgments and suggestions are duly noted.

PS...All that group needs to hear is "socialist". They don't hear democrat because they have no clue how to reconcile the two ...seemslike a oxymoron to them. Even the word Democrat (as in the party) makes some of them pee their pants.

Just like Bill O...you just saw it in action. I mean, why the pushback?

[freshwest]

109. Actually, the term social democratic is easier to understand until they are OTT. My sister, a bagger

recently got enlightened by the help she got from Obamacare, her hopes for women and gay rights from Hillary, getting on Social Security and Medicare.

It was warming her up. Want to know about this family member, take a look. I don't know that it will take 5 minutes, so perhaps you are having some eye or computer problems, as the post you said took you 5 minutes took me more life a half a dozen minutes, but then I understood the concept he's arging already.

So I may be wasting my time, and you may not want to read this tale of a big turnaround:

Called teabag relation yesterday although I didn't expect to do much good in Glennbeckistan.
Sounded the most rational I'd heard in years after the absolute hysteria I'd endured just before the election. It had been building up since 2008 and got worse from 2010 on. This is the post of what happened in November:

** Am copying what the link says for you below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021449535#post15

So now I call her, not expecting much at all. Her mood was completely changed, she was relaxed and happy talking about how they are going to go on Medicare and all of that.

I deliberately hadn't called her for over a month. She didn't feel any need to talk about Obama at all this time. What happened, I didn't dare ask.

**Glennbeckistan on me. I didn't know that this article is what spurred the insanity for yesterday!

She was ranting about 'Obama going to foreign countries' making deals on importing millions of Mexicans to win elections. Said how they were are all being given driver licenses, put on welfare, so of course they would all vote for Democrats!

To which I said, we don't do that up here (upper Left Coast blue state) and you should talk to your Governor Perry about it being done down there. I went into how we didn't have many illegals except in the red areas where they're used for cheap labor.

She wanted to know why, and I said we are not a Right-to-Work (for less) state, our legislature doesn't give welfare to illegals, nor licenses, nor do they vote. She was mildly comforted at that idea, wasn't sure if Texas was doing it, but didn't bring up California at all. I doubt she knew.

I tried to shift the conversation over to a friend who'd just paid off her home and retired, put on solat panels, etc. That we were also making use of wind power and hydroelectric, etc. and our light company is non-profit. She said it'll never work in Texas, and I pointed out the large amount of wind turbines in the west part of the state I'd seen and even talked to those putting them up.

She said that had not worked out, but I said it had for those I knew who built them for their farms and used them to get off the grid. I suggested that with all that sunshine in Texas, it could lead the way with solar power. She said the weather was too bad. I remarked since we have 310+ million people and are predicted to have many more people by the turn of the century, we'll have to try harder.

That led her back to blaming that increase on illegal Mexicans having millions of babies on welfare so the Democrats would win elections. So she finally began to froth at the mouth, talking about how 'this isn't the country I grew up in!' and 'this is a Christian Nation, and 'if they don't like it they can go back to where they came from!'

I started to say that most Mexicans are Christians, but she was on a roll. Warmed up, she yelled, 'We can't take four more years of Obama turning us into Communism!' Grammatically incorrect, but what do you expect?

Mind you, her hubby, the sane one of the pair, is on Social Security and VA disability. She's been excited about going on Social Security herself, and their medical care is government supported and very good.

When she got louder about Obama, she yelled at me saying, wasn't I was scared about him getting re-elected? To which I said, 'No, I'm not worried about it at all. No one up here is.' That's when the frothing began, how could I not be concerned about how he will end this nation and she pulled out her final verbal weapon...

How Obama is bringing in Sharia Law!!!. Finally rounded up with 'If I have to, I'll take up arms, although I've never fired a gun, and I'll kill anyone who tries to do it.'

At that point I had to bite my tongue and not say if she'd just stay home, no one would notice her and no one was coming to get her to convert. Actually I think she'd look cuter in a burka than that sofa throw cover she walks around in.

Somewhere in the middle of the diatribe, she also went into how she's met people in the Tea Party, that the media is lying about them, they are really nice and never rude or violent like the Occupy people. Who she said are running loose raping people, defecating everywhere, drunk and scumbags, etc. (Shades of Breitbart.)

I thought she was coming back to Sanity a while back after the 47% uproar, but hate radio and FOX has pulled her right back into her alternative reality, and it's really scary. What a weird way to end the evening. Fortunately, her husband got her off the phone...

Sigh. And this story was a trigger for her.

So....

She recently even asked me about socialism. Mind you this woman could not tell the difference between a C. And S. and a D.S. And his has been going on with her for over a dozen years!

I explained the difference between D.S. and S., and I did ot by explaining it as a sort of way of treating everyone equally. That it's more about We're All In This Together than Everyman For Himself.

That it has worked well in Scandinavia and the Anglosphere. She saw that as a positive. Now she's going to vote for HRC, but might even with time vote for BS. She is retired and FNN just lost another sucker.

So unless your family is extremely difficult, explaing what Bernie is about in New Deal terms or democratic socialism works very well. AFAIK>

[Adrahil]

111. Of course. But you assume the general electorate actually listens to rational argument.

A huge swath of them do not.

[libdem4life]

112. I don't consider it an argument. I just present it as fact...ends the discussion.

Like it or not, they were just educated. Not a word they can find to counter it.

[brooklynite]

36. Here's a clue...neither candidate will run a 50 State Strategy...

...that's useful for House, Senate and State House races, but no Democratic Presidential candidate will be campaigning seriously in Idaho, Mississippi or North Dakota. There are only so many hours in the day and dollars in the bank, and it's irresponsible to spend resources in a State you have absolutely no ability to contest.

[struggle4progress]

42. I suspect you're right but it breaks my heart

[99Forever]

49. Advice from you?

No thanks, I watched how well the "serious people" did last time around.

I want Senator Sanders to win.

[Phlem]

54. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

True dat!

[L0oniX]

73. ^^^THIS^^^

[Rex]

82. And OP doesn't know the difference between DINOs and yellowdogs...but IS a DEM...

Agree 100% and glad they slipped up for all of DU to see.

[Marr]

84. When I first read this post, he described himself as a blue dog.

I see he edited it. So this is someone who confuses yellow dogs and blue dogs, and has lots of 'advice'.

lol.

[Rex]

85. I just wish blue dogs had the guts to admit to it here and stop pretending to be liberals. nt

nt

[struggle4progress]

97. Yeah: that was sloppy of me

[Cha]

53. Excellent advice from someone who's had so much experience on the ground. LOL @ these Bernie

Last edited Sat May 2, 2015, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

supporters who are too full of themselves to be anything but boorish.

And, none of the candidates are going to win without the President campaigning for them and with them.. that will really piss them off.

[Phlem]

55. !

Whatever.

[Katashi_itto]

58. Project much?

[Cha]

62. You know it's true.. and that's all you have. Figures.

[Katashi_itto]

64. Lol...again project much?

[Cha]

65. Parrot much.

[Katashi_itto]

66. Only if its true. See #58

[Major Hogwash]

68. And we've still got a long way to go!

The DU members who bashed Kerry in 2004 didn't apologize or stop whining after he was defeated.
And the ones who stayed to bash Obama in 2008 haven't stopped whining after he was re-elected.
It is no wonder then that members like grantcart no longer post here.
Maybe something came up in his real life that prevented him from spending any more time posting here, I don't know.

Now that DU is once again devolving in to a morass of outright namecalling, it makes me wonder just how many of these people even care enough to vote, let alone go out and try to get others to vote.

If Bernie was smart, he would mention this forum and then people could come here and read what he stands for.
But, DU will never evolve to become something like that.
Facebook is probably a better avenue for that sort of thing.

[Cha]

71. I don't think Bernie would be proud of some of the bully supporters around here

who have nothing but mean spirited crap to drop on anyone who doesn't think like they do.

The OP is talking about Bernie supporters helping Bernie on the ground where he's had a lot of experience in North Carolina.. and some of them get on their high horse and start dropping insults on him. But, so typical.. we've seen the same thing regarding Pres Obama for 7 years. That's just who they are.

And, of course, they deny it.. "What who me? " Yeah, that always works.

[Major Hogwash]

72. Oh, I agree totally.

But, if Bernie did use DU to garner support, he could have those bullies banned, then this forum wouldn't stink so much.

<--- Me, for even thinking that DU could make a difference!

[sheshe2]

107. Hey Cha

One called Number23 uppity in an alert I was on jury. A black member called uppity. It was ugly 0/7 leave.

[freshwest]

115. I was on that Jury, too. You should have been asleep there, Bah-stun!

[sheshe2]

116. Lol~

Yes, I should have been, fresh. At least I was able to sleep in this morning.

[Aerows]

70. Advice for Clinton supporters

the primary has not been decided, and we do not have a nominee, yet.

It is the choice of every Democratic voter to vote for whatever Democrat they wish to see in the general.

Nobody has been anointed, nobody has been deemed the general election candidate. Until that happens, the gloves are off - we can choose whatever Democrat we want to choose, and scare tactics only make the opposition stronger.

Hillary Clinton is going to face opposition, and frankly, she should if she is indeed worthy to lead our party to the Presidency. She is just like everybody else and has to prove herself to voters.

[Number23]

76. The panicked, almost hysterical SUPPORT from this man's supporters here is bizarre and unsettling

It's like they think that if they can blanket DU with thread after thread about Bernie Sanders, that will somehow make the massive gap between his level of support and Hillary's become nil.

I've said plenty of times that I'm not thrilled with Clinton's candidacy. And I've also said that Sanders says a lot of things that I agree with wholeheartedly. But anyone trying to pretend that Clinton supporters are "afraid" of Bernie is not being honest, with themselves or others. Hillary's level of Democratic support right now is massive, as is her triumph in every single Republican mash up right now. Bernie doesn't have either right now.

Sanders might be able to chip some of that support away and if he does, no biggie. Good for him. This whole thing will be measured in votes and $$$, as usual and Bernie is just getting started. Some of the panting fanaticism here around his candidacy seems eerily familiar to DU's disastrously doomed love affair with Dennis Kucinich who was also deemed the great liberal savior until he got scraped off the road of political obscurity to work for Fox News a few years later.

[99Forever]

77. Watch and learn. n/t

[Number23]

78. Yeah, I'm "watching" this place go off the deep end. Again.

[99Forever]

87. Oh I know...

...getting all uppity and showing strong support for a real Democratic leader that isn't approved by the Corporate Overseers.


The fucking nerve of 'em.

[Number23]

100. See what I mean about hysterical, "panicked" support? Thanks for proving my point.

[99Forever]

110. Of course I did...

Last edited Mon May 4, 2015, 07:48 AM - Edit history (1)

... don't be ridiculous.




Project much?

[Number23]

113. This post doesn't make a bit of sense. It's obvious you want to refute something I've said

but can't or just want to argue for the hell of it. Why? Only you know.

[99Forever]

118. Simply put:

Condescending claptrap is condescending. And quite insulting. But carry on, it's sure to attract lots of people to your way of thinking.

[Number23]

119. There was nothing condescending and sure as hell nothing untrue in my post

The fact that something so plainly stated and true has riled you up so thoroughly is your problem and yours alone as well as rather entertaining.

[Rex]

121. Sad truth, I think they are like that in RL and have no idea. nt.

nt.

[99Forever]

122. Ain't that the truth. n/t

[Number23]

123. Like what, Rex? Like "what" in real life?

Are you in real life as you appear here? A person who always throws insults from the sidelines, always agreeing with whatever everybody else in the thread is saying as long as they're in the Cool Crew you fancy yourself being a member of, chases after posters here (steveleser, me and a slew of others) but always "in response" to other posters (as you've done in this thread) while never having the courage to actually engage with any of us (and for that I am IMMENSELY thankful, you better believe it!) as if your tired little opinion or insults means anything?

You:

Me:

Go ahead with smiley which you use as frequently as you toss insults here. We all know how close you both are.

[Bonobo]

92. "hysterical"? How sexist! nt

[Cha]

94. The hysteria comes especially when they're using rw sites to try and make their rw talking points..

pathetic.. it's been a trend and they haven't learned yet that it only makes look them foolish.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6614969

I like Bernie too.. and, I can separate him from his rude obnoxious fans on the internet.

Really glad he's in the race.

Aloha there, 23~

[JonLP24]

98. Interesting that a Republican polling firm polled her unfavorability rating lower than national ones

Its no secret she has an already high un-favorability rating roughly at 46%, a few weeks ago she was over 50% favorability which puts her within range of the most popular politicians but what is interesting is her already high unfavorability ratings. I didn't click further than your link to the OP but without knowing a clue which way the undecideds would fall she does have firm supporters & firm opponents she is very polarizing -- similar points the Obama campaign was making in 2008 due to Hillary Clinton campaigning on her electability.

Right now are her national averages
Unfavorable 47.3%
Favorable 46.8%
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating

I have sometimes felt more dislike at some of Obama's cheerleaders (NJMaverick is the biggest name I'm thinking of) than Obama himself but remind myself Obama has power & is set while depending on some of the cheerleaders background they may be as hard luck as I am but personality cults either way I could do without. I gave up fan clubs in politics a long time ago.

[JonLP24]

95. I really must not pay attention at all to Fox News

because I had no idea they hired him after his Cleveland stronghold was gerrymandered into Marcy Kaptur's district. I always liked the man. Howard Dean caught my attention at the very first 9 candidates thing on CSPAN January 2003. As far as the debates I honestly believe Al Sharpton & Dennis Kucinich won all of the time. Dean appeared especially stiff the first couple but heard so much that he was a fringe candidate then by the summer he led in the money & the endorsements with the big one at-the-time from Al Gore.

I was in the military from '05-'08 and didn't have TV to keep track of who was in the running with the exception of a couple guys mention they like McCain (during the Spring) and I know McCain, argued strongly -- during this same conversation one of the 2 was actually claiming that we did find WMD in response to me mentioning the lies to justify the war where he said we did find WMD it just didn't capture any attention knowing he got some incorrect info or was telling partisan lies.

I probably would have supported Obama as I liked mostly everything I heard but I bought into the whole Change thing as something more than just marketing or as something more than just a change from Bush. Kucinich though always remained with his convictions continuing to oppose the Patriot Act & I think he won the debate on the question asked here

This is a pocket copy of the Constitution which I carry with me, because I took an oath to defend the Constitution. We've spent a lot of time talking about Iraq here tonight and America's role in the world. This country was taken into war based on lies. This country was taken into war based on lies about weapons of mass destruction and Al Qaeda's role with respect to Iraq, which there wasn't one at the time we went in. I want to state that Mr. Cheney must be held accountable. He is already ginning up a cause for war against Iran. Now, we have to stand for this Constitution, we have to protect and defend this Constitution. And this vice president has violated this Constitution. So I think that while my friends on the stage may not be ready to take this stand, the American people should know that there's at least one person running for president who wants to reconnect America with its goodness, with its greatness, with its highest principles, which currently are not being reflected by those who are in the White House.
—Dennis Kucinich, New York Times, April 27, 2007[115]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich#Impeachment_proceedings_against_Dick_Cheney

Right now Clinton & Biden lead the polls because they have name recognition most people know who they are, most people say they don't know or don't know enough on the question of Bernie Sanders yes or no. Of those committed yes Bernie Sanders is sitting solidly at third place based on CNN polls the past 3-4 months. Of all candidates or potential names that can be thrown out there I back him over anyone including Elizabeth Warren & so I can only speak for myself, Hillary Clinton has the best odds but the whole party including her strategists are well aware of these "Warren supporters" which are mostly populists who could go for either or someone besides Hillary Clinton. Which is why she is so obvious "taking on big business & banks" during her book/campaign rally tour & recently calling for "toppling the 1%" a year after "foolish anti-wall street rhetoric". It is why O'Malley is so obvious trying to out-liberal here to capture these "Warren supporters" which overlaps with the Sanders supporters pretty much. I think he has to get his name out there & given a chance to speak which is why those numbers could change.

I wasn't around DU during all-this (I joined July 2008) so not sure if this was the same thing here. In 2004, most of the candidates backed the Iraq war except for Howard Dean & Kucinich as best as I can remember right now. What really seemed far out there was the push & backing for Wesley Clark from the likes of Michael Moore who saw him as the electable anti-war with his General rank to protect him against Bush calling him a coward during debates -- a guy who also didn't have a meaningful platform like who the hell knows what this guy supports. Looking back, if anything I wish I paid more attention to what Bob Graham was saying. In '08, Obama was strongly anti Iraq war with an early record to go on. John Edwards went from a guy that basically nobody supporting to being a hero. Honestly thought Hillary Clinton being the nominee in '08 in '04 was a foregone conclusion, Hell I wondered why she didn't run in '04 & lock up the nomination.

If anything Hillary Clinton does need to be afraid of it is her own rhetoric, she has tendency to put her foot in her mouth -- gaffe -- where she has corrected herself time and time again, she certainly is brilliant on the issues she knows but when she takes positions on issues, pandering, or using something to her advantage such as her often "you can't choose your family but you can't choose your pastor". Or Bill Ayers & Rezko, whatever can be used. Bernie Sanders takes clear stances on issues for clear reasons & is a very unique case of someone who doesn't so obviously run an anti-whoever campaign brings focus to issues rather than personalities. Another thing I think helps is there are really no strong alternative candidates to Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders is polling higher than O'Malley whose an obvious phony himself and I think Biden has 2nd place only because most voters know who he is. Plus Hillary Clinton's polls are dropping & I remember at-one-point any viable Democrat was polling higher than Bush (before the primaries)`

[Number23]

101. I liked Dean too. I learned alot about Kucinich's time in Ohio from DUers here. It wasn't pretty

Especially race wise.

Why do you think O'Malley is a phony?

[JonLP24]

102. He seems to be saying the things to appeal to those "Warren supporters"

who are really Hillary Clinton's only threat from walking away with the party nomination so its the only hope he has but I don't know where he stands on everything, just the timing of what he's saying such as the people need a President "they can trust" but the only one he seems to be recommending is himself. Same interview as when he said the Presidency shouldn't be a crown that is passed around between two families.

He had an ally on city council & when he announced his run O'Malley backed him initially until he decided to run for mayor, it could be incidental but he went from a long shot & I don't know the behind the scenes of that move but with the city council ally running against the incumbent helped him because they "split the black vote" (not my words & don't know if that was why O'Malley ran though it is odd he backed him, I hope he didn't encourage him.

Aside from that he pushed zero tolerance policing & accelerated it during his Governor campaign locking up 100,000 in a year of a city the size of 600,000.

From David Simon he is very experienced reporter on the Baltimore Police Department

To quote him: "In my city, Baltimore, we had a mayor, Martin O'Malley, who decided he was going to escalate the drug war. Zero tolerance was his mantra, and he put it out there: "Get everybody off the corners. Clear the corners." He was running for governor, so, for political reasons, he was basically trying to clear the street a year in advance of the election. We were filming The Wire in Baltimore at the time. And it got to the point that my African-American crew members and actors couldn't get back to their hotel without getting locked up, because they were driving while black. It was just presumed they were out there to cop drugs. So every now and then I'd have to go down and bail out my assistant director or one of my actors. Now, that was what was happening to people who were somewhat notable and had something to say to the cop. Can you imagine how many regular Baltimoreans went down to the city jail charged with nothing?" http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/30/david-simon-americas-war-on-drugs

BALTIMORE —Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake said Wednesday she will not combat crime by returning to the days of so-called mass arrests of minor offenses.

In an opinion-editorial piece published Wednesday in The Baltimore Sun, Gov. Martin O'Malley stepped up his campaign to get the city to go back to what he did when he was mayor: have a policing policy that led to more than 100,000 arrests per year -- many for minor offenses.

The mayor and governor are widely seen as friends, but they are not on the same page on this issue and the continuing debate, the mayor said, is causing many communities to worry.

"Homicides are going up for the second year in a row, and shootings are up year to date. Why? I believe it has to do with the fact that enforcement levels have fallen to a 13-year low," the governor wrote.

O'Malley called critics of his policy "ideologues on the left." . . .

"Honest minds can differ, but this honest mind is also fact-dependent, and the data show that more arrests didn't lead to a safer city," Rawlings-Blake countered Wednesday.

The mayor's office produced a chart showing a steady decline in violent crime since 2006 -- the year O'Malley left City Hall -- and arrests reached their peak. It was to counter a chart produced by the governor to argue otherwise.

More: http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/mayor-vows-not-to-return-to-days-of-mass-arrests-in-baltimore/22118078

He wants to appear as if he is tough on crime just for appearances sake but in any case the ACLU filed suit & the courts ruled the policy violated civil liberties


Last year, The Baltimore Sun reported that taxpayers had paid $5.7 million since 2011 in judgments or settlements in 102 lawsuits alleging police misconduct. A. Dwight Pettit, a lawyer who specializes in police misconduct and represents Tyrone West’s family in a wrongful-death suit against the city, said he had “20 open cases right now,” and was flooded with requests for representation.

Mr. Gray was not the first black man in Baltimore to emerge from a police van with a spinal cord injury. Jeffrey Alston, who became paralyzed from the neck down after a van ride, settled for $6 million in 2004. The following year, Dondi Johnson, also paralyzed after a van ride, won a jury award of $7.4 million, though it was reduced on appeal.

Kerry D. Staton, the lawyer who handled both cases, said Mr. Johnson, like Mr. Gray, had not been belted in. Mr. Staton said officers had intentionally given Mr. Johnson what is known as a “rough ride, where he was thrown across the vehicle into the opposite wall and broke his neck.”

Civil rights advocates and some elected officials here trace the tensions to “zero-tolerance policing,” a crime-fighting strategy championed by Martin O’Malley, the former governor and a potential Democratic candidate for president, when he was the mayor of Baltimore from 1999 to 2007. Aides of Mr. O’Malley note that on his watch, the number of annual homicides dropped below 300 per year for the first time in more than a decade, and that violent crime in Baltimore dropped by 41 percent. Steve Kearney, a top aide to Mr. O’Malley when he was the mayor, described the policies as “appropriate for the time.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/25/us/baltimores-broken-relationship-with-police.html?_r=0

I haven't heard a whole lot about Kucinich background wise, I heard West Cleveland votes him in large numbers. Made an unpopular move when it came to Muni Light, stood up to the mob had a contract out on him but I think it cost him his re-election in the 70s but the move ended up saving the city a fortune when it comes locally. I don't know why he would go to Fox, it was the Republicans that screwed him by drawing him into Marcy Kaptur's district.

[chknltl]

103. Re: "....they can blanket DU with thread after thread...."

It surely seems to me that the majority of posters on any forum who have something in common they wish to chat about should be allowed to do just that. For example thread after thread about guns in the gungeon are discussed primarily by gun owners and the few detractors brave enough to go there. Sanders supporters massively outnumber Clinton supporters here in the DU so until that changes expect to see a lot of threads about Senator Sanders. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6592890

[sheshe2]

104. Here

The panicked, almost hysterical SUPPORT from this man's supporters here is bizarre and unsettling
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6615175

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Over the top insulting DUers, "panting fanaticism," "bizarre and unsettling" etc

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 4, 2015, 03:49 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Let it stand. This is the part where Bernie supporters are laughed at after having been ignored. Next: Bernie wins!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No. Sadly Bernie supporters are the ones over the top insulting DUers. 99Forever called a black member of DU Uppity. Number23 is uppity. Sorry Number23. All the Bernie threads seem to trash people, Hillary and Obama and apparently black people. Wow, I bet Bernie is so very proud of you....not!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I will fight tooth n nail against this viewpoint but I will fight even harder for a fellow DUer's right to post this or any such observation they wish as long as they follow the rules. I see no rules being broke here, Leave This Post Alone.


Me #5

[freshwest]

105. Yes, that garnered a 7-0 for Leave It Alone. Will not be alerting for a day, I guess. n/t

[sheshe2]

106. Stupid Fucking Alert!

And the poster that called 23 uppity. They showed their true colors.

[Number23]

114. Thanks fresh and sheshe!

Though in all honesty, it seems to me that the person is trying to imply that I called Bernie Sanders supporters "uppity" because of their "strong" and "principled" "support" for the man. And then he has the nerve to accuse me of projection.

[fadedrose]

86. Socialism modeled after Canada & Europe

is what we should say. Those countries enjoy health care, vacations, childcare, pensions - and EVERYBODY CAN OWN PROPERTY, STOCKS IN COMPANIES, HOMES, LOTS, BASEBALL TEAMS, etc., there is no problem to ownership except for a few important things, maybe like water, utilities, etc....not sure.


Somebody should look all that stuff up and tell us...

[AgingAmerican]

88. Sanders already knows what he believes

He doesn't have to throw turds against the wall to see what sticks. He is guided by principle, not by 'what sells'.

People are sick of 'what sells' because invariably that nonsense keeps driving everything rightward.

All we have to tell people is the truth.

[JonLP24]

89. I've seen philosphical articles from the RW

or at-least one right winger who took the positions of Obama (early into his first Presidency) & compare them to positions on policies to a politicians or the party line of the Democratic Socialists in Europe -- writing a long winded version of a way to call the President a socialist.

Certainly those that link Socialism to the USSR but a lot of people don't seem to worry about that kind of thing, especially of Democratic Socialism. Young people & the poor view socialism favorably, Martin Luther King urged Americans to move "toward a Democratic Socialism" you could use that in an ad -- conservatives have used him in an ad against anti-immigration, I shit you not.

[mmonk]

99. A question for everyone else. How will all the answers pan out to the issues

the Sanders campaign will produce? A substantive debate is at hand for the first time in a long time concerning subjects the American media abandoned long ago since probably the time ideology brought forth by Reagan began to shape this society. How will your "safe" candidates handle them? How will the media handle them when they can't change the subject?

[quaker bill]

108. The R's will call any D candidate a "socialist"

and most likely already are.