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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBaltimore riots: 'They even took the ATM' – Pakistani shop owner may have lost $100,000 to looters
"They even took the ATM," Faizan Shaheed declared as he and his sister, Kanwel, were helping to nail plywood sheets over the shattered windows of their aunts small Pakistani grocery on Charles Street in the downtown area of Baltimore, just one of so many properties ransacked by rioters, who went on the rampage following the funeral of a young black man who died in police custory.
The shop, Annapurna Grocery and Gifts, came under attack from a small mob in the middle of the afternoon. They smashed the windows and double doors before stripping nearly everything they could find. All that was left last night were lines of stripped shelves, some onions and a few empty sweet boxes.
===================================
"What is she going to do? This isnt her fault. Is the city going to help her? She doesnt even have insurance," said Kanwel, who said she left her children at home crying to come to help with the clean-up. "We wouldnt even think that something like this could happen in Baltimore." She speculated that the young men may have targeted the shop because they knew it was owned by Pakistanis.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baltimore-riots-they-even-took-the-atm--pakistani-shop-owner-may-have-lost-100000-to-looters-10208502.html
If they targeted this business because it was owned by Pakistanis they should be charged with hate crimes.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)As my Scottish grandfather, who lived in suburban Baltimore for many years, would say, "I hae me doots". It is far more likely that the Shaheeds were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, like many Korean merchants were in south-central L.A.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)but it was pretty widely known during the LA riots in 1992 that Korean businesses were targeted...it wasn't a case of wrong place, wrong time.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,347 posts)Texasgal
(17,048 posts)were also targeted.
I have a few friends who's family lost everything during the LA riots. They never recovered.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Korean-owned businesses burn = targeted
White-owned businesses burn = targeted
Jewish-owned businesses burn = targeted
Vietnamese-owned businesses burn = targeted
Black-owned businesses burn = CRICKETS
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Hardly.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Black business burned = Not targeted, but burned anyway? ... Targeted, too?
Either way, it kind of weakens the racial argument, no?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Targeting a business to burn down based on the race or ethnicity of the owner/operator is even worse, because it's based on bigotry.
I have no idea whether such targeting occurred in Baltimore - I haven't heard that it did. But it certainly happened during the LA riots in 1992, and yes, it was widely known at the time.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"It happened because 'it was widely known'" thing?
Okay.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)If you don't believe it happened, and can't take the time to learn about it for yourself, that's your problem, not mine.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but for the record, citing to "widely know" is pretty much the opposite of "educating."
Desert805
(392 posts)I was living just a few miles west. the Koreans that came in to the neighborhoods and opened up liquor stores were frowned upon. There's references to such in hip hop as well.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)A sentiment expressed in a 1991 Ice Cube song:
So pay respect to the black fist
Or we'll burn your store, right down to a crisp
And then we'll see ya
'Cause you can't turn the ghetto, into Black Korea
Ice Cube is from Los Angeles, by the way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)whose words are typically ignored, says it ... it happened?
Okay.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)In the South-Central area, where Korean shops have become the object of resentment even as they provide what is often the only retail service to residents, some shopkeepers climbed ladders to remove the Korean lettering from their signboards. At the Korean consulate, where National Guardsmen stood watch, an identifying plaque had been covered up by tape.
Yumi Park, the former director of the Korean American Grocers Association, said about 600 Korean-owned retail outlets had been damaged in the South-Central area and about 200 in Koreatown.
Lawrence Aubry, a member of the Los Angeles County Human Relations Commission, said Korean merchants had become a lightning rod for the discontent of some black residents. Many blacks in Los Angeles have remained poor as, one after another, immigrant groups have arrived and climbed past them to prosperity.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/03/us/riot-los-angles-pocket-tension-target-rioters-koreatown-bitter-armed-determined.html
You seem to think people are making this up.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I think that if the shops were targeted, it was not because of the ethnicity of the shop owner; but, rather, how the shop owner treated members of the community.
But what would I know? I have only been Black and have lived (and been active) in Black neighborhoods the majority of my life.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Apparently everyone who gets their stuff looted or burned in a riot has it coming.
Stay classy.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in 1994, I bought a house in a really impoverished community ... my house was surrounded on 3 sides by public housing. The entire block had 6 habitable houses on it.
At the corner of the street was a "grocery store"/gas station, that sold very little gas (as they charged 40 cents a gallon more than most gas stations) and was stocked with over-priced goods, and just right priced cigarettes, wine and malt liquor.
Being a smoker, I would stop in there about 2 or 3 times a week. On one occasion, I happened into the store. I noticed there was young woman (probably 15 or 16 years old) holding some "Pampers". She was clearly upset.
I came to learn that she was less than a dollar short on the price of the over-priced diapers ... she had been pleading with the shop owner to give her credit for the difference, until that coming Friday ... when her mother got a check.
I came in just in time to hear the shop owner telling her that she could have the diapers for what she had, if she gave him a BJ.
Of course I was aghast ... I reached into my pocket and gave her the money for the diapers.
The shop owner got mad at me for giving her the money. He refused to accept the money from the young woman ... AND he refused to sell me the cigarettes; telling me that I should just mind my own business.
Tell me you would shed a tear for that shop keeper if his shop burned down.
One day, I
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I think you hit the post button before you finished your reply. Please finish what you were planning to say.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)my post preceded that.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I bet most people who run small stores in the ghetto are just like that. They should all have their stores burned down.
Or, you know, people could stop patronizing that business.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The lack of shopping choice, and the expense of transportation, makes not patronizing abusive store owners a non-option when you have an immediate need.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I vacillate on that ... On the one hand, the store does provide stuff the community needs and wants; but, at what cost?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)If someone burned it down, though, I would want the arsonist prosecuted.
Your story really has nothing to do with the family in the OP or the Korean families in L.A. The store owner that you described was a reprehensible cockroach, but it doesn't cast guilt on these victims.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)shop owners get targeted for burning ... and it has NOTHING to do with their ethnicity; but rather, everything to do with how they treat the community wherein they are located.
Do I know this particular shop owner mistreated the community? No. I don't. But I know that store owners that treat the community well, are not burned by members of the community.
But again ... what do I know? I've only lived it.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)You are using the example of one store owner in your past to justify the crime described in the OP.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that's why I said;
But if you think that is not the norm, you are woefully, ignorant/mis-informed.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Well, not unless there's a riot going on.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)still_one
(92,454 posts)Which is what happens when crowds becomes disorderly, and riot
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but some wish to make this about race. I wonder why? Maybe it's the "reverse discrimination" thing.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)that they told the crowd to go after non-black-owned businesses.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but more, the media sources reporting said self-serving "interviews"?
Okay.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Desert805
(392 posts)Maybe you should?
You could also accept the words of the Angelenos who lived it, and the rioters who perpetrated it, but whatever.
You've got an axe-- grind it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have not claimed authority status.
I could accept "the words of the Angelenos who lived it" ... but Los Angeles is a big place with some "experiencing" it and others "experiencing" it via the media. Right? But whatever.
Please tell me ... What ax do you think I have to grind?
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)and asking (quite reasonably, IMO), if there is any actual evidence that Asian-owned businesses were "targeted" or damaged at a greater rate than black-owned businesses. If anybody has any numbers that speak to that, it would be a good response to 1SBM's question.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I thought it would have been clear from this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6607332
My first post in this thread.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)There had been racial tensions between the African Americans and Korean American communities in that area long before the Rodney King incident. Area residents had complained for years about the Korean shopkeepers treating them all like criminals, and many were still furious about a Korean shopkeeper who had shot and killed a 15 year old African American girl she accused of shoplifting. Even though witnesses and video recordings clearly showed that there was no danger and that the shopkeeper had essentially executed her with a shot to the back of the head, and even though the police showed that she had the money to pay for the item IN HER HAND and was going to pay for it, the shopkeeper was still only given probation and a $500 fine. A $500 fine for cold-blooded murder.
That conviction came down only a few months before the Rodney King verdict. That anger, combined with years of (real or perceived) abuse at the hands of the Korean merchant community, led a lot of the rioters to target Koreatown.
Desert805
(392 posts)I remember all of that, living not too far away. It was insane.
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)Sure people back then were mad at the white cops but they took the opportunity to get even with Koreans who they viewed as just as racist towards blacks when they went into their stores and got profiled and followed around like they were going to steal something just because they were black. It's not right but it is understandable considering they knew they were in black neighborhoods but disliked black people. I'm not saying these Pakistanis did the same thing but if they did its understandable.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I don't see evidence the shop owners were targeted because they're Pakistani.
Was CVS targeted because most of the shareholders are white?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)The parallels to some of the stuff I have seen posted here lately are jawdropping.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Is it good?
ananda
(28,885 posts)Surprisingly good for American tv.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Felicity Huffman deserves an Emmy for portraying the hate that exists in this country by those who don't even realize they are racist.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)one_voice
(20,043 posts)CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)Jeb Bush Caremark and see what you find my friend!!!
While it is old news, it is NEWS nonetheless and makes any Democrat with a brain wish to BOYCOTT CVS Caremark if at all possible!!!
former9thward
(32,097 posts)That CVS was the only place they could get their prescriptions. The city had begged CVS to put a store in that neighborhood. I'm sure you will be right there to help...
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)And I doubt that CVS will be in any hurry to rebuild there.
CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)What makes you think I am "elderly"? I am far worse than being elderly believe me.
I am totally 100% disabled and forced to used this Nazi fascist pharmacy.
I hate the fuckers ok? They SUCK and they are ripping me off!!!!
former9thward
(32,097 posts)I said nothing about your age or condition. Maybe some rioters will come around and burn your CVS down. That way you will not be forced to use a "nazi fascist" pharmacy that "sucks" and is "ripping you off".
CountAllVotes
(20,878 posts)Last edited Sun May 3, 2015, 02:59 AM - Edit history (2)
and no, I am not the only one being ripped off by them and being told what I can and cannot have. I frankly hope I see the day when some rich person out there sues the hell out of them writing for telling a physician what drugs they can and cannot RX. FUCK THEM.
Since when has this fascist pharmacy gotten so damn powerful?
Answer: The day the BFFE became involved in their "business practices".
On edit: If you think the elderly have it bad, you should see what people in my boat go through. It is much worse as they discriminate and give the disabled the lowest level crud they can push off and the cheapest crummiest generic drugs that can be found from third world countries and no, I am not kidding about that! Shame on them!! They get away with it because ... they can.
They are like a cancer in this land, spreading out of control and acting as if they are GOD when in fact they are a disastrous company that deserves to go belly up ASAP! I cannot tell you how many mom and pop pharmacies have had to hang the out-of-business signs on their door thanks to the likes of CVS/Caremark! Bad for jobs and bad for business!! The last time I was in there they gave me the wrong RX and still attempted to collect money from me!
romanic
(2,841 posts)between Arab/Chaldean owned businesses located in mostly-black neighborhoods.
Maybe the owners weren't specifically targeted for being Pakistani; they could've been targeted for not being black in a black area.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Keep trying.
romanic
(2,841 posts)to look up Arab/Black economic relationships in black neighborhoods. Or maybe you did and it ruined your narrative so your pretending it doesn't matter. Whatever.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)Pakistanis are not "Arabs."
FFS.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and Muslim
Which is still racist.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)and I am SICK of them
but I better not EVER respond directly to any of them, i will be silenced if I do
this thread is sickening...disgusting
phil89
(1,043 posts)your understanding that people may care about the aging population? Or that people can thin critically about the effects of losing resources in a community?? Have fun wallowing in anger.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)who have to live with the consequences of what the criminals did.
Why don't you care about the 99.9% of people in that neighborhood who protested peacefully or who--gasp! horror!--had other things to do like work and take care of their families?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)to Chinese and Arab businesses.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The collective DU mindset appears to be "too bad, so sad" - these folks just don't realize they should be honored their business was destroyed to send a "message" to the world.
Thanks for posting though.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Sad. Disgusting.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)in the view of many DU members. I've learned that the hard way.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Beacool
(30,253 posts)The poor souls had no choice but to loot and burn. How dare Obama call them thugs. They are just misunderstood.
The only thing these people did was undermine those who were legitimately protesting against police abuse without resorting to violence.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)I was wondering if you were around to receive it!
Beacool
(30,253 posts)How do you manage to find so many new bankies???
I get tired of the constant fighting around here. I poke my head a little and when I get sick of getting smacked around, I go away for a while.
It's always nice to see you, my friend.
Hugs........
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Who are we, after all, to criticize how people express their rage against the societal machine? An ATM lifter, or someone who cleans out a liquor store, is just as outraged over Freddie Gray as the next person, and we have no right to point it out as the shameless crime and opportunism that it is.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)for telling the police to stand down and not do their job.
"Give the space to destroy".
Duppers
(28,127 posts)In the long run, these "kids" have hurt themselves. Merchants will be reluctant to come back into the neighborhood. I'm sympathetic to their plight but they shouldn't have done this. I don't have any good answers.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)So sad.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Empty storefronts and vacant lots will do wonders for the community. Lots of jobs I hear.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Yikes!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Im guessing as a small business in an impoverished neighborhood, they simply couldn't afford it.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That's probably more than the yearly profit of a lot of those businesses!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)some of the worst poverty stricken neighborhoods are simply uninsurable.
I will tell you now, that Baltimore neighborhood is now uninsurable. Anyone who opens up a shop there now will not have insurance. This has been repeated numerous times over the past few days but too many DUers have been glossing over the long term repercussions for this community.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and how so many of us "accidentally" end up dead...Keep your eye on the ball...
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)n/t
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The pain and horror of deaths like Freddie Grays, and the long term devastation to this community from the rioting aren't mutually exclusive.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'm saddened that you're so indifferent to treat them both equally...
But I don't blame you, since DU always seems to go through this song-and-dance when racial strife is on primetime news, and it's something you'll never fully understand if you're not one of us...
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I haven't prioritized the economic fall-out over the deaths of people in the AA community at the hands of the police. Please don't put words in my mouth.
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)A few months ago you and I engaged in an exchange where you point blank explained - you don't have the same experience of America because you don't appear as a bi racial woman - the way I do as a bi racial woman. It was the exchange where you seemed upset that I couldn't give weight in the modern era to the issues in Ireland of years past . . . Remember? I couldn't feel empathy because My Irish ancestry is solid Protestant - lace curtain variety.
How we experience things, the influence of our elders will make us lean in different directions.
You may not feel as connected to the black American experience as others do. My father was an expat from Alabama ((I grew up in Western NY )For me - this brutality is nothing new. This has been going on for 150 years - but now we have citizen surveillance on our side. I had his real time experience to look to, my own in a majority white community in the 70's and 80's, the warmth of being able to retreat into my friends whose mom's were also involved in Jack and Jill, etc etc that alone provided a shared empathy and experience in America.
Now we can document these things real time - The cell phone is mightier than the gun. Who knew? And what the cell phone showed was so horrific - that charges and arrests have been made.
If these were hate crimes - then that too shall be revealed. But - if you stand back and really take a look at the OP-
You can't see where he has been visible in calling things hate crimes when it is human beings who are black and losing their lives.
Maybe I'm wrong? If I am I will apologize to him.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I'm not taking the bait that this is or is not a hate crime. I don't know enough about the neighborhoods dynamics to speak to that. If you search this thread, I specifically offer no commentary about the racial aspect of the destruction other than the words of a single reporter from the NYT.
My only concern on this thread, is the long term destruction to this community and how they overcome what's happened there.
This concern doesn't outweigh the greater problem of police violence towards black men.
That is first and foremost the greater issue. This thread is tangential to that and caught my eye because of the lack of economic recovery in similarly riot-torn neighborhoods historically.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)So what conclusion am I to make?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You're acting like these two problems can be treated separately; they can't.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but it is, admittedly, a "chicken and egg" argument ... does The property loss feeds the poverty and segregation? Or, does the poverty and segregation feed the property loss?
No one destroys what is theirs ... It has been shown, people take much better care of the house where they hold the title/mortgage; than, they do for houses they rent ... Likewise, people tend to protect/protected the shop owners that treated the community members with respect, i.e., acted as community members, rather than, (and I know folks will react negatively to this word) "parasites".
treestar
(82,383 posts)I remember clauses in auto insurance policies - Acts of God or war or riots were not covered.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Riot, war and insurrection are not covered.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I don't see them reopening. It would cost a lot of out of pocket money to reopen. Sad. I was surprised when many here said it didn't matter about these places. I hope they were trolls and not liberal.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Who would want to take the risk of doing business in an area like that?
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Take the insurance, remove the rubble, sell the site, and write off the loss. That would make a lot more sense than rebuilding in a high-risk area.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Baltimore, rebuilding together, part of your community, blah blah blah.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)In any case, it will be a at least a year before they even attempted to rebuild the store. And we'll be 2/3 of the way into a Presidential election.
Somehow I doubt 10 seconds of positive PR will prompt a public company to build a store in an "unsafe" location.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)People move on quickly. In 6 months this wont be a front page story anymore.
I would be very suprised if they rebuild.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Most stores in those neighborhoods, including the chain stores, never came back. On top of the fact that they can't get insurance, they can't even get any loans to re-build.
roamer65
(36,747 posts)Endless rows of vacant lots, abandoned or burned out homes and empty storefronts.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Many people here have a hatred for anything related to "business".
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,716 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Boy they sure showed that neighborhood.
brush
(53,924 posts)there was $100,000 lost from the ATM of small neighborhood grocery store?
And there was no insurance to cover their loss?
Come on!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)The ATM and its contents are likely property of the sponsoring bank.
dsc
(52,169 posts)the cost of the shelves etc, the cost of the building, the cost of the ATM. I can easily see 100k
Yavin4
(35,450 posts)So, who really stole from whom?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Yavin4
(35,450 posts)So, in this case, no. I don't feel sorry that the ATM was stolen.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)I asked if it justified the looting
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)You know that for a fact, or are you just making that up to justify the destruction of this family's business?
BTW, you know that the ATM almost certainly didn't belong to this little business, right?
okaawhatever
(9,469 posts)taking advantage of the local market. Truth is, those fees are high everywhere you go.
Yavin4
(35,450 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Response to Yavin4 (Reply #64)
Name removed Message auto-removed
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Or was it sitting there waiting for people to VOLUNTARILY use it.
Logical
(22,457 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)I mean look what the evil "banksters" have done. Maybe they should go to Wall Street and loot there, we could cheer them on.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Lurker Deluxe
(1,039 posts)Now that the greedy bank owned ATM is gone, it gives you the opportunity to go purchase one and place it in a high risk area. Of coarse you will charge no fees for this service and when it gets vandalized, and it will, just call it a life lesson on how the world works.
Luck!!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Response to Yavin4 (Reply #36)
XemaSab This message was self-deleted by its author.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)That wasnt difficult to figure out.
Also, ATMs cost money, you have to pay somebody to fill it etc. It takes up space in a store.
treestar
(82,383 posts)shouldn't they look for Baltimore's version of Wall Street and break in and loot there? Hit the banksters and the corporatists rather than their neighbors?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)not a police officer in sight.
Because there appears to be ample evidence that they were told by the Mayor to stand down that day.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)sure had enough police for City Hall.
B2G
(9,766 posts)They just didn't stop it.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Especially on right wing sites.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Same thing here. Things have to be put in context.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)what was she *really* trying to say?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)they inadvertently gave space to the opportunists to start looting. It was not intentional.
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)She is of the mindset - we will see that area turned into a place of $1.2 million dollar brownstones and Starbucks with a Lulumon store and maybe a White House Black Market store. It will be back - but not what it was.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I remember back in the 90s half of the storefronts on 14th street were still shuttered (and plenty of lots were still burned down). U Street had Ben's (perennially) and that one chicken and waffles place, and that was it. You wanted groceries? There was Sonya's on 11th which might or might not have lunchmeat or produce that day. You wanted anything else? Take the bus to Ft. Totten and get on the Metro out to Maryland. Oddly enough, all of the complaints I heard about Target finally moving in were from white people who were worried the neighborhood wouldn't be "authentic" anymore; most people really liked that they could go buy underwear in their own neighborhood for the first time in a generation.
Anyways, my point is I'm sympathetic to the Nero argument here to some extent (he burned down parts of Rome to redevelop them), and I know Baltimore isn't DC, but it's an incredibly expensive way to do what already happens.
Starbucks with a Lulumon store and maybe a White House Black Market store. It will be back - but not what it was.
Yeah, but that was always true. Neighborhoods in cities change every generation or so, and there's not really a way to change that.
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)The children of the last of the great migraters? If you look at my preparatory high school class - those of us who are black? I'm the only as far North as I am. With the Great Lakes being so slow to come back to life? Baltimore could have some pick ups (that friend was one in early 2009 - scooped up a great home on the cheap post the implosion) of more affluent/rich blacks moving into it. That will drive the development as it did is some part of Atlanta. I.E. the Morehouse and Spelman grads going back to Atlanta 10/15 years later with their North East and West Coast Salaries - but a much lower cost of living.
When I was looking to leave the Great Lakes in 2004/2005 - Maryland/DC was third on my list of cities. Especially for the collegiate level of education and 'affluence' - there were more opportunities for social life/dating life in that area than say - Boston.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And that's not unusual. Atlanta, Charlotte, Memphis, Dallas... a lot of children of Migrators are heading back to the Old Country.
That will drive the development as it did is some part of Atlanta. I.E. the Morehouse and Spelman grads going back to Atlanta 10/15 years later with their North East and West Coast Salaries - but a much lower cost of living.
OK, now I really want to see if I can find a recording of Wilkerson's talk somewhere... I think you'd really be interested, because it's exactly what you're getting at.
there were more opportunities for social life/dating life in that area than say - Boston.
I'm a fan of Boston, though I think I'll always call DC home (specifically a four-block stretch of Georgia Ave, which is actually 7th St at that point).
I really wish more people had run with Wilkerson's story. The Great Migration is probably the most important sociological event in US history, and it needs a lot more study before we lose the last of the people who participated in it. The impoverishment of the South, the boom of the industrial midwest, white flight, black flight (another understudied phenomenon), the creation of the national black middle class (as opposed to the regional ones of the 1930s and before), mobility of labor within the US being used as a wedge issue by management, the (eventual) opening of unions to persons of color.... there's so much absolute historical red meat there.
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)I'd love to take a peek at it.
My dad spent the last 40 years of his life in town outside of Rochester NY - and he always referred to himself as an expat!
I went as far south as Central NJ - but being in Telecom and building on my career - you really only have 3 places to live if you want to work for what we used to a call a dumb pipe.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)She thought they were being ironic (the kids have a way of doing that) but that was actually what they said and as she asked around it seemed people meant that.
you really only have 3 places to live if you want to work for what we used to a call a dumb pipe
Amen to that.
If I can dig it up I will post it to AA here; it was an amazing speech.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)1. That writer saying those folks were targeted for being Pakistani is a really fuckin' inflammatory thing to dangle out there without further proof or corroboration...
2. The less said about that writer's slant and innate biases (especially his closing paragraph), the better...
3. I don't know how anyone dares run a small business without Liability, Property and Workman's Comp at the minimum, and don't anybody dare say she couldn't afford it...(In case anybody was wondering, this is the *real* nut of the story here, since this shop could have been burgled, struck by lightning, had an embezzling employee, a shady accountant, accidentally burned to the ground, sued, flooded, had some dangerously substandard/negligent work done by a contractor, suffered an accidental HAZMAT spill, had a drunk driver crash through the main window, a drunk pilot crash through their roof, etc. etc...And they'd *STILL* be in the same position, riot or no riot...)
4. How the hell do people run off with an ATM and not be seen?
1939
(1,683 posts)1. Try to carry liability insurance.
2. Have at most one or two employees and do not carry workman's comp (employees are often family members).
3. Are usually bare-assed for fire, driver crashing inot the store, robbery, theft, or riot.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and are now allegedly $100k lighter...
You can bet your ass they'll find some money for an insurance plan next time around...
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)Not even liability? I agree with 1strong - I'm calling b.s.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)in a high crime area, I'd bet big money their liability insurance policies have exclusions for things like riots.
I'm a rural farm/ag business and I have a force majeure clause in my liability insurance. I could pay a hundred grand/year to get that clause dropped but I can't afford that. This is a small shop in a depressed area - I'd find it bs if they DID have extensive liability insurance (or workmen's comp etc).
Liability insurance isn't all or nothing. All of them are negotiated. Live on a flood plain, your policy is going to exclude flooding for example.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)1. That's not a question
2. That's not a question
3. You have obviously never run a small business nor taken a chance nor been a poor immigrant desperate to climb up. Besides, you can have a bare bones insurance policy that still wouldn't cover what happened to them. and I'd argue the NUT of the story is that their business shouldn't have been targeted at all!
4. During looting people run off with everything from big screen teevees to toilet paper. The folks stealing the ATM were seen. Nobody's going to turn them in regardless of the size of the item.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Sensationalist headline aside, I'm gonna want some PROOF that these folks were *specifically* targeted, aside from the speculation of one person...
So please enlighten me, small business owner: What general percentage of small business owners would you say forgo all types of insurance completely?? Because I very rarely hear the word "uninsured" in the news when they get robbed or have a fire...
And now that I think about it, why is the ATM a major loss? Isn't that like someone stealing a leased coke machine?? It's not like he owned the physical machine and was responsible for all the money inside...
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)lay the fuck off me. I'm not some random whipping post. If you think the NYT hasn't satisfied you sufficiently take it up them.
As for insurance, they could have had it structured any number of different ways including a force majeure clause (which would be common in a high crime rate area). I'm not privy to what they were insured for exactly or not.
My neighbor also owns the same business as I do and carries no workmen's comp or trainer liability insurance. She's a fool but she says she can't afford it. She continues to operate her business despite that so I know firsthand people who make foolish decisions all the time when it comes to insurance.
Like I said, I'm guessing you've never done it before and certainly never done it while poor, since your making assumptions all over the place.
Lastly, as far as the ATM, for me, this story isn't about the goddamn ATM which I'm guessing IS insured by the bank that owns it. That tidbit is just illustrating how open the looting was at the time and is included as part of the story.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)This article only records two ideas:
1) That this store was looted. Demonstrably true.
2) That the owners suspect they were targeted because they were Pakistani. Of this they have no proof. It might be true, it might not.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I'm actually not arguing or debating the veracity of the statement that they were targeted while AA owned stores were protected fyi.
I was touched by the grieving community members over the loss of their community resources.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026588768#top
This is another part of that story imo and will have long lasting detrimental effects as we've seen in other riot torn neighborhoods like Watts, Detroit, Newark etc.
Furthermore, I'm not prioritizing the economic losses over the deaths of actual human beings and the grotesque injustices of those deaths despite others' attempts to put those words in my mouth.
Peace!
kwassa
(23,340 posts)The impression I'm getting is that this area is close to very gentrified areas of Baltimore. That might be the long-term outcome here, too. This is what is going on in DC right now, with the development of U Street. It might happen here, too.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I hope they are successful in persuading CVS to re-build but the fact remains insurance and re-building loans may be impossible to secure.
The historic precedent in other areas that have experienced similar isn't encouraging.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I seriously doubt that will happen. Nobody wins in this situation.
treestar
(82,383 posts)isn't that blaming the victim?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it's calling to question an unlikely claim.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's mostly speculation by the owner's niece and nephew.
No real evidence of what happened.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Please note the Your eagerness to put the blame on the store owner is appalling.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)The store doesn't have insurance coverage against theft ... I call BS.
JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)Would their landlord have allowed that? I would think they would need it under liability for insurance? I wonder if they were following the rules?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)While appearing to be such a horrible thing ... the, now, atmless shop owner is (likely) NOT out of the $100,000K.
I just got off the phone with a close friend whose family owned and operated a corner store (the business was sold when his father suffered a heart attack and my friend and his brothers, all lived in different cities and had no interest in going back to working 18 hour days, for $40k/year, net). They had an atm machine in the store. I posed this scenario to him and he literally dropped the phone laughing ... His first comment was, "What? Do you think an atm machine is like a pool table or pinball machine in a bar?!?"
1) The atm was, likely, not owned by the shop keeper, the machine was placed in the store by an atm (financial services) vender and the shop keeper, gets a space rental fee (or, might not).
2) The shop keeper isn't the one stocking the atm machine with cash, the owner of the machine does.
3) No atm vender would place an atm machine in a uninsured location (for just this reason)
4) No store housed atm machine contains $100K, it might contain $20K (if it's located in a high traffic area with no banks in sight)
5) If the atm was owned by the shop keeper DID own the ATM and had it stocked with $100K, they damned sure could afford/would have had insurance.
So I guess I should say about this loss:
Cool Story non-atm having shop keeper Bro!
So
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Pretty sure the $100K figure is referring to all of the merchandise lost. The ATM undoubtedly doesn't belong to the store owner. Don't let facts get in the way of your righteous rant, though.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)I know it adds up, but I wouldn't think to that much.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I would be willing to bet that the average convenience store has that much in merchandise.
treestar
(82,383 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)includes the mink coat, the 18 Rolex watches and the 20 carat Diamond ring missing from the storage room?
B2G
(9,766 posts)express sorrow about this family's plight and move on?
Do you think blacks are the only group impacted by this?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Where do you get that I might think Black folks were the only onestatue affected?
B2G
(9,766 posts)the family's loss.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I got this family lost an atm machine with $100k. This is a claim I disbelieve, for the reasons I have provided.
Now ... how does that translate to a belief that only Black folks were negatively affected?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The monetary loss is speaking to the store's contents.
The ATM comment was used to illustrate the extent of the looting.
This consistent, dishonest smear despite the facts, and your persistent refusal to read the article are a prime example of what makes DU suck.
Your posts on this reek of reverse bigotry and I'm sorry to see it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)and the black person wont give his or her place to the white person.
They are just being obnoxious you see, insisting on keeping that position they worked for, earned.
Not handing it over to the white person who is supposed to have everything, etc
In this scenario the black person is being bigoted to the white person
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Or, apparently, when a Black person voices disagreement with a (presumably) non-Black person and the (presumably) non-black person thinks the Black persons position is informed by the Black person's race.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)the ATM machine was simply illustrative of the extent of the looting if you read the article.
Everything large and small was taken, "including the ATM".
It's not connected to the store and having been owned by a bank is almost certainly insured by the bank.
But keep on making silly statements or read the article and get a grip.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)One can tell when one's arguments start running thin ... that's when the aggression starts.
treestar
(82,383 posts)My experience with such stores also is they don't own the ATM but get a cut for allowing it to be there. Also true of lottery tickets. They have to keep a separate account for those.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)2) The shop keeper isn't the one stocking the atm machine with cash...
the indian-owned store I get 40s from, one time their ATM was out of cash, and they asked me if they wanted me to put more cash in it!
i'd never even heard of that, and the most they would have put in it was a couple hundred bucks anway, so i'm not wading into the argument of the thread here; I just wanted to point out that it happened, and it surprised the hell out of me!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Im not in a high crime area and my small business liability policy has a force majeure clause.
Liability insurance isn't all or nothing.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That hardly seems fair - insurance companies get the premiums and then pay out nothing.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)so you CAN google.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)and I'm a rural/ag business so I'm not in danger of riots but if war erupts on my street, the damage I sustain is not covered for example. Insurance policies aren't all or nothing. I happen to live this reality daily.
Actually, thank you for the laugh. Someone looks silly....
Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #130)
1StrongBlackMan This message was self-deleted by its author.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Now THAT'S funny. Your desperation is hilarious.
My posting history and my hundreds of references to my horse training/organic veggie business are consistent throughout my many years here. My personal identity is also known - if you searched old DU I posted my personal story that was published in the Chicago Tribune by Dawn Turner Trice, a good friend and a prominent AA columnist.
I even posted a link to the reality genealogy teevee show that I was featured in, about the same story.
While I don't post under my real name here, I'm certainly not a mystery if anyone cared to take a moment to figure it out.
I can see you care not a whit for this community's long term prospects, and obviously anyone who suffered that isn't AA merely results in derision and disdain from you.
Pretty sad and says a whole lot more about you than anything else. Feel free to have the last word here.
B2G
(9,766 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,937 posts)At any given time between $100 K and $500 K in metals - copper being of extremely high value. He's also an immigrant upstart.
I cannot fathom not having insurance on your stock.
And he owns 7 Rolex watches that we riders on our home owners policy for.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)From time to time, my inner-asshole leaks through.
Sorry.
B2G
(9,766 posts)lewebley3
(3,412 posts)The city could help make the payments of his new policy:
they boy will not get back his life!
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)if everything was reversed the past 200 yrs, and white people were suffering this under the rule of black people, the property damage would be the last thing anybody would care about (because it would go WAY beyond minimal property damage)
I think there is enough evidence that the AfAm community is the most PATIENT and PEACEFUL imaginable, and based on the behavour of US white people the past 200 yrs, well I should not have to finish that comment.
Sudden "concern" about an ATM or CVS store is nothing but complete and total BULLSHIT hiding a different agenda
lewebley3
(3,412 posts)The boys life, can't be put back or made whole;
B2G
(9,766 posts)It's about the Pakistani family that was essentially wiped out.
Maybe you could muster up a smidgen of sympathy for them...
lewebley3
(3,412 posts)The Boy with snapped neck was wiped out for years: and lost his life
because of a bully cop!
The Pakistani family can rebuild, the boy can not rebuild he's dead.
1939
(1,683 posts)Just like all of those homeowners and renters in New Orleans had insurance and were made whole for their losses.
lewebley3
(3,412 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)much to our detriment
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)lewebley3
(3,412 posts)951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Or are you in the habit of calling all African American men "boys"? This is an offensive post.
lewebley3
(3,412 posts)Last edited Tue May 5, 2015, 10:45 AM - Edit history (1)
You are right, I should of thought about that, the news reports kept talking
about his mother looking for him.
I jumped to the conclusion, he was very young. (from his pictures I thought he was tall teen)
I am in the North, the word boy is not topically used to refer African American:
you are right it could be mistaken for something else. (I will be more careful)
Thanks;
Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
ann---
(1,933 posts)how does this help the cause of those who protested.
Looting is theft and setting fires is arson. Here's hoping
those who committed those crimes are caught and tried.
Disgracing Freddie Gray's family like that was wrong - period.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lets just really keep that in mind.
romanic
(2,841 posts)/sarcasm/
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)way to discuss, it is lazy.
do you think i am suggesting it is ok for white middle class to steal and get away with it?
that can be the only conclusion one draws from your fabricated argument you just gave me.
it is not even logical.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)The middle class in general - how much do we steal, Seabeyond?
Quantess
(27,630 posts)It sounds like you are implying that white middle class is a notorious crime bloc or something. You lost me there. Did you mean to say the banksters and wealthy oligarchs, super wealthy tax-cheats, but instead inexplicably typed "middle white crime"?
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)prior to the protests.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I've seen some truly disgusting comments in this thread.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)It's really the only thing worth taking.
RandySF
(59,413 posts)when they damage a business, they're not always hitting the 1%, but people making very thin margins.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)New Englanders looking at pumpkins aren't an oppressed minority seeking their rights. It's odd to me that so many people here make that comparison to call out people, but never follow it to its conclusion: somebody breaking in to a CVS and taking stuff is really behaving just like a college kid in New Hampshire.
This isn't rocket science. Alcohol + young males + bad police response leads to rioting in pretty predictable ways, and it's no more a "statement" than a stampede at a soccer match is.
ann---
(1,933 posts)looters and stealers have disrespected the memory of Freddie Gray.
Shame on them. I hope they were arrested and charged.
Beacool
(30,253 posts)In every one of theses recent riots, such as Ferguson for example, some of the businesses that were looted and burned to the ground were owned by AA. There are opportunists in every crowd, just like there are in every natural disaster.
I don't think that this business was targeted because the owner is Pakistani. It was targeted because they saw an opportunity and they took it.