"The Far Left"? WTF?

[DerekG]

"The Far Left"! "The Far Left"!!!!

I've seen this term a number of times around here recently, and I can't say whether I'm more confused or incensed. What in God's name constitutes "the far left?" Because honestly, I'm not much of a Leninist. I don't recall having a copy of Chairman Psychopath Mao's Little Red Book stashed under my bed.

However, I am an FDR liberal. I believe in taxing the wealthy up to their necks, universal health care, and living wages for each and every citizen. Come to think of it, I would have been right at home in the Democratic Party of FDR, Truman, Kennedy, and LBJ (well, as far as their domestic visions went...the Cold Warrior bit from the latter three is more complicated).

To all the so-called centrists and moderates, I'll make you a deal: Stop calling liberals like myself a "far leftist", and I'll refrain from labeling you a Wall Street-coddling schmuck.

[hrmjustin]

1. I don't call people far left.

And I don't coddle wall street.

[AuntPatsy]

2. Ditto here

[bjobotts]

70. Next time hear it used ask WTF it means. Like the liberal media i guess

[hrmjustin]

72. Bill O'Reilly uses that term to describe everyone on the left.

[billhicks76]

95. Lots Of Right Wing Democrats Posting On DU

[hrmjustin]

109. How do you define rw though? Yes there are posters that make me scratch my head and I think they

are either moles or people looking to test us.

[merrily]

186. Clearly, the Democratic Party has a right wing and a left wing.

The DUers who have been falsely condemning the Party's left wing as America's far, far left know that.

Ask them what they consider the far, far left.

[7962]

274. IMO, the "far left" are the ones who blindly support the likes of Maduro,

and Putin. Thats a start. There are other examples. But I'm sure THEY dont consider themselves "far left", just as the right wing dont consider themselves "far right". They just say they're conservatives.
I would say the GOP also has a right & left as well. Look at what the "leaders" say and then what the GOP polls show. A disconnect in several areas

[LiberalLovinLug]

299. Putin?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who has been labeled a "far leftist" such as myself, a Putin supporter. He's a right wing authoritarian mobster who persecutes the LGBT community, starts wars of aggression, and is in bed with the wealthy elite and the Orthodox church of his country. There isn't any leader in the world much more anti left than Putin. Or do you mean that anyone that finds any nugget of truth from RT must be, by extension a Putin supporter? Kind of like those watching Rachel Maddow on MSNBC must all be General Electric MIC supporters?

As for Maduro, recognizing the overt and covert attacks by the international capitalist elite on his country for daring to thumb their collective noses at the way they have been treated as a third world cash cow for decades is not "blind support". Its just recognizing reality. I wouldn't expect the IMF, the WTO or any of their backers to react any differently based on the history of their assumptions of resource entitlement of that region.

[7962]

324. Hey, merrily simply asked for an opinion.

It just seems odd to me that the same ones who always seem to have Putins back are also the same ones who constantly make excuses of all kinds for Maduro and his & Chavez's failures.
You say you are in no way a Putin backer, well thats fine. Then I wouldnt call you one of the "far left" here. And the post down from yours mentions Warren supporters being called far left. But I dont think they are. Its just my opinion, thats all. Maybe some others do.
I think folks who call for a 100% tax on the rich are far left simply because its unrealistic to push for such nonsense as that. Higehr taxes, sure.

[billhicks76]

302. You're Joking Right?

Putin? What planet do you live on? No...we are called far left for supporting Warren who used to be a Republican not that long ago. There are sell out opportunist that use OUR party to promote and market themselves to gain visibility and seek high office to enrich themselves and their friends like The Clintons who never met a Bush they didn't love.

[7962]

322. The question was asked what one considered far left;

I do NOT consider Warren supporters as far left. I said what I consider to be far left positions. And yes, some folks here constantly bash anyone who posts OPs critical of Putin, or post comments calling him out for his actions.
You can call yourself anything you like, the question was posed as to what people thought, and I simply answered with my opinion.

[merrily]

339. No, I asked no question at all.

This was the post of mine to which you replied.

Clearly, the Democratic Party has a right wing and a left wing.

The DUers who have been falsely condemning the Party's left wing as America's far, far left know that.

Ask them what they consider the far, far left.

See, no question mark and no question.

[7962]

345. Well, you said "ask them" so that implies a question.

I dont know why anyone got upset about a simple opinion on a couple things I personally feel harm the democratic party. Thats it.

[merrily]

346. My suggesting others ask someone a question is not the same as my asking a question.

I am not the least bit upset. I just don't want to be misquoted.

[7962]

363. Thank you. Sorry about the misrepresentation

[Dragonfli]

305. You think Putin is leftist? LOL! Man, with confusion like that I can see how any Dem not corporate

(That like regulated Capitalism, the New Deal, the Great Society, Civil Rights eg) might be considered far left. It is simply that many here have no idea what terms like right wing and left wing mean.

I will try not to take it personally, but for future reference the very basics (without getting into too many subtleties in the middle)

The farthest point left is Communism (workers control the means of production etc) - the farthest point right is Fascism, (The State and Corporations are basically co-rulers and fully dedicated to unfettered Capitalism, with the workers as simply tools to provide profit and productivity for both, this often includes but does not require strong arm rule by an all powerful figure like say Mussolini).

The actual middle of these is open for debate, but In this country the best example would be the policies of FDR, which actually was a balance between the then emerging American Communists and the very real American fascists. He pretty much saved Capitalism and was far from far left, but in order to save Capitalism he had to compromise using ideas from the Communists, (the only ones used being actually just Socialism lite) and creating strong checks and regulations to keep Capitalism from imploding (which it always does when left unfettered).

If you see people supporting things like welfare, progressive taxation, regulation, single payer, SS and the like they are not far left, those positions are actually centrist in the objective sense and merely center left in the political history of the US specifically.

Perhaps in the future you will not confuse Putin and his followers with any part of the left, or FDR Democrats (as an example) with far leftists, those guys would be the ones pushing for the workers to control the means of production and abandoning Capitalism altogether.

If they simply want to re regulate the financial industry (keeping Capitalism alive) for example, or expand the social safety net, the are just slightly left of center in reality as was FDR. It may be hard to see because the countries politicians have moved so far right that many could validly be called fascists, but that is not the fault of the center left like FDR Democrats such as myself so cut us some slack OK?

[7962]

323. Did you read the post I replied to at all? Or my answer?

I didnt say PUTIN was far left. I said I considered the people HERE who constantly deflect any criticism of him or the failure of Maduro, to be "far left". This IS democratic Underground, and these people also identify themselves as Dems and I imagine vote democrat. I didnt mention welfare or SS or any of your other points.
The post I replied to simply asked an opinion and I gave TWO examples. Then I get blasted by people thinking i lumped everything and everyone into a simple statement, like Warren supporters, which I NEVER mentioned!

[Dragonfli]

326. oh no, I caught all that, just your thought than anyone that supports Putin is a leftist

caught my eye, it showed kind of a misunderstanding. I was just laying out what left was so you could see Putin is none of those things and also to preempt thinking some other things were that aren't. I probably should have focused on what is anti left (like Putin) instead in retrospect.

To be honest, I am not really sure what you mean regarding deflecting criticism of Putin, an example may help me understand, I didn't think anyone here was a Putin fan, but, then again, I only read a portion of all posts as I am sure is the case with most of us due to the sheer amount of posts on this site.

[7962]

327. Well, I can give you a couple examples,

I dont usually like to give specific names, but here is an example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026299142
REad the 1st post. There is PLENTY of history to read more if you like.

Its the old "US is always at fault" type posts. Certainly weve made our mistakes, but all the worlds troubles dont originate from the US

And I guess after reading a lot of other posts by the people I'm thinking of, I came to that conclusion. Purely my own speculation!

[Dragonfli]

328. Thanks for the link, I'l look into it

[Dragonfli]

329. I don't get it, that appears to be anti Putin, not a kind word was spoken about him

by anyone in the thread. I don't understand Freds post at all however which was just kind of weird and cryptic (what conspiracy, other than Putin murdering someone which most likely happened?), in fact, every post beside that was quite anti-Putin.

The article has a paygate so I couldn't read more than what was posted but even the article was praising the ant-Putin activist that was murdered.

I have been here as long or longer than all the posters in that thread and know most of their posting habits (except Fred who is kinda new and I don't know very well), none of the rest are pro Putin or his fascist tactics, tho I will admit I disagree with a couple on some issues even if agreeing with them on others.

I think maybe you read more into it than I might have, which is cool, but all those posters are pretty safe bets not to be Putin lovers based on my varying experiences with them.

I will keep an eye out tho, I'd like to know if we have pro-fascist trolls running around here.

One thing tho, if you do find a Putin fan (or a group of them) they are not far left, Putin is sort of anti-left, and anyone agreeing with him is also, the guy is on the far other side of the spectrum, his being Russian in no way makes him Communist, by his actions and his policies this is known, even if he was KGB in the old Soviet Union (to your original point)

[LiberalLovinLug]

360. the old "US is always at fault" type posts

I have no idea what Fred Sanders was on about in that link. But as Dragonfli pointed out, every other post was anti-Putin. It was not even a clear pro-Putin post. Just some rant about conspiracy believers. Sounded like just one of those people that doesn't believe the word "conspiracy" is in the dictionary. And that a "conspiracy theory" is the same thing as "fairy tale"....despite multiple examples throughout recent history of them, from governments of all stripes, including the US. You are living in a fantasy if you think even 1% of self proclaimed "leftists" support Putin.

Which brings me to my post title. I would have just left you alone, as it seems like you are a little shell shocked from the reaction and probably felt you didn't get across what you meant to. But I can't let this go. To make a blanket assumption like that.

First off "its the old..." Like accusing the US of misdeeds is old and tired and overdone and thus meaningless.

Then "US is always at fault type posts". Implying that if you think the US is wrong about one policy, you are one of those "types" that can't say anything good about the country ever. Straight out of Ann Coulter's playbook...or any actual book she's written. Its a way to deflect ANY criticism,whether warranted or not, as just being sourced from those "type".

I do agree that there is a divide in America. You either accept that the US, especially with regards to foreign policy, has made "mistakes"...and face it in order to try and fix it....

or like you hear on Fox News every day, anyone that criticizes anything that the US does, no matter if its the truth or not, hates America, hates the Troops, hates God, and probably hates babies and puppies.

[7962]

364. I stated that we've made our share of mistakes.

The biggest one ever, to me, would be Iraq.
And yes, I also said I'm tired of so many folks who put all the worlds ills at our feet. Because thats not true either.
You read the first part and immediately connect me to Ann Coulter, Fox News, et al. Good lord thats a quick trigger finger.

[merrily]

340. No, the post to which you replied did not ask anything.

And, the OP is plainly about those who refer to traditional Democrats as the far, far left. Democrats who refuse to fall in line behind New Democrats or the allegedly "pragmatic liberals" of the Democratic Party.

[merrily]

338. Find me a post of mine that blindly supports Maduro, Putin or, for that matter, that blindly

supports anyone or anything. That is not who I am.

[WillTwain]

276. Right wing democrats put social issues ahead of economic issues - particularly unions.

Often they have a vested interest in a social issue, but have little regard for unions.

They welcome union support of their issues and the democratic party, but stand apart.

[Dragonfli]

330. I find economic and social issues to be of equal importance

I don't even believe you can have justice in one area without justice in the other. I wish my thinking was the norm, when I was much younger it was, at least in our party.

Today we have hybrids that incorporate right and left in a dichotomy that will never work well for anyone unfortunately.

Unions are very important if we are ever to reclaim economic justice for all of us in society, I wish those that ignore that at all our peril understood that.

[WillTwain]

358. It is sad.

unions get no love from most social groups and everyone suffers.

[Enthusiast]

149. If we believe in single payer universal health care they call us Fringe Left. Same as Far Left.

Every bit as insulting as intended.

[WillTwain]

279. Right-wing Democrats often have little time for unions.

I know many liberals that openly hate unions. The lack of concern for blue-collar union members certainly marks a difference between many in the "far left" and many in the right-wing of the party.

[arikara]

303. Obviously the ones who've been brainwashed by the librul media.

It always astounds me how so many people despise unions because they make more money and benefits doing the same job as them. They'd rather drag union members down to their level instead of bringing theirs up. Its bizarre.

[billhicks76]

362. RW Democrats Support...

The Drug War, Foreign Wars, Police Militarization, TPP, Wall St, Private Prisons and most of all Right Wing Democrats talk a good game but there actions betray them. Know them by their deeds and not their words.

[treestar]

315. No, most liberals believe in that

You don't get to pretend they don't just because they did not agree with you that it could be obtained in 2009-10.

I can support it but not think there are enough votes to pass it.

[Enthusiast]

344. I can say anything I want.

[brush]

228. Oxymorons IMHO. nt

[treestar]

313. those Democrats think they are on the left

It's you who called them right wing.

What's the problem with recognizing the reality? It's like people want to own the labeling of everyone a bit farther from them at every side. And pretend that everyone in this country is right wing. It's a relative measure, not an absolute. to me McCain is a right wing nut, but to some righties I've talked to, he is too liberal. It's just fighting over who gets to own the terminology. Some DUers might be somewhat to the right of you, but not so far as the Republicans are. So why fight with those Democrats anyway? You have a chance of alliance or coalition with them, much more so than with Republicans.

[MannyGoldstein]

76. But to be fair, you're a big fan

of people who coddle Wall Street.

No?

[hrmjustin]

77. Excuse me sir?

[MannyGoldstein]

81. Has Hillary Clinton coddled Wall Street?

Are you a fan of Schumer?

[hrmjustin]

83. NY senators always have relationships with wall street as have Democratic presidents.

This is life.

[MannyGoldstein]

86. OK, so what I wrote is correct? nt

[hrmjustin]

98. Schumer I am not a fan of but Clinton while not an enemy of Wall Street is not going to bow to them

whenever they want.

[Luminous Animal]

102. Show me a shred of evidence that she as challenged Wall Street.

[hrmjustin]

110. I think she just did by saying we need a new constitutional amendment to get rid of citizens united.

[rhett o rick]

118. Yes and candidate Obama said that we needed to roll back the Patriot Act. The nice label is

campaign rhetoric. To say that is easy for her. I would like her to come out and say that we needed to raise taxes on the wealthy.

[hrmjustin]

119. Thats fair. i would like to raise taxes on them as well.

[merrily]

180. They claimed they couldn't even pass a public option, but she's going to amend the Constitution?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776799

[hifiguy]

283. Well played.

Well played indeed.

[merrily]

336. Thank you,

but it's only that Hillary's play on this issue was so blatant, not that my seeing it for what it is is so skillful. I do appreciate your post, though. Every bit of encouragement sure helps.

[Plucketeer]

267. And lest we forget....

Single payer and an end to our meddling in the Middle East. Yeah - say what sounds good - do what you're paid to do.

[nashville_brook]

131. that's quite an easy thing to say. how long ERA has languished? 40 years?

[hrmjustin]

132. She is now on the record.

[JDPriestly]

136. Her opinion as president would not matter since the president is not

very involved if at all involved in the process of amending our Constitution. She can talk about an amendment, but she can't do much else about it.

[hrmjustin]

137. She can use the bully pulpit.

[merrily]

206. And, when it doesn't happen, we'll hear she is not king. Civics class. Congress. Blah, blah, blah.

Which makes it the perfect line for her to try to sell. That and 76% of Americans want it and she gets to sound like Warren without actually doing anything.

[hrmjustin]

234. Well I am a bit more hopeful but I understand that people are doubtful about it passing with reason.

[merrily]

236. If you think Hillary's not doubtful about it passing, I have a few bridges in my inventory.

[hrmjustin]

252. I am sure she has her doubts.

[merrily]

256. !00% doubt

[JDPriestly]

281. But what would attract the most press and public attention?

The contradiction between her own reliance on corporate money, very large sums of corporate money or her condemnation of the influence of corporate money in campaigns?

[hrmjustin]

282. The press will never be fair to her.

[JDPriestly]

285. And there is plenty to ridicule her about.

She could of course play the victim and rale at the nasty press that is picking on her. But how well would that sell with voters?

She has many good qualities and is a great leader on issues concerning women and children at least in terms of what she says and how she present herself in forums on that issue.

But I think she has a lot of vulnerability as a candidate.

The Republicans are worse, but in general, they have the corporations who own the media on their side.

You are touching on precisely the greatest vulnerability that Clinton has and that I have been pointing out.

Put yourself for a moment in the shoes of Karl Rove. (I know it's a disgusting thought, but part of strategizing is to think as your opponent would or is likely to think.) How would you attack and bring down each of the potential Democratic candidates? Then figure out which is the least vulnerable to effective attack. All candidates are vulnerable. Hillary is one of the most vulnerable. And also one of the most challenging because of the adoration she enjoys from her base. But it is easy to chip away at a candidate's base if you take an issue dear to that candidate's base and show the candidate to be hypocrtical about it.

We do the same thing with the Republicans.

No candidate will be invulnerable. But some are more vulnerable than others. Hillary hopefully has a plan to deal with this other than just playing the victim.

[hrmjustin]

287. Warren, Sanders, and O'Malley have vulnerabilities.

You take a risk on any candidate.

[JDPriestly]

288. Yes. But there is a particularly vicious strain of criticism of Hillary.

Warren has some vulnerabilities but her consistent stands on defenses of the middle class are a sort of moat around her potential candidacy. Very hard for the Republicans to cross that moat of sincerity and consistency between ideas and action and get a good strike at her.

Sanders tends to just shake off the criticism. And besides, he takes very little corporate money and is pretty consistent between his professed views and his conduct. He is not personally bothered by the talk about peripheral issues and has a great sense of humor.

O'Malley -- I don't know well enough. He seems to have an almost too understated personality to be a national candidate, but I could be wrong on that.

[hrmjustin]

289. Sorry but Clinton has been tried and tested.

The others we don't know if they can stand up to gop attacks natiin wide.

[JDPriestly]

292. She has been tried and tested and lost.

And lost against a candidate who had not been tried and tested.

So much for tried and tested. Sorry. I don't want to be rude.

[hrmjustin]

293. You are not being rude.

She came in very close. The popular vote split.

And this is not 2008.

[merrily]

191. Which makes it the ideal campaign strategy. That and 76% want it.

[merrily]

187. Just like Obama was on the record for a strong public option being the only way.

Again, http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776799

[WillTwain]

280. This is the problem for Hillary. Obama misled voters on so many issues, Democrats are gun shy.

From "a comfortable pair of shoes" to raising the minimum wage to EFCA, it is all hollow campaign rhetoric. Hillary sounds like an echo.

Hillary is paying for the unfilled campaign promises of previous democrats. Not to mention the actions taken while in office. The left does not run from the truth in nativist fashion.

[merrily]

337. Then, don't vote for Obama for POTUS in 2016.

[merrily]

181. ERA was much less controversial and is dead.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776799

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

193. If she does get in, using her first year to pass a renewed ERA would be both in character and

worthwhile. Not the most pressing need we have by far, but as we learn over and over again, with Presidents on the left, you get what they care about, not what you need. (With Presidents on the right, you simply get what the rich donors want, which is to hurt the poor more directly.)

[merrily]

179. Reality check. That statement by Hillary does not stand up to analysis. Not even a little.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776799

[awoke_in_2003]

140. She will bow

whenever they clap their hands, just like every president since Nixon (Carter excepted)

[Enthusiast]

150. An unhealthy relationship. Unhealthy for the people of the nation.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL] [URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[JI7]

133. Elizabeth Warren is a Fan of Schumer also

[merrily]

182. But not a fan of Wall Street, which is much more to the point

Schumer heads her caucus. What do you expect her to say about him?

[rhett o rick]

120. I see that the major divide is between the Progressives and Conservatives.

Left and Right. The problem comes in when those conservatives that are Democrats don't want to be in the same group as the mean Republicons, so they call themselves left. On social issues they agree with the Left but on economic issues, foreign policy issues, and the Security State they agree with the conservative right. Obama and the Right see eye to eye on fracking and the TPP. So when this group calls itself the left, then what do we call those that are liberal on social values and economic, foreign policy and the heavy handed security state? I guess the far left.

The Centrists, Third Way, Conservative Democrats, or whatever they choose to call themselves, are not progressives. Their economic policies will kill the 99%. The Left supports the 99%.

[hrmjustin]

122. I don't care for TTP and detest fracking.

I wish Democrats would not support them. But I will not shun those who disagree with me from the party.

And I think they might not call Themselves progressives.

[WillTwain]

278. Where are you on unions? Would you fight for union members?

[merrily]

188. That the left of the Democratic Party is the ideological far, far left is such bull pucky.

[rhett o rick]

248. Those that try to disparage the Left with the label "Far Left" refuse to actually explain why

they use that term. They won't explain how their ideology differs from that of the Far Left.

[merrily]

259. On one hand, they pretend liberals are bomb-throwing trotskyites. On the other

hand they are offended if you say they are not liberals or if you say they are third way or centrists or New Democrats.

[valerief]

3. I think they're people with an (ahem) agenda who use that term.

Possibly even paid shills.

[BrotherIvan]

10. And Candadians

*cough*

[cui bono]

17. Are those the ones with yeast infections?

Oh no, those would Candidians.

[Depaysement]

36. Or owners

Posing as Canadians.

[Phlem]

85. Dude I'm crying *cough*

Thanks for that.

[BrotherIvan]

213. ...

[Enthusiast]

151. Not the dreaded Candadians! Run for your lives!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Jesus Malverde]

333. .

Jesus

[hifiguy]

16. Eeyup.

For some around these parts FDR and LBJ were practically communists. We all know who they are and ignore them as appropriate,

[RKP5637]

30. Yep! Same here, ignore them as appropriate! Anyone can join DU. n/t

[jwirr]

50. Exactly.

[2naSalit]

58. !

On Sun Apr 19, 2015, 06:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I think they're people with an (ahem) agenda who use that term.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6534791

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

calls H20 man a "paid shill." Here is the thread the current OP refers to. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026532730 I agree that far left is not the right term to use, but people should be able to disagree without accusing others of being "paid shills."

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Apr 19, 2015, 07:10 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I "think" maybe Valerie is on to something, but using "thinks" and "possibly" are not true accusations.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think The OP is about people using the "far left" as a pejorative and not in reference to H2O Man thread.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That is not obvious except to a select few. Kind of a stretch.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would not presume to know to whom valerief is referring when she says "paid shills". I sincerely doubt it would H2O Man, however. And since there IS no one named, I don't see a reason to hide this post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps the alerter is too thin skinned about being a paid shill?? Just wow. I don't care what the comments were in another thread, in this one there's no there there.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[merrily]

194. I'd love to know who pays the left of the Democratic Party.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

197. Oh snap, 0-7? Heh.

I always get a chuckle out of unanimous juries.

[merrily]

200. Love the juror who said the alerter might be a paid shill.

That must have made H20 man feel vindicated.

[treestar]

166. More likely the paid shills are the ones blasting the Democratic party

at every turn. What a lame argument. Everyone who disagrees with you about the process is a "paid shill." Too easy.

[merrily]

215. No one pays to attack center right Dems from the left. Quite the opposite.

The Koch brothers backed the DLC when Bill and Hillary were getting it going. Sat on the Executive Council, too.

[treestar]

241. No one's a paid shill on DU

That's a lame cop out for people who don't have anything to say in the debate.

You disagree with me? You're a paid shill. Too easy. And is if people don't really have those views. Like I could not really support Obama, only people who are paid to do so can do it. It could never be a real position to take. The more you think of it, the lamer the argument is, as it would take Koch brothers' money to pay so many people to do it, thus it is more likely a right wing strategy.

[merrily]

245. Baloney.

[merrily]

190. Actually, they usually thrown in at least one more modifier, much as Republicans do.

far, far left

the radical far left

the far left fringe

And, it's all bs. The far left is Communist.

[PassingFair]

253. "wild-eyed latte-drinking Volvo-driving, birkenstock wearing liberals"

Loved it when they characterized we of the "far left" in 2004....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2243738&mesg_id=2243738

[merrily]

257. Sounds more like a New Democrat.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

284. And not only Marxist communism (with all the tendencies that entails) ...

... but anarchist-communism, as well, as the various anarchist collectivisms, syndicalisms, and Mutualisms.

[LiberalElite]

321. You can make money posting on here!?!?!!???!!?

[Jester Messiah]

4. Failure to lockstep with Cersei.

Er, I mean Hillary.

[PennyK]

66. LOL!

I just watched and so true!

[Enthusiast]

152. Well done.

[Warren Stupidity]

175. You have been awarded the internets.

[bread_and_roses]

217. LOL! good one! (n/t)

[Warpy]

5. I call myself far left because I am,

falling off the southwest line of that political compass thingie. I think it's a little hilarious, in a tilting at windmills way.

However, I feel a distinct chill every time I hear a rather garden variety FDR liberal called far left. Y'all are just left of center, IMO, in any rational political grouping, but not far from center.

And that's the problem. This country is no longer rational in any way and that scares the hell out of me.

I have no idea what the next few years will bring, but I doubt it will be good. Rich and powerful countries that go off the rails are not allowed to stay that way.

I hate it, but I am terrified of my fellow citizens and for my country, which I barely recognize any more.

[RKP5637]

32. Same feeling here. I view it as a politically unstable country. And the middle ground is going away

more and more.

[7962]

45. Dont worry, the far right scares the average voter a lot more!!

[Art_from_Ark]

141. Yeah, that's why the far right did so poorly in the last election

Oh, wait....

[7962]

185. That wasnt a national election. Easier to win in gerymandered districts

But most of the TEa PArty type candidates did NOT win. But the mainstream of the country thinks that side is whacko. Otherwise, why would Hillary be way ahead in EVERY poll? The GOP cant even stop attacking each other without an election even going on. And doing stupid stuff along the way

[Art_from_Ark]

196. It's not just gerrymandering

Think of all the governorships that the Republicans won last time-- and not just in "red" states. The Republicans also took control of the Senate by taking 9 seats from the Democrats-- and yes, Teaparty candidates won-- just look at Iowa, Kentucky, and Arkansas, home of the poster boy for Teapublicanism.

[7962]

243. But Hillary still has a huge lead over any GOP candidate.

Even after her mis-steps. I'm sure it has a good chance of getting closer, but so far most Americans arent buying what the gop is selling on their national platform
I've told my gop friends, if you're going to base your campaign on abortion and gay marriage, you're going to lose. More of them are starting to agree

[Art_from_Ark]

247. A lead over a hypothetical opponent doesn't mean diddly this far out

Heck, at one time Mark Pryor had a double-digit lead over Tom Cotton, but ended up losing to Cotton by 22 percentage points.

[cascadiance]

68. I wonder why so many "far left" voters are in states like Alaska, Nebraska, Arkansas, and S Dakota?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/04/minimum-wage-raise-passes_n_6095458.html

Alaska - 69% Far Left voters
Arkansas - 65% Far Left voters
Nebraska - 62% Far Left voters
South Dakota - 55% Far Left voters

Wonder why so many Democratic politicians avoided campaigned on this "far left" issue of raising the minimum wage?

Amongst so many other issues that were supported in a similar fashion by this group of voters.

I wonder why the media can't connect this very well.

Instead media like the Oregonian endorse things like "Open Primary" here in Oregon, which had less support than providing driver's licenses to undocumenteds here.

[ND-Dem]

146. +100. it's bizarro world. and the media are bought and paid for.

[Art_from_Ark]

155. Once the minimum wage became a ballot initiative, it was no longer a partisan issue

That is, voting to get more money for one's own work transcends political isms.

[merrily]

202. I'm all for increasing the minimum wage, but let's bear in mind,

that is not a government program and it does nothing for anyone who is not working.

[Dragonfli]

306. I often see people use a politician's rhetoric to raise min wage (as the only tool to help the poor)

and claim, "they are for the poor!"

When in truth, even tho raising the min wage is long overdue and will help some struggling workers slightly, what really needs to be addressed is the tattered and ever shrinking safety net, we desperately need to get back to the short lived war on poverty. The poor in this country are legion and only some of them can find any work at all, even minimum wage work (which in most places would realistically have to be higher than $15 an hour to provide a living wage).

I personally think we need government works programs that provide more than the subsistence wages that are to be found in the service industry, an expanded Social Security both in the amounts given to individuals and the age when it begins (I am thinking 55 actually because that is the point in this day and age when blue collar people and even many white collar ones are considered too old to be hired by those that are doing the hiring).

Welfare actually needs to be "unreformed" - Clinton's little experiment with "abolishing welfare as we know it" has proven to be a disastrous failure, I could go on, but really Merrily, you already know all this, this post is for the benefit of others.

[Art_from_Ark]

332. Great post

[merrily]

334. Yes. And anyone honest and awake sees what has been in mind for safety nets by

both Republicans and New Democrats.

[ronnie624]

331. Owned outright, by military contractors.

The media establishment is part and parcel to the corporatocracy. Its propaganda clearly reflects this fact. Those who await it to speak truth, are in for a long wait.

[Nay]

79. Right with ya there, Warpy. This country scares the shit out of me. The people here

have gone basically batshit in public and aren't even ashamed of it any more. I'm too old or I'd be GOOOOOONE.

[marym625]

113. couldn't agree more

It's frightening

[drmeow]

143. same here

Used to be a member of the communist party but found that I wasn't actually THAT left (this was over 15 years ago and I seem to recall something about not voting in the election for some ideological reason and I said eff that, I'm not giving up what little democratic power I have and handing things over to the right for a principle). I guess I would consider myself a socialist feminist if I had to label myself.

I think FDR was a little further from center than you suggest but his economic bill of rights would have needed to be passed for him to have truly been much off center.

I fear for the country and for the world in general which seems to have swung further back to the right (relatively, depending on how far left a country had gotten) than I am comfortable with. I hope it can swing back the other way but I don't think it will be in time to make a difference in my life.

I'm both terrified and in stunned disbelief of my fellow citizens and country.

[Enthusiast]

153. ^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^ "This country is no longer rational in any way"

Frightening possibilities.

[Warren Stupidity]

177. yup.

That is the sad truth.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

286. I'm with ya. n/t

[bvar22]

296. You advocate for the confiscation of all private property,

and organizing the population into Worker Collectives?

[Thinkingabout]

6. Maybe it is the posters saying Hillary is not left enough, this may make someone far far left.

[cui bono]

14. Why? Whatever someone else is does not define what "far left" is.

Especially "far far left", to use your phrase. Double far left would certainly have to mean communist. I don't think we have many communists posting on here. I don't think they could take it.

It's not a sliding scale. Just because both parties have moved rightward doesn't mean the political definitions have. That would be odd since we would then have to rewrite all of history and that would be quite a task.

So no, maybe, actually definitely, not.

[Dragonfli]

21. Hillary is center right at best, yet you keep redefining the spectrum

[Thinkingabout]

24. This is a UK chart, use the charts created in the US like this one.

http://ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm

[Dragonfli]

28. Oh, LOL that pop chart based on answers to questions and other soft rhetoric

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

This is an actual chart. With real methodology, the one you post even has disclaimers that it should not be taken too seriously by it's creators the website operators, rather than an actual examination of right left measures, yours is a plaything of the "on the issues" authors.

VoteMatch

Candidate's Political Philosophy

The below is a way of thinking about the candidate's political philosophy by dividing the candidate's VoteMatch answers into "social" and "economic" questions. It is only a theory - please take it with a grain of salt!
Social Questions: Liberals and libertarians agree in choosing the less-government answers, while conservatives and populists agree in choosing the more-restrictive answers.

Economic Questions: Conservatives and libertarians agree in choosing the less-government answers, while liberals and populists agree in choosing the more-restrictive answers.

I disagree with their entire methodology and what you posted clearly shows how inaccurate the charts based on their "special" interpretations of ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS really are.

I will wait until a chart based in reality using the actual right/left worldwide political spectrum criteria that is not just a toy does a new one for 2016 and the players in the game. Who knows, maybe she really has shifted dramatically into the "far left fringe" as your group calls it since 2008. I just can't believe some people actually think she is nearly a Communist. It boggles the mind.

[Thinkingabout]

38. It decides if you are libertarian or authoritarian.

The chart does not even show Bernie, Warren, Chaffey, O'Malley, wth, why would you link this chart on DU, I am a liberal, I am not libertarian or authoritarian. This chart does not serve your point at all.

[Dragonfli]

41. you either did not read my post or are clueless, I can help you with neither.

Last edited Mon Apr 20, 2015, 06:02 PM - Edit history (1)

You do however provide me with a modicum of amusement, for that I am grateful.

[Thinkingabout]

44. You say I am clueless, look at the chart you provided, does it have anything on the

Chart which indicates liberal. I did not furnish the chart, I hope you did not think the chart you furnished trying to prove Hillary is right and when I looked what it is rating is not the same as being Liberal, moderate, Libertarian, populist or conservative.

[Dragonfli]

56. slightly left to mid Left=liberal (far left is red territory) - clueless it is then, go to the site

read a bunch of stuff, then read a bunch more stuff in other places - learn about what left and right mean - what communist and fascist mean - what authoritarian and libertarian mean - what conservative and liberal mean.

Owe! Also learn what a reactionary is as well, it helps to understand the John Birch tea party idiots on the right. Maybe even learn about what neo-conservatism is and what neo-liberalism is (that will help you understand war hawks and free traders.)

It takes time, but it is fun to have a clue from time to time.

Good luck and good reading!

[Thinkingabout]

63. I know what right and left means, the chart you furnished does not show conserative, moderate

Populist, or Liberal, it does show authoritarian and libertarian. It does not rate Democrats.

Perhaps your clueless should include Democrat.

[Dragonfli]

64. it would reveal all that to you if you did understand right left etc. /nt

[Marr]

73. Uh... yes, it does.

You seem to have no understanding of the different political labels.

[laundry_queen]

107. Yeah

someone needs to find an online poli sci 101 course.

[merrily]

223. As Upton Sinclair observed,

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Doesn't have to be a salary, though. Could be almost any incentive.

[merrily]

207. There is a third possibility.

[Ed Suspicious]

94. Libertarian as a political concept, not as the Libertarian party. It's how the scale works. Do you

prefer personal and civil liberties or do you prefer repression of said liberties? It's not communicating what you think it's communicating.

[Thinkingabout]

103. My question is where is the Liberal, Moderate, Populists, or Conserative section.

The chart was comparing different things. Apples and oranges and only showed a few of potential candidates, why did Bernie, EW and other not on the chart. Chart is not proving anything.

[Dragonfli]

114. You will have to wait until the primaries to see a chart showing you the R and D players for 2016

As for the rest, the two axis thing is not complicated and shows the answers to most of your questions in graph form, but you will have to learn what the terms mean first.

Quite frankly, I lack the patience to explain it all to you, but the poster you aqre replying to has already explained one axis to you, perhaps others with patience can teach you the rest.

[okasha]

124. That's because it's several years out of date

and may or may not reflect anyone's current positions.

[Dragonfli]

128. the 2016 chart will come during the primaries

You make a good point tho, Compare Obama '08 to Obama '12, there was indeed a shift.

I suppose it is possible for Hillary to rocket over to the left side, hey, anything can happen.

[Dragonfli]

255. That was a very thoughtful, intelligent, and patient answer to the poster's questions

You hopefully helped him/her understand things a bit better. I have grown too impatient to address that poster as thoughtfully as you just did. If you interact with that poster long enough, you will likely grow impatient as well.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

291. This really does need to be emphasized ...

One can be a progressive without being liberal, as with myself. Yes, liberals are left of center, but still believe in "market" solutions to economic/social organization. I don't.

I am a progressive socialist in the anarchist tradition. In that order.

[Mnpaul]

310. Libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian

Unlike your chart. populism is not the opposite of libertarian.

Populism is a political doctrine that appeals to the interests and conceptions (such as hopes and fears) of the general people, especially contrasting those interests with the interests of the elite.

anyone(conservative or liberal) can adopt a populist position.

any chart that scores Warren the same as Clinton should not be trusted. They have vastly different stances on the issues.

There are libertarian Dems(who believe in liberty and the rule of law) and there are authoritarian Dems(who feel they need to take away your liberty to keep you safe).

[rpannier]

34. Interesting thought

If I understand you correctly, it's the political position of where the person making the accusation is standing.
If I am say, left, then someone who is center-left I might view as being slightly right wing

[Thinkingabout]

47. Perhaps some would believe this but when you compare the charts of different people on the issues

Is where I am getting my information.

[rpannier]

57. Okay. Fair Enough

I didn't understand you correctly
It still made me think about it more though

Thanks

[Marr]

69. Hillary is-- according to her-- a "centrist".

That is, someone at the rightmost edge of the Democratic Party. Someone who works well with Republicans.

If you think that's good, ok-- you're entitled to your opinion and every party has a right fringe. But the rest of the party is not 'far left'. You are far right.

[Dragonfli]

80. Actually from previous discussions I have learned that thinkingabout

Thinks not only that Clinton is a "hardcore liberal" (very left) but also that she is the same as Elizabeth on the right left scale based on this pablum:

omtheissues Hillary Clinton


So s/he views anybody to the left of Hillary pretty much off the chart far far leftie, thus explaining her strange post.

edited to add: it appears impossible to dissuade her belief that Clinton is far left and equal to Warren on the scale, lord knows I have tried. I suspect s/he will be completely impervious to the fact you provided regarding Hillary's own self declaration as a centrist, to this poster, that chart is the infallible word of Goddess.

[daredtowork]

123. lots of contradictions there

thinkingabout has declared allegiance to the Third Way and to be a union member...in the same sentence.

thinkingabout repeats numerous Fox talking points about SSI fraud meant to justify dismantling SSI - but if you point out that spreading rightwing propaganda against "entitlements" is not a Dem stance, he/dhe will accuse you of being a Republican using "Rovian tactics".

I attempted to call this person out to MIRT, but too many posts. By the time someone explained to me how to bring the case to Skinner, there was already the careful record of pro-Hillary posts there.

But I'm heartened by the fact I'm not the only one has seen the Fox Facts emerge behind the pro-Hillary mask. Just know what you're dealing with here.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

208. See, you're not allowed to bring up what the candidate says about themselves, that's not fair.

When Hillary calls herself a centrist, or Obama talks happily about Reagan and talks about what he is being called a Republican in the 80s, we're all supposed to ignore them, and listen instead to pseudonymous people on the net who proclaim them 'liberals', and proclaim 'centrist' a vile insult.

[nashville_brook]

7. we were just talking about how the friction here

seems to have actually mobilized the progressive base.

[liberal_at_heart]

106. We're tired of being told who to vote for and insulted and bullied when we dare question or

criticize. I have a feeling those days are over. It is so freeing, like leaving an abusive relationship.

[nashville_brook]

129. yes, and we're aware that not everyone here is rank and file

there's plenty here who work within the party structure. they should know that showing contempt for the base isn't how you mobilize folks. hopefully they'll get their shit together. because that's not a strategy to win.

[JimDandy]

134. Well said!! You should make this its own thread.

"It is so freeing, like leaving an abusive relationship."

[merrily]

209. Didn't hurt, but the coronation attempt is far more incentive than anything that

happens on a message board. JMO.

[burrowowl]

8. To paraphrase Gore Vidal

The U$A only has 2 right wings.
There is not even a left, let alone a far-left.
Today, Eisenhower would qualify as very left of center.

[appalachiablue]

20. +1

[merrily]

210. No, Eisenhower just had a public face that was very different from his private one.

As to Eisenhower, Nixon or any Republican who had Presidential aspirations then, remember: FDR won 4 elections and Truman defeated not only the Republican, but two challengers from within the Democratic Party, as well as about four or five challengers from the left of the Democratic Party. Any Republican who wanted to be President and to be re-elected knew what he had to do. Also, Eisenhower and Nixon had Democratic Congresses because FDR's coattails were about 40 or 50 years long.

[Half-Century Man]

9. How far left is too far?

I believe in socialistic practices, like:
a completely public school system
a completely public correctional system
a completely public military
a completely public health system
completely public monitoring of the environment
completely public monitoring of workplace safety
completely public system for collecting the financial resources to fund public actions (taxes) progressively structured so the ones reaping the greatest reward shoulder the greatest burden.
completely funded campaigns at local, county, state, and federal levels.

Do I qualify to be Stalin's left hand man?

[hifiguy]

42. According to the Turd Way shills

that makes you practically a Maoist.

[Oldtimeralso]

54. Where do I get my little Red Book? n/t

[Dragonfli]

117. Step out your back door, step 13 paces to the left, the Worlwide Red Menace Brotherhood

Has buried your copy in your yard there while you were posting confirmation of your membership!

Thank you for choosing RED!

[Moostache]

52. I believe all of that as well...

I would throw in mandatory term limits in government and we would completely aligned.

[7962]

53. Whats a "completely public military"?

[yeoman6987]

61. I think and I could be speaking out of line but

No more contractors and definitely no more private businesses like Halliburton.

[Dragonfli]

62. I took it to mean no mercenaries or other contractors (I may be out of line as well but I think

we got it right.)

[7962]

78. Oh, ok. I was thinking in a completely different direction!!

[Half-Century Man]

144. What I mean is

As the United States of America, we will never use any military contractor.
Not in any operational capacity'
Intelligence agencies should be included. No Intelligence contractors.
Every aspect of the military must be under strict civilian control.

Members of the military should come from all levels of society.
Recruitment should be augmented by the Draft.
No member should serve multiple combat tours during the same enlistment (1 year out of every 4)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

216. I would agree with all of that but the draft.

If you can't convince enough people to fight, then you don't 'deserve' to have a war.

And that includes paying for it as well. Any 'theatre of war' operations should be paid for voluntarily by those who support that war.

No one should be forced to fight for (or support in any way) a war in which they don't believe.

[7962]

246. I agree. We have a great military force that is volunteer.

I think it should stay that way. People who WANT to be there are going to do a better job than those forced to be there. Its not 1942 anymore
But its not realistic to try to bill individuals for a war, either.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

251. Why not? Very few of our wars come out of nowhere, without any sort of foreshadowing.

Make it an 'opt-in' website, sort of like 'GoFundMe' or 'Kickstarter'. You only get to spend what people donate. They don't donate enough, you can't have your war.

[7962]

273. Because if we actually did that, everything would end up funded that way

and we'd end up with nothing EVER getting done!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

275. Really? We might get far more done.

Especially if you got to allocate some percentage of your taxes that way. I think very few people would deliberately allocate for wars, and far more for services to the poor and infrastructure.

[Demeter]

239. No mercenaries--like Blackwater/Xe/Academi or whatever they are calling themselves now

No secret US State-Dept. funded plots to overthrow democratically elected governments in Venezuela, Honduras, the Middle East, Ukraine...

I could go on, but there's dishes to so.

[pampango]

170. An excellent list, particularly since "a completely public health system" sounds like an NHS

as in the UK which is the direction I think we should head.

[libdem4life]

11. I like that FDR Liberal title...I've been a bit confused myself. I'm thinking about Democratic

Socialist...thanks to Bernie. Somehow Liberal became a pejorative, maybe that's when Progressive appeared? Now we have 3rd Way, too. I'm confused, but will still fight for all those things you mentioned...including the Cold Warrior exception.

[cui bono]

15. Third Way is not synonymous with liberal or progressive if that's what you're saying. n/t

[libdem4life]

230. Asking...I'd pretty much figured that one out...what used to be maybe a little left of

what used to be a Moderate Republican?

[Ed Suspicious]

101. 3rd way is exactly that. It's a break from either left or right. It tries to fall somewhere in the

middle. I think it's basically an fiscal republican melded with a social liberal. I prefer liberal.

[Dragonfli]

105. You got it exactly right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12774832

[Enthusiast]

157. +1

[libdem4life]

233. That's a great description...thanks. I'll read it again. I see how it happened...I checked out

during Reagan...we had him first as Governor, then couldn't stomach his Presidency and that he was re-elected knowing he probably had Alzheimers. Talk about a puppet (no offense intended to Alzheimer's,,,he was always a puppet.)

[libdem4life]

231. That's what I was used to, but I really resonate with Bernie's ideas, although I'll vote for a

the Nominee.

[KingCharlemagne]

112. Bernie Sanders may call himself a 'Democratic Sociaist' (and bliess his heart

for having the courage to do so) but, so long as he believes that the means of production should be privately owned and controlled, he is still a Capitalist. The most one can objectively say of Sanders is that he is a 'Social Democrat' (akin to his European counterparts of the same name).

The day I hear Bernie Sanders call to nationalize the banks and health care industries is the day I will start to consider him a 'Socialist.' Until then, meh!

[libdem4life]

238. Actually I've heard him compare himself to the European Social Democrats.

And I'm with you on the last paragraph...and since few in the US know what Social Democrats, guess I'll have to stick with Liberal. I have no idea when we could even find a candidate who would press for that "radicalization" of federal government. He did say he was for Medicare for all...which would be even better than single payer, I think. But the banks thing is going to be the hardest.

If Hillary wins and starts the Ship of State a bit back to the Left, and we get Julian Castro after her...he's got true Leftist credentials...then I think we'd be on the right path and that last sticking point could be worked on. I'm not sure the people understand or want it right now, so would be difficult for any politician to pull it off.

I must say, that I applaud Bernie for getting out there and at least "trial ballooning" some of these issues "foreign" to the US. It's harder because of our history...rugged individualism.

[Kelvin Mace]

12. The far left

Is anyone to the left of the speaker invoking the term.

[hifiguy]

18. Blammo.

Bull's eye.

[Fearless]

43. +1000!

[Maedhros]

13. On DU, anyone railing against the "far left" is either absolutely ignorant

or peddling right-wing bullshit.

[Jefferson23]

23. +1 When I see it utilized I laugh and see it as their attempt to give legitimacy to right wing/hawk

positions..often regarding foreign policy. The far left and the far right are the same meme lol

[bullwinkle428]

59. WORD. Think of the highest-profile person in the media who uses

that term regularly:

[stillwaiting]

172. Damn right. Some enjoy trying to upset FDR Democrats though. It's obvious. nt

[merrily]

203. +1

[BrotherIvan]

224. Or Canadian

*cough*

[Maedhros]

268. All my Canadian friends are New Democrats which are to the left of the Liberals.[n/t]

[BrotherIvan]

314. It's an inside DU joke

There is a Canadian here that loves one word answers and slamming the Left.

[Maedhros]

317. I suspect I know of whom you speak.

I have had that poster on ignore for quite a while.

[BrotherIvan]

319. You're not missing anything

As you already know.

[Jesus Malverde]

19. DUZY...

Stop calling liberals like myself a "far leftist", and I'll refrain from labeling you a Wall Street-coddling schmuck.

[ND-Dem]

22. kr

[reddread]

25. accountability only goes so far

someone has to take the blame.
punch a hippie today!

[BainsBane]

26. I agree that left or far left is not an appropriate term

for the group in question.

[m-lekktor]

27. just laugh at them, don't take it seriously.

it's the only way they can defend her, they can't bring up the issues.

[SHRED]

29. bravo

K and R

[rpannier]

31. I've been called far left many times over the past decade

Funny thing is... my politics haven't changed much since the 70's and back then they were considered left of center

It's basically people who are trying to justify their support of something or someone by trying to attack others -- Bill O' Reilly does it all the time. Some people here have picked it up

[TheKentuckian]

33. It is just something stupid conservatives spit like venom regardless of party affiliation when

any opposition to their vile agenda presents it's self.

[Phlem]

90. Oh my friend it's not just conservatives.

[TheKentuckian]

121. No, at least for the most part that is who they are if they believe anything at all whatever they

identify as or even honestly believe they are.

Much of it is we are a nation cursed with a disproportionate amount of radical far right loons really brushing up neigh onto the borders of their own extreme edge which allows a framing and ideological distance that makes even fairly conservative comparably liberal seeming and anything around center to be definitively leftist to "far left".

[merrily]

221. +1

[Phlem]

254. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[treestar]

242. You haven't seen on DU how

supporters of Democrats are accused of this by people who present themselves as further left?

Face it, all of these tactics plague the immature people of both sides.

[liberal_at_heart]

35. It is election season. That means it is going to get mean, nasty, and ugly.

Personally, I don't understand why it has to be that way. Why can't people just leave each other alone and let each other vote for whomever they're going to vote for? Why the need for all this nastiness? But it is what it is. I've been using the trash and ignore buttons a lot lately.

[Martin Eden]

37. I was called worse today.

In this post I responded to someone who flung the term TeaLeft purist at me when I argued that Hillary's vote for the IWR is inexcusable.

[Dragonfli]

46. Oh dear, I guess all of us that opposed the Iraq war need to purchase tri-cornered hats

"War is cool man, I want to hang out with the cool kids", I shall reply from now on regarding that Hillary issue.
I just don't like cos play or tri-cornered hats, so I must "evolve" on needless war instead I suppose.

[Hissyspit]

84. "TeaLeft Purist??"

Oh, for fuck's sake...

[liberal_at_heart]

89. I was in a thread today where a poster compared us to the mob that killed Jesus and Joan of Arc.

I asked when the Nazi comparison would be coming.

[Hissyspit]

91. OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE...

[Scootaloo]

164. DU is being colonized by disgustingus

[KingCharlemagne]

115. What is a 'TeaLeft purist'? That is some seriously demented foam-spitting

invective. I chimed in on the source thread in your support, btw.

[Martin Eden]

176. Thanks

I've seen a lot of bullshit in DU, but "TeaLeft purist" is downright demented.

I will never, ever, stop reminding people that our country needs to learn some critically important lessons about the war in Iraq. It saddens and sickens me to see DUers excuse or ignore that atrocity.

[daredtowork]

126. lol

Okay, that pwns "freeper vermin".

*considers designing a t-shirt*

[merrily]

220. TeaLeft purist? ROFLMFAOPIMP.

Rolling on the floor, laughing my fucking ass off, peeing in my pants.

[libdem4life]

250. I'm so glad you spelled that one out...had me there for a minute...LOL Thanks for the chuckle.

[merrily]

258. My pleasure. I am 100% in favor of chuckles.

[LondonReign2]

227. Time to clear my ignore list again so I can see which jackass this was

Amazingly, said person is still allowed to post on a Democratic site.

[Omaha Steve]

39. K&R!

[PBass]

40. You don't think there are super-liberals who talk about "tearing down the whole system"?

I would call them the Far Left.

"The entire Democratic Party needs to go" or "the Democratic Party is beyond fixing" etc.

What else would you call them? Not Democrats. Democrats don't want to break up the Democratic Party.

I do agree with some far left positions - I think utilities like natural gas and electric should be nationalized, for example. I don't agree with throwing out the baby with the bathwater, and IMO that's what they want to do.

[Moostache]

48. I'll make them a better deal:

To all the so-called centrists and moderates, I'll make you a deal: Stop calling liberals like myself a "far leftist", and I'll refrain from labeling you a Wall Street-coddling schmuck.

I'll make them a better deal:

Start calling yourselves what you really are - moderate Republicans (they are not mythical, they are hiding in plain sight as nominal "Democrats&quot .

The sick brilliance of the GOP is that by making their own party the home of lunatics and fanatics and forcing out the moderates, they simultaneously have diluted the opposition party to the point of being able to run a 40+ year financial experiment that has taken us from prosperity and equitable (or at least more equitable than NOW) division of profits between "labor" and "ownership", and its done so with no crippling consequences - which the entire "trickle down" theft of wealth should have brought on them.

The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.

Sick men said that, believed it and lived it to the horror of Western civilization. It took a combined effort that was unheard of in human history before or since to defeat them the first time. When they came back, they did it as advertised - wrapped in a flag and beating a bible.

Now we have men (and women) who believe in fascism and oligarchy and have established both once more. They just have not declared it openly, yet.

[hifiguy]

290. Today's "moderate Democrats" and "centrist Democrats"

are for the most part former or actual moderate or slightly conservative Repukes who could no longer abide the stark, staring, fly-eating religulous insanity that has taken over that party. Their basic economic conservatism didn't change with the rebranding.

The party was sold to them bit by bit by the DLC, and now the Turd Wayers. But first and foremost among the salespeople were the Clintons. And they have profited handsomely.

[Agnosticsherbet]

49. It bothers me to see "far left" used here in the same way Republicans use "far left."

[HereSince1628]

51. It's not subtle like a dog-whistle...don't think it a dog whistle

It comes from a differently situated point of view, a view of the whole taken from an omniscient-like overview of the whole...left center and right.

It's a viewpoint that allows a person on the right of the democratic party to be described as a centrist (in terms of the whole body politic) Of course if the right is center, then the left must be farther left, but farther left is too cumbersome, far left makes a much better label.

So to repeat myself...this comes from a narrator's perspective being placed -outside- the left so as to yield a sense of speaking from a more informed position with it's broader perspective.

It's not about the left, it's indicative of the narrator and the view from where he observes.

[Doctor_J]

55. That insult started about the time the president decided mandatory for-profit health insurance was

a great solution to our problem. And it's gotten more prevalent with each disaster perpetrated on the party by the "centrists" (Reaganites). On the upside you got to witness them destroying the party. One of them told me recently that Heritage Care was as great as all of LBJ's Great Society initiatives put together. They'e gotten as thick headed as the Limbeciles.

[Yorktown]

60. There is a Far Left just as there is a Far Right

In everyday words, I'd say people Far Something (Left/Right) are so far gone in their own theories they can't hear or relate with people at the other side of the aisle.

Someone who starts calling people names like Rethuglicans or Demonrats is proplably far out. Someone who says the poor are lazy and should meet their darwinian end is probably rather far out. Someone who says Wall St execs should be hung from lampposts might possibly also qualify as far out.

[Enthusiast]

159. How about Wall St execs just go to prison like regular criminals?

Seems to me that would be a centrist position. Special justice considerations for white collar criminals would not be centrist by any measure.

[Yorktown]

365. Didn't Madoff get sent to prison?

Or the boss of Enron? Wasn't that of McKinsey grilled?

[Enthusiast]

368. Madoff ripped off the wealthy so he had to be punished to set an example.

Enron was a pittance compared to the systemic institutionalized fraud that transpired since. Besides, Key Lay never spent a moment in prison after they faked his death.

[Yorktown]

372. Madoff robbed average folks too

I remember a middle income couple who placed all their retirement savings with Madoff.
The whole thing burst when they were 70.
The man killed himself, and the wife took McDo jobs.

Besides, you know very well tons of high income folks are fairly decent.

[Buns_of_Fire]

211. Well, I wouldn't COMPLETELY dismiss "the lamppost solution".

Although, as I've mellowed over the years, I'm willing to compromise for a few days in the stocks and a public flogging (to be televised on pay-per-view).

[Yorktown]

366. Comrade Stalin, I've recognized you.

Cutting that moustache of yours didn't prevent me from recognizing your features.

[Skittles]

65. the swooners again?

the apologists?

[Marr]

67. The 'far left' is any part of the part that is not on the right fringe of the party, according to

the sorts of people who berate the 'far left'.

Their politics align with people who exist on the very edge of the Democratic Party, by definition. The self-described "centrists".

[allan01]

71. hem

i am a centerist to left and id like to see those bankers go to jail. so there . and if iceland and greece can send these theves to jail so can we.

[PBass]

74. Maybe I'm just uninformed, but

aren't Socialists considered far left?

If not, where do Socialists fall on the political spectrum. IMO, it's on the far left. Certainly there are "further left" positions than Socialist, but I wouldn't call Socialists "moderate Left".

Also, I don't see people here using 'far left' as an insult (maybe I missed it). I don't use it as an insult. And I don't think anybody should consider it an insult. Just like calling someone a Socialist is not an insult. But lets be accurate about where are viewpoints lie on the political spectrum.

If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

[Enthusiast]

160. The term Far Left is often used to insult, to suggest a poster has an unreasonable position.

This happens when posters are merely defending organized labor, taking a position against devastating free trade deals or advocating single payer health care. These things are not Far Left.

If a majority of the American people want to:

Stay out of new free trade deals.

Enact a Medicare for all Public Option.

Protect the tax payer from the dangerous Wall Street derivatives game.

Protect Social Security.

These issues are centrist because they are supported by a majority of Americans.

[haikugal]

183. This ^^^^^

[MissDeeds]

75. Well said

Thank you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

82. "What in God's name constitutes "the far left?""

Nearest I can figure,...it's anyone that doesn't adore Wall Street.

[Phlem]

87. Or Communists

I'm thinking it's a privilege to be considered a pinko!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

88. There needs to be more of us in charge.

[truebluegreen]

92. Hear, Hear!

[MiniMe]

93. I think that is Bill O'Reilly's catch phrase

[marym625]

96. K&R! Big time!

[Scuba]

97. As a "far-left radical" I support far left radical ideas like Social Security and Medicare.

Yep, I'm way out on the fringe, just like most other Americans.

[whereisjustice]

139. lol, aint that the truth, +1

[liberal_at_heart]

99. FDR liberal. I like that title. I'll wear that one proudly.

[whereisjustice]

100. critical of Hillary's corporate debt, I was called a leftist version of the tea party, but thruth is

centrists have become extreme, and like the right wing, use terms like "the middle" and "moderate" to really mean they are hardened extremists.

They are confident that Hillary will win and they are sure they'll finally be able to purge the democratic party of anyone who might remind them that morals and ethics have a place in modern politics even when not politically opportunistic.

[Enthusiast]

161. If they are hardened extremists they are not centrists.

[Maedhros]

270. They are not centrists, they are personality cultists. [n/t]

[JaneyVee]

104. Links?

I won't hold my breath.

[one_voice]

108. Cheerlearder, swooner, apologist,

bootlicker, bot, turd wayer, authoritarian, these are just a handful of names other liberals are called. I guess now we can add, Wall Street-coddling schmuck to the list.

Here's a better idea, stop calling names period.

[treestar]

168. Yes, exactly

They always play the victim while doing the same to others.

[pampango]

171. Good point. DU's "circular firing squad" puts much energy into insulting each other rather

than discussing issues and strategizing how to achieve our policy goals.

[MisterP]

111. the less factual stuff they have the more they have to rely on rhetoric

it's not 2002 any more: they can't say "the Dems are our only hope against war and Wall Street: don't vote third-party, I'm sure they'll welcome a primary challenge!"

[UpInArms]

116. I always say that it is far better than being a

Jackbooted Nazi thug

[Rex]

125. People with no care in the world about America, they don't live here

stir shit all day long. The pretend to understand our problems better than we can and hate it when you point out they are sometimes clueless.

They have no idea how American politics works any better than what they read about by their nations news outlets. Shit stirring, ignore it imo. They use those kind of keywords just to piss of Americans.

[TheKentuckian]

127. I don't give a damn what lame venom they spit and will only refrain from labeling them Wall St

coddling schmucks when the the behavior changes not their finding a bridle for their tongues.

[Zorra]

130. Some here seem to believe FDR was "Far Left". nt

[JDPriestly]

135. I too am an FDR Democrat. I am not a socialist although I back Bernie

Sanders. His brand of politics is more pragmatism than socialism from what I can tell. I am certainly not a Communist. I am simply an FDR Democrat, and a lot of people who call themselves Democrats are more like the Republicans of the 1960s and 1970s.

[Major Hogwash]

138. Depends on what you think moderate means.

If you believe all of what you just said you stand for, and you're from a state that starts with the letter "I", then you would be considered to be on the far left.
I, too, am on the far left according to many of the people that live here in Idaho.

But, in California, I would just be considered a moderate, not really far left.
It's all relative.

[MFM008]

142. Just what the republicans love

democrats fighting.

[Maedhros]

271. Another thing the Republicans love?

Meekly acquiescing to Right Wing ideology.

[bobGandolf]

145. Hope to hell that is not "Far Left" n/t

[Cha]

147. You're incensed about "far left" but the so-called far left calls some DUers "RW" and there's the

old "3rd Way", "Authoritarians", whatever.

And, you're "confused/and/or/incensed about "far left", Derek?

Oh that makes sense.. "..wall street coddling smuck".. Just because People support Hillary. You're just throwing out flamebait.. you don't want anything to stop.

[Scootaloo]

169. Awwww. Poor Cha.

You act like he's talking about you personally.

[Enthusiast]

148. Thank you, Derek. That is entirely accurate.

Last edited Mon Apr 20, 2015, 05:44 AM - Edit history (1)

To be considered Far Left one would have to embrace Soviet style Communism. Or at least advocate a Marxist economic system.

Single payer universal heath care and a decent retirement system hardly constitutes Far Left. All of Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand and Canada have single payer universal heath care and a decent retirement system so they should be considered mainstream centrist.

Unless we are going to measure the United States by some weird assed Fox "News" vector these things should be considered centrist and we should demand health care as a human right immediately.

It is the United States that is politically Right away from the mainstream where the primary value is the well being of corporations, the people's needs be damned.

No Democratic office holder or candidate should step in front of a TV camera that they do not say, "We must have single payer universal heath care immediately, anything less compromises the well being of the nation."

Yes, some health care profiteers would have to get a real job.

[DetlefK]

154. "Far Left" is actually straight-up Communism.

In Germany, you have to go to the right-wing fringe parties to find the same ideas as Republicans routinely emit without shame. And what counts for "Left" in the US, the Democrats, is more like the "Center" in Germany.


I blame that on a shifting of goal-posts. When public investment, public health-insurance and worker's unions get poo-pooed, your country has lost track of how far left is too far left.

[deutsey]

156. Kennedy's Cold Warrior side was beginning to thaw

Especially after the Cuban missile crisis.

He was doing a lot of behind-the-scenes talks with Khrushchev and even Castro. JFK's American U speech not long before his assassination was one of his first (or perhaps his only) public expression of his Cold War mentality thawing.

Starts at about 2:30.

[hifiguy]

294. That speech, and JFK's oft-reported intention to pull

American "advisers" out of Vietnam after the 1964 elections, sealed his fate.

[deutsey]

295. I agree.

[ensemble]

307. and prior to that...

the resolution of Laos without military intervention, and the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis without an invasion of Cuba.
Kennedy was only a cold warrior initially by circumstance.

[hifiguy]

309. Yep. When he came face to face with the logical consequences of Cold War

belligerence after taking office and realized that it could exterminate the human race he was more than smart enough to back away as quickly as he could, at least in private.

Ironically, Khrushchev was booted out by his own hard-liners who thought the Soviets had given too much away to JFK, just one year later.

Khrushchev and JFK were the only two people standing between the world and nuclear armageddon in the Missile Crisis. Fortunately both were sane and very rational men neither of whom had any desire to destroy the world.

[Pooka Fey]

158. Kick!

and Rec

[bvf]

162. This is just another version

of the tired, old "liberal media" canard, intended to pull public perception further to the right.

The ultimate goal is to paint, for example, everyone who accepts the existence of global warming as extremists of one sort or another.

Control the language--control the electorate, if the electorate in this country can even be said to exist anymore.

Call me cynical.

[RiverLover]

163. Thank you DerekG!

Another proud FDR Dem here, who appreciates you pointing out this manipulative term used by conservatives who are attempting to control the narrative.

Funny how a certain Democratic candidate is now pandering to those "far leftists" who are in actuality the majority of the country, because that is how Obama won in 2008.

...One reason we know voters will embrace populism is that they already have. It’s what they thought they were getting with Obama. In 2008 Obama said he’d bail out homeowners, not just banks. He vowed to fight for a public option, raise the minimum wage and clean up Washington. He called whistle-blowers heroes and said he’d bar lobbyists from his staff. He was critical of drones and wary of the use of force to advance American interests. He spoke eloquently of the threats posed to individual privacy by a runaway national security state.

He turned out to be something else altogether. To blame Republicans ignores a glaring truth: Obama’s record is worst where they had little or no role to play. It wasn’t Republicans who prosecuted all those whistle-blowers and hired all those lobbyists; who authorized drone strikes or kept the NSA chugging along; who reneged on the public option, the minimum wage and aid to homeowners. It wasn’t even Republicans who turned a blind eye to Wall Street corruption and excessive executive compensation. It was Obama.

A populist revolt among Democrats is unlikely absent their reappraisal of Obama, which itself seems unlikely. Not since Robert Kennedy have Democrats been so personally invested in a public figure. Liberals fell hardest so it’s especially hard for them to admit he’s just not that into them....

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/27/my_party_has_lost_its_soul_bill_clinton_barack_obama_and_the_victory_of_wall_street_democrats/

But this time around it will be different because this time, while the presumptive nominee will be attempting to sound like Obama (& Warren), we will know it is just rhetoric. So while we will get more of the same if she were to win the election, at least we will be spared the bitter disappointment of having been fooled again.

[KoKo]

301. ...!!!

[treestar]

165. theres a far right and a far left

people so extreme they are not going to get what they want in this lifetime.

The ones who call Hillary and Obama conservative and the ones who call Mittens and McCain liberal.

Also all DUers are liberal. The divide is between the practical and realistic ones and the ones demanding the impossible in today's political climate.

[stillwaiting]

174. Your second sentence is complete rubbish. So is your fourth, and your first, and your third. nt

[treestar]

235. But it appears you have no answer

to such an easy climate.

How can you possibly argue that it is false there are people at all points on the spectrum from farthest left to farthest right and at every point in the middle? You can't, so you didn't.

[stillwaiting]

249. treestar you are on record as believing that the Wall Street economy improving is pretty much

all that we need to worry about. That if that happens we all will do better.

Anybody that believes such trickle-down rubbish after the past 3 to 4 decades is not going to get much of my time. It would be a wasted effort. My response that I gave you is all that I wanted to give you.

[merrily]

218. Democrats are not the far left. (LOL, who the fuck called Mittens liberal?)

[treestar]

237. The far right.

I don't shield myself from what the right says, so I've seen it. Mitt lost because he was too liberal. Bush was too liberal. I've seen and heard that. People on the left do it too. It seems the more extreme a person is, the more certain they are that they are right and everyone must agree with them. Never can they explain why people vote the opposite of what they really want. It must happen to them because they shut themselves off from the mainstream of the other side and refuse to speak to conservatives, thus ending up in a bubble where they believe everyone thinks as they do.

People to the left of Democrats are allowed on DU. If people are constantly harping on how the Democrats aren't good enough, those people are probably really socialists who only ally with Democrats in a coalition, since the Socialist Party doesn't have enough members to affect the election. They don't get kicked off unless they openly argue voting against the Democratic party in elections.

[merrily]

244. As to Mitt: When he ran against Kennedy for the Senate

in the 1990s, Mitt tried his damnedest to seem more liberal than Kennedy.

Per Kennedy, speaking about Romney years later: "He's pro-choice, he's anti-choice, he's multiple choice."

When he ran for Governor of Massachusetts, he tried to seem moderate. Even nominated a Democrat to the bench. But, after Dimson got re-elected, Mittens took a hard right turn, full bore homophobe, etc.

[LondonReign2]

263. Obama calls his own economic policies "mainstream 1980's Republican" and

said that in many ways Nixon was more liberal than he is.

The divide is between those that say we should be happy with the continual move to the right of Democratic party and those that are saying Enough!

[Scootaloo]

167. Embrace it, is my advice

The people using it are just right-wingers who are aware that they're posting in a place where "liberal" cannot be used as a pejorative. They also like the term "purist," as an attempt to insult anyone who makes a statement of principle.

What they are telling you with both of these "insults" is that they themselves are not liberal, and that they regard corruption as a virtue. So embrace the labels. Fuck yeah I'm a leftist, fuck yeah i'm a purist. They expect you to recoil from what they think are "dirty words." Fuck 'em.

[haikugal]

204. That's a very good point..And I have always embraced it, Thanks!

[hobbit709]

173. To some people it's anyone to the left of Temujin.

[vive la commune]

178. The real far left

The real far left is actually the anticapitalist left, aka the radical left. Yes, it includes Soviet-style communism, but also other leftist views such as class-struggle anarchism and various flavors of socialism. Basically, it's just the position that capitalism (defined as the private ownership of the means of production + wage labor) cannot be reformed, and that a new system must be brought about. There is a lot of variation and disagreement (to put it mildly) on the far left on how to achieve this--some say through electoral means, some by insurrection or general strike, some support seizing state power, others say abolish the state. All are anticapitalist. Almost all put importance on the working class being the catalyst and main force to bring about this social revolution.

I don't have much to say about Third Way vs. progressivism within the Democratic party, except to say I personally hope the progressives win out. Neither the Third Way nor the progressives are far left. FDR wasn't far left. Elizabeth Warren isn't far left. I think Bernie Sanders may possibly be far left in his private sentiment (most people that describe themselves as socialist are anticapitalist), but he's not advocating a far-left platform. I much prefer the term radical left to far left, because I think it is more descriptive of the anticapitalist left and 'far left' has a somewhat pejorative tone. I consider myself radical left in my views, but I do have respect for others on the left who might not share my viewpoint.

Of course, like others have said here, for decades right-wingers have been defining anyone and everyone in the Democratic party (and probably some 'RINO's) as far left to drag the conversation to the right.

[merrily]

222. Dragging the country right. And we know that never ends well.

[Strat54]

184. Most of them have never seen anything left of a moderate.

They either have no clue what "Left" even is, or they are DLC bots looking for their "Smack a Hippie" moment.

There hasn't been a Liberal in the Whitehouse since LBJ.

Carter - An Evangelical. A moderate.

Clinton - DLC Poster Boy. Basically, a Pro-Choice, Supply Side Republican. Moderate to Conservative

Obama - 3rd Way Dem w/a few token issues for liberals. VERY business coddling. Basically, a Moderate.

THERE IS NO FAR LEFT!!!

Democrats who complain about the "Far Left" are just regurgitating the FOX News narrative. IOW... they are NOT Democtats. They are moderate Republicans who are too embarrassed by the continual Clown Parade of the GOP to call themselves Republican anymore.

YOU AIN'T EVER SEEN NO "FAR LEFT", SO STFU ABOUT IT!!!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

189. I would rec this, but...

I still want to reserve the option to use 'Wall Street-coddling schmuck'.

[polichick]

192. It really does comes down to corporate or populist Dems. (REAL populists, that is.)

[KoKo]

214. ....!

[meow2u3]

195. A-freakin'-men!

I'm with you on taxing the rich up the wazoo. It's the right, moral thing to do and should have the full force of law.

We shouldn't have aristocracy/oligarchy in this country. That's why we fought the Brits for independence, and now the psychopath Richie Riches who are too big for their britches are trying to take us back to colonial times when they ruled with an iron fist and we just had to bend over and take it.

[merrily]

198. The center right of the Democratic Party in 1940 would not even recognize Third Way as Democrats.

That's how far right lovers of Third Way have moved the Party.

[LWolf]

199. In the U.S.,

"the far left" is anyone who is to the left of the right-of-center Democrats in power.

In reality, on a global scale, there isn't much of a left at all in the U.S., let alone a "far" left.

It's a convenient label for marginalizing anyone not on board with the modern corporate political structure, though.

[merrily]

212. In the US, the far left is Communist or left anarchist, not the left of the Democratic Party.

[LWolf]

349. Yes, and

how large a presence is that?

[merrily]

351. A worthy topic for discussion, perhaps, but not relevant to my point.

Also, neither is a non-existent group with the US, but again, not really relevant to my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States

[LWolf]

353. I assume that your point is

that the left of the Democratic Party is not very left?

[merrily]

354. The left of the Democratic Party is not the "far far left" or some fringe group, as I have

seen it portrayed on DU numerous times. That is my point.

[LWolf]

355. Okay.

I would say that it sure didn't used to be. If I listened to those spinners, I'd think the left wing of the party were the Reagan Democrats. I know that I used to be a "moderate," and became the "far, far left," the "fringe," the "looney left," without ever changing any of my positions over time, at least, according to those same spinners.

It's interesting the way labels are manipulated, to be true.

[merrily]

359. No, you didn't change. The bs changed.

[LWolf]

370. That's the truth. nt

[merrily]

378. Take your false accusations about my alleged deviousness and

sit on them. I am not wasting my Sunday morning defending myself against bs, unprovoked ad homs of posts lacking in civility and courtesy. Or even reading the rest of your pointless rant.

The person who made the "actual comment" you falsely accuse me of skirting deliberately somehow managed a civil reply and we agreed. So, it would seem you are dead wrong on the substance, as well as rude.

Since it's obvious from your post that you had zero desire for discussion, I don't imagine my treating your post as not worthy of more of a substantive reply will disappoint you. If it does, too bad.

[treestar]

316. What is the modern corporate political structure?

The "left" here doesn't have opinions to the left of most of the others they call Right Wing here. They call people right wing for not agreeing on strategy or on what is possible. They grab the label "progressive" to claim others aren't, but that doesn't make it so. They are better when sneering at people for being "pragmatic" since that's their real trouble.

[LWolf]

350. "here?"

Here at DU, or here in the U.S.?

The modern corporate political structure, in which politicians serve the corporations who fund them rather than the citizens who vote for them.

[treestar]

356. that's very general

Here on DU we have people doing the same thing right wingers do. You talk to right wingers and they will claim Obama is a communist and McCain is a liberal - because they insist on judging it from their own point of view. On DU people will call other Democrats "conservative" or "right wing" merely for being a bit to the right of them, but not really that but that they are looking objectively at the whole of the country and realizing what is possible.

For instance we are all for single payer. But we are accused of being against merely because we agreed with Obama that it was not going to pass that Congress, and that Obama advertising for it "the bully pulpit" wasn't going to make it happen. So arguing for the compromise of the ACA does not mean we oppose a single payer system if it could happen, or that we don't want it.

People disagree on strategy and won't limit it to that, but start accusing others of being actually against the more liberal program.

[LWolf]

369. Which has

what to do with the corporate political structure???

[butterfly77]

201. Kicked&Recommended!

[fredamae]

225. "The Far Left" is just 3 Words

that disingenuously describes the once Majority in the Dem Party. Today, imo-we are a "silent majority" of the Dem Party...no longer the Core Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party. We Democrats Used to be pretty much on the same page...until the Early 1980's when all the greedy corporatist Dems (leadership) climbed up on the Old Reagan Economics Train and Now..."The Far Left" (or Liberal or Progressive or Populist) is used as a pejorative.
Just ask "Liberals are Eff'n Retarded" Rahm Emanual....what they (Corp Wing of the Dem Party) think about the majority (Dem Wing) of us these days
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/01/26/rahm-emanuel-liberals-are-f-king-retarded/

Awhile back, I remember reading about Schumer saying something about how the left was worse than the tea party..but I sure can't find it now. I know I called his office at the time and gave him My opinion about that....

[freebrew]

226. Left what?...

Left testicle?

Yes, it boggles the mind how some people 'think' around this country.
Or: Yes, it boggles the mind how some 'people' think around this country.

I've asked your question several times here.




CRICKETS

[Renew Deal]

229. Why do you even care about being called the far left?

Would you care if someone called you that in real life? There is a far left. If you don't feel like you fall into that category then so be it. It doesn't really matter what other people think anyway.

[RoccoR5955]

232. There is NO far-left in the US media

At least in the mainstream media.
If there was, we would be seeing opinions that state the disadvantages of capitalism, and how the capitalist corporate model here in the US, and most of the world is more like a dictatorship.
I only see this from people like Richard Wolff, who talk about cooperative businesses, where the workers also own the corporations.
If there was a far-left in the US, we would be seeing more about how these cooperative businesses are thriving, how their worker/owners are doing better than many others.
If there was a far-left in the US, we would see more about how the banks and large corporations are accomplishing a coup d'etat, world-wide with their pushing of global trade treaties.
If there was a far-left in the US, we would see stories on how capitalism is destroying the planet.

You only see this sort of thing if you read news from overseas, and then you don't see much of it either.
I listen to Mike Malloy and Democracy Now on the Internet, but nowhere else, and those are most definitely not mainstream sources.

Then again the mainstream, and the "leftists" here in the US have gone so far to the right in the past thirty or forty years, they would be considered right wing years ago.

No, there is no "far-left" here in the US.

[treestar]

311. There is, it merely isn't that popular

with enough people to get the attention. By definition it would be that way. Sure there are going to be some communists, Marxists, etc., but how are they going to get enough traction to make themselves the center? Their ideas would have to catch on.

[RoccoR5955]

347. The reason that their ideas do not catch on is not popularity

It is who owns the media outlets.

[treestar]

357. People can't think for themselves?

They have to believe what the media tells them?

That particular position is amazing in that you are saying people cannot think at all and have to think as the media tells them. Therefore those with the most money who can buy the most media can buy the election results.

Then how do you get around it? What's the proposal for getting the money to the Marxists so they can win? That's all you are left with. In essence, we simply wish the Socialists had the money so they can buy the election? And of course they will never have it. Leaves you unable to ever convince people of those ideas since we don't have the money, and left with nothing to do but rail against the rich for buying the elections.

[RoccoR5955]

361. No they cannot

People do not think for themselves. Many times they rely on what they see or hear in the media, or what friends or relatives have to say.
There is a way around it.
There was a thing called the Fairness Doctrine that was in place from the time FDR was president until the 80s, where if broadcast media was to have one view, they would have to grant time for rebuttal. There also was a limit from the FCC as to how many radio or TV stations one entity could own.
There was legislation proposed called the Media Ownership Reform Act of 2005 which was proposed my my former congressman. It could not make it through the Republican Congress at the time.
We need to bring back this sort of thing, so that there are more voices.

That is how I not only get around it, but alleviate it!

[PatrynXX]

240. well really is no such thing

But they would call for the bannishment of all religion . But of course that relies on Faux 's FAKE notion that it's open season on Christianity. The country is center Left however Democrats even on the scale of whats left and right are usually right of center. So if I'm to take that at it's words it means the majority of the country is Left wing. What the far left is? Extremely rare.. And very loud. Happens on the right but there's so many the loud voices are just background noise.. like my dad spending $37 on emergency food. then complaining to me for wasting $99 on amazon prime uh you just spent $8 on shipping ++++++++++ bonk $99 paid for itself in 2 months. had no idea I was spending that much on shipping thru half.com

[Orsino]

260. The far left is the most right.

And most dangerous to (or simply repugnant to) the status quo. Of course we have to be portrayed as fringe--because we are.

We're also right.

[harun]

265. This far leftist is not offering the same deal, just say'n.

You Wall Street-coddling shmuck's.

[BainsBane]

266. I think it's interesting that so many people consider far left an insult

and certainly I don't believe in calling anyone that who doesn't self-identify as such. I'm also glad to see that you identify leftism with Marxism (well, sort of obliquely through references to Lenin and Mao).

I myself am comfortable with the term leftist and prefer it to liberal.

I can't help notice your post hearkens back to the pre-Civil Rights act past of the Democratic party. Perhaps you're not aware of it, but most of us had very limited rights during those years.

[treestar]

312. I agree and if a person is a Marxist

why would it be painful to admit they were the farthest left you'd find in the US today?

[BainsBane]

325. It wouldn't

but then these folk aren't really very far left at all. I think that's the point the OP wants to make, and it certainly confirms with my own observations of the discussions.

I also think there is a tendency to mistake anger and attitude with ideology. They are not the same at all.

[Roy Rolling]

269. Gay?

I think people who use the term "far left" are the same who try to insult people by calling them "gay". I don't consider "gay" a negative attribute nor do I consider "far left" a bad thing.

Just remember, compared to the current crop of neocons, Ronald Reagan was far left from where they are in 2015.

[americannightmare]

272. The far left never had any power. Just ask Bill Kristol....

it's a similar meme to calling Obama a socialist...oh, how I wish he was a socialist, or one that reflects the worker's taking over the means of production, among other things. The point is that they must, in order for their other schemes (vote suppression, gerrymandering, etc) to work, wildly inflate the position of their chosen enemy. That way even Bernie Sanders will look like a radical...

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2011/10/liberal_media_myth_shreddedaga.php

[Cleita]

277. Code from the astroturfers to make anyone at FDR liberal or left of

look like they are red flag waving commies and therefore undesirable. Give me a break!

[Eleanors38]

297. BBC commentator was rumbling "far left" and "fringe candidate" butt gas when referencing...

possible Hillary challengers. Could have been a WSJ editorialist with that wasteage.

[colsohlibgal]

298. It Irritates Me As Well.

Some of the so called liberal talkers are all in on Hillary and tend to belittle, yes, the "far left". They say we pick on poor Hillary because she isn't lock step with us.

When I hear that my thought is that they are a bit out of the know and/or obstinate.

Anyway, as FDR once said, I welcome their hatred.

[RiverLover]

304. "I welcome their hatred"

I agree 100%. Thanks for posting!!

Another fitting FDR quote~

[tclambert]

300. Far leftist is like, you know, Ronald Reagan.

[Ken Burch]

308. Wasn't "The Far Left" Gary Larson's old comic panel?

[DirkGently]

318. The Overton Window is so far right in this country

that anything mildly pro-worker or pro-equality is immediately labeled -- and not only by Republicans, we should note -- as "far left."

We had a local kerfuffle recently where a moderately progressive Democratic caucus took issue with a proposed Senate candidate whose signature initiative had been all about the need for "structural changes" to Social Security and Medicare, based on the usual complete lies Wall Street keeps pushing, which D.C. insiders have accepted as gospel. A "moderate" position, he said.

Maybe we should revive the real far left. Gin up some efforts to nationalize banks, cap private corporation's salaries, that sort of thing. Give the people in both parties a stalking horse so they can understand that things like a minimum wage and the most basic banking regulations aren't akin to "Marxism" and whatnot.

[RiverLover]

343. I like that idea. A lot.

Lets bring some perspective.

[City Lights]

320. At least one poster here repeatedly uses "fringe left" to describe

someone criticizing HRC.

[Bonobo]

335. Really?

[City Lights]

352. LOL!

[barbtries]

341. i consider myself fairly far left.

but your OP made me think that it's probably just how far right so many seem to have swerved. i'm still me, a liberal democrat.

[beachbum bob]

342. typical Nader voter = far left

not too difficult to comprehend

[One of the 99]

348. FDR Liberal????

So you support segregation in the south and the detention of American citizens based on their race.

[RiverLover]

367. Oh yes, that's the part of FDR's legacy we treasure.

Such a tired meme. It's nothing to do with the New Deal, or this~

We need to remember that we are the children and grandchildren of the men and women who rescued the United States from economic destruction in the Great Depression and defended it against fascism and imperialism in World War II.

We need to remember that we are the children and grandchildren of the men and women who not only saved the nation from economic ruin and political oblivion, but also turned it into the strongest and most prosperous country on earth.

And most of all we need to remember that we are the children and grandchildren of the men and women who accomplished all of that – in the face of powerful conservative, reactionary and corporate opposition and despite their own faults and failings – by making America freer, more equal and more democratic than ever before.

Now, when all that they fought for is under siege and we too find ourselves confronting crises and forces that threaten the nation and all that it stands for, we need to remember that we are the children and grandchildren of the most progressive generation in American history. We are the children of the men and women who articulated, fought for and endowed us with the promise of the Four Freedoms....

[One of the 99]

371. But FDR is not just the New Deal

He did a lot of good but also some bad. His legacy shouldn't be whitewashed to fit a personal political agenda.

[RiverLover]

373. When we speak of FDR economic populism/progressivism, that is what we are speaking to.

There's no white washing. He was the best damn president, Democrat, this country has ever seen. His policies are what made this country great.

The Democratic Party became a liberal party largely through the "New Deal" policies of Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the Great Depression. Before FDR, "laissez-faire" or "free-market" policies were the only policies acceptable to America's ruling elites.

FDR's New Deal policies used government spending power to create jobs for the masses of unemployed, and used payroll taxes to provide retirement security through Social Security. FDR also created regulatory agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) to avoid another financial crisis.

FDR's liberal policies were supported by Democratic and Republican administrations until Ronald Reagan began a conservative counterattack against FDR's policies in 1981.After 8 years of Reaganism, conservative Democrats began embracing the Reaganite assault on liberalism, and called themselves "New Democrats" to distinguish themselves from traditional FDR-inspired liberals. These "New Democrats" drew support from large corporations that wanted a return to "laissez-faire" policies to get out from under regulations.

http://www.democrats.com/new-democrats

Here's a very informative article for you~
http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/10/we-need-to-remember-the-fight-for-the-four-freedoms/

And another~
http://www.thenation.com/article/fdrs-democratic-propaganda

[One of the 99]

374. That's only part of FDR's legacy

You have to take the good with the bad.

[Matrosov]

377. LOL @ "centrists"

Conservatism is a cancer, and calling oneself a centrist is sort of like trying to argue that cancer is alright some of the time.

Then again, some of the centrists are little more than conservatives that are trying to blend in with progressives and influence our dialogue. Divide and conquer is an ancient strategy, hence they like to dismiss the more vocal progressives as "the far left."

[Zorra]

379. Kick for the "Far Left".