Bernie Sanders: This is simply beyond belief...

[Playinghardball]

[gordianot]

1. The trusting person I tend to be I believe it.

The beyond belief stage passed several decades ago.

[djean111]

2. I wish it was beyond belief. nt

[polichick]

6. Me too!

[rhett o rick]

3. It's time to draw the line and fight. Support the Populist Movement.

Support progressive Democratic candidates via organizations outside the Party or directly.

[whatchamacallit]

8. Good news

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6516268

[rhett o rick]

14. I think I saw the campaign bus. It said on the side in big letters

"Clinton Populism brought to you by Goldman-Sachs"

[whatchamacallit]

25. ;)

[busterbrown]

30. Real Bright Idea...

Nominate Bernie...Republican Corporatists, controlling billions of dollars ready for 2016.. would be overwhelmed with Joy with a Sanders Victory..As soon as Sander’s won the nomination he would be quickly pegged as a Karl Marx type Communist who would be intent on bring the evils of Marxism to Washington.....And the majority of low informed voters in this country would suck the lies and evil right the hell up... Jesus! Doesn’t the Ralph Nader fiasco scare the shit out of you? But this would be worse.. all three branches would be controlled by white TBaggers....

And I am nuts about Bernie, not crazy about Hillary..but its pragmatically the best we can do..

And please don’t tell me how weak I am. Or how I don’t hold to my convictions.. So boring..

[JDPriestly]

40. It's the primaries. I'm supporting the best candidate who appears to be ready to run, and that's

Bernie.

By the way, watch Bernie's appearance on Bill O'Reilly's show. Bernie is one of the few Democrats who can talk to O'Reilly and get Bernie's not O'Reilly's message across. Bernie shows mastery in the way he dealt with the interview.

I wonder whether Clinton will appear on O'Reilly's show. I suspect she would become very rattled and show her frustration. That's why I'm betting on Bernie. Bernie is no Communist. You and I know that. In fact, his '"socialism" is more like FDR democracy. I think Bernie could win if nominated. And I am going to try to help him get the nomination or get a fair shake in the general election if he runs as an independent who caucuses with Democrats.

His voting record is stellar.

[busterbrown]

44. Agree with you on everything u stated..

I would love Bernie to be Pres.. But this current plaque of ignorance in this Country scares the shit out of me..And in my opinion Hillary is 1000 times better than the alternative.

She needs all that Wall Street Money to compete.. She’s dead in the water if she doesn’t get it..
Besides I ‘m sensing a change in her politics.. Hopefully

[hippywife]

88. I'd much prefer...

to read a transcript if one exists, because in order to see Bernie do this, I'd also have to watch and listen to O'Reilly. This is something I avoid as I tend to not have the stomach for that man's antics and BS.

[7962]

42. He was even getting along with O'Reilly last night. He's a great interview.

Look it up, it was pretty interesting. Bill only had him on to be critical of Clinton, I imagine, but he covered other issues as well

[rhett o rick]

63. The "pragmatism" excuse is what got us where we are today.

But pragmatism shouldn't be used as an excuse to let our freedoms and liberties drain away. We are sinking deeper and deeper into tyranny every year and eventually we will all be paupers and can look back and say, "Well, at least we were pragmatic."

I say frack pragmatism, it's time to kick some Oligarchy ass.

I am glad our founders weren't pragmatic.

[busterbrown]

68. So whats your game plan..

Are you prepared to arm yourself and carry the fight into the streets as our founders did?

It’s so easy to say, but u know its a fantasy..

Our only chance to prevent the Trepublicans from controlling all 3 branches of Govt..is to hope HRC can pull it off.. And we all know its about the money..

Those who supported Nader certainly thought they we’re doing the right thing..but shit, looked what happened...

By the way Bernie Sanders is a great man, whom I would definitely support as our nominee.....but these are scary times... You think we would be in the position we are in today if Gore was Pres?

[rhett o rick]

70. The truth is I don't think the 99% has a chance. At best H.Clinton might slow down the slide into

tyranny. If Bernie is the Democratic nominee, I am hoping he will wake up those lulled into complacency by the corp-Dems and Republicons. But I recognize that the Oligarchy has unlimited resources and are willing to imprison millions (as they are with the black community) and brutalize protestors. I don't support violence but we need to stand and fight them where it hurts, their profits.

[Scuba]

71. No blood in the streets, just votes for progressive candidates. Rolling over and playing dead ...

... 'cause the big bad Republicans might do something mean is a sure-fire path to losing the remainder of our Democracy and ceding the entire economy to the wealthiest.

[busterbrown]

74. “Mean” what a choice of words..

Like nothing really to fear here.. These people are fucking insane..And we’ve have got to give it our best shot to find someone to at least slow em down a bit...Warren isn’t running, Sanders is a man I admire but he’s old and would be labeled a Marxist out of the Gate..We don’t have a plethora of choices here..

[Scuba]

75. If they're so insane, why vote for one of them pretending to be a liberal Democrat?

[busterbrown]

78. HRC gives me a little Hope..

“IF” why would you use that word.. At least we could put a temporary hold on these idiots for 4 yrs with Clinton and begin the process of developing a new set of warriors..

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

101. Is it a hope meme or a real meme?

I don't want a false hope with another corporatist.

[DrKZ]

81. I don't know I don't have a hot tub time machine or a crystal ball

I did not vote for Nadar but I am tired of that old worn out axiom ... Do you know how many names were scrubbed from lists in North Florida in 2000? That was a huge issue far more of an issue than Nadar ... Yes, there were butterfly ballots and then there were the voting machines in Volusia that counted backwards ... I can continue. It is easy to blame people who vote the conscience which is their right to do ... it is much more difficult to look at the cold hard reality of what transpired and how about Katherine Harris Jeb and the SCOTUS?

These are frightening times and they are frightening times in terms of several significant issues the environment (and Clinton is for fracking and has been quiet on the Keystone pipeline). war and she is a neo-con I can go back to her Iraq war vote but I can also cite what happened in Honduras when her state department ovethrew a democratically elected government and what she said about children running for their lives ...

And then there is the "free trade" (Orwellian language) hoax and you must see through her populist language which is a faint faint attempt to sound like Elizabeth Warren. She is not just a neo-con but a neo-liberal (her corporate support demonstrates that)

So we do have a choice and I am tired of stupid phrases like don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good and look at 2000 and blah blah blah because this began with Ronnie Raygun and the privatization that took place the demonization of workers of teachers of schools etc was never stopped by Clinton or his foundation and her positions are just as conservative ... why do you think DeBlasio has not yet endorsed her?

[arcane1]

79. They'll say that no matter who we nominate. They said the same things about Obama.

Plus, you assume that Dems won't have any victories in congress. Isn't it possible to take congress back?

[A Simple Game]

96. Nader fiasco? What Nader fiasco are you talking about?

You don't mean the time that Jeb Bush and the Supreme Court stole the election in Florida and then started the meme that it was Nader's fault to divert attention from the real reason? You didn't fall for that, did you? Was it Nader's fault that Gore lost his home state?

So do you assign equal blame for the other 7 candidates that each got more votes than the difference between Bush and Gore? Didn't even know that fact did you? I bet you knew about Jeb and the Supreme Court though and still blame Nader. Why repeat it, it just makes you a pawn in the Republican's game. You have to know what the problem is before you can fix it.

[hifiguy]

83. Blammo!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

100. Whydoyouhatehillaryclintonsomuch?don'tyouknowitisjustyouhavingsourgrapes!!!!!

Or some knob head told be or the such.

[rhett o rick]

102. ShebetrayedtheDemocraticPartyanddoes'tdeserveasecondchance.com.

[delrem]

20. wow! I've never seen such blatant, open cynicism, as in that post!

And worse, the whole crew is proud to back it up.
The contempt for the voter being shown in that post is amazing.

[whatchamacallit]

23. Guess it's what passes for democracy these days

[bvar22]

27. That post was NOT about contmpt for the voter.

It is about Hillary's Team noticing how much America tuned in to Warren's legitimate populist message, and then trying to steal it.
This was designed to fool the "Rubes".
Obama did the same "Populist" scam while running, but he had no track record.
Hillary does have a track record.

The Populist Rhetoric falling from Hillary's lips sounds empty and insincere.
We ALL already know WHO she is, and WHOM she works for.

[delrem]

37. I get your point. But I read cynicism and contempt of a total nature. nt

[bvar22]

49. I am one of the members here who does NOT have contempt for the voters.

Plenty here subscribe to the myth that Nader caused Gore to lose because they are stupid voters.

Winning elections and motivating the voters is always the JOB of LEADERSHIP.
When a voter votes for someone else...that is a Failure of Leadership,
not the voters.


I DO have contempt for the 3rd Way, Centrists, DLC, Republican Lites that have infiltrated our Party, and that contempt has earned since Bill Clinton abandoned traditional Democratic Party Principles and ushered in Republican Lite.
I have nothing but respect for traditional populist Democrats.

I am also cynical about the frauds, scams, and Kabuki Theater played by our politicians.
That cynicism has been earned by being an active Democrat for over 47 years,
and watching the scams play out over the last 30 years.
Anyone who watches closely (and I mean watching C-Span at 2AM) for a few years,
and is NOT a cynic....is not watching closely enough.


[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[delrem]

67. Yes, that's understood!

I was responding to the cynicism and contempt expressed by this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6516268

" If she can pull off the populist meme, she'll go a long way toward enlisting the support of ordinary Americans.
I think it's a good move on her part. ..."

I'm using the term in this way:

"cynical
adjective
2.
showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, especially by actions that exploit the scruples of others."

I'm Canadian and I recall that in the '08 election it was said that Obama told the Canadian PM to pay no heed to his talk about renegotiating the FTA because it was just campaign rhetoric. Like many who read and post to DU I said "no way Obama said that!", because it'd be just too *cynical* of him if he did. Unfortunately, it turned out to be true. In this case "If she (HRC) can pull off the populist meme..." aren't HRC's words, they're the words of a DU HRC supporter, and IMO they express open cynicism.

Just my opinion, mind you, but I see nothing to contradict it.

eta: when I see increasing *cynicism* in politics, I'm increasingly *sceptical* of the politicians who express it. That doesn't make me a cynic, it means I have a fairly natural reaction when confronted by cynics.

eta2: Also, I take it as a given that third-way is *not* populist or progressive, and in fact is the contrary of it. I take it as a given that when the $2billion in IOUs are called in, it won't be to demand progressive policy.

[bvar22]

69. Thank You for the well written and thoughtful response.

!

Can you document the White House aid going to Canada to tell the PM that Obama was only saying that to get votes?

That has been sticking in my craw for over 6 years.
I heard the story back then, but could only find one source, and it is a source that I don't use on DU. I was dismayed that the other Media outlets here didn't cover this story, as far as I was aware. Since I only had one source, I began to doubt that it happened.

If you could provide a Canadian source, I will be in your debt.

[delrem]

80. I'll try to find one.

By the way, thanks for your post re. Blanche Lincoln
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026524044#post16
"THIS is what happen when the people try to replace Congress:
The Arkansas Democratic Primary of 2010 was a heart breaking eye opener for the Grass Roots and Organized LABOR. We were given a Look Behind the Curtain,
and it wasn't very pretty. ..."

You are VERY good at this. Keep it up.

[A Simple Game]

97. My vote for post of the day, maybe of the week. What the Nader blamers don't understand

is how foolish they look when they assign more blame to the few that voted for Nader than the millions that voted for Bush. Not to mention where the true blame lies.

[JDPriestly]

38. Thanks. Says it all.

Behind those law and Wall Street firm names are the interests of a lot of multinational corporations. It's all opaque. You don't really know what you are getting when you see those names. But you do not it isn't good for ordinary Americans.

[BeanMusical]

43. Absolutely.

I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to see right trough this thin facade.

[onethatcares]

48. sweet Jesus that's a lot of money

it's no wonder we working stiffs are being swept under the rug and fighting for crumbs.

Our country is totally fucked.

[Dragonfli]

61. I'm disapointed , I mean it's a little scary, what would Goldman think?

I like most here I assume was hoping for more of this



and a great deal of this



I hope she hasn't changed completely, everybody loves Goldman and war, this is simply unacceptable!

[donnasgirl]

12. I personally have chosen

Directly, and I have made up my mind and will be backing Bernie Sanders unless he choses otherwise.

[rhett o rick]

15. I agree. nm

[merrily]

32. Sing it!

[DanTex]

52. Hillary opposes cutting the inheritance tax.

And this bill has no chance to become law because Obama opposes it also.

So maybe it's time to support the Democratic party rather than find excuses to pretend they are the same as the Republicans.

[rhett o rick]

62. Huh? What does Clinton have to do with my post? I am not sure what you mean by "support the

Democratic Party." Do you mean blindly support all Democrats equally? I support Democrats that uphold Democratic principles. I do not blindly support anyone. And will you guys plez stop the old worn out Strawman that some people in DU think that the two parties are the same. I doubt that anyone here has ever said that. But it seems to be a "go to" when disparaging the Left.

[DanTex]

85. Just saying that you should be thrilled that the leading candidate supports this progressive

position along with many others. Rather than being "ready for someone else".

[rhett o rick]

87. The leading candidate helped Bush and the Republicons lie to the American people and one of

the consequences was the brutal deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. You may be able to look the other way but I won't. She lost her chance to be "progressive" when she sold out to the Bush Crime Family.

[DanTex]

89. This thread is about the inheritance tax. But the Iraq War is another illustration of

why Republicans in the White House are disastrous.

[rhett o rick]

91. Yes Republicons in the WH are disasterous especially when they get help from Democrats

that are supposed to keep them in check. Sorry, but I didn't see your link to the H. Clinton quote re. the inheritance tax. It's not that I doubt you, but like to have it for future reference.

[appalachiablue]

66. Support the Populist Movement and the POPULIST MEDIA. This is going on 25 years of

corporate media consolidation allowed by Clinton's Telecom Act of 1996, like the financial deregulation of Banks in the late 90s which are now consolidated. Before that, Reagan dismissing the Fairness Doctrine and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. These are RW Media monopolies with Hate Radio and Fox blasting throughout the country. Even NPR and PBS have come under the influence of corporate $.

No amount of liberal/left scorn, distain or indifference changes the fact that this broadcasting has altered the country for the worse, and nothing will change w/o opposing it. And no, the Internet God is not immune, it will be cut into and packaged for profit. Besides, not everyone inhabits the internet for their life and for the news or wants too.
The patchwork scene of irregular, few and sparse left radio programming isn't the answer, and FSTV is excellent but not available broadly. And the TV police who attack if you're found out- Cut it! think that ridding TVs and radios so people will love the internet, is going to end RW Hate propaganda?

The Left must find funds to provide an accessible, independent media in several formats or forget democracy. All the keyboard activism, blogs, and well done progressive news outlets on the net cannot compare to the 24/7, corporate media landscape. And for people who don't pour over DU, truthout, alternet, raw story, Daily Kos, etc, after their 60 hr. work week, errands, laundry and life,

~They'll (L elites) be singing on the mountain, but you won't be there to hear them~, as my father said.

(*Sorry for the rant, nothing personal. Just that MEDIA is left out of Dem. thinking which is heavy with critics & writers. Alternative Media is also essential, and half the battle of educating people about what's going on and Populism .

[rhett o rick]

73. Don't you dare apologize for ranting. This is an important statement.

We must counter the Oligarchy owned media.

[DrKZ]

76. You are so correct

You are so correct.

[hifiguy]

84. I second every one of your well-chosen words,

[appalachiablue]

105. This is the Berlin Wall, even with the enormous efforts of Bernie & others on M$M, Dems. are

handicapped by the monstrosity of RW corporate media. And nobody wants to talk about it or try to counter it. Many conservatives and populists would go APE, if they knew the reality of many anti-democratic and anti-human issues at stake. Is this 'media matter' insurmountable? or the ultimate 'Human Challenge'? H*ll no!

Hannibal crossed the Alps centuries ago, the Allies invaded Normandy to liberate France, and we sent a man to the moon for Christ's sake!

[woo me with science]

104. Hear, hear.

[appalachiablue]

106. Thanks Woo. We have a huge, (& manufactured) problem with this 'media issue'...See #105.

[GoneFishin]

4. No doubt the Republicans anticipate that a sizable chuck of that cash will come back to them

one way or another.

[polichick]

5. Sad that it is no longer "beyond belief" to most Americans - but expected.

[GeorgeGist]

7. The more power they have ...

the more childish they become.

[Dont call me Shirley]

18. So utterly true, GeorgeGist

[merrily]

33. I believe that's spelled ghoulish

[Comrade Grumpy]

9. I think this message could resonate.

[Cyrano]

10. This will be vetoed by Obama and

there aren't enough Democratic pricks in the Senate to override his veto. (And if ever if there were, they wouldn't out themselves on such a visible issue.)

Nonetheless, the Republicans have once again shown what they are and what they believe in.

[OldHippieChick]

31. If we're lucky this won't

make it out of the Senate. The Dems can filibuster as there are not 60 votes to stop it.

[sabrina 1]

11. This is why the Senate and Congressional races are so important. It is imperative to replace as many

of these Corporate thieves with good, Progressive, not Third Way who are on the same page as these thieves, Democrats.

With a Congress and Senate filled with Reps of the Working Class nothing like this could happen.

With all the focus on the WH races, I am worried that people won't be working as hard as they should on where the people actually still have some power.

[merrily]

34. +1

If they block this, it should be THE campaign issue of 2016 for the House and Senate.

[mountain grammy]

13. Run, Bernie, run..

it's the only way the mainstream goons we call the media will cover this.

Run Bernie. Do it for 13 million people getting shafted.. There was a time the earned income credit was a huge thing for me and my kids. The only tax credit for the working poor.

[JDPriestly]

36. I've volunteered for him. I hope others will too.

[mountain grammy]

47. I want him in the primary..

if the totally unexpected happens and he's our nominee, I'm putting a banner on my camper and hitting the road next summer and fall. I think he would be an excellent president.

[Dont call me Shirley]

16. Tar and Feathers needed.

[robbob]

17. No Bernie, what is beyond belief

Is that stupid, stupid Americans keep voting these people in.

[donnasgirl]

21. Bernie is saying the same

Thing only much nicer because of the Gentleman he is.

[Chipper Chat]

19. Hey, who cares? The Kardashians are on.

Honey, can you bring me a bag of chips to go with my cheap beer? Who'd you say won American Idol? Oh crap! I cant find the right channel. Gotta get rid of these "news channels." Cable needs to delete them and add more shows like Duck Dynasty? What's that honey? We wont be able to pay the rent next month? Well, it's those damn democrats. Nothing but tax us to the hilt and spend spend spend and woohoo for the gays. And what's Obama done for us? Whatz that - just turn it to Fox News? OK, honey.

[Initech]

22. People will care when they can no longer afford DirectTV and 4G.

I'm at the point now where I'm having to pick between the two. Having a phone is more important than satellite television. Netflix is so much better than broadcast anyways.

[Dragonfli]

64. I don't even own, or can afford a TV, but can afford to share WiFi with a neighbor friend

I also own an old, but still well functioning DLP projector that combined with my laptop and a pull-down 72" projector screen gets me all the TV I could ever want, Netflix, couchtuner, Hulu and progressive news online has me covered far better than the overpriced dish and cable rackets (minus all the propaganda I might add)

[7962]

45. And there you have it. The biggest problem with todays voters.

The Pres talked about wishing voting was mandatory; I think the opposite. I dont want ANYONE voting who cant even name one of their Senators.

[Scootaloo]

57. The biggest problem with today's voters is twofold

1) The lack of quality candidates. You have rich guy #1 who only considers policy for the rich, and you have rich guy #2 who only considers policy for the rich.

2) The influence of wealth on the system makes it a nearly impossible bar to clear for anyone who doesn't have an independent 6-digit income. You can have all the ideas you want, but unless you have millions of dollars to throw out there, they're worthless; and banks won't give loans to run political campaigns.

So. if you get the same 1%-serving policy, and the game is rigged so those are the only interests that are actually interacted with, why not stay home to watch the kardashians?

of course there's activism, but American activism ,sadly, rarely gets things done. and activism that does get things done is usually eagerly attacked by both the "right" and "left" - go back to read DU during occyupy or the Ferguson protests, there's so much hate for peope daring to stand up for their own interests.

[blackspade]

24. Fucked by the GOP again.....

Did any Democrats vote for this pile of crap?

[RufusTFirefly]

29. Seven House Democrats voted for the bill

Ashford (Neb.)
Bishop (Ga.)
Costa (Calif.)
Cuellar (Texas)
Peterson (Minn.)
Ruppersburger (Md.)
Sinema (Ariz.)

Mind-boggling.
But hey, they're Democrats. So we can't say anything bad about them, right?

[blackspade]

50. They're not DINOs....just misunderstood...

[truebrit71]

86. Kirsten Sinema..... typical....

Fucking republican....

[Laelth]

94. I was very disappointed by the vote of my own Rep., Sanford Bishop. n/t

-Laelth

[AuntPatsy]

26. Just yesterday

http://fortune.com/2015/04/16/house-republicans-estate-tax/

When even fortune magazine begins shaking their heads all Americans will feel the effects

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. The downtrodden, suffering, rich, need a tax break.

Or, they'll turn off the spigot of the trickle down treasures aimed at the poor.

[JDPriestly]

35. Thanks, Bernie Sanders. So true.

Let's get this out to the Republican voters.

[pansypoo53219]

39. WELFARE for the rich.

welfare welfare welfare welfare. NO DUES TO UNCLE SAM CAUSE THEY ARE NOT PATRIOTIC.

[liberal_at_heart]

41. keep speaking the truth Bernie. The people need to know exactly why their

tax bills will be higher.

[Stonepounder]

46. Question.

What are the chances that the Senate will also vote to eliminate the estate tax?
If the Senate passes this as well, what are the chances that Obama will sign it?

Please, this is not snark. Is this just the Rethugs in the House playing to their base, knowing that this bill doesn't have a chance, or is does this nonsense actually have a chance of becoming law?

Thanks.

[StarzGuy]

51. I like Bernie Sanders but he has said that he would only run if...

...he could be assured he would have the financial wherewithal to run and win. I don't see him getting the necessary financial backing to mount a legit campaign. He's certainly not going get money from the Wall Street barons. I doubt that there are enough $5 contributions out there either. Just my 2 cents worth and I will be happy to vote for him if he runs...

[appalachiablue]

53. K & R. He's the best and hardest working man in Washington, by far.

[orpupilofnature57]

54. Where is MSM ? Where is Hillary ?

[LiberalLovinLug]

55. The perfect scrolling ad for the Democrats in the next election

...so you just know it will be the last thing they do.

[Rex]

56. But but but...let's give those assholes that destroyed the economy in 2008

tax credits! That way they will know we are still totally clueless about how much they steal from the Treasury!

[bigwillq]

58. K and R

[Enthusiast]

59. Where are the other Democratic candidates on this issue? Have they spoken up?

[PBass]

60. This is purely a symbolic vote by the House.

Just like their votes to overturn Obamacare, and to restrict or ban women's reproductive rights. It will not pass the Senate, but even if it does (it won't), it would be vetoed by President Obama.

[Cha]

65. But there's "no difference between Dems and gop." So sayeth lazy

broad-brushing internet "warriors".

[freshwest]

90. I see you've been reading DU again... n/t

[Cha]

92. Yes I have..

[spanone]

72. republicans. they give not one shit about the voters.

[redruddyred]

77. sanders' rhetorical style is v similar to chomsky's

I just noticed this.

[wolfie001]

82. Think of all the jobs the wealthy won't create!

Rather, they'll stick their extra benjamins in the Cayman's never to return. This happened back in 2003, didn't help the economy at all. It helped Mitt Romney though.....

[AzDar]

93. Bernie!!

[Enthusiast]

95. This thread has hundreds of recommendations!

[MADem]

98. Look who runs the House--it's not beyond belief at all. That's their greedy agenda. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

99. Run, Bernie, Run.

Please.

[moondust]

103. Are GOP voters paying attention?

Almost none of them are in that 0.2% and no doubt many of the bubbas could use a raise rather than higher taxes.

Perhaps this is what the heavy police militarization and thuggery are all about: the oligarchs know that people will eventually revolt.