"Libertarian" Rand Paul "cleverly" accuses pro-choice advocates of infanticide

[DemocratSinceBirth]

During a campaign stop in Milford, N.H., Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., responded to a question about a testy exchange he had with an AP reporter about abortion policy. Paul’s retort: “You go back and go ask (DNC head) Debbie Wasserman Schultz if she’s OK with killing a 7-pound baby that's just not born yet.” Paul added, “Ask her when life begins, and ask Debbie when she’s willing to protect life. When you get an answer from Debbie, come back to me.” Wasserman Schultz shot back responding, “I support letting women and their doctors make this decision without government getting involved. Period. End of story.”

[ZombieHorde]

1. I like Wasserman Schultz's answer.

Rand Paul is no Libertarian. He's a Republican with one or two variations from the party norm.

[immoderate]

3. Yeah. Debbie gave the classic Libertarian position.

Happens to coincide with the liberal position.

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. My best friend was a libertarian....

My best friend was a libertarian. I tried to disabuse him of his libertarianism all through graduate school though he was book smarter than me and resistant to my efforts. Rand Paul is no libertarian.

[immoderate]

6. I was a libertarian myself. It makes sense ...

... sort of ... if you don't think too much. The things they had no answers for, civil rights, women's rights, the military industrial complex, the Vietnam war -- don't respond well to "free market" forces.

And then Marx made a lot of sense.

Is your friend still libertarian? (BTW, I still see my political genesis in what I naively thought were libertarian principles. Like my agreement with Debbie.)

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Don't know...That was several lives ago...

The guy used to read Wittgenstein for fun.


He was pragmatic when it came to voting though...When our fellow UCF alum, Dick Batchelor (D) ran against Bill McCollum (R) he contributed to his campaign...Batchelor who I knew lost...That's a Republican seat...It's been altered a bit but Dan Mica (R) represents it now.

[immoderate]

11. Interesting. (Or not!) Wittgenstein is often cited by my Libertarian friends.

It's a case of bias confirmation, combined with appeal to authority. They quote Hume a lot too. And Popper.

It's a rhetorical deflection. It's in the nature of philosophy to make a big deal out of bullshit. And then you have nothing that's applicable to real world problems.

Libertarians are ideologues, and can't venture far from the hypothetical.

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Small correction...John Mica holds the seat I alluded to.

Wittgenstein was too dense for me...

In grad school I was reading a lot of Lester Thurow who was very much in vogue in the 80s, Michael Harrington, John Kenneth Galbraith, and Robert Heilbroner...Of course I read the classics like The Leviathan, The Social Contract, Plato's Republic, On Liberty, The Communist Manifesto, the Federalist Papers, and stuff like that as part of the core curriculum.


I am much further left ideologically than I am operationally because I don't believe there's a plurality or majority of voters who are ready to embrace what appeals to me ideologically; the distance between is versus ought to be.

[immoderate]

17. I think I parallel that.

I usually identify myself (when forced) as a social democrat. But ideologically I'm a pragmatic hippie.

I belong to a meet-up that meets weekly for dinner, and nominally discusses the implementation of direct democracy. What you cite are among the problems we discuss. Also education, participation, mediums of exchange, avoiding revolution, if that's possible, whether we're being watched, etc.

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I got crucified by another poster for scoffing at the notion of a "revolution"

First of all it's illegal to advocate the violent overthrow of the government, second of all, the logistics of such an undertaking is mind boggling and a lot of our own would be collateral damage, and third of all there is no guarantee in the anarchic situation that would surely follow that really bad people wouldn't take advantage of the situation.


And I rather leave these revolutionary fantasies to the right...

[immoderate]

22. Sure. We keep that in mind.

But a true democracy would involve a radical change in governance. And how to bring that about without causing a revolution is on the menu. People are aware of chaos theory, incompleteness theorems, unanticipated results, etc.

We are only meeting for dinner, not planning an insurrection.

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I didn't suggest you were...

I just think it's preposterous to suggest it in a nation as complex and diverse as ours...

And there's the sad reality that in a truly anarchic society the first think folks will forget is their humanity and the first thing they will remember is what tribe they belong to.

[immoderate]

29. Yep. that's all over dinner. We also talk about rock n' roll.

As it is, it's frequently how to institute more democratic systems. But preposterous is welcome. Ever brainstorm?

--imm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. No...Your group isn't preposterous... The notion of violent insurrection is...

Reminds me of when Dr. King disabused Malcolm X of the notion that violent insurrection is feasible and how badly it would end for those fomenting it.

[immoderate]

32. Yep. That's the trick. Avoid unintended consequences.

--imm

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Too bad that when it comes to cancer patients smoking pot, Debbie is happy

to "get the government involved", all the way up to dragging them off to prison in their wheelchairs for smoking a joint.

Damn, I wish we had better spokespeople. She sucks.

[immoderate]

13. Debbie and I rarely agree. It took Rand Paul to make her look good.

--imm

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Only Atlas-shat McRughead could possibly try to spin policing womens' pregnancies

as "smaller government".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I don't see how any sane person can oppose medical marijuana...

It's a antediluvian position, imho.


I am a bit more flexible when it comes to legalization for recreational use but you have to be cold hearted to burden someone with a criminal record for smoking a joint...

I am in CA and they , imho, struck a nice balance by decriminalizing the possession of marijuana and treating it as a civil infraction; no court appearance, no jail time, and no criminal record, just a fine up to $100.00. It demonstrates society's disapproval while not ruining people lives for what at its worst is a petty violation of the law.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Legalization is coming, IMHO.

By any rational, objective standard alcohol is a far more dangerous drug. I've been firmly of the opinion that pot should be legal, regulated, and taxed, available as a consenting adult choice. It took a while, but the country is catching up to me, like it has on LGBT marriage equality.

"Society's disapproval" doesn't make a ton of sense when a good chunk of society doesn't, actually, disapprove.

That's where we're at, up here (finally) and I suspect that is where you guys are headed, too.

Either way, DWS misjudged that issue, and I know for a fact it has hurt her with a large portion of the party.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Weed is ubiquitous in CA

The whiff of it is "everywhere". That was one of the largest culture shocks when i moved here three years ago from FL...


I don't get DWS... She runs virtually unopposed in her district and has the leeway to do whatever she wants. She wants to run for statewide office and I assume she wants to get closer to what FL voters want but FL voters are split on the issue...

And more importantly I don't believe she can beat Marco Rubio... I don't believe an incumbent FL senator has lost in recent history.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. ... You don't say?

I know, I've lived in Marin and Sonoma, among other places.

I was a stone's throw away from the Grateful Dead's main office, back in the day.

I barely even smoke it anymore, maybe once in a blue moon... although I readily admit I smoked the crap out of it, in my youth. In the pantheon of drugs, it's far and away one of the more benign substances.

Someone who drinks a fifth of scotch every day and tries to quit cold turkey, is likely going to require hospitalization. When a daily pothead quits, they may get cranky, but it's not going to be a medically life-threatening issue.

On DWS, I think she shot herself in the foot, bigtime. Unfortunately in our party too many people are listening to beltway "conventional wisdom" that is already 10 years outdated. Like, DWS probably thought she was appealing to "security/soccer moms" and "tough on crime" or "values" voters by being anti-mmj.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I haven't gotten high since 1993.

But there was a stretch in high school where I literally went a full year, getting high every day.

[fredamae]

2. I could say the same

about the GOP for refusing to provide and cutting current funding to ensure proper diet and health care for pregnant mothers.

[Thinkingabout]

4. I agree with you, the republicans wants forced births and then dont give a damn

If the babies thrive after birth. This is the disgusting part.

[HereSince1628]

8. I'm not surprised, but infant is usually a reference to post-partem non-verbal humans

Still, the push to make definitions of the unborn persons will continue until a more generally accepted rational becomes widespread.

I've thought about this topic for decades and I don't really understand why defense of self and family shouldn't be better accepted as a rational for abortion. It is accepted outside the US

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Hence my observation he is "clever".

"...if she’s OK with killing a 7-pound baby that's just not born yet.”

[HereSince1628]

12. What seems UNclever to me, is refusal to respond with "So WHAT? It's a matter of self &

family defense".

It's an argument that seems to be successfully used to support abortion through much of the rest of the world.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. That would alienate him from Republican primary voters he seeks votes from.

[HereSince1628]

30. Um, no. I meant Pro-choice people respond with SO WHAT?

I'm sorry about somehow leaving that unclear.

[alphafemale]

19. An implication that choosing to abort a viable fetus is something that is legal anywhere in the US

Just because you "changed your mind."

On the contrary, this drastic measure would only be under great grief and distress because of dire circumstances.

In fact, in many cases women are forced to carry a fetus that has died until they go into labor naturally. This can be at risk of severe infection, not to mention the emotional trauma of such a forced physical pain.

[PeaceNikki]

27. yeah, the implication that women are monsters who would

terminate a full or near full term pregnancy because they wanted to go to Cabo with the ladies and must be stopped is incredibly offensive.

Fuck that guy.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

26. Rand is rude to women reporters, always interrupts them. He is a typical rightwing

misogynist pig

[Hekate]

28. He is incredibly nasty to female reporters. When challenged about it by a male reporter....

....he got all whiny and defensive, with all kinds of excuses about how it's the reporter's fault, the circumstances being not face to face, yadda yadda yadda.

Bottom line: Rand is very rude to women, very dismissive. I hope this bites him in the ass, real soon and real hard.