General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn Monday a woman in Indiana got a 20 year sentence--for a miscarriage in stressful circumstances.
Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 02:18 PM - Edit history (1)
(UPDATE: There is a previous GD thread about this case, with important information to help Ms. Patel in her time of need. Link here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6442782)http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/indiana-has-now-charged-two-asian-american-women-feticide-n332761
I had a friend who faced somewhat similar circumstances--who seriously considered aborting, ultimately chose to have the child, and suffered a miscarriage shortly thereafter. The thought that current feticide laws might have sent her to jail is horrifying. This is a hideous assault on women's bodily autonomy, and a criminalization of complicated medical situations that we don't have any control over.
What you need to know:
According to Sue Ellen Braunlin, doctor and co-president of the Indiana Religious Coalition for Reproductive Justice, Purvi was most likely 23-24 weeks pregnant, although prosecutors argued Patel was 25 weeks along in the state's opening argument. The prosecution confirmed on Monday that the baby died within seconds of being born.
Patel's lawyers argued that she panicked when she realized she was in labor. Patel comes from a conservative Hindu family that looks down on sex outside marriage, and the pregnancy was a result of an affair Patel had with her co-worker.
"Purvi Patel's conviction amounts to punishment for having a miscarriage and then seeking medical care, something that no woman should worry would lead to jail time," said Deepa Iyer, Activist-in-Residence at the University of Maryland's Asian American Studies Program and former director of South Asian Americans Leading Together.
Despite Patel's claim that she gave birth to a stillborn child, prosecutors argued that Patel gave birth to a live fetus and charged her with child neglect. Prosecutors also claimed that Patel ordered abortion-inducing drugs online and tried to terminate her pregnancy, but a toxicology report failed to find evidence of any drugs in her system.
niyad
(113,581 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)You felt distressed and conflicted about something going on in your body? Your body quite likely responded to that stress in a very typical way? Too bad...twenty years in the slammer.
Another woman was charged for feticide following a suicide attempt. Many have been jailed for addictions that were deemed to have contributed to a miscarriage or stillbirth.
Where does it end? What about women who smoke, or don't have perfect diets, or don't sleep enough, or don't get the right amount of exercise while pregnat? What about women who get "too much" exercise? I knew a woman who had a miscarriage after playing tennis. The two things were probably unrelated, but you could make the case that exerting herself while pregnant was murder.
And what about women at jobs that the Supreme Court has ruled don't really have to work too hard to accomodate pregnant or lactating women? If you need the money desperately, but the job forces you to risk your unborn child's well-being, are you gonna get thrown in jail for a miscarriage then?
niyad
(113,581 posts)they won't stop.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)women hating comments.
niyad
(113,581 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)anything to protect it.
Women, brown people, etc., need to learn their place.
Or so they think
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Orrex
(63,224 posts)It has to stop.
handmade34
(22,758 posts)alp227
(32,056 posts)Uhh...isn't it established science that it's harmful to smoke/drink while pregnant?
antigone382
(3,682 posts)What unhealthy habits or behaviors can pregnant women engage in (or even improve on, but not fully) without risking jail time if they miscarry, given that the burden of proof connecting the miscarriage to said unhealthy behaviors seems to be quite light?
How perfectly healthy and fetus-centered does my behavior have to be while pregnant to avoid committing a crime if my pregnancy ends in miscarriage, as do some 15-20% of known pregnancies?
alp227
(32,056 posts)being a risk to her pregnancy, by her doctor? There's a difference between knowingly and unknowingly committing misdeeds.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Under any circumstances. And while I think doctors do need to live up to ethical standards to ensure adequate and informed care, I trust women and their doctors to figure out the best options for their given situation without undue, inflexible legal intrusion.
niyad
(113,581 posts)strangers on the street chastise a pregnant woman (or perhaps one who merely appears to be pregnant) okay? is screaming at a woman for a cigarette or drink or even, goddess forfend, exercising, okay? because that is what all these laws and regulations, etc. are all about--control of the pregnant woman, control of every woman, for all sorts of reasons.
alp227
(32,056 posts)with regards to risky behavior during pregnancy.
niyad
(113,581 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)I obviously don't endorse smoking while pregnant. My point is that in a miscarriage situation, you can draw a dubious connection to anything a woman did that wasn't quite perfectly healthy. Drinking coffee slightly increases miscarriage risk. I don't think it warrants jail. Society does not take full ownership of a woman's body when she becomes pregnant.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)it started a long time ago and no one paid attention. can't wait to see where this goes.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I expect to be shipped off for glue or imprisoned or something.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Because somehow we are worthless; worthless is his mind.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Skittles
(153,193 posts)I SPECIALIZE IN KICKING ASS AND TAKING NAMES; yes INDEED
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Hell Yeah !!
Skittles
(153,193 posts)I just woke up, what did he do now
niyad
(113,581 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)we will kick Ben Stein Ass To The Moon
niyad
(113,581 posts)lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Women past childbearing who were employed as household servants. Provided, I guess, that they'd done their "duty" during their fertile years. If not, all bets off.
niyad
(113,581 posts)dystopic future. I had no idea it was going to be hundreds of pricks and pokes and votes across all the states, but that is pretty nearly where we are now.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)tblue37
(65,488 posts)G_j
(40,372 posts)the American Taliban in their true colors.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)How many more will follow?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)She was convicted on contradictory charges.
She was convicted for causing a pregnancy to terminate - killing a fetus.
She was also convicted for abandoning a baby in a dumpster. That same fetus.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)BainsBane
(53,072 posts)If the baby "died within minutes of being born," how can it be a miscarriage? If the baby was born alive, it was not miscarried. It either died from complications of the birth or was killed.
The woman herself says the baby was stillborn, but you bold text saying it died within minutes of being born. How do we know which it is? Because if your point in bold is accurate, she is guilty of some crime, at the least of improperly disposing of a body by throwing it into a dumpster.
The facts do matter. It's possible the case was mishandled so badly we can't actually know what the situation was, but I think it important not to conflate abortion, miscarriage, and death of a child after it's born. They are not at all the same thing. Women's reproductive rights, the right to have an abortion, extend to fetuses in the womb, not living the babies. The difference is crucial.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)I don't know what evidence they used to come to that conclusion. My understanding is that the medical examiner used results from a discredited "float test" in court to prove that the fetus was born alive.
The charges themselves are conflicted. She was convicted both of intentionally terminating a fetus (killing the fetus), and of neglect for abandoning a living child. I don't dispute that disposing of the fetus as described was probably not the best choice, and probably should not be legally allowed for public health reasons. But she was not convicted of irresponsibly dealing with medical waste. She was in effect, convicted of two contradictory counts of murder.
BainsBane
(53,072 posts)which are certainly conflicting counts. Abortion presumes it to be an unborn fetus rather than a living child. She needs a good appellate attorney to pursue this.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)This is somewhat distinct from illegal abortion. It is based on a feticide law that grant personhood to unborn fetuses, ostensibly to protect pregnant women from harm caused by others. Obviously the real intent, or at least implication of such laws, is now clear.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)method of determining whether or not it drew a breath of air. Not breathing would indicate dead. Breathing, live.
However, the method they used to determine this is considered comparable to throwing a witch into water. If the woman floats, she's a witch, if sinks and drowns, is not.
Definitions and facts do matter and unfortunately in this case the facts are not clear facts but opinion.
http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-complications/miscarriage/
So it seems it is possible for a fetus to be passed/born prematurely alive but unable to survive due to its immaturity and/or malformations. I do not think this would be common for the first 20 weeks. After the age the fetus might be able to survive outside the uterus, I would call it premature birth, not miscarriage. I have read some common useage of "stillborn" being meant a later term fetus born alive who then quickly died, but I would never use it that way, would use fetal death.
Hekate
(90,827 posts)A woman who had a miscarriage in the first trimester usually simply had a mess to clean up, and if her doctor wasn't satisfied that Mother Nature had cleaned her out, he would do a D&C to make sure all tissue was gone so it wouldn't fester. My mom had one of those, but she also had one where she hemorrhaged like hell and nearly died.
On the other hand, a second or even early third trimester birth could also be termed a miscarriage. You had a fetus that was too immature to survive. Jackie Kennedy's baby was miscarried. He took breath, but his little lungs were coated in something and just couldn't function. He died within a few days.
My mother also had a stillbirth, a boy that she carried to full term, but who died in utero two weeks before she gave birth. That was not called a miscarriage.
(Doctors usually referred to miscarriages as spontaneous abortions, but frankly women found that terminology callous.)
salin
(48,955 posts)I believe she is being sent to a women's penal facility in central Indiana - and there is a group ? that is actively working on appeal. It would be helpful to keep that thread alive and kicking - so that folks might have a chance to read about the group and get involved if so inclined.
This has mostly gone unnoticed in the wake of the Indiana Fiasco (RFRA response and pressure to fix) - but it is exactly the time that the less teaparty inclined in Indiana are more responsive to listening beyond the spin.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Thanks for this info!
salin
(48,955 posts)Trillo
(9,154 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Went back and looked...no it is an American state, Indiana. I still don't understand how she can be charged, but I DO understand that insane fundamentalists are in control of that state and it is now akin more to countries with the Taliban in charge.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)about as bad as Dred Scott and provides yet another reason to boycott all things Indiana now and for the foreseeable future.
The only thing Ms. Patel was guilty of, as far as I can see, is the improper disposal of medical waste\human remains. IANAL, but this one really stinks.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)unless you act exactly how they tell you to act.
Think I am exaggerating?
Willing to risk finding out?
I am not
justhanginon
(3,290 posts)I am an old guy and it even frightens me for the women in my life. I would think there is enough stress in dealing with a pregnancy without having to walk on eggshells in fear of something going medically amiss and then the possibility of being prosecuted for what is in reality a medical situation.
I won't even get into all the other bullshit that these people, who are bent on controlling women's lives, are trying to pass in state legislatures that are detrimental if not repugnant to women's lives. They will not be satisfied until they can completely dominate every aspect of a woman's life.
handmade34
(22,758 posts)for being a man that cares...
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)my heart aches for you
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It's a barbarian state. So sad.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)There is something fucked up and rotten to the bone in the state of Indiana
On Wednesday, State Senator John Broden (D-South Bend) filed a proposal to strengthen penalties against offenders convicted of child molestation.
The initiative enhances the penalty for sex crimes against children that result in the transmission of a sexually transmitted disease.
Any act against a child is unconscionable, but cases where victims are left with both emotional and physical trauma are especially troubling, said Sen. Broden. By upping the penalty against those that commit these heinous acts, we are standing up for victims.
Legislation initiated by Sen. Broden would enhance the penalty from a Level 3 to Level 1 felony for child molestation that results in the victim contracting a dangerous sexually transmitted disease (STD). Senate Bill (SB) 363 defines those STDs as: the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV); herpes; gonorrhea; syphilis; chlamydia or hepatitis. A Level 1 Felony carries a sentence of between 20 and 40 years in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.
http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Indiana-initiative-calls-for-strengthened-child-molestation-penalties-288566741.html?device=tablet&c=y
logosoco
(3,208 posts)of children "finding" guns and killing themselves or someone nearby (usually another child), but there never seem to be child neglect or endangerment charges in those cases.
What a strange country we live in.
yuiyoshida
(41,862 posts)disturbing, and... Indiana again ..
DamnYankeeInHouston
(1,365 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)I put a link in the OP to another thread about this case, which has more information about the next steps, what to do to support Purvi.
DamnYankeeInHouston
(1,365 posts)mfcorey1
(11,001 posts)handmade34
(22,758 posts)for keeping this going... there is nothing easy about this case... but what I know to be absolutely true is that Purvi Patel is personally paying for so many other injustices that just slip by in our society... cultural oppression of women, lack of services for women, stigmas, apathy, lack of empathy, etc...
I will fight this with whatever power I have... my voice, money, letters, pleas, facts... why women everywhere are not screaming, I don't know
a jury moved by only emotion, Xtian 'moral values' and fixed attitudes decided this case (oh, and a very conservative judge- Elizabeth C. Hurley, named to the bench by Pence in 2013)...
https://www.facebook.com/ircrc?ref=bookmarks
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)We are going so far backwards in women's rights we'll soon lose the vote