Democrat's Apathy For Unions Is Suicide

[WillTwain]

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 10:43 PM - Edit history (4)

For some reason unions do not receive the same love and support as other groups within the Democratic party. Compare the response to two recent moves by Republican Governors.

Governor Pence of Indiana signed a sickening anti-gay bill last week. Since then, the response has been overwhelming. Hundreds of businesses, the media and millions of individuals have either boycotted the state or expressed outrage. George Stephanopoulos actually did his job.

Governor Walker in Wisconsin signed a sick right-to-work bill and other than unions and a few college professors and economists, nobody gives a shit. I have not heard of lists of companies refusing to do business there. I have not heard outrage from Hollywood or sports franchises. Nobody cares. It is crickets from George Stephanopoulus.

There is no excuse for the sick law Pence signed. It will do damage to many in the LGBT community. But the damage Walker and right-to-work legislation will do to every working man and woman in America is enormous. Wages will decline dramatically and jobs will be lost. Local economies will suffer.

Even DUers, literally "Yawn" at most posts about unions. OmahaSteve does a great job of posting union posts. Many of them roll through without a reply or rec. And we are the front line for democratic solidarity. This is a troubling sign.

If at least Democrats cannot find love for unions again, we will all continue to gain equal rights which is obviously spectacular, but the problem is we will all have the same opportunities to live in poverty.

[WillTwain]

1. See what I mean

Nearly an hour after posting and not a single reply or rec. Houston, we have a problem.

[TNNurse]

29. I was outside washing windows

So will respond now......not supporting unions kind of makes you a Republican!
How's that?









!

[WillTwain]

38. Precisely.

You are not a true progressive, democrat or populist if you are not pro-union. i think that makes you a Republican. too.

[WillTwain]

93. Get This For Proof Of Apathy On DU

I posted at 8:18

Mineralman posted at 8:18. His post is a nineteen word joke about quitting DU onApril Fools Day.

His goofy post has 1800 views. This union post has 900 views.

An April Fools joke posted at the same minute as this union post, has twice the interest.

[Doctor_J]

155. mineralman has a big following

About fifty or more auto reccers. Most of his posts are goofy. And most of du is now vanity posts and duplicates. It's been in a death spiral along with the party for years.

Anyway excellent post.

[WillTwain]

158. That was my gut Feeling on Mineralman.

I thought I was reaching but thought it had some merit. Thanks a lot for the DU history and the kind words.

Trying to make a small difference without ending up being rejected by too many DUers. My two big complaints are Barack and Hillary. That means 75 percent hate me on day one.

Peace

[sabrina 1]

168. Many of the best DUers have moved on to other venues where issues like this are still as

important as they used to be. Ever since people began to see the change in DU from what was once a site to promote Democratic values, to where people who make excuses for NOT doing so, grew in numbers and for many activist Dems it isn't worth wasting time simply refuting what are essentially right wing talking points, when there is real work to be done.

DU used to be far more actively involved. And DUers still are, just not here.

Manny has a far bigger following than MM eg. So there are still majority here who still care about important issues, but nowhere near the numbers there used to be.

I won't say they were driven out, they chose to go.

We have some great Liberal Organizations now who are actually doing things like finding our own candidates, raising funds to support them, and winning in many cases. PCCC eg, is one of them. Working to rebuild the party from the ground up.

Union issues on DU would have had huge responses when the best of DU were still around.

I and a few others stay only because there are still a few of the old DUers still here who now are often attacked unbelievably on this forum, the way they used to be on Free Republic eg because they still believe that the issues that were important during the Bush years are still important.

[WillTwain]

205. Dr. J.

Where did you get your tag line?

Thanks

[Doctor_J]

217. It goes back to before I was a doctor

An old bowling team I was on consisted of "Ranger" Rick, "Cousin" Floyd, "Doctor J" and a fourth guy who also had a preprended moniker that escapes me.

[WillTwain]

222. Priceless Quote - "I never felt comfortable playing a populist" - Barack Obama

Is that from Geithner's book?

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. K and R. I DO see what you mean.

But , no, I can't explain it.

[WillTwain]

3. Nothing is more frustrating

Than knowing all that unions are doing for every schism within the democratic party and getting virtually no support back. Unions would solve every economic and equality issue for every democrat, yet the apathy exists. It is mind boggling.

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. There's always been a vague uneasiness among many ( not ALL, not MOST)

college grad and white collar-types here with collaborating and identifying w. unions.

Has something to do w. recent political history ( unions were socially conservative in and after the VN era; seen , you know, as "Archie Bunker" bastions.).

Also there's an element of old-fashioned class snobbery.

It's cooler and more fashionable, ( downright *chic*, really) to support lgbt issues now than it is to support labor. Signifies a certain erudition; sophistication.

And I NEVER thought THAT would happen in my lifetime.

I speak as someone with one foot in each camp. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

[WillTwain]

9. I tell you what, you nailed it. I could not sum it up better.

Unions are looked at as a place you escape from to more chic life.

Classism in America is a rampant problem. Many college grads (I am both a college grad and union man) look down on people with dirt under their finger nails. Capitalists countries germinate classism. The stratification of wealth insists upon it.

[ND-Dem]

41. +100

[yeoman6987]

136. Yes we all look down at the plumber, builder, electrician

Automachanic until they arrive to fix something and usually it is expensive but still look down on them overall. Doesn't make sense. One problem with union is that not much of the population belongs to a union so they don't have that personal attachment. If nothing is done, unions will go the way of the VCR. Everyone must save the unions.

[WillTwain]

183. Honesty , Is such a lonely word . - Billy Joel

[appalachiablue]

203. +1. People might not recognize the importance of tradesmen & skilled workers until their

Last edited Thu Apr 2, 2015, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

McMansion has a sewage backup and they only find out about it when they return home from vacation which I've seen, or their upscale neighborhood has a gas leak blow out fire which destroys several private residences. In the latter case, low wage untrained utility workers who didn't know what they were doing because of poor supervision was the likely reason for the accident.

A few years ago an Indian friend took a heat/ac technician training course in which most students did not read any English and some took photos of print materials in order to to try to figure out the information later. Eliminating government regulation and oversight, abolishing unions and using unskilled cheaper labor generates more profit for management but at what cost.
In Germany if automobiles are recalled by the manufacturer for a problem, the cars can't pass inspection until it's fixed unlike the US. Do you really want to be taken out by a driver who didn't have enough time or money to fix their car's defective brake problems?

The same goes for auto manufacturers and mechanics who work on elites expensive cars, medical technicians in their doctors offices and hospitals, and the agricultural industry and food handlers in the restaurants where they dine.
Permitting lowered standards, fewer govt. regulations and inspections, and less trained, less paid non-union workers in any profession or industry is highly dangerous. That goes for the current privatization of McSchools with uncertified teachers that is producing a vast population of undereducated masses who are having much difficulty finding decent employment. Those dispossessed masses might cause a lot of problems one day, before they're arrested and sent to prison.

So all people, even the wealthy better think and realize that a better educated and higher paid workforce creates a stronger society. We just saw 149 innocent people killed by a sick pilot whose cut rate airline company pays low salaries, has reduced govt. regulation and is so lax that it didn't monitor an employee with a serious medical problem even though the parent company, Luftansa had full knowledge of the pilots condition from doctors records he disclosed to them 6 years ago in 2009.

[WillTwain]

204. Another lie is government is bad. So, corporations are better? What the hell is that?

Government forces corporations to act with civility. The balance between the influence of government and business in our lives is way out of balance.

[Alkene]

179. +1 n/t

[Populist_Prole]

12. Quite right. It's my observation as well over the past 2 decades

Though I do believe there is some scorn by party wonks as they try to link "unions = reagan democrats", it's my feeling it's mostly class snobbery as well. Some disguise this class snobbery better than others, appearing indifferent to the working class; others seem openly scornful.

You can bet these types are all the anti-union and/or free-trade shills here on DU.

[WillTwain]

16. Republicans hate unions for two reasons, primarily. Democrats for another.

Rich Republicans know unions will take their money and redistribute it to hard working Americans. Poor Republicans are petty and jealous of brothers, sisters and neighbors that are living better than them.

Democrats loathe them because they view union members as an underclass. Some wealthy dems hate them for the same reason as rich Republicans. They are effectively Republicans but are too smart to allow themselves to claim the Republican title. Wanting to be considered cool is in the mix too.

[Populist_Prole]

23. Good summation

But I see a similar split in the GOP but it seems to work for them.

By this I mean the Rockerfeller/business/COC wing of the GOP hold their noses as they court the "wingnut wing" ( religious/social ) of the party, but the former group delivers much more than just lip-service to the latter.

In the democratic party, the working class has the numbers, but the elitist wing tells them to just STFU, except on election day.

[WillTwain]

27. It comes down to stupidity with "wing-nuts."

The cynical way the Reagan trickle-downers toy with dumb people is evil.

President Obama is one of the dems that says STFU until election day. I have never seen him look more pissed than when he spoke about the unions back around 2010. They were threatening to pull support and he looked at them like petulant children. I will never forget it.

[ieoeja]

60. Without a single poster saying a negative thing about unions, you resort to "they look down on us".

When I was a sustaining member of the DNC I received periodic "what's most important to you" surveys. I returned each and every one of them with "labor" written in as #1 and a note asking why "labor" or "unions" wasn't even a choice on the fucking survey.

[WillTwain]

65. My opinion is based on experience. Others appear to have recognized the same.

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

It is not an easy subject. I cannot tell you how many successful educated democrats I have met that cannot stand unions.

Do you expect DUers to hit this thread with anti-union thoughts? Not me.

[Dragonfli]

161. Well, us blue collar Democrats don't look down on them because the only ones of us even surviving

are Union members. The rest of us are not even talked about (the poor). I think you are referring to white collar Democrats and limousine liberals that are even higher up than white collar and I agree with your assessment concerning them.

All of us 'take a shower after work' types are looked down upon these days, the least well among us tho very poor are not even a thought, more like an embarrassment the party never talks about, being beneath the blessed middle class and all.

In my area that would be most of us because there are extremely few actual union jobs and few of us can get them, and to get them you really have to rely on nepotism, but that is another discussion.

We definitely want more unions and some actual union jobs available to us, but most of them were lost with manufacturing. I am a tradesman and did not have the connections to get in a union, so I have struggled for quite some time, the only union work for us here are government projects (few and far between), residential work is all done by local contractors that can not get any work if they bid using union scale, the few shops that are union take what little gov. projects are up for bid, there simply is such little union work available that they may as well not exist here. I can't speak for the rest of the country.

My dad was union before they closed down the steel mills and could never find union work again. There is a bigger problem here than lack of support for unions, there is lack of work for unions since the off shoring began with reagan and China and continues to this day with shipping of everything else via Democrat supported free trade.

[ND-Dem]

165. yes, all the building trades unions here are hurting bad. it's deliberate union busting pure

and simple. onshoring cheap nonunion labor or offshoring work to cheap nonunion labor.

[WillTwain]

225. Like you said, "The only ones of us even surviving are union members."

[Nay]

227. As the mother of an experienced union electrician, I can add that there are increasingly

fewer jobs for union electricians of any kind, for a couple of reasons.
> the small shops cannot keep you fully employed even if they hire all union
> commercial construction collapsed in 2008 and has not recovered, no matter what they say
> many jobs use non-union/undocumented workers, whether it's as electricians, construction workers, plumbers, etc.

My son was lucky in that he had other skills (computer), but if he had had to depend on being an electrician, he would have starved.


My brother is a union radio operator on commercial ships. There are few jobs left for them, either -- mostly they have been replaced by computers.

Offshoring and technology, BY DESIGN, will replace any and every decently-paid job in the U.S. This is their way of breaking any power we have over them, and instituting the feudalism that they have felt was their due all along. Of course, climate change is very likely to wipe them out, too, but they've always felt that they'd rather have everything destroyed than to have to share with their 'lessers.'

[Dragonfli]

228. Yes, no matter how one looks at it, those not born wealthy are pretty much screwed from now on

I really do support unions and want union jobs available to us, but the powers that be are too powerful for us to simply be able to work an honest days labor and be able to survive and it is only getting worse.

I am getting old, but I am very concerned for all the young people that are destined to live in poverty simply because no matter how hard they work, wages will keep dropping and survival will continue to become harder to achieve. I see a great deal of starving homeless people in the future (there are already an exponentially increasing number of both.)

It is like human beings no longer matter unless born rich, and those that are rich have apparently had all empathy and sense of community bred out of them long ago.

I guess the only thing left is a race between environmental death to us all sooner rather than later, or mass starvations of most of us leaving only the wealthy to linger a while longer until the lack of a survivable environment takes them as well.

Perhaps several million years of evolution will produce a better intelligent species, one that is not hell bent on self destruction and selfishness towards others.

[WillTwain]

231. Economic class advancement in America is the worst in the Western world

We need a revolutionary acceptance of socialism. From a living wage, to a doubling of union members, we need a socialist storm against the most extreme capitalism on the planet.

[WillTwain]

230. This is not how it has to be.

Germany has very high union numbers and is kicking tail. By law, boards of companies are required to have union members on board. That is a law we must pass.

[PrefersaPension]

145. Good for you -- I did the same thing.

I'm not even in an union, but I know how important they are. How the Republican party swayed hard workers to shoot themselves in the foot and be "against" unions is beyond me.

[RedCappedBandit]

174. Seems there are "Democrats"

who hold disdain for unions because they've accepted the propaganda - that union workers are lazy and overpaid, while they work their asses off and have no rights or benefits. Rather than blaming the money hoarders who are actually responsible, they blame their brothers and sisters who have fought for the rights of working people and rightfully are seeing some benefits.

[WillTwain]

184. I have worked Blue and white collar. Both have advantages.

but there are a lot more blue collar guys that would love to get a white collar job than the reverse, especially after age 30-35.

Most blue collar guys can do most white collar jobs. Most white collar workers would flat out refuse to do blue collar work, even if they could do it. It is far too demanding and humbling.

[whathehell]

49. Agreed, and it's a tad stupid considering white collar unions like the Teacher's union

not to mention all of those in entertainment and professional athletics.

[WillTwain]

52. Unfortunately, solidarity is not why some are in unions.

They have no idea what it means. Unions benefits and wages appeal to greedy dicks, not the principles of unions. They are almost worse than hard ass Republicans.

[Bluenorthwest]

214. The majority of Union members working in entertainment are Teamsters, Electricians, Carpenters,

Painters and other craftspeople. Even among the 'creative Unions' the bulk of actors, directors, stage mangers, editors and writers are not making vast sums, most are middle class income level when they are because of their Unions, for which they strike and honor picket lines in a world wide and dedicated fashion.

[WillTwain]

215. A few people get it.

It definitely seems like the "creative" and "skilled trades " have more loyal union members than the labor trades.

[whathehell]

216. I hope you didn't misunderstand me -- I am 100% Pro-Union

regardless of the field.

[WillTwain]

221. Amen

[beerandjesus]

75. Very balanced and thoughtful perspective.

I hate the idea of LGBT rights as being "fashionable", but fuck it, if that's how it's gonna be, I'll take it. You could argue that support for voting rights was similarly fashionable among Northern elites who reflexively looked down their noses at the poor rubes in the South.

And although I'll call out the Democrats all day long for abandoning their traditional union (aka white, working-class) base, you make a damn good point about many unions' social conservatism as being one of the causes for the rift (as opposed to the naked greed on the part of the DLC that, frankly, it's easier for people like me to point to).

Thanks for the thoughts!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

206. You raise some good points

I noticed you have South Carolina as you avatar which is a right to work state so being pro-union might be a bit harder for you.

Boeing, the largest employer in my town, has been busy playing your state and mine off against each other. I think if more states had strong unions fewer companies could play this game.

[beerandjesus]

211. Oh, it's absolutely appalling how Boeing's been doing that....

...but what's even worse is that a single private corporation is able to wield so much power over the citizens of two states, and to do so with absolute impunity.

What I really don't understand, especially among the so-called "Libertarians" I run into here, is how people don't see that strong unions are, at least potentially, an alternative to bigger government. Admittedly, the corporate hegemons have a lot of liberty to ignore organized labor, as they did in the late 19th century, if they're not legally compelled to recognize it; but once that psychological hurdle is crossed, if you really believe in "small government", I don't see how you can do better than unions to remedy the obvious imbalance of power between a large corporation and an individual worker.

There's definitely a lot of social conservatism here in South Carolina, but it seems that a lot of smart people gravitate toward libertarianism over Republican-style fascism--and it's not all that surprising, given that genuinely liberal voices are few and far between. Libertarianism, by default, becomes an enlightened alternative. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good first step, since it gets them on board with a lot of important social issues, but as an economic populist, I'm much more concerned with people ultimately recognizing that being oppressed by corporations is no better than being oppressed by government. Unions are incredibly weak here; the South has historically been hostile to unions in a way that was never the case in, say, the Midwest. But my hope is that, over time, that will change--and I know that a lot of good people are working their asses off to get Boeing here unionized!

[WillTwain]

220. Shameless

[erronis]

58. And having been around (and working for) the Teamsters, AFL, CIO

I can also say that the unions several decades ago were not exactly pristine and I believe that has tarnished their current reputation.

That being said, I'd much rather have a union chief telling me what was fair than some @sshole venture vulture that has just bought my company in order to eviscerate it.

[WillTwain]

61. Another great point.

Even if unions have flaws, they are on your side. Corporations have bigger flaws than unions and are against you. Why is this so hard for most to grasp?

[ND-Dem]

124. (I have to say, sometimes the unions are on the corporations' side; but they're forced to at

least give some surface concessions. And when their membership kicks, to do more than that.)

[WillTwain]

125. They are so weak today.

I know quite a few tough older union guys. They cannot believe what is happening. Unions are almost as wimpy as non-union shops.

They have been beaten up for 35 years.

[ND-Dem]

17. I can.

[WillTwain]

22. Fire away!

[ND-Dem]

25. Why support for labor is low here and the reverse is true for identity issues?

Wouldn't be good for my health.

[Maedhros]

32. Identity issues are used to herd us toward supporting corporate candidates.[n/t]

[WillTwain]

40. A great big head fake used to think democrats are with us.

[Maedhros]

44. More like a protection racket.

Vote for us - OR ELSE!

[WillTwain]

48. Love your tag line.

Unions may flex their muscles this year. Maybe, they will shock democrats and endorse Bernie, if he runs.

[Maedhros]

59. Democrats of all stripes need to muster the courage to defy conventional political calculus

and get behind someone who will actually fight Wall Street and the Republicans, instead of trying to be pals with them.

(Thanks - its from The Silmarillion).

[WillTwain]

63. Conventional wisdom is now conventional stupidity.

[Maedhros]

64. It's Party propaganda, and so many are willing to believe it.

Having expectations is Wrong Thinking.

This article explains it pretty well:

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_hope_diet_would_the_tea_party_fall_for_this/

At any rate, “hope” is a virtue they mainly recommend for you, the Democratic voter; with their funders and bundlers, the relationship is a little more contractual. For them our Democratic leaders undertake to perform certain actions; it is only for the rank and file that they recommend a diet of wishes. If we complain about this state of affairs, they will no doubt tell us that results in this material world aren’t everything. There’s something philosophical and ennobling about hoping for things. “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him,” says Job of the Almighty.

[beerandjesus]

79. Shit, that's a devastating article by Frank.....

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen it!

[WillTwain]

86. Hope is a lazy cowardly sales pitch. Like Frank say, deliver.

[beerandjesus]

90. Or at least TRY to fuckin' deliver, right??

[Maedhros]

87. But it hit's the nail on the head, doesn't it?

"Vote for Hillary - because she might change her stripes!"

(And if she doesn't, don't criticize her, because that only helps the Republicans).

[WillTwain]

89. With a sledge hammer.

[ND-Dem]

127. even when they don't do diddly, or worse, sell us out, we're still supposed to shut up.

[ND-Dem]

126. devastating and so true.

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 09:31 PM - Edit history (1)

When a young person with lousy life chances thinks of his future as a kind of lottery, that is the appropriate terrain for hope. Tell the young to read “Think and Grow Rich,” and to buy a scratch ticket while they’re at it. Why not?

But with politics it’s different: We form groups, we strategize, we donate, we plan how to best advance our collective interests. This is not the lottery. When we elect public servants, the deal ought to be a little more of a sure thing.

Recall, in this connection, one of the most annoying invocations of “hope” ever to cross a politician’s lips, John Edwards’ vice presidential acceptance speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention. His tag line, which he repeated many times: “Hope is on the way.” Not “help,” mind you; “hope.” Edwards had lots of good, practical ideas, but this phrase rubbed me the wrong way. What it seemed to suggest was not that the candidate was actually going to do something for the suffering, hard-working people he described, but that, by the strength of his presence, he was going to give people a chance that someone might do something for them. We give him the vice presidency, he gives us a Powerball ticket.

Hope” also sets an extremely low standard for judging Democratic politicians. Hope is, by their definition, something they bring with them, or a place they come from, or a poster they are (literally!) the illustration for; ensuring that this fanciful substance flows our way doesn’t require them actually to, you know, enact anything we’re hoping for. On the contrary, they can do things (like Clinton’s deregulations or Obama’s spying program) that actually harm their constituents, and then tell us, as Barack Obama tweeted after the 2012 election, “The definition of hope is you still believe, even when it’s hard.”

This is the opposite of accountability. It means, just keep waiting, and just keep voting. If you think good thoughts long enough, maybe someday you’ll get that million bucks, or that single-payer healthcare system.

And that’s probably why this stuff springs so goddamned eternal. After 30 years of these pseudo Democrats...it’s easy enough to understand why elected officials love the concept. “Hope” means, forget about how you got taken last time. Think positively. Maybe this next Democrat is the one who will finally act the way you think Democrats ought to act. And when he doesn’t, “hope” means you need to stick with him anyway, because . . . well, because he’s the one who carries hope in his back pocket and all.

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/23/the_hope_diet_would_the_tea_party_fall_for_this/

[WillTwain]

132. Wow, really well thought out.

That really brings us back to unions. In the beginning, to a young kid from the other side of the tracks, hope is a good paying union job. But, if a poor kid is lucky enough to get a good union job, he gets change, too.

It delivers. Shamefully, the ladder unions offer is under siege.

[F4lconF16]

178. Wow. [phone]. Beautifully said nt.

[ND-Dem]

123. why, i think you're right. anti-labor candidates supported by the likes of the Gap and

Levis (both with horrendous to bad records on labor, esp gap, which employs 3rd world labor as young as 8 years old in slavery like conditions)

But they just *love* gay people!! Cause it doesn't cost them a cent to do so. Cause they can exploit gays just like straights, sending them to the slave labor camps or the board rooms, depending on what's more expedient.

[City Lights]

4. I agree with you and it's baffling.

Many elected Democrats seem to adopt the "who else are they gonna vote for?" attitude when it comes to unions. The union vote is definitely one that is taken for granted. For the life of me, I can't understand why Democrats don't speak loudly in defense of unions and the good they do. Seems like another example of the Dems letting the GOPee control the narrative.

[WillTwain]

5. This is why I believe the leaders of the "New Democratic" party are complicit with Republicans

If people actually understood even a small bit what unions literally bring to the table, they would be all over unions. My argument is the Third Way Democrats think unions are detrimental to business.

[MisterP]

6. BTW, I have a good analogy for social "vs" economic liberalism

"is a square made by the vertical lines, or by the horizontal?"
too often we end up boiling it down to one of the lines; the neolibs boil it down to a single dot (it's not like Rahm is running on the social but not the economic left)
it's a dangerous neglect that ends up harming both the dimensions

[WillTwain]

7. Great way of saying it

Everyone has there own interests that has no overlap to others. Ironically, unions cross all lines vertical or horizontal.

[MisterP]

15. exactly--unions have had to build coalitions since the failure of lily-white unionism in the 1900s

they've been at the forefront of "social" as well as "economic" issues, and, more importantly, shown quite vividly how the two go together
they don't just know how bad it is for this or that group, they've been helping fight it --heck, they have the numbers! even the CIA-coopted AFL made some noises
come to think of it, the only neolib who tries to get by on social liberalism is Feinstein: the rest are just Blairites--"Bush, but without believing that gays cause hurricanes"

[WillTwain]

18. Nice,

In my union years, women and minorities enjoyed the same wages, benefits and security as every other member. What do democrats not get about that.

[MisterP]

46. the DLC took over 1994-6, arguing the party had to "move to the center" after '94's "GOP wave"

(a lot of which were apparently aisle-jumpers) but more importantly that they had to get a lot of money to fight the GOP: that meant insulation from social as well as economic groups' demands, but identity politics is a bit friendlier to neoliberalism than tariffs and enforcing good wages

now they've got it set up so that the Dems get $ if they win or lose--so why put up a fight when you can just blame the voters?

this demand for a rightward swing was also around in the 70s: Scoop Jackson thought we had to be "stronger" on foreign policy, and the likes of Jeane Kirkpatrick left because there was too much party democracy what with the primaries

[WillTwain]

54. Fighting real power (Big money and Wall Street) takes guts.

Obama and company do not have the guts to stand up. I do not think they really care much, either or they would have the guts. They take the path of least resistance.

[ND-Dem]

128. a lot of them will tell you it never happened.

[Orsino]

10. Yes. It's not complete apathy yet...

...but we are some of the reasons for the decline of unions.

Private campaign money, of course is the main one, and we are not immune.

[WillTwain]

11. Reagan really got the ball rolling. That prick ruined everything - everything.

He put union bashing in vogue among whites, many of whom are union members.

[madfloridian]

13. Teachers...

will not forget the attacks on them from both parties. Unrelenting.

[WillTwain]

19. Still, They need to pick a party. There is hope with democrats. No chance with Republicans.

[ND-Dem]

20. Nothing personal, but ironic in light of your defense of the extreme anti-union shop "Amazon".

Solidarity is important, or labor gets picked off group by group.

Teachers are just next on the laundry list. Join the crowd.

[WillTwain]

24. Teachers are just next on the laundry list. Join the crowd.

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 11:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Exactly, they are picking them off one at a time. Problem is, nobody cares about their neighbor until they scream at them to help them out. Many teachers are Republicans that do not fight for miners, construction workers and other blue-collar union workers.

People better wake up. We all need to support every union in the country. Look at Europe. They are united.

[ND-Dem]

26. +100 (Though I tend to disagree about Europe these days; same tactics in play).

[WillTwain]

30. They are losing it a bit.

But , France had riots that nearly shut down the country a few years age over almost trivial language for new employees in a union contract.

[ND-Dem]

31. good on them.

[Rex]

92. In Texas teachers cannot strike nor even say the word 'union'. It seems the Reganites won the war.

Now I hear people I know that are sensible, claiming vouchers are the way to go and private schools will be the future.

I weeps for the childrens.

[WillTwain]

100. The brain washing works. The voucher thing is a perfect example. As is the flat tax mantra repeated

by poor people.

[Rex]

102. You will see a lot of DUer missing from pro-union threads.

They won't admit it (well a few might) but they are pro capital and fuck the unions. I guess some Reagan Dems just could never let go of Reaganomics. Too easy to exploit the labor force. Unions hamper those efforts and hurt the bottom line.

IOW, their business plan does not include their workers that they see as replaceable. Which we totally are now thanks to 35 years of Disaster Capitalism and unfettered Wall Street.

They are the same people that had nothing nice to say about OWS. Imagine that.

[ND-Dem]

130. and a lot of them are apparently Party operatives. Surprise, surprise.

[WillTwain]

190. Key to understand: Larry Summers, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Rahm Emannual,

All their talking heads and marketing departments are elitists. Many of them just want to enjoy a cushy career in politics and have no clue what the party was built on. It is just a fun job. There is no commitment to workers.

There are about 40 percent of elected dems that are genuine. Of course, every Republican sucks.

[ND-Dem]

129. have they been paying attention? there are charters to hell and gone, and they're mostly

failures -- and a lot of them thieving failures.

[ND-Dem]

14. +1,000,000 K&Rs

And I venture to say that judging by ruling class support against Pence's gay bill, there is little to no ruling class opposition to equal rights for gay people and a great deal of support. Which tells me it won't hurt their bottom line one bit -- unlike support for unions and other pro-labor measures.

Shifting the seating plan in steerage class doesn't make for greater equality.

[WillTwain]

21. That is it.

As I have written before, the two parties agree on economics almost completely. They wage battle over social issues to gain the White House. This is a crucial thought in understanding why workers are dying on the vine. Nobody is fighting for the middle-class. Democrats can establish progressive bonafides by pushing the social envelope. This allows them to ignore UNIONS AND WAGES. No minimum wage increase under Obama. What the hell is that?

[MaggieD]

28. It's the circular firing squad that is the hallmark of the Democratic Party...

... and always has been. We always seem to have time to find fault with our own. Even the unions that have done so much for this country and the Democratic party.

ETA: It wasn't so long ago that even DUers did not give a crap about their LGBT supporters. In fact, they blamed LGBT people for political losses. Nice to see that has changed.

[WillTwain]

34. Do you have a solution to the dying middle class? I think it is unions.

The fact that many democrats are apathetic towards union is an enormous problem. You call it a circular firing squad. Well, that is a nice change from unions being shot by a line-up of democrats and republicans.

[MaggieD]

43. I agree...

I was raised in a union household (teachers) and realize it built the middle class. But I have seen Democrats not just apathetic to unions, but even bash them. It's the democrat's propensity to find someone to blame for political losses that drives it, IMO.

There is only one thing Reagan and I ever agreed on, and that is speak no ill of your fellow (Democrat). He said, republican of course. But it's true. If you want political power you cannot do the circular firing squad thing. Dems never seem to learn that lesson.

[WillTwain]

56. There is a reason why Republicans hate unions more than anything else.

Unions are their only threat.

[MaggieD]

232. I think unions are the solution too

[Maedhros]

36. Blaming [X] for political losses is just a convenient means to avoid placing blame where it belongs:

bad candidates, and bad campaigns.

[MaggieD]

39. Exactly....

That's what I said when they were blaming LGBT folks for John Kerry's loss. When I opined that the reality was he ran a bad campaign I was banned here, despite having thousands and thousands of posts. Mod must have been a big Kerry fan. LOL!

[Maedhros]

45. Blaming Nader for Gore's horrible campaign is the iconic example. [n/t]

[MaggieD]

51. Nope - that's actually a perfect example of...

... how disunity in the Democratic party puts republicans in power. Stupidest move by progressives, EVER. IMO. What we got as a result was the Worst. President. Ever.

ETA: ever meet Nader in person? He's a complete jackass, and couldn't get elected for dog catcher. But he sure is good at snowing people.

[Maedhros]

62. I saw him speak at the Schnitzer Auditorium in Portland in the nineties.

Pretty much everything he said was spot-on. I have never had a personal conversation with the man, however, so I could not make a judgement of whether he is a "jackass" or not.

I'll agree to disagree about his responsibility for Gore's loss. I'd say the lion's share of the responsibility goes to the thousands of Florida Democrats who voted for Bush, who greatly outnumbered the Democrats who voted for Nader.

[WillTwain]

66. Nader is behind Rand Paul

[Maedhros]

70. I wouldn't put it quite that way.

Nader did say this (from here: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/ralph-nader-would-prefer-this-republican-over-generalissima-hillary-clinton/):

“I support Rand Paul on foreign, military policy, the federal reserve and the bloated military budget. All of which {Hillary} is on the other side. Who’s liberal and who’s conservative anymore?”

He's calling out specific policies, not giving a blanket endorsement.

From here: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/25510-truths-and-falsehoods-about-ralph-naders-new-book

Then Werleman launches his attack: "But Ralph Nader wants liberals to back libertarian Republican Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky)". . . . But does Nader seriously believe liberals are prepared to sacrifice the other 90 percent of their ideals to rally behind a neo-confederate, Koch brother-shill like Rand Paul?"

In fact, Nader never says this or anything close to this. The index in Nader's Unstoppable reveals three mentions of Rand Paul on pages 43, 92 and 109:

p. 43: "In 2013, Senator Wyden [D-Oregon] teamed up with Republican senator Rand Paul to introduce legislation that would legalize industrial hemp grown in the United States."

p. 92: "In fact, in 2013, a debate over the military and domestic use of drones broke out, sparked by Senator Rand Paul's twelve-hour filibuster, which brought together mainstream conservative and liberal think tanks, Republican and Democratic lawmakers, and citizen activists of both Right and Left."

p. 109: "In March 2013, Senator Patrick Leahy [D-Vermont], chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee and the new senator Rand Paul introduced the Justice Safety Valve Act of 2013, allowing judges to impose sentences below mandatory minimums."

Nowhere in Unstoppable does Nader ask liberals to sacrifice any part of their ideals to rally behind Paul. In fact, Nader tells liberals just the opposite, telling them to be uncompromising in their principles, "To create a convergence that will work and endure, at the onset those from the Left should have a take-us-or-leave-us stance, indicating they are not ready to compromise their principles but will work with any good-faith conservative who shares this one goal."

Nader criticizes Rand Paul here (http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/28/politics/ralph-nader-rand-paul/) for pandering to conservatives:

Nader told Rudkowski he shares Paul's views "against militarism" and "against a bloated military budget" but argued the Kentucky Republican is "changing by the month."

"He's beginning to change," he continued. "You can see him in just one year. He's not going to go on the floor and filibustering again, the way he did courageously. That's what blind ambition does."

Nader argued that Paul wants to give more aid to Israel, a reference to the first-term senator's policy on foreign aid that came under question this year.
...
Nader has been pushing the idea of a left-right alliance and earlier this year said he could envision Paul as a possible leader of the movement, but still expressed skepticism of what he called his "evolving" views.

[WillTwain]

72. True,

Still surprising rhetoric.

[Maedhros]

82. I do understand what he's getting at.

At the time of it's inception, the Tea Party shared some values with the Progressive Left. Both groups realized that our elected leaders were not representing our interests, and in the beginning the Tea Party was making some sense. Of course, it was rapidly co-opted and molded into a rabid attack dog for reactionary policies.

I thought at the time that if disaffected conservative (not reactionary) and progressive voters, each shunned by their Party, could find common ground (e.g. civil liberties, ending reckless wars, etc.) then perhaps something good could come from it. That is the essence of Nader's recent book - stop the tribal name-calling long enough to realize that we're all on the outside looking in when it comes to the ultra-wealthy and their lock on governance.

[MaggieD]

74. Nader is an egotistical gadfly, IMO

[ND-Dem]

133. In the 2000 presidential election in Florida, George W. Bush defeated Al Gore by 537 votes.

Nader received 97,421 votes, which led to claims that he was responsible for Gore's defeat.

Nader... states:

"In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all."

(which would net a 13%, 12,665 votes, advantage for Gore over Bush.)

When asked about claims of being a spoiler, Nader typically points to the controversial Supreme Court ruling that halted a Florida recount, Gore's loss in his home state of Tennessee, and the "quarter million Democrats who voted for Bush in Florida."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader_presidential_campaign,_2000#The_.22spoiler.22_controversy

[MaggieD]

73. Gore would have been an excellent President

But regardless, what I have learned in 38 years of voting and watching politics is that the worst Democrat is better than then best Republican. And that is true because of the power of legislative majorities and the USSC.

There will ALWAYS be voters that cross party lines, and in most cases they cancel each other out. But the history of presidential elections is pretty clear. When a party is divided among two candidates in a race where both lean toward the same agenda the united party wins. Nader did in fact bring us Bush, just like Perot gifted us with Clinton.

I believe Naderites don't like to own the responsibility for it because the consequences were devastating.

Nader gives a good speech like lots of other candidates, but he has an ego the size of Montana. I've seen him in action a few times, but the worst impression I ever got of him was watching him berate a FA on an airplane because he thought the seats in coach didn't give him enough leg room. Apparently he thought the FA was personally responsible for that situation, or perhaps the fact that he could not afford a first class seat. But this particular incident was well after he had anointed Bush as president. So maybe he was just angry and bitter at himself at that point.

[WillTwain]

77. The world we be a dramatically better place if Scalia did not appoint Bush.

[MaggieD]

78. And we wouldn't have had a dozen terrible USSC decisions

If Gore had been elected instead of Bush. I will always blame Nader and his followers for that. SMH.

[WillTwain]

81. Nader has done some great work. Nader damaged Gore in Florida. Two facts.

[MaggieD]

107. I agree

I held my nose and voted for Obama in the general, even though it was clear to me in 2008 that he'd waste far too much time trying to compromise with republicans that had no intention of compromising with him (and dang it, I was right). I also suspected, based on his senate vote on FISA, that he would continue to evil shit the NSA was doing under Bush. I do admit I was a bit taken by surprise by his support for banksters. That one I did not see coming.

Yes, the lesser of two evils is still evil, but it's also the lesser. I'm a practical Democrat.

[ND-Dem]

141. More Florida Democrats went for Bush than for Nader, but you blame Nader. Okey-dokey.

[MaggieD]

146. Yep - I definitely blame Nader

Some republicans vote for democrats and some democrats vote for republicans in every election. But when a party splinters the party by running two candidates that party always loses.

Nader did it on purpose because he thought he should have more say so and political power within the party. His objective was to punish the party. Unfortunately, in his temper tantrum he punished the whole world.

[Maedhros]

84. Pinning Gore's loss on Nader has never made much sense, given all the other factors that played into

Gore's loss. I see it simply as a mechanism for right-leaning Democrats to suppress leftist ideas and convince the rank-and-file that rightward drift is the only path to success.

But that's been hashed out a million times, and if you still believe it after all this time there is no amount of evidence that will change your mind.

[MaggieD]

105. I'm not a right leaning democrat

There is no evidence that can convince me (because the evidence leads me to a different conclusion), you are correct about that! We will agree to disagree.

What dismays me is not an alternate opinion, but the chance that as a party of progressives we are subject to repeating mistakes if we do not see them as mistakes. However, I do respect your opinion on the issue.

[ND-Dem]

134. +100

[Oilwellian]

95. Gore won Florida

The Supreme Court gave the presidency to Bush.

[MaggieD]

106. True, IMO - but the disunity made it close enough to steal

[ND-Dem]

131. I saw him speak in Seattle in the 90s. I found him inspiring and I'll echo your comments

about Democrats who went for Bush.

Gore didn't lose, though.

[MaggieD]

147. He gives a good speech AND throws major temper tantrums

No one with a temperament like Nader is even remotely suitable for president. And he had zero chance of winning. So he played the spoiler. On purpose. And he ruined himself in the process. But man, it was an epic temper tantrum- that's for sure.

My opinion is that he encouraged people to throw away their votes to further his ego and personal grudges against the party. He loved to tell people there was no difference between Gore and Bush, and was very, very wrong.

[ND-Dem]

148. More florida democrats voted for Bush than for Nader; about 5 times more in fact.

why the obsession with Nader?

Why not be obsessed with Gore's failure to carry his own (Democratic) voters and his own state?

[MaggieD]

149. Because 97 thousand people in FL voted for Nader

And they sure as hell weren't republicans.

Why the obsession with excusing Nader's deliberate sabotage of the democratic party?

[ND-Dem]

150. and half a million florida democrats went for bush.

[MaggieD]

152. Yes, it's a swing state

What's your point? Nader originally said he would leave swing states alone. He lied. I suspect he did that to get donors and celebs on board. But he still lied.

[Major Hogwash]

163. Do you have ANY proof whatsoever they weren't Republicans?

[MaggieD]

166. No, just experience in politics and common sense

Republicans don't generally vote for the Green Party candidate unless they're trying to skew a liberal party primary.

By the same token, you have no proof they weren't republicans, nor common sense, nor a Green Party agenda that would be remotely acceptable to conservative voters.

[ND-Dem]

37. wasn't there a purge of lgbt here not so long ago?

[MaggieD]

42. I don't know....

I rejoined under the amnesty thing not too long ago. But I was banned for saying Kerry lost because he ran a bad campaign (at the time they were blaming LGBT folks seeking equal rights for his loss).

[ieoeja]

53. There were a lot of really ugly GLBT posters.

They were just plain mean and nasty. They were banned for being trolls. But a better description would have been "assholes".

There also seemed to be a concerted effort to convice GLBT not to vote for Obama. Obama walked into a dark room? "Obama is a homophobe who keeps the lights off so he doesn't have to see gays!" Some of the logic was just about that specious.

And I am fairly certain one was banned simply for his/her inability to follow basic logic. 2+2=5.

[MaggieD]

76. Maybe they hold a grudge

Obama has been an excellent president on GLBT issues, but that certainly wasn't apparent during his campaign given that he hobnobbed with several some very homophobic bigots in the hopes of getting their constituents on board.

[ND-Dem]

135. worse than "homophobic." Rick Warren = guest of honor at his inauguration. WTF?

[MaggieD]

151. Yep. I was surprised that Obama turned around...

... On that issue. Grateful, but surprised.

[ND-Dem]

153. Warren came, gave the invocation. Why do you say Obama "turned around"? He never

"turned around," despite criticism.

In December 2008, President-elect Obama chose Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration ceremony. The decision angered pro-choice and LGBT advocates and led to criticism of both Obama and Warren.[21] Obama defended his choice of Warren, saying that although he disagreed with the minister's positions on abortion and same-sex marriage, there should be room for dialogue on such difficult social issues.[22]

More controversy ensued when it was announced that Warren would be the keynote speaker at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Annual Commemorative Service on January 19, 2009, the day prior to the inauguration.[23] On January 20, 2009, Warren delivered the Invocation, which was generally praised for its positive message.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Warren

The only time he 'turned around' was when he dropped his own pastor and long-time associate from Chicago, Jeremiah Wright -- for political considerations. His supposed friend.

[MaggieD]

156. His administration refused to support DOMA

He ended don't ask, don't tell. And he used the presidency to declare support for marriage equality. AND numerous executive orders that helped the cause as well.

He has been, bar none, the greatest leader for LGBT equality to ever hold the presidency. I will always be grateful to him for that. Especially after nothing but lip service from the party up until his leadership on equality.

[ND-Dem]

157. DOMA: Enacted under Clinton ("by large, veto-proof majorities")

Clinton – along with key legislators – later advocated for DOMA's repeal.

The Obama administration announced in 2011 that it had concluded Section 3 was unconstitutional and that although the administration would continue to enforce the law while it existed, it would no longer defend the law in court.

In United States v. Windsor (2013), the U.S. Supreme Court declared Section 3 of DOMA unconstitutional under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

Seems to me it's the horrible right-wing Supreme Court that did the heavy lifting.

[MaggieD]

159. Well, you'd be wrong in my book

I have to say, I find your links and citations a bit condescending given that I spent 15 years of my life working on political change in this area. But maybe you meant them for others.

[ND-Dem]

162. The links are not intended to be condescending, as I know nothing about you. They are

intended as evidence for my reply.

Why do you think I should know you spent 15 years working in this area?

I think it's a bit condescending to expect anonymous people on the internet to know of your importance.

[MaggieD]

167. Okay no problem

But you did directly respond to a short post of mine in another thread where I stated I had plenty of experience on the issue. But I accept that you didn't mean to come off the way I read it.

[ND-Dem]

122. they were purged as LGBT, en masse, right?

[ieoeja]

185. No, they were purged as assholes or trolls.

There have been multiple purges of pro-gun types en masse. But in no instance were they purged for being pro-gun. They were purged for blatant racism.

Frankly, a lot more of them should have been purged. DU does not quite turn a blind eye to racism by pro-gunners. But DU's vision is very bad when it comes to it.

The reason it could appear DU was going after pro-gunners, rather than racists, is because they were all posting their racism in the same threads. A single thread can result in mass purgings as they urge each other on to greater and greater intolerable postings.

Likewise, a lot of GLBT were posting ever increasing nastiness in joint threads. But just as the pro-gunners were not purged en masse for being pro-gun, the GLBT were not purged en masse for being GLBT. We still have lots of both groups here, after all. They were purged for being assholes or trolls.

[ND-Dem]

192. I didn't ask if they were purged "for being LGBT".

"they were purged as LGBT, en masse, right?"


I asked if there was a significant group of LGBT who were purged en masse. And there was.

[ieoeja]

193. So what? They were assholes. They were purged. Are you suggesting PPR should be rationed? n/t

[ND-Dem]

195. No; I'm suggesting "asshole" is a subjective term. Regardless, there was a group of

LGBT who were purged en masse; I believe we've established that.

And it's my recollection they were purged for political differences, not assholism. But I'll leave it at that.

[TheKentuckian]

229. The correlation with the folks that don't give a damn about working class needs and now the

first focus on social issues and those you are talking about is very high.

Once party leadership got loud and proud (from the rear, mind you) they did too and went from finger pointing and talking ponies to ardent allies to the exclusion of about all else accompanied by insinuation and direct assertion that focus on economic, security, and foreign policy matters is if not actually racist then at least white and comfortable oriented some how pretending away that the people most likely impacted by said white and comfortable issues are neither be it from all but inescapable poverty to disproportionate incarnation and extraction at the hands of our just us system to fighting and dying half a world away in wars for profit to being subject to civil liberties violations to holding together busted to hell homes to who's children's only hope is good public schools and certainly who has the least entries in the ever shrinking opportunity lottery.

Now the handwringers, dream deferers, and pony taunters have now flipped the script and using their seemingly newly discovered focus points as little more than a whip to flog party loyalty which is being used as a tool to defang opposition to the corporate/neocon/surveillance state agenda by framing such insanity as the price for gay rights, choice and to a lesser extent minority voting rights.
Obviously, a false and ultimately self defeating "choice" but a strongly pretended at one in some quarters anyway, if for no other reason to minimize all other concerns that might slow the roll of the global corporate domination or the funneling of wealth to the rich.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Wall Street pays better

And that is where most ex-politicians go when they leave office.

[WillTwain]

35. Yeah, but unions can offer workplace safety and sick pay. Let them know that.

Maybe they will reconsider.

Sarcasm.

[tularetom]

47. Some unions are more equal than others

Police unions receive very favorable treatment compared to other public unions when it comes to salaries, overtime, pensions, and benefits. In return they protect the legislators and executives from the consequences of their actions.

Most members of police unions support things like right to work laws and other anti union measures - for all unions besides their own. There's no such thing as solidarity for them.

It isn't in the public interest for public unions to close ranks around the bad actors among them. But they do. And in the case of police unions that often means defending bullies, bigots and sadists.

[WillTwain]

50. Great point. I get physically ill thinking about police unions.

There is too much wrong with everything they stand for. They support Walker in Wisconsin. The sick irony of them using socialism against the common good makes me gag.

[blackspade]

55. Exactly right.

Unions should be the backbone of the Democratic Party.

[WillTwain]

57. They used to be and life was good.

[Historic NY]

67. For the record Unions vote their own interests....

and that is not always Democrat. Day in and day out many public service unions support Republicans, even if its not in their best interest.

[WillTwain]

68. Understood - people are inherently selfish.

After financial security is taken care of they use selfish motives.

[Savannahmann]

69. Here be the rub.

Right now, the Democratic Party is suffering from multiple personality disorder. A majority of us want Hillary to be the nominee so she can win the election in a obviously delusional landslide and be the President who kicks the Republicans out of Washington and makes being a person who voted for republicans a hate crime. Or something.

But, as I've pointed out, Hillary can't win without the Unions unless she has record breaking support among the other demographic groups. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026296538

But the big thing is this. Unions are a group that the Party including the supporters here are taking for granted, and have been for some time. The people here, and in the Party are so accustomed to getting Union support in donations and volunteers that they just assume as soon as they open the doors to a campaign office, the Union will be behind them. I mean, the Republicans are awful signing NAFTA into law, and pushing hard for Fast Track on TPP and all of that. Unlike the Democratic Party that is really busy pushing for TPP and Fast Track.

So by ignoring Union threads, and thus ignoring the Unions, the Democratic Party faithful like us, can pretend that the future is just peachy keen and that Hillary is going to win a 49 state margin by popular accord. The election will be a confirmation, not a challenge.

When you point out that the Unions are not happy about the TPP, people won't even consider it.

Not only that but her ratings by unions are very high.
She will get union support... count on it.

It's a given. It is guaranteed. The sun will rise in the east in the morning no matter what we do. We can insult the sun all day long, and it will rise in the east the very next morning. Democrats can ignore, and take advantage of the Unions, and even pass treaties and legislation that eliminates a million jobs from their number, and the Unions will happily donate money, members will volunteer their time, and the will turn out in record numbers to vote for Democrats.

Because, the Union knows that being screwed by your friend is way better than being screwed by your enemy.

So why should anyone pay attention to the Unions. The Politico's in Washington give them lips service now and then, and that's all that's really needed. The Labor Day speech from someone who talks about the long history of the Unions fighting for the average worker. They'll sing look for that Union Label. Then once this block is checked, it's time to go back to ignoring the Unions, because everyone knows that they would never withhold their support. They love the Democratic Party because the Unions know that without the Democrats winning the elections that we'll get a Supreme Court Justice who will overturn Roe, or will affirm Citizens United, or will ban Gay Marriage. All of those topics of course are way more important to the Unions that jobs, which would be lost because of TPP as they were under NAFTA. The Unions know how important it is to support the Democrat because they know that the Republicans will never stop trying to destroy them. And it's way better to lose a million jobs because of the actions of a friend, than it is to lose a million jobs because of the actions of your enemy.

Besides, what are the Unions going to do? Ignore the Democrats as completely as the Democrats ignore the Unions?

[WillTwain]

71. Interesting take that almost nobody is thinking about.

This time it may be different, though, Unions are almost eliminated. They understand they will be gone if all they get is lip service from candidates like President Obama. Because of this, they say they are holding back endorsements for a long time. Richard Trumka has said Hillary is not automatically going to get unions support.

Do not be surprised, if Hillary does not really gain trust in secret conversations, when unions endorse Bernie. i may be wrong. A gut feeling tells me this time will be different - no automatic endorsement for any democrat. Obama really pissed them off and cut all trust.

[NM_Birder]

80. That's because unions,.... construction trade unions anyway are....

about monthly dues, and very little else.

Union apprenticeship, and training are still required, but a union trained carpenter is average at best these days, and I mean AT BEST they are average. I've been project manager in commercial/industrial general contracting for nearly 20 years, this trend has been steadily getting worse the whole time. The trade unions hire minimum wage people to picket several of our job sites on a regular basis and we've gotten so used to the "unfair wage signs" they roll out, I would miss them if they ever stopped, more than a few have tried to get hired, but as far as construction goes they are ignorant of everything but what benefits they want. What stops the union reps in their tracks every time they show up, is the fact that we pay above scale, and have fantastic benefit packages based on skill level.

i don't know about other unions, but if you still believe that illegal immigration only has an effect on agriculture and hotel cleaning you will always be curious as to why union memberships is falling across the board.

I have non-union tinners and electricians that would leave unionized guys crying in the dust, ....and a union carpenter is not much more than a wood shop graduate that can read a tape. the union guys are too pre-occupied with being sure they are not blinking one time than they are required to by law, and then only in between breaks. My guys commit, and for that commitment they are rewarded.

I still find it hilarious that the new carpenters union that took nearly TWO FRICKIN YEARS to build, was a concrete tilt-up built by the only union slower than the carpenters,....the concrete guys.

[WillTwain]

83. We have nothing in common. My experience is exactly the opposite.

First, the tiny monthly dues adds tens of thousands of dollars in wages and benefits to union AND non-union construction workers.

Second, The average union man or woman will work circles around most non-union workers. Union folks are career professionals. Many non-union are in and out because the wages suck and the working conditions are 19th century.

Do you pay "YOUR GUYS" (sounds like you own them unlike much more confident union men) more than union guys if they are rewarded. What a pile.

Scabs are a cancer to the working class.

[NM_Birder]

99. LOL,...I call them MY GUYS because WE

are all on the same team. MY GUYS are in the same boat as I am, i go down they go down, WE are all sailing with the same tiller. I can't do my job without them, and the same goes for them. Teamwork breeds the feeling that WE all are on the same team. the carpenters union ? breeds poorly skilled "ME" attitudes.

I hear what you said a lot, from an ever increasing pool of union guys that are waiting at the hall to be given a job, just before they ask how they can get on board with us. If a project is delayed, or there is a weather shut down etc, MY GUYS stack rocks at the yard for the same pay, I don't send them home, and for my loyalty to them they are fiercely loyal to me. I know I can count on them everyday, because they know they can count on me every day.

"scabs" what did you google the most cliche thing you could possibly say ? Not even the minimum wage paid protestors supplied BY THE UNIONS are that desperate to find something to say. Unions, at least the trade unions anyway, are a dying breed, and they are too self absorbed to understand why, and what it would take to bring back what unions USED to be about.

If you were right, the trade unions would not be belly flopping from coast to coast. I stand by what I said, a union carpenter today is nothing more than an old high school level wood shop guy, that can read a tape, and not much more.

Those "tiny union dues" are all that matter to union reps, not the quality just the quantity, and both of those are losing ground.

[WillTwain]

103. You blew it with the lame "team" crap.

Last edited Sat Apr 4, 2015, 12:52 PM - Edit history (2)

It is all about exploiting workers.

Scabs is as nice a term as I can come up with for ass-kissing, back-stabbing republicans.

This may be a bit complicated. You may not be a aware that building and maintaining unions is really difficult. Rich pricks are attacking from the top and cowardly little workers that do not have the guts to confront the powerful are attacking from the bottom.

Thank god for real men - the guys that will fight the good fight, not roll over and tremble.

[NM_Birder]

114. LOL, someday, hopefully you'll understand what a "team" means, it's not "a crap term" lol

But my guess is you are more of the "lets all bitch about what we were told how things work" kind of warrior.

Unions are failing, and failing BIG because they suck up the money at the top, and spit out poorly trained, useless complainers, disguised as trained tradesmen. Check collectors is a good description.

"fight the good fight", ok now I understand, ......you are still in school and think life really is the way your professors tells you it is.

"Scabs is as nice a term as I can come up with for ass-kissing, back-stabbing republicans." I assume that since you called me a LOL...a scab, ......you are also calling me an ass kissing back stabbing republican ? i take it back, you're no longer in school, you just didn't learn anything.

Take care you political cage fighter, fighting the good fight, ......... learn a little bit about where and why trade unions are sucking air. Your blind misunderstanding is good place to start.

[WillTwain]

117. The LOL thing is so trite. Get original. Scabs are conditioned by necessity to kiss-ass, back-stab

and bow to their "superiors." Been around plenty of scabs, self-loathing bastards. Worked with plenty of non-union turned union guys, too. They are so excited to get their rotten teeth fixed and have a few bucks left when the next paycheck arrives.

I knew a carpenter that worked scab in Florida. He said he did not make enough money to feed himself and buy tools needed on the job that the sleaze bag tightwad non-union company would not provide.

You just keep living in your Reaganomics-fantasy world. I hope you enjoy your pension when your worn out old body says no more. Oh, that is right, you have no guaranteed pension. You have a non-matching funds 401k that Wall Street gets to pillage every year until you cannot run like a typical non-union rabbit. Chase that carrot, I think you are gaining on it.

Oh, I cannot tell you how many job sites I have been on finishing up the jobs that non-union guys did not have the training or experience to get done.

A strong back and no self-respect will only take you so far.

Enjoy your 15 minute lunch breaks and unpaid overtime.

[NM_Birder]

194. ....... my 15 minute lunch breaks... really ?

Move past you pre-conceived notions based on your level of success. My 401? yeah its been incredible, better than anytime my whole life, but if you understood what incentives there are, for closing early on the kinds of projects we contract, I'm not sure you could sleep. I'm not paid what I am, to risk having someone else finish my project. If that was a risk, I would not be doing what I do, someone else would be doing it, that's how it works.

That group of "yeah they don't get it, and they'll get theirs" are a dime a dozen, ......the halls are FULL of them....aren't they? The carpenters union is not what it used to be, union training is a fucking bad joke in today's world, it isn't a shade of what it used to be.Why do you think trade union membership is tanking to near irrelevant levels? I've worked projects with union "carpenters", know what they are good at ? making damn sure they don't fart one second longer than mandated, minimal effort, maximum finger pointing, a very clear grasp of break time, and a severe lack of desire to do anything but the absolute minimum required to satisfy being called a "carpenter". They have no commitment to the company, they more or less rent a position, and are given another one when one runs it's course. Except when it comes to complaining, then union carpenters, they shine like the sun. Framers are not carpenters, and the union can barely produce framers anymore.

"Jim Bob Remodeling & Construction" is not what we do. My guys are on the same page as me, because they know I came from where they are, I give them my full confidence, because I HAVE full confidence that when I, LOL LOL stop chasing my carrot, my office will belong to one of them. I don't want anyone representing us, that doesn't have the desire to have more than they do, we don't........ supply "workers" on a job site, we orchestrate project success, and that takes strong willed, desire filled, demanding teamwork, not the "were is my guaranteed pension" clock watchers.
Good luck,..... they still have new pool tables at the hall ?

[WillTwain]

196. First Mr. Pre-conceived, If you have more money than me you would not be working - I retired early.

Second, your lame non-matching fund 401k does not even come close to what unions offer. And we will see how it looks after your heroes, the banksters, crash the markets, again. I will take the union guaranteed pension every time.

You are a cliche of the ugly 'Merican. You got your Dodge Ram 3500, got your Chris Kyle t-shirt, got your No-bama sticker on your monster truck. Listen to ma country music, blah,blah,blah.

I can imagine after your 15 minute lunch break with "Team-Birder" is done and you walk out of the break room, your "guys" look at each other and say "what a dick."

I have been there. You guys are all laughed at as wormy kiss-asses - just a low-end wolf of Wall Street. If you are all you think you are, you would be having lunch in a Manhattan cafe not pissing in a satellite.

Most non-union construction worker are a hacks. Many are between sentences and need to find a job so their probation officers will stay off their backs.You guys get the outhouse remodeling jobs, union guys build everything with electricity and running water.

You cannot fool me. I have dealt with too many of you angry know-nothings know-it-alls. All show and no go.

[NM_Birder]

198. rah rah rah,

Hope your pension is enough to give you the retirement you think about. Let go of the 401k baloney, anybody that has financial goals understands that 401k's are basically a bonus at retirement, it's not actually ever going to fund a retirement. not the one I want anyway.

you watch too much TV and/or internet news, let go of what the news tells you. you seem to only speak in sound bite blurbs, that are all the rage in political advertisements and bitter based gossip circles.

Why do you keep referring to me as "low end wolf of wall street" ? If you can only relate to movie star characters, I would rather be Forrest Gump.

Unions are failing, why do you think that is ? I've clearly described why I think they are failing. Maybe I should ask it this way, do you think the near irrelevant number of trade union membership is a lie ? Do you think trade union membership is higher today than is was ......pick whichever year in the past........? why mr experience do you think that is ?

you are way to preoccupied with lunch breaks, and gossip,...... yeah you are defiantly a union guy.

[WillTwain]

201. Read comment 200, you must stop your silly assumptions and trite rebuttals.

You have a handful of canned insults that are so predictable. Do you do your in-depth research at the V.F.W.? You make Hannity look like Socrates.

[WillTwain]

202. Every stereotype you have about me has been wrong, every one. How do you feel about that?

I am self-made, investor class, retired early, hard working and have destroyed all your sillyunion cliches. What do you have to say now? Guys like you try so hard to prove you are somebody, ironically nobody wants to be you.

[ND-Dem]

138. My guess is not only are you not a worker; you're also not a democrat.

I've worked with immigrants from Mexico, and they're the last people to believe that they and the bosses are on the same "team".

It's nonsense. I guess it makes you feel better to believe it.

[NM_Birder]

180. ? think you skipped a track there timmy,

didn't realize my comments had anything to do with you having "worked with immigrants"...your words.
Since you are the official spokesman for as you say "immigrants from Mexico" because you ......supposedly...... "worked with them" what else is on their minds ?

people who have little comprehension, rarely believe anything, they are the ones usually destined to look thru the windows of life complaining nobody else gets it.

I think you've got some race issues, compounded with a sprinkle of "I deserve more because I'm me" jealousy. Not uncommon, I'm fairly young for what I've accomplished, I'm a good 8 or so years younger than most. Doubt and disbelief are the hallmarks of some who can't seem to get the ball rolling for themselves, that is a rough one to get over, see it all the time.
good luck.

[ND-Dem]

181. i see your type all the time as well. nasty.

[WillTwain]

182. Low end Wolf of Wall Street

normally, heartless souls are doing much better than working on a construction site. Then again, the Wall Street guys are mean and smart. You are just mean.

Guess what climber, after unions are gone there will be nothing holding wages up. Your wages will be cut in half in a hurry. Then contractors will be looking to cut costs more and there will be nothing between you and the minimum wage. Based on what? Look at all the right-to-work states. I know these guys. They say it all the time. I could not afford to feed myself so I moved to a prevailing wage pro-Union state. And, By the way, minimum wage is socialism Mister, "I did it on my own." Phony.

You have a lot to learn youngster. Experience teaches me you are one that won't.

[NM_Birder]

197. appreciate the "youngster" comment,

And it's true,...... at 46, I am certainly one of the "youngsters", .....at what I do, I've been extremely fortunate, but wasn't all luck. I don't take that as an insult, it's a compliment, and I mean that.

Thanks for the advice pops, but I'll keep on the path I'm on. "Feeding myself", has not been a concern since I was in school. I'm well past concern where my next rent check is coming from too, that was a shitty existence and I wanted more than that. Nobody gave me what I have, I earned it, I am where I am because I didn't settle for what experience taught others. You know what I'm saying, at nearly 50 I'm sure you have seen guys that just seem to want more. I assume you are near 50 or over, if you call me at 46 "youngster". I didn't spend, .......at least not all my younger years anyway, ......funding the local bars every week-end to console each other about what we didn't have. The people who had what I wanted, weren't looking for those guys, I took my lessons from the guys who had what I wanted. I went past what was expected and haven't looked back since.

Hopefully you are not offended by me calling you "pops". It's also meant as a compliment, the guys that are nearing 50 are usually seasoned and salty enough to be the kind of guys with vinegar I respect. You've been union for a long time I assume ? Tell me why you think the union is losing members, and are unable to refill the batting cages ?

[WillTwain]

200. First, I thought you were much younger judging by your comments saying how quick you made it.

We are in the same age group. I grew up tough, too. Nothing was ever easy. I paid my own way through college. Prior to that, I worked my way through trade school - twice -no handouts for me. I left home with $50 in my tattered blue jeans, wearing a frayed t-shirt. Still, I invested, bought property and used sweat equity to to increase value and eventually sold for good profit. I worked my ass off.

Without a good union scale, the extra money I used to crawl out of the hole i came from would not have existed. I am so grateful for what the union has done for me and hundreds of friends and family members. It is a ladder out of a hard generational existence. Thank you brothers and sisters that fought for me.

Regarding dying unions, there is a lot involved. Our trade policies have been damaging for twenty years. Countries manipulate their dollar values which make trade unfair. Also, Republicans have given tax incentives for companies to leave the country - seriously. Greed is good has swept the nation, this has not helped either. Also, Reagan launched an attack on unions that has seen been devastating, as you can see in its culmination in Wisconsin. By the way, The average right-to work state employee makes about 30 percent less than pro-union state - just the truth. Watch Wisconsin it is imploding - worst job creation in the country - seriously.

The government has swung hard to the right and is ignoring prevailing wage laws which leads to more non-union hiring. Of course, Republicans have fired millions of government and teachers. Another big problem, the austerity move has lead to a crumbling infrastructure. In the past, huge government projects were almost all union. This represents millions of jobs lost. It should be pointed out that all this has added up to a blown out middle-class and more wealth bubbling to the top.

Finally, and this is really incredible. Regular working class Americans are against unions. Fifty years ago, it was hard to find workers that did not want to be in a union. Europeans would never let go of their unions. They have had a different history than 'merica and have a grasp on reality.

in summary, there are many reasons why unions are declining. An all out attack on unions by the Republican elite has been extremely successful. Wages have not risen in 40 years and nearly all new wealth goes to the already filthy rich. The death of unions is a big reason why.

I am serious, If unions went away, you would not be driving a monster truck, you would be living in one.

[NM_Birder]

207. no worries, I can't remember if I mentioned my age before or not,

Turn the clock back 20 some odd years, and trade unions were different story, The guys I apprenticed under were not "carpenters" of today. Just short of being a biochemist, I'm not sure there isn't anything they couldn't reason out and make work, I loved working with them, and learned a lot more than skills. the "carpenters" of today are not the same, and the old salty guys are few and far between.

Construction can be a hard life, there are lots of solid field guys that skim the surface of financial success and disaster on a regular basis, the vast majority just exist between the peaks and valleys of a paycheck. I saw that, hell I lived it for a while, it sucked. the last journeymen I apprenticed under was one of the most driving forces that pushed my path, in the early nineties he saw the sun setting on his ability to stay in the field, but at that time that was about all he had left, modern project management was coming of age and he didn't have even the entry level tech skills to make even a modest step up, it's a shame, and the nineties were in a lot of ways the begining of the end to the best the union produced .

I learned a lot from some of those guys,.... mostly that I wanted to BE them, but at the same time I wanted more. Mid twenties and able to be accepted into the verteran circle was more of a drug than than I've ever had. Most won't understand, but acceptance into that group were some of the proudest moments I've ever had. I was 15 -20 years younger than some of them, that stands out,... and the opinion they passed on about me was better than any resume anyone on earth can ever hope to have. I owe a lot to some of those guys, it was thier opinion that got my toes in the door with the firm I work now. I have the education thanks to me, I have the skills thanks to training, but I have the right attitude thanks to them, I was very fortunate. I was prepared right, in the right place, and at the right time, and now at 46, I STILL am one of the younger PM's that manage what I do.Now after too many years piloting a desk, I doubt very seriously I could go back to the field and compete on any competent level, I know that, and my guys know that, I need them and they need me. people here are offended by the word team, it's a shame. I'm no therapist, I'm not here to provide life counseling and my guys know not to mistake my kindness for weakness. But I rely on them, they rely on me, I'm not here to give excuses and I don't accept them either. I've been with the same firm for enough years to feel like I've grown up here, it's like my home, and the people I work with are as close as family.

My disgust with the modern "carpenters union", is akin to seeing the ignorance of today's "give it to me now" attitude I see in society in general. What passes for a "carpenter" or tradesmen today wouldn't be allowed to police trash with the guys I grew up with. It's embarrasing. You can shake a man's hand and tell if he knows what he is, ...or if he is about to tell you what he is....there is a difference.

I am very close to what I wanted,..... I have some very rewarding memories, ...some of them in some of the worst times, some in the best of times. I have a financially secure position that if I wanted to retire I probably could, but am in the process of stepping up again and can't resist the opportunities. I've been able to provide a comfortable home on a dreamlike piece of property for my girlfriend/wife of 13 years, not by chance,.... she is similar minded so the toys and activities I like, she also likes. It's more erotic than I can explain to come home and see the boat hitched up and she's throwing stuff in the truck. (but no, not a 3500, and certainly not a dodge)

What I've seen, .....is that the union lost focus on what it's reason for being was, ...what it produced became secondary to how many it could produce. politicians used and abused the union, and the unions begged for more. Now at this point WHO is going to save the unions ? nobody, because the are just a political tool, not an instrument for the worker. Maybe I am a little harsh toward the union, ... it's rooted in the dissapointment and disgust in what passes for a union trained guy today. Standards matter, standards are what affords me the life I have, and union guys by and large today are below minimum standard. Unfair to say every single one, but more than is acceptable.

The union has only itself to blame for the ruin it's headed for, it's better at pointing fingers at fault than it is taking care of it's business.

Just couldn't resist the living in my monster truck comment eh ? just like the union, dissapointing but not surprising. The guys that depend on the union, belong in the union. Some projects are earmarked as "union only", that is your "carrot", just enough work to keep them voting, because without earmarked scoops of money, the union could never compete in today's world. A slippery political hand guiding the destiny of unions right into a shallow grave. It should make EVERYONE angry and dissapointed in what they have done to themselves.

[WillTwain]

209. You sound satisfied. I am happy for you.

I agree that the quality of young workers cannot carry the water for generations that preceded them (like that carry the water reference, that is pure construction lingo, apprentices literally carried journeymen's water 50 years ago). My experience tells me it is a societal issue. Millenials have less humility and higher expectations of themselves. I am referring to self-image not financial success. They generally struggle embracing the self-identity of "grunt." There is something about being from an older generation that makes sticking your face into the wind and denying the physical abuses that are endured every day, every hour seem natural. The older guys than me were tougher than my generation. They can probably say that about the generation before them,too. We, Americans, are growing soft. It was always disheartening to see a 20-something leaning on a shovel while some arthritic 45 year-old, coming off of joint surgery was down in the whole tossing dirt and grunting with every toss.

Regarding "lazy" union workers, that is a right-wing bumper sticker, nothing more. I have been out of the trades for some time, but still maintain friendships. A buddy of mine (union) has had a bitch of a time working steady in the union - lots of tramping. He has resorted to working non-union a few times to keep it together. So, anecdotally through his experience working for both sides, He insists union guys work way, let me change that to WAY harder than non-union workers. The reason is the competitive landscape forces the result. Considering the enormous difference in total compensation - sometimes nearly double - the only way to compete is to work harder and smarter.

In fact, He has said, "If it was not for the money, he would quit and work non-union because you do not beat yourself up as much." Generally, this guy is an electrician, the skill level is much higher, too. This is simply the nature if the work: industrial, commercial, controls, power plants, drilling, towers, etc., vs. residential and small retail remodeling. This is changing but still reality.

Another thing to ponder, unions produced its best young men when they dominated the market. Why? There was more time in the day for training and mentoring. It is what you say made you what you are - great mentors. Today, with the assault on unions by republicans that I wrote of in a previous comment, there is no time for mentoring. Apprentices are thrown to the wolves, sink or swim. This is a fatal flaw not only for the trades but across the American worker's landscape. We live in the most capitalistic country on earth and are paying an awful, dreadful price for it. Everything is so bottom line driven today that ancient skills and tricks are not being passed down. This is yet another reason why the unions of old had it all figured out. That approach made for better men in more ways than can be imagined -self confidence, mutual respect, friendships, and much more was gained in the humanities department. The apprenticeship system came from a long tested history in Europe - hundreds of years. This is sorely missed in all occupations. Work for most Americans is a 40 hour a week mosh pit.

Finally, unions made the middle-class. Period. As they die, so does the middle-class. I was serious about the living in your truck comment. i know non-union guys that are 35 that look 65 - no teeth, super glue holding cuts together, grey skinned and worn down, living in tents and trucks, eating road food because they cannot afford to pay the rent and own a stove. I have seen the difference between union and non-union in my life. It is not a pretty comparison. You may be an exception, but it is always smarter to look at the rule. The rule: One day we will all lament the death of unions.

Good luck.

[NM_Birder]

212. Nice to see we will part ways without hating each others guts.

I never thought I would be old enough to say, "it wasn't like that when I was a kid", but I am,....... and it's not.
I enjoyed then, and still do, proving myself. I like proving myself TO myself, and I like proving myself to those around me. The 20 year old somethings of today seem to embrace the notion that they are owed things, "what do I get", instead of "what can I earn". I attribute that to a growing population of kids...... raising kids.

I agree every generation is getting softer than the previous. I liked your "sticking your face in the wind and denying the the physical abuse" ....... it makes me feel younger again. The thirst to prove myself, is as strong as ever, even if I'm making the little Ahhhh noises every now and then when I get up. Some of the worst of times, hold some of my best memories.

My girlfriend has been a member here for a long time, lounge mostly, she's not an arguer, I joined and have had mixed experiences, some if not most argumentative ones are probably my fault. my name NM_Birder ? she is a bird watcher, a fanatic, obsessed bird watcher, I'm an avid hunter and obsessed fisherman, I'm a birder but not a watcher, inside joke play on words. I see a lot of similarity in the bird watching crowd and DU, there is a desire to be sure the other person knows, that you know more than them. She is still surprised I haven't been kicked out, sometimes I am too. I assumed this was a discussion website, but really it isn't, the majority of it seems to be "I'm going to complain and show the hypocrisy of the ***** republicans, but don't dare point out the hypocrisy of Democrats, because if you do........ you're just a ******* republican", and a significant amount of "poor me, someone console me". I've said several times before, I may just not be cut for this, it's alright not everything is for everybody.

The union thing struck a nerve, and a disappointment that is still very alive in me. Probably jumped a bit too soon, and a bit to severe. I'm not awash in the fact that I have been extremely fortunate, I know I have been, and there is a lot of truth to the fact that my distant past experience with the union, especially the salty old bastards forged from the union were instrumental in a large part of that fortunate experience. If I had kids, I would describe it as a son that was everything he ever wanted to be, was the pride of my life, and on his track for the success he desired,............ and then pissed it all away at the request of someone else, for someone else's gain, and then blamed me for his bad choices. That's what politics have done to the union, it's dying if not already dead, and more often than not it's those that helped kill it telling me it's my fault. like I said, I probably jumped a bit quick.

I know the vast majority of those in the construction trade are struggling, it can be a tough road even in the best of times and regardless what the news says, this ain't the best of times. I was headed straight down that road for thankfully a short time. You can't deny that a significant number of guys make poor choices, over and over and over again, and are miserably satisfied with living in the "come this Friday" mindset. I think there are more today than there were then, and it's getting worse.

I am satisfied,... I am nearing the point where I can be honest with myself and admit that "I've made it", I am proud of what I've accomplished, and I'm nearing the time when I will take more time to enjoy the choices I've made. One regret will likely be the choice to never have kids, but I have nephews on my side and a niece on her side to spoil and corrupt

you want to save the union ? Don't blame the people who cut a different path and succeed at doing so, I'm allowed, I do not regret my career choices, and I would do it the same all over again, the same way. Blame the "cancer" on unions on people that are currently telling you they are fighting for the unions, but are only using a captive audience for a political agenda.

Might have to break out the good scotch,...... and there would likely be some pretty tense moments where our ladies abandon our foolishness, but I'll bet we could share stories out by the fire pit, and come away laughing more than yelling.

Take Care.

[WillTwain]

213. I am sure we have much in common - a couple of scrappy self-made dudes.

I have had trouble on DU, too. I am a true economic lefty from the Bernie Sanders, FDR mold. I confess that I am a Democratic Socialist - a heretic destined for hell I am sure. DU is home base for President Obama and Hillary Clinton - mainstream, economically right-leaning democrats. They are far too trickle-down for me. Although I am a short-timer at DU, by my estimate, I have pissed off 70 percent of DUers. Republicans hate me, most Democrats hate me and that convinces me I am in a good spot.

Regarding unions: They have flaws but I would hate be in a world without them - circa 1900 America.

I tip my Deschutes Beer to your scotch.

Peace

[ND-Dem]

137. "team" yeah, right.

[WillTwain]

223. It is like one of those Real Estate billboards, "Team Greenspan Is On Your Side."

[haele]

97. Must be a regional issue. Here, it's the opposite.

Even though we aren't a right to work state. See, the unions often have to compete with undocumented labor, which can be of very high quality for low cost if you're a developer with an emergency repair job over the weekend and has a friend knows a friend who can get a bunch of reliable "friends" to do some day labor for you; or, as our complex plumber Mario says - "you go down to Lowes or Home Depot and find the Amigo who has all his tools ready".
I've worked on site construction in the past as an electrician, and know people who still do the work. Most union carpenters, plumbers, electricians, HVAC, masons, etc are dedicated and do very good work up to the California Code, or they lose their licenses, and union protections - especially the safety protections that the unions here require on site.
Now, there are open shop sites where there are only one or two union members as leads and site QA, and a crap-load of day labor to save money, and I've noticed that those developments tend to have a little more delta in the level of quality, depending on the day or the stage. They may work more quickly than a union shop (only by a little - perhaps weeks; certainly no more than a month), but there's usually a lot more injury and a lot more safety violations, also.

But don't get me started on what I saw going on in Florida when I was sent down there to work for a bit. Didn't matter if the worker was union or not, they were uniformly beat down and pretty near all of them started work looking at the clock. And the injuries and potential for fatalities- whoever said police have a dangerous job never worked construction.

I'm glad you pay your guys good pay for their work. However, in my experience, that's very rare in a non-union construction company; most of the owners of the smaller companies run them like a personal ATM and always seem to be "too short" to even pay union scale after a while and use a lot of day labor to make up for the lack of skilled workforce, and the larger guys like to pretend they're construction moguls and run their companies like small kingdoms.
And when I needed riggers, support welders, additional electricians, or other light construction work, I always found the union workers to be a better value overall, more knowledgeable about the work environment itself, and needed less supervision than the cheaper day labor workers.
Of course, pretty much all my work has been with government contracts, so again, YMMV.

Haele

[WillTwain]

104. He is a corporate shill.

[NM_Birder]

113. I think you just heard that word enough to convince yourself you understand what it is.

Do you actually know what it is ? I'll wait while you Wiki it.

I assume you belong to a construction trade union ? If you do, I hope you are able to raise the bar for your "brothers", before the union falls into complete irrelevance. it's well on it's way.

And those of us that moved past them, are better for it.

[NM_Birder]

112. Probably is a regional thing to an extent.

We might just be in different construction markets, I think. But the trend is common all over the country, otherwise the Unions would not be losing membership, and would not be so obviously desperate to turn guys against thier employers, in favor of the union. What really, is the benefit of being a unionized carpenter ? Shit from what I see it ain't the training, it ain't the ability to work steadily, and it ain't the ability to choose what you want to do. "Go here and do this, for that long", "and save some cash because you won't be employed for the whole project". " I'm sure another one will come along soon". I went a different way, and it paid off.

I see a home depot receipt show up on an expense report, there had better be a damn good reason for it. That and "Lowes" are not the level we play at, we employ an entire division to be sure what my guys need is delivered to the sites. That could be the disconnect with other people, I have high dollar guys performing at a high skill level, ......runners catch on, they anticipate, they grow, and they advance, or they stomp around and complain about not being given enough slack until the super has had enough and tells them to go join the union. I will be the first to admit, we don't run a daycare, there are no group hugs to motivate. I expect A LOT, I expect results, and if I don't get results I get someone who will give me what I expect. It can be a hard experience, it's not social hour, if people don't perform how they are required to, there are a wide range of consequences. people can be seriously injured, killed...... in some cases,..... the supers are responsible for lives, costs, quality and progress ......... these are top level guys, and they train thier 2nd hand guys, and so forth and so forth. I treat my guys like family, because they ARE family. I don't have to wait and see what the union taught them, when a seasoned guy comes to the office and says, "this ones ready to bump up" i know i have a keeper, and he has the training i know he has to have to be what I need him to be. union guys are a roll of the dice, and typically in my past experience, attitude was the first thing shown instead of skill. i don't have room for guys that are adept at telling what they know, but then are marginally capable of performing, and virtually unable to supervise and direct a large operation.

We build all over the country, I was nomadic for a long time with the company, and believe it or not have an old journeyman card stuffed in a drawer somewhere. Shit the carpenters union used to send me on a 3-4 day vacation, nearly every year. But that was in the past, the union is NOT what it used to be. I agree, there are a LARGE number of people who have what THEY call "construction companies", but really are little more than low bid job thieves that give away a job, steal the profit and close down, all to soon, only to pop back up like fucking mold with a new name. i am thankful, those are a rare problem in the arena I work. I don't price compete much anymore thankfully,...... the larger the risk, the more massive the responsibility, the less some clients are willing to gamble on the outcome. The sharp end of THAT stick is , those are not the clients that accept excuses readily, and one good belly flop can end the relationship.

Listening to the news blather about how construction is booming blah blah blah, doesn't tell the flip side to that. Building construction costs are constantly going up, margins are razor thin, loyal, skilled guys are worth every penny. Employing day labor guys is not only an unforgivable waste of money and time, The clients we build for are not paying premium prices for a body number showing.

LANL and Cannon both had Design build projects that were both the high watermark of my government projects portfolio, but that was years ago. it was also back before I lost confidence in unionized check collectors. I've worked at SNL, LANL and Cannon, on a variety of construction projects, from hangars, RD facilities, "storage" etc. i don't miss it, and my hair stopped going grey as soon as i left it.

[hifiguy]

85. The Turd Way views unions with pure disdain.

It came as a part of the deal selling the party to the banksters and the MIC. Thanks Bill and Hil.

[WillTwain]

88. Barack is no slacker, either.

It has been half a century, since a president actually cared. In a wa, it is amazing things are not worse. it probably proves how great FDR was. What the New deal built in forty years has taken another forty years to destroy.

[hifiguy]

91. Nope. All the campaign promises to labor

vanished on 1/20/2009 never to be seen or heard from again.

LBJ was probably the last president who gave a damn about labor.

[WillTwain]

96. 50 frickin' years

What does it take? The middle class is crashing all around people, unions are at ten percent vs. 33 percent in the fifties and people still think unions suck. The correlation is screaming at people.

[Dont call me Shirley]

94. The Reich-Wing has done such an assbusting job at smearing the unions over the past 35 years,

it may be battle fatigue. Or in our subconscious minds, the reich-wing has stamped their union hating ideas.

[WillTwain]

98. Battle-fatigue is real.

They are relentless - like snapping turtles. You can cut there head off and they keep biting at you.

[Dont call me Shirley]

101. Well the gop has conducted a relentless war on unions. Collective PTSD?

[ND-Dem]

139. not just the gop, sad but true.

[Dont call me Shirley]

143. Corporate America

[SickOfTheOnePct]

108. I've never worked in a job that had a union

but it seems to me that unions have to do a better job of selling employees on why it's important to be in the union.

If more employees saw value in joining a union, right-to-work laws would be irrelevant.

[WillTwain]

109. You are missing out. No question you would like your job more for many reasons if you had a union.

People are fooled.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

110. Could be

I've just never worked anywhere that had a union. I've only had three real jobs...Publix has a teen/early 20s, the military and federal government.

At the time, Publix paid better than the union stores, not sure if that's still the case.

[WillTwain]

111. The total package is never better in non-union places.

You need to add in all the benefits. If an industry has both union and non-union, there is no competition. Rarely, non-union will try to match "on the check" pay, but it is only a game. Check out vacation time, healthcare and pension or 401k contributions - no comparison.

Never better for scabs.

[ND-Dem]

140. Publix is employee-owned.

[WillTwain]

142. To good to be true. There had to be a reason.

[ND-Dem]

144. well, that doesn't always mean much, but it probably has something to do with their ability to pay

higher than average wages.

[alarimer]

115. For the first time in my life, I will be an actual union member at my new job.

I have always been a state employee (well, except when I was federal, but anyway) and all of my permanent jobs have been in southern states, where even to speak of unions was a severe no-no. There was always an association (a lobbying group, essentially) that did work to put state employees on the legislative agenda, but no union rep.

Now I am moving to Maryland and (for now at least, given that the governor is GOP, although I do not know how bad he is yet), where there is a union, even for us white-collar types.

I think the primary purpose of a union is collective bargaining for whatever level of job you are talking about, because people have a much stronger negotiating position in groups than alone.

Most of the people who abhor unions have benefited greatly from them: 40-hour workweeks (yeah, I know, what are those?), health insurance benefits, vacation, etc. They are essentially free riders on the system, which will eventually break down if not enough people are members of unions.

The people who would benefit the most are the people at the bottom end, but the bosses make it extremely difficult.

[WillTwain]

116. Congratulations

Keep up the good fight.

Vote progressive.

[Jakes Progress]

118. Too many are embarrassed to admit

that they really have bought the koch lies, that they agree with republicans, that they have been duped. It's easier to just go with the sexy stuff and not have to face your lack of thought.

[WillTwain]

119. Yes sir,

They are proud and stubborn which usually ends in dumb and exploited. They have been telling themselves the same shit so long they believe it. Think about a fifty year old guy that has been arguing that dumb Reagan stuff for 30 years. Is he ever going to show up for Christmas and admit to his brother-in-law, "I am wrong, you have been right for 30 years."

Stubbornness is a permanent affliction.

[Dustlawyer]

120. Without an opposition, employers will do what they

have done (Walmart, fast food etc). Unions are the Ying to the Employers Yang!
The current refinery strikes are mainly over Health and Safety because these plants are cutting corners to make even higher profits.
If we don't start getting active and standing up to them we will all be wage slaves like the third world where our jobs have been going.

[WillTwain]

121. Unions are declining along with workers-rights, wages and respect.

Today, people let business decide what they want to give employers. Nobody should be surprised it is usually a cut.

It should be a contract that both parties have a stake in, not a mandate from a money grubbing corporation.

Pretty basic.

[mike_c]

154. totally agree....

I serve on the executive board of my Central Labor Council, and am an officer and activist in my union. A common topic of discussion in my own union and on the CLC is "why do dems count on our support, but offer labor so little in return?" Being the lessor evil will only get you creds until someone who really works for labor comes along. I'm talking to you, Bernie....

[F4lconF16]

160. Kick and rec again!

Sorry I didn't see this earlier! Unions are the building blocks of socialism in the finest tradition of Marx and Engels. I support them with everything I've got (though maybe not police unions, because the police are literally a tool for the elite and are not working class and are certainly opposed to the working class). Excellent post, and thank you for reminding us of it.

[Major Hogwash]

164. Unions don't require loyalty to any political party to join them.

They don't care if the member is a Democrat, a Republican, a Green, a Libertarian, or an agnostic who doesn't vote.

So, I don't think it as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

[still_one]

170. Also, a sad fact is many in labor actually voted for Reagan, which sure wasn't in their best

interests.

"In 1984 Reagan confirmed his support by winning nearly 60% of the popular vote and carried 49 of the 50 states. The Reagan Democrats were Democrats before the Reagan years, and afterwards, but who voted for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984 (and for George H. W. Bush in 1988), producing their landslide victories. They were mostly white, socially conservative blue-collar workers, who lived in the Northeast, and were attracted to Reagan's social conservatism on issues such as abortion, and to his hawkish foreign policy."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_coalition

[WillTwain]

188. Guns, too. Reagan Democrats are the most confused manipulated group in American politics.

[still_one]

199. Actually, labor went back the Democrats after Reagan. However you are right about manipulation

but they were not the best nly demographic

[still_one]

169. Actually many union members left the Democratic party to vote for reagan. They were upset with

Carter because of his deregulation of the airlines.

Ironically, the support they gave to reagan which helped propel him to the WH was the beginning of the republican plan to destroy the unions, and it has been deteriorating ever since.

As far as Wisconsin is concerned, Walker never hid what he was going to do to unions, yet he still won three elections in that state

That is not the Democrats fault. Hell, Wisconsin wouldn't re-elect Russ Feingold, and labor couldn't find a better friend then Feingold

It may not be the best reason, but compared to the republicans, Democrats are far more sensitive and labor than the republicans will ever be.

[Lee-Lee]

171. Remember all the bad stuff you have heard from NC lately? Well there is a strong connection...

In the 1950's NC passed laws forbidding any state or municipal worker from having a collective bargaining contract.

It was Dems that did it (old school Dixiecrats, but still) and Dems who refused to change that when they still had full majorities as recent as 4 years ago.

No municipal or state employee unions to to fund raise, do phone banks, educate voters, GOTV.

And what do we have now?

[lovemydog]

172. k & r

[sendero]

173. That ship has sailed..

.... it is now somewhere between rigor mortis and a rotting corpse. So few people are members of unions, critical mass has been lost.

The time to get panicy about unions would have been, oh say 1982.

[WillTwain]

187. Americans do not worry until the water is up to their noses.

[sendero]

189. I'd love to see...

.... a resurgence in unions but I don't see it happening thanks mostly to globalization.

[WillTwain]

191. Germany

[Enthusiast]

175. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[WillTwain]

224. Love the enthusiasm and the peace sign

[RedstDem]

176. democratic politicians could give a crap about unions

And after they started that shit in the 80's I couldn't give two shits for them. A pox on both their houses.

If one comes along that supports us, I support them.
Its all I know to do with these rats.

[WillTwain]

186. Trumka should tell them to go to hell. Then they would be scrambling.

Unions are still big money and have Tens of thousands boots on the ground. Democrats would have a tough time winning elections without union support.

Come on Trumka, flex those muscles.

[Liberalynn]

177. K&R

[Bettie]

208. No apathy or disdain for unions here

I am a product of generations of union families.

I'm at home with kids at this point in my life, but I believe in unions and the need for them.

In my local Dem party (county) there is strong support for unions.

Sadly, at the national level, there seems to be significantly less support.

The problem isn't rank and file Dems, the problem is those who are in charge of the party. Too many of them are, unfortunately, "management" now.

[WillTwain]

210. Nearly everybody is a product of unions. Many do not want to face it.

The heads of the party hate unions. There is support among the rank, but within the rank there are many who would not give a moment to help labor.

[AgingAmerican]

218. The fate of the middle class

...lies in the balance.

Every country on earth with a large middle class has strong labor unions. It's that simple.

[WillTwain]

219. Pure and simple truth

the fate of the middle-class lies in the balance. Nothing more needs to be said.

[JDPriestly]

226. Excellent post!