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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"All women are selfish by nature" claims ‘moderate’ imam...
Last edited Mon Mar 30, 2015, 08:30 AM - Edit history (1)
http://www.france24.com/en/20150329-moderate-imam-who-claims-all-women-are-selfish-islam-france-montpellier-mohamed-khattabi/An imam in France has claimed in a sermon that selfishness is part of the nature of women, comments that have shocked all the more because of his reputation as a progressive influence on Islam in the country.
No matter how much good you bestow upon a woman, she will deny it. Her selfishness drives her to deny it. These were the words of Imam Mohamed Khattabi, delivered during a Friday sermon at the Aicha Mosque in Montpellier, southern France, on March 6, two days before International Womens Day.
Standing high in the mosques minbar (pulpit), Khattabi continued: This holds true for all women, whether Western, Arab, Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. This is the nature of women.
If a woman overcomes her nature and acknowledges (the truth) Allah grants her a higher place in paradise. But if she succumbs to her nature, and refuses to acknowledge the man's rights or rather, the goodness that man bestows upon her she is destined to go to (hell)
________________________
'Moderate', mon cul (my ass). Damn, if this guy can be qualified as moderate, the future for 'entente' between religions in France looks to be in trouble.
GCP
(8,166 posts)Thus selfishly driving men into an uncontrollable lust.
No need to do the sarcasm emoticon is there?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)The lads who don't have any social graces sometimes will blame the woman for their own failings--it not only doesn't work the first time they roll it out, it doesn't get any better with angry repetition, either!!
Who knew that "Khattabi" was arabic for "Loser!"
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)(Not getting any... )
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)They are so un-selfish that women have to cover up their bodies, otherwise those un-selfish men would be unable to control their selfish desires.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)reflects a lot of the misogynistic crap you see coming from the fundamentalist imam nut-jobs on the Web.
I suspect the French authorities are revising his qualification as 'moderate' on their terror watch list.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 30, 2015, 08:49 AM - Edit history (2)
a country that's very much on edge right now (post-Charlie Hebdo).
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I am left shaking my head as to what the solution for all this is.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)n/t
cali
(114,904 posts)liberal N proud
(60,344 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)over-the-top remarks as we are.
The problem is this guy's influence and reach in a country that's very much on edge right now (post Charlie Hebdo).'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016118735#post2
antigone382
(3,682 posts)My church had divorced members, etc. Compared to Eric Robert Rudolph, or even Pat Robertson, that church was moderate.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)on a parallel thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016118735#post2
"Yes, many muslims would be as shocked by these over-the-top remarks as we are.
The problem is this guy's influence and reach in a country that's very much on edge right now (post Charlie Hebdo)."
Go off half cocked much?
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)laughable to sit imams in the same room with many fine Christian pastors/priests and some rabbis to see how many ways they could collectively find to justify these "submission" doctrines. I am so done with this type of religiosity.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)upstanding 'spiritual' leaders of all stripes, sitting at a round table collectively expressing their hatred and fear of women.
Fundamentalist X-ians, ultra-orthodox Jews, whatever...
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Yes, there are pastors and rabbis who mirror this guy's "philosophy", but there are lots and lots of past pastors and rabbis who don't. There are lots of Christian and Jewish women clergy. There are large numbers of Christians and Jews who don't espouse anything like women having to be submissive to men. That doesn't hold true within Islam.
That's why "they're all the same" is bullshit false equivalency.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)and acquiesce while these teachings flourish. It doesn't take active participation to create the dynamics that make this possible. It takes a lot of good people willing to look aside.
cali
(114,904 posts)However you slice and dice it, there are large numbers of liberal Christians and Jews. There is not a corresponding, flourishing movement within Islam. And nowhere within "Christian nations" are people arrested and punished for apostasy. And sorry, but that's a significant difference.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)Her family runs a chain of schools in the region. In early 2009, when she was 1112, Yousafzai wrote a blog under a pseudonym for the BBC detailing her life under Taliban occupation, their attempts to take control of the valley, and her views on promoting education for girls in the Swat Valley. The following summer, journalist Adam B. Ellick made a New York Times documentary[3] about her life as the Pakistani military intervened in the region. Yousafzai rose in prominence, giving interviews in print and on television, and she was nominated for the International Children's Peace Prize by South African activist Desmond Tutu.
On the afternoon of 9 October 2012, Yousafzai boarded her school bus in the northwest Pakistani district of Swat. A gunman asked for her by name, then pointed a pistol at her and fired three shots. One bullet hit the left side of Yousafzai's forehead, travelled under her skin through the length of her face, and then went into her shoulder.[5] In the days immediately following the attack, she remained unconscious and in critical condition, but later her condition improved enough for her to be sent to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, England, for intensive rehabilitation. On 12 October, a group of 50 Islamic clerics in Pakistan issued a fatwā against those who tried to kill her, but the Taliban reiterated their intent to kill Yousafzai and her father, Ziauddin Yousafzai.
The assassination attempt sparked a national and international outpouring of support for Yousafzai. Deutsche Welle wrote in January 2013 that Yousafzai may have become "the most famous teenager in the world."[6] United Nations Special Envoy for Global Education Gordon Brown launched a UN petition in Yousafzai's name, demanding that all children worldwide be in school by the end of 2015; it helped lead to the ratification of Pakistan's first Right to Education Bill.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai
Sometimes, they miss.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Check this site out.
http://www.clarionproject.org/understanding-islamism/muslim-womens-rights-activists
Nothing at all superior about the other two monotheisms. Here we have the state as a layer between religion and its excesses. However, we are seeing that wear thin as successes toward instituting theocracy are occurring.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Exactly.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)n/t
cali
(114,904 posts)But if you can't see the difference in degree in Islam or the lack of alternatives, you're being obtuse. There isn't another religion that oppresses women to the degree that Islam does- or LGBT folks for that matter.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)would be more restrained in your use of inflammatory language.
Nowhere have I said I don't see differences in degree, or that I don't see alternatives.
You certainly do have a tendancy to shoot from the hip...
cali
(114,904 posts)I have a tendency to shoot from the hip? Hey, look in the mirror. YOU castigated (with lots of angry smilies) another poster for his/her comment about "projection", which was pretty clearly about the Imam. You took it personally.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Wish we used the French 'on' or 'one' more frequently.
But, it just sounds too stilted:
'One is obtuse'...sounds like the Queen in her public pronouncements.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Your words should be common knowledge on a forum such as this. I read nothing in your post that could be "put down" or argued with.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)I'm always afraid of being called terrible names for saying that, but since you put it out there, I totally agree. Thank you cali.
I care way too much about women's rights in the world to ever be a "good" liberal.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)or Mormon or Orthodox Jewish women clergy, for that matter.
840high
(17,196 posts)a few - look it up.
Bettie
(16,124 posts)I get having belief and faith, but that whole framework that gets put around it tends to make people really rigid and unpleasant.
Doesn't matter what religion it is, it spawns the idea that "X (mine)" is better than "Y (others)".
It gives otherwise decent people an excuse to feel superior to others simply because of differences in their belief in an invisible higher power. It turns people who would be jerks anyway into giant ones with a sense that they are "right" in their beliefs because they can twist that framework to tell themselves that.
That is sad.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)fundamentalist fringes of that religion you will find misogyny.
cali
(114,904 posts)for many Christian sects. It's not true in Reform or even Conservative Judaism.
Ever read any Thomas Merton?
Bettie
(16,124 posts)I've never seen any religion without its share of people looking for an excuse to feel superior.
I may not have been as concise as I might have (I did not sleep much last night, so I'm not as on the ball as I'd like), but in any religious group you're going to have those people. Some groups are made up primarily of them, for example, very conservative sects of almost any religion.
My views of religion are colored by my own experiences as well. Religion has done very real harm to me and mine.
I keep my kids away from churches and the damage they can do to people.
There may be some decent ones out there, but I cannot trust in that, nor can I bring myself to truly believe it.
cali
(114,904 posts)are flourishing competing strains of beliefs.
I too kept my kid away from organized religion as I was. But with a difference: My parents didn't acknowledge spirituality at all- and yes, I think that was damaging too.
Oh, and there absolutely are some more than decent ones out there. I've experienced them. Ever been to Unitarian Church? Many Presbyterian Churches are progressive. Reform Jewish Temples, and many more. You're just wrong.
I also want to add that I've known quite a few Sufis and their philosophy is far more inclusive than any other sect of Islam that I'm aware of.
Bettie
(16,124 posts)they also learn about the beliefs of various religions.
The interesting thing is that they have come to the conclusion through evidence in their daily interactions with kids in their school that the ones who talk the most about religion/church are the nastiest kids in school.
We live in a small town in Iowa, so our local choices are ultra-conservative, slightly-less-conservative, and Mormon or JW.
I have many good friends who are religious, even some decent relatives who are.
There are decent people within religions, but for those who are predisposed to being unpleasant, religion offers a convenient excuse and a sense of rightness in their choice to be that kind of person.
And, unfortunately, the loudest voices of religion come from those who would use their beliefs to oppress others.
The guy discussed in the OP is really no different than the loudest voices of Protestantism or Catholicism in this country, though they couch it in slightly more palatable terms.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)n/t
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)spirtual practice is NOT a religion, but rather a 'method for right living'.
marble falls
(57,204 posts)A lot of Christian men say that about women, too. Why the emphasis on Islam? Are you sure he isn't a Teapublican?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)and sincere spiritual practice in all faiths is intended to overcome it.
But, viewed through the woman-haters' twisted prism, we females are uniquely guilty of this deadly sin.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)This is a piece from a reputable French source, in a country that's very much on edge following a traumatizing incident back in January involving radical Islam (Charlie Hebdo).
The choice of article is mine, but the topic is of general interest here at ground zero, where proudly secular France is trying to come to terms with the potential radicalization of 10% of its population.
marble falls
(57,204 posts)he an imperfect man.
peace13
(11,076 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)What the hell are you talking about?
The article quoted is from a reputable French source. Where is there projection and of what?
cali
(114,904 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Just a short aside would sometimes prevent so many misunderstandings.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 30, 2015, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)
It has been brought to my attention that you were referring to the imam and not to me.
peace13
(11,076 posts)You got it! I posted that and then went out and about! Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you! Have a great evening! : )
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)BlueMTexpat
(15,373 posts)cast the first stone.
This imam does not qualify as selfless, IMO. But he also has many kindred spirits in the so-called "Christian" world.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)lame54
(35,321 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)"Yeah, as the French say, he's 'mal-baisé'...
(Not getting any... )"
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)n/t
PumpkinAle
(1,210 posts)wanting to be treated as equals and ignoring what the small-minded, religious indoctrinated fools out there.
Just how could they??!!
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)and his insistence on the natural culpability of women is just beyond belief.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)Just about as well as moderate and Baptist.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)At least for Southern Baptists!
There are moderate imams, but they are never heard in the press...
Is that due to fear of blowback from the Islamist nut-jobs?
tavernier
(12,400 posts)and holding a grudge for life.
I mean, really? Do you think any big brown-eyed beauty (and possibly the only part of her body she was allowed to uncover) would take one look at dork boy and want to hop on his magic carpet?
I think not.
Maybe if Imo got a makeover (a shave, some new frames, a hat with a sexy brim??), he could get a date and be a little less cranky?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 30, 2015, 01:33 PM - Edit history (2)
becomes suprisingly tolerant and open-minded.'
The French call the syndrom 'mal-baisé', which means 'he ain't gettin' any'.
I find that a lot of men seem to have an overinflated view of themselves. How many times do guys comment on the internet about whether some woman is "doable"? As if the sum total of these women's value was to be considered attractive enough to have sex with them. The funny thing is that most of these women would probably not even look twice at these guys.
The same self delusion seems to be how many guys think that they are good lovers, when the reality is the opposite. Cosmo printed a poll recently that stated that 67% of women had at one point or another faked orgasms (mostly to get the whole thing over with or just not to hurt their partner's feelings).
"Cosmopolitan surveyed over 2,300 women aged 18-40 in an online poll about the female orgasm, and the results were eye-opening. The majority of respondents (67 percent) said they have faked an orgasm with a partner, and 72 percent have been with a partner who climaxed but didn't attempt to help them orgasm. Women also reported that their partners orgasmed 95 percent of the time."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/23/cosmo-orgasm-survey_n_6923934.html
Yeah, women are the selfish gender........
riversedge
(70,299 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Ignorant prick, besides selfish.
And, the alarming part is, this guy preaches to hundreds of impressionable young Muslims every Friday, in a country that is in crisis mode after the recent trauma involving radical Islam. (Charlie Hebdo)
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)his qualification as 'moderate' on their terror watch list. And, agree with urge to .
Coventina
(27,172 posts)overlooked.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)what's to stop you from torturing and murdering them at will?
Coventina
(27,172 posts)rights men deign to give them.
Excuse me, I have to go
I'm sick and tired of this bronze-age crap........
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)enabling and abetting the men in their lives.
I guess if you're brought up under a patriarchal regime, and are indoctrinated with the idea that you are inherently inferior to your male master, you can only believe it.
And, yes, once again.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Patriarchy has a certain appeal: it presents a structure where you "belong" and if everyone follows the rules, you will be rewarded.
However, the trap is that the rules are NEVER followed, and if you are in the position of being powerless (a woman) there is no way to appeal for justice. You're just supposed to suck it up and wait for your reward in heaven.
"Live on hay, you get pie in the sky when you die."
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Coventina
(27,172 posts)sentence as well.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)They knew their shit, but were arrogant and always felt like they were right on every subject in the world. He probably is a moderate considering how women get treated in the Middle East by some fiefdoms. Sad to say.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)that can hide behind the iman and their religion. So add sadistic to that list too.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)more effective at being dangerous ignorant assholes.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)And sadly, a lot of them are impressionable young men who will take his 'teachings' on board, and think that beating their wives and heading off to kill the 'infidels' is just dandy.
Response to Surya Gayatri (Original post)
Tuesday Afternoon This message was self-deleted by its author.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)way to '77 celestial virgins'.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)this asshole needs to fuck right off. I don't want his heaven.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)also from the text:
Contacted by FRANCE 24, the French Muslim Council (CFCM), the department of religions of the French Interior Ministry and the mayors office in Montpellier all refused to comment on Imam Khattabis remarks on women.
This kind of rhetoric has got Khattabi in trouble before. After ten years as the rector of the Grand Mosque of Montpellier, Khattabi was forced out of his post in November last year by the mosques governing association, ACMIR.
The association, which preaches togetherness and openness said the imams views were not compatible with its own vision.
"Mohamed Khattabi is alleged to have taken decisions and given 'orders without advising legal managers' and to have used Friday sermons for personal goals", reported regional daily le Midi Libre at the time.
Yet, up to that point, Khattabi had been known more for his pacifism and tolerance.
In June 2013, while still imam of the Grand Mosque of Montpellier, he described himself to the French daily Le Monde as a promoter of an Islam within French society, of coexistence.
After the discovery of the death in Syria of several young jihadists from the town of Lunel, located 30km from Montpellier, he issued a warning to other young French Muslims not to get bamboozled by extremist organisations, like the Islamic State group.
When one speaks of Islam as a single entity, with one viewpoint, problems arise. The article speaks of the Imam being forced from a position by ACMIR, the governing organization of the Mosque. So my quarrel with the post is that by focusing solely on the Imam's remarks the poster is presenting the view that Islam IS a religion with one single view of the role of women.
(Mon opinion seulement)
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Oh, reeeeally? How's that working out for ya, O Great One?
mnhtnbb
(31,402 posts)on his needs/wants coming first, well, that's selfish, according to this guy.
That penis is powerful stuff to the patriarchal types. Doesn't matter what the
religion, the penis comes first, and any woman who doesn't acknowledge that, well,
she's just "selfish".
OK, getting ready for my very first hide.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)about the 'power of the penis' in fundamentalist religious movements.
mnhtnbb
(31,402 posts)whether Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)and their 'scary' will to be considered as more than second-class beings.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)He's pissed at uppity women in the west who don't know their submissive place in the patriarchy.
We won't "acknowledge" a man's "rights"...to sex, or the "right" to deny us equality, fiscal freedom, reproductive choices, independence and all those other crazy values.
Ugh. Sometimes religions is just such a brainwashing machine it makes me ill.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)paragon of religious co-existence in France!
See here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026435980#post81
'In June 2013, while still imam of the Grand Mosque of Montpellier, he described himself to the French daily Le Monde as a promoter of an Islam within French society, of coexistence.'
Beacool
(30,251 posts)The kindness of men???????? Throughout centuries women were treated like second class citizens without the right to vote or even own property. They were passed from their father to their husband, as if they were children who couldn't survive without a man to take care of them. Every right that women have achieved have been fought hard by the women of the era. There's still wage inequality. There's still sexism in Western societies, let alone in other cultures.
What is this idiot talking about?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)model of religious tolerance and co-existence in France.
See here:
'In June 2013, while still imam of the Grand Mosque of Montpellier, he described himself to the French daily Le Monde as a promoter of an Islam within French society, of coexistence.'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026435980#post81
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)Any Chocolates for Valentines day, or any gifts either from Woman. It must be horrible to spend your life with your nose wrapped in a book, and not living life with some of us around. He's certainly a bitter guy, ne?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)heartbreaks or 'chagrin d'amour' with females.
My concern is that he's preaching this misogynistic shite to hundreds of impressionable young Muslims every damn Friday in the 'proudly secular' country of France.
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)and failures is what influences him to teach this misogynistic crap..other wise why go all the trouble to focus on one aspect of Islamic teachings.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)impressionable minds.
If personal prejudices have corrupted his intellectual approach, he shouldn't be allowed to excercise his profession, Imam (teacher).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachers_in_Islam
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)this kind of thinking in among all kinds of religious teachings. Religions where ministers are morally corrupt and have passed down this kind of thinking for generations. Yes they should be removed, but who will remove them? Not much policing among their own peers. Perhaps its why the Catholic Church moved Child molesting Clergy from one spot to another, to avoid more scandal.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)not by the lowly females in his flock...
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Educated women such as myself are BAD. As far as I can tell, Christianity's formula is penis = wisdom. Just like the other two Abrahamic religions. The Trinity is all male, so there is no room for female deities unless you're Catholic and pray to Mary as an intercessor.
Where I live, men will assume that my husband owns the house so they address him. Or they call him by "Mr. My Last Name".
It's not funny when you realize that people take this crap seriously.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Especially in a country where over 10% of the population is Muslim and they can hear this kind of shite every Friday at the mosque.
Young Muslim men hear this crap and then go home with a pretext to beat their wives and girlfriends.
(Not to mention having a pass to go off to Islamic war zones where they can kill and torture with impunity...)
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)This is why I politely pass when people come to my door with their religious solutions to life. Nope, we are not interested, have a nice day! ........
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Not a being worthy of worship, in my view. I support Lot's wife.
In order to pretend that Islam, Judaism, or Christianity is not a sexist religion, practitioners have to be willing to ignore large swaths of their holy books.
Seeking a 'moderate' Islam is a fool's errand. This guy is representing the reality of Islam and Yahweh.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)to understand that their religion's particular holy writ cannot be the prescription for a liberal, tolerant society.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)It can't be said enough.
The entire Abrahamic tradition is misogynistic, racist, and violent to its core.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)What a surprise. Not.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)Jerk.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Means 'not getting any', and behaving badly because of it...
Hekate
(90,793 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,210 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)great term!
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Coventina was a Romano-British goddess of wells and springs.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 31, 2015, 05:52 AM - Edit history (1)