Hillary could be the final nail in the middle-class coffin.

[WillTwain]

Last edited Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:08 PM - Edit history (2)

Her plan: She is testing her popularity with women and minorities. If she feels social issues can get her elected, she will ignore labor other than some patronizing blather. She is testing her support now, if she calculates it is strong enough and feels she can win without labor, unions will be deftly brushed aside. If this works out for her, she can win the election and not make promises to the economic-minded left - dooming the middle-class.

What many need to realize is the Republicans and New Democrats (Third Way) have the same economic goal in mind - recreate the U.S. with a tiny middle-class. Social issues are decoys used to fight for and decide who gains the White House. This explains why social issues are moving forward while labor issues are going backwards.

The bottom line is Paul Ryan (Milton Friedman disciple) is pushing devastating policy for the working classes. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, advancing policy for the democrats is Larry Summers. There is very little daylight between these two multi-nationalists. They both view the middle-class as an inefficient relic from a bygone past with huge legacy issues. They aim to correct this "problem" by slashing wages, Social Security, Medicare, etc. What about infrastructure spending? Hell no, that would assume the U.S. has a future. They view a strong middle-class as a major mistake, an historic aberration that needs to be returned to its rightful place. Remember, neo-liberals and neo-cons believe in Thomas Friedman's the flat earth philosophy - we must level the global playing field. In other words, Americans make too much money. That said, we have not hit bottom, yet.

In ten years the cake will be baked. Members of the “extreme left” will gain no satisfaction in saying, “We told you so.”

[JaneyVee]

1. Sorry, but that is not at all "her plan".

You should do more research.

[WillTwain]

2. I hope that I am wrong. What is her plan for workers?

She has said nothing substantive.

[JaneyVee]

5. Saving Social Security and Medicare, for starters.

Plus she also strongly endorsed Obama's SOTU address propositions. She is for campaign finance reform, cap and trade, kyoto protocol, alt energy, higher wages, equal pay, paid sick leave, taxing the rich, universal healthcare, anti-discrimination laws, and in her new book stated "The unfettered free market has been the most radically disruptive force in American life in the last generation".

Hardly a "final nail in the coffin".

[WillTwain]

6. Specifically

Everybody is for higher wages. How will she do it? Is she for a living wage and if so, how much should it be.

Taxing the rich: Are we talking to pre-Reagan era levels? What rates? What about corporate rates?

"Radically disruptive force" is a nice phrase but it does not disclose if she thinks it is good or bad. She says it is "Radically disruptive." Well, that is true. Is it radically destructive to creative?

[JaneyVee]

13. Everybody is for higher wages???

Is that why none of the Republican candidates are for it? And to clarify: "I believe that there's got to be a healthy tension among all of our institutions in society, and that the market is the driving force behind our prosperity, our freedom in so many respects to make our lives our own, but that it cannot be permitted just to run roughshod over people's lives as well."

Look, I'm a die-hard progressive, but the reason progressives barely get elected is because the progressive base will make enemies out of a candidate who agrees with them 90% of the time just because it's not 100%. I'm all for a wide open primary, may the best candidate win, but if our preferred candidates don't win the primary, the only thing a temper tantrum is going to result in is a Republican president. One which we'll be lucky to agree with us on 3% of the issues.

90%
vs.
3%

[qazplm]

135. yep

You want anybody but Hillary in the primary? That's fine. Competition never hurts, and if it drives her a little to the left all the better, and if she loses the primary a second time, then so be it.

But the idea that Hillary Clinton is no different from republicans is so laughably insipid it makes my brain hurt.

[WillTwain]

283. She is not a Republican

[Sheepshank]

274. You want a candidates platform prior to announcing candidacy?

then get pissy because youR item of the hour (I did notice it seems to change), isn't delineated in enough detail? Talking bout a "sheesh" moment

[WillTwain]

278. What are you talking about?

"You item of hour"?

I want clarity as soon as she announces. It is odd that we are debating where she stands on important issues considering she has been high profile for nearly 25 years. By now her opinions should be common knowledge. She is against single payer healthcare, has made no comments on EFCA, we do not know if she wants to raise the corporate tax levels, raise capital gains rates, living wage?, free college?, expand social security. There are so many issues that most people have no idea where she stands.

By the way, Bernie has not announced and I can tell you exactly where he stand son these issues. This seems a little more normal. We know where all the rape-ublicans stand on all issues. Why is there so much mystery for Hillary?

I hope this clears up why people worry. Even you questioned wanting candidates platform prior to announcing candidacy. Who is Hillary? We need to know.

[whathehell]

7. What does she say about Organized Labor? Given record attacks on it by Scott Walker,

Chris Christie and other Republican Presidential Wannabes,

I would think she'd have something to offer besides silence.

[WillTwain]

16. She should be loud and proud and redundant about labor.

[JaneyVee]

18. As a union member myself, I'm interested. But...

I'm 100% sure she will have to answer that question during the primaries, if she decides to run. So we will most likely find out.

[WillTwain]

23. I am union, too. Obama pandered in 2008 big-time. EFCA?

[JaneyVee]

26. Has Obama fought against unions? (besides KXL?)

[ND-Dem]

30. that's the standard now? that a president doesn't (openly) fight against unions? (except for

a few minor items)?

[JaneyVee]

40. How is not attacking unions a low bar?

Repubs are ready to dismantle unions while Obama has defended unions.

[Marr]

164. Joe doesn't beat his wife in public. Well, only occasionally-- when they disagree.'

Hank wants to kill her! Thank god for Joe, right?

[JaneyVee]

187. False analogy. Joe and his wife are harmonious. Hank is the GOP.

Hank actually wants them all dead. Hank is the GOP.

[ND-Dem]

174. defending unions is a bit different from not attacking them. one is a positive action, the

other is refraining from any action (positive or negative)

you asked if Obama had "fought against unions (besides KXL)"

[whathehell]

237. Excellent point. n/t.

[WillTwain]

246. Apathy towards unions

[WillTwain]

46. Sad but true

[Marr]

162. +1, No kidding. How bizarre. /nt

[merrily]

32. What a low standard! And certainly not the one he campaigned on in 2008.

Last edited Sun Mar 29, 2015, 10:55 PM - Edit history (1)

[WillTwain]

33. Of course not, he just has not fought FOR them. See Wisconsin.

[JaneyVee]

54. Of course you're wrong again.

And it's getting boring having to do the research for you.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6836008

[WillTwain]

64. Then why are unions so pissed at him?

[JaneyVee]

77. They're not.

[WillTwain]

81. I do not know what to say to you. Union have all agreed to delay supporting her.

They are not behind her at this point. They have repeatedly expressed concerns.

[JaneyVee]

88. Her? You just said "him".

[PrefersaPension]

72. How about saying "Here's a link for you"

to share information, rather than being snarky. Aren't we all in this together?

Sheesh...

[JaneyVee]

79. Apparently we aren't "all in this together".

[WillTwain]

83. i know the unions are not in this thing together with her. At least not yet.

[JaneyVee]

90. Umm...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/alongside-labor-leaders-hillary-clinton-diagnoses-inequality#.ja2RypDMk

[PrefersaPension]

107. Thanks for sharing!

From the article: 'While most of Clinton's speeches in the last two years have centered on her own experience, whether in the State Department or at her foundation, the roundtable on Monday was an exception. Clinton was a participant, not the focus — a notable shift that invoked the presidential campaign, and candidate, to come."

It's a start. Let's hold her feet to the fire.

[merrily]

276. The date of that is this month. I seem to recall Wisconsin union problems with Walker

starting sooner than that. And some comment during the 2008 campaign about comfortable shoes. And a national Democratic convention held in a right to work state.

[WillTwain]

279. Look again, I wrote about Dayton Vs. Walker prior to the elections.

[merrily]

280. My post was to Janey Vee's Reply 54, which linked you to a March 2015 article.

[BlueCaliDem]

44. A few large Unions are lobbying for Keystone XL to be built.

The AFL-CIO Building & Construction Trades Department “emphatically” supports Keystone.

The International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which says Keystone XL will “contribute to enhanced energy security, economic prosperity, and, of critical importance, the creation of good paying jobs.” Here's their letter.

The Laborers’ International Union of North America which said Keystone “is not just a pipeline; it is, in fact, a lifeline.”

The International Union of Operating Engineers said its members are “hungry for work” and H.R. 3 will “unlock the jobs” the Keystone project will create.http://energycommerce.house.gov/sites/republicans.energycommerce.house.gov/files/letters/hr3/20130415LIUNA.pdf

Apparently, not all labor unions are equal, so perhaps President Obama is fighting against some labor unions - in order to protect US.

[WillTwain]

52. That is true

The point is, on the larger issues like the TPP and Employee Free Choice Act, Obama is not helping unions,either. So, he is not always fighting for us. A few smallish issues like keystone do not consider the bigger union demands.

[BlueCaliDem]

69. I have zero reason to distrust this president. I base this judgment on his past performance.

Just because we can't see clearly why a certain action he takes isn't 100% in our favor, doesn't negate the fact that this president has worked hard and diligently - and against an unprecedented obstructionist Congress, to boot - to find ways to benefit the American people. That can't be said of any Republican president since Reagan.

Remember...he's got to find common ground between corporations and the common people who rely on corporations for their living. Just as all labor unions aren't equal, not all corporations are equally evil, and President Obama understands that, as do most people who aren't ideologically driven.

[WillTwain]

71. Fine, why are unions so mad at him?

Peace

[BlueCaliDem]

75. Because he refuses to sign Keystone XL into law and give them what they want?

Reread my post above. Not all Labor Unions are pro-American worker, as my post has proven.

Peace.

[WillTwain]

78. It runs much deeper than that. They almost did not endorse him in 2012, way before Keystone was

huge issue. He has dropped the ball on important issues like the Employee Free Choice Act and he is pursuing the TPP. These are the issues they care most about.

[geek tragedy]

105. "They almost did not endorse him in 2012." O rly? nt

[WillTwain]

108. Check it out. There are plenty of pieces written.

[sheshe2]

236. +2!

[WillTwain]

239. Check Out Post #153

Some have big reasons.

[sheshe2]

242. Already read the thread...

not interested to do it again.

[WillTwain]

243. How come?

This is vital to understanding both sides and the full issues.

[sheshe2]

247. One of the reasons....

You keep asking everyone to provide links, and they do. You, however do not. It's an opinion piece.

[WillTwain]

249. Actually, I always back up my words. Some people refuse to admit they are wrong

so they set up straw man arguments or demand links that you already sent. So arrogant.

I know of an instance where a person wanted a quote for a headline. She/he did not understand the basic idea of a headline. It is not a quote, rather an eye-catching summary. She/he does not understand that a quote usually says something like "he said, She said," Even after explaining this to her/him they refused to back down and started cursing. Frustrated possibly. As you can see, if you read this thread, I have no problem learning from others.

I hope you and yours will read the comments that I pointed out. We all have much to learn.

Have a great one.

[WillTwain]

240. And post #223

There are legitimate complaints about the president. I hope you understand.

[Hoyt]

101. +1

[bvar22]

223. "When I"m President of America....

[WillTwain]

225. Powerful: When did EFCA pass? Missed that.

He never even mentions it. i have not heard him say a word about EFCA in years. He dropped it almost immediately. This is why unions do not trust democrats.

Thank you for the dejecting video.

[Savannahmann]

161. Hi, have you heard of the TPP?

I only ask because Unions are really opposed to it. Yet Democrats seem to be determined to get it finalized and passed before President Obama leaves office. Odd really, since it would put not a knife, but a fifty foot spear into the backs of the Unions.

http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Political-Action-Legislation/Poll-Shows-Voters-Will-Hold-Lawmakers-Accountable-for-Fast-Track-Support

Meh, they're probably bullshitting about Democrats losing elections if they support the TPP.

[WillTwain]

170. You are a troll

Just kidding.

[BlueCaliDem]

251. The AFL-CIO supports building the Keystone XL Pipeline.

See my post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6432756

I guess, in their pursuit of jobs no matter how dangerous those are to our long-term environmental health, they'll support any bill for any amount of jobs and are, understandably, against TPP if they believe it will cost American jobs.

FWIW, I'm against the Keystone XL Pipeline and ambiguous about TPP until I've understood it fully.

[NYC Liberal]

61. She has certainly offered something besides silence and spoken up many, many times.

Stand up for unions; organize for fair wages
"Let’s make sure the people who work hard every day can actually support their families and save for the future. That means standing up for our unions again--understanding that there’s a connection between unions and the middle class. When I’m president, we’re going to stand up for unions. We’re going to make sure they can organize for fair wages and good working conditions. And we’re going to appoint people to the Department of Labor who are actually pro-labor for a change."

Minimum wage should be tied to congressional salaries
"We can start by standing up for an economy that honors work again. It is unacceptable that people working for a minimum wage have not had a raise in 10 years! Wouldn’t it be nice if they were given a chance to get beyond the stagnating wages? Productivity is up, profits are up, but people’s wages are not up. I have introduced legislation that would tie the minimum wage to congressional salaries. No more increases for Congress until we raise the minimum wage!"

The working poor deserve a living wage
"We should be working to keep a basic bargain with all Americans: If you work hard and are responsible, you will not live in poverty. If you study this issue, you can clearly see it will not hurt the economy, it will not increase unemployment. There are those who have opposed an increase in the minimum wage, arguing that it will cost jobs, and there are some people who say we need more studies.. They are wrong."

• Voted YES on extending unemployment benefits from 39 weeks to 59 weeks
  
• Voted YES on restricting employer interference in union organizing.
  

Sponsored bill enforcing against gender pay discrimination.
Clinton sponsored Paycheck Fairness Act

• A bill to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to provide more effective remedies to victims of discrimination in the payment of wages on the basis of sex.
  
• Revises the exception to the prohibition for a wage rate differential based on any other factor other than sex. Limits such factors to bona fide factors, such as education, training, or experience.
  
• Prohibits employer retaliation for inquiring about, discussing, or disclosing the wages of the employee in response to a sex discrimination investigation.
  
• Makes employers who violate sex discrimination prohibitions liable in a civil action for either compensatory or punitive damages.
  
• States that any action brought to enforce the prohibition against sex discrimination may be maintained as a class action in which individuals may be joined as party plaintiffs without their written consent.

AFL-CIO Lifetime Score: 94%

[font size="1"]Source: http://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton[/font]

You know, this morning I got into a car built by union members. I traveled on roads laid by union members. I drove past buildings built and maintained by union members. I came to a hotel staffed by union members. And now I'm standing here with you, union members, some of the hardest working, most patriotic Americans I know.

You know, sometimes I see people who speak and act as though they think unions have no place in America anymore, and I wonder what country they've been living in. Unions are America. Unions built the great American middle class, and it is unions that have helped make our country the greatest and best in the world. I know that from first-hand experience, having both worked with and watched what so many of you have done over so many years.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Hillary_Clinton_Jobs.htm

[cascadiance]

117. And with her support for H-1B and the TPP she's actively been SCREWING tech workers...

... like myself who've been unemployed as I am now and many times recently and have only had salaries recently still lower than it was even in raw dollars than it was almost over 10 years ago.

She IS working against those people in the working class like me by doing this.

[Thinkingabout]

306. Great post, glad you posted this.

[Jackpine Radical]

122. What about regulating Wall Street?

[JaneyVee]

188. She favors regulating Wall Street.

[rhett o rick]

259. Link please. nm

[hedda_foil]

157. "Saving Medicare and Social Security" means about the same as "reforming" them.

We have come far enough to realize that they're just code words for reducing benefits.

[Doctor_J]

160. She's not for universal healthcare, she is for Heritage Care

Mandatory for-profit health insurance where billions of our health dollars go to CEO's of insurance, hospital and drug companies. And, as the OP alludes to, she is for TPP, XL, drilling, union-busting, for-profit education, and other Turd Way solutions to problems. "Saving Medicare and SS"? That means cut benefits to most triangulators and other conservatives.

[WillTwain]

167. Smart: Is she really for Heritage Care over Universal?

[Doctor_J]

175. "Our country is too diverse for Single Payer"

Hillary Clinton Likes Obamacare, And Opposes Single-Payer Health Insurance

[WillTwain]

180. Excellent Piece: Thank you.

You should OP this.

[JaneyVee]

191. You know there's a difference between universal and single payer, right?

[JaneyVee]

189. Except she IS for universal healthcare:

"There are 41 million people without health insurance. Who will take care of these people in the future? How will we pay for their care? How will we pay for the extra costs that come when someone is not treated for a chronic disease or turned away from the emergency room? The job of health care reform cannot be done when access to care depends on skin color or the neighborhood they live in or the amount of money in their wallet. Let's continue to work toward universal affordable, quality health care".

[WillTwain]

196. Do you have evidence?

[Doctor_J]

197. I don't know when, where or who your quote is from, but read the link I posted in reply 175

For some reason the success of Medicare has not convinced her that private insurance is an unnecessary burden.

[JaneyVee]

209. You know there's a difference between universal and single payer, right?

[Doctor_J]

215. And you know there is a difference between healthcare and health insurance, right?

Hillary wants people to be forced to buy health insurance (Heritage/Gingrich/Romney/Obamacare).

If you want to argue minutiae to try to disguise the fact that HRC wants to enrich insurance executives at the expense of working people, let's agree to disagree.

[JaneyVee]

218. Private insurance will always be around. It exists even in single payer countries.

[Doctor_J]

234. It won't be mandatory anywhere else, and none of their non-profit systems will be taken away

I don't understand why the New Dems/Fan Club/Turd Way have now decided that the Heritage Foundation Health Insurance is the greatest thing ever. at least when it first passed, you claimed that it was a "step toward single payer". That was and is preposterous, but at least hopeful. Now you've given up, claiming ACA makes Obama the greatest president ever. The discussions usually go sideways ("Other countries have private insurance too!!11!1!&quot , as if this has some bearing on the fact that we're the only country without guaranteed HC.

[Jackpine Radical]

231. They have to destroy the safety net

in order to save it.

[misterhighwasted]

12. When she declares her candidacy & lays out her platform we will know.

Until then its all speculation based on opinion.


Hillary 2016

[WillTwain]

17. This is true. I hope she makes a fool of me.

[misterhighwasted]

28. Ha ..She already has.

However you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Seriously, sir, I am also anxious to hear what she has to say in directing American policy for all it's citizens.

[WillTwain]

36. I knew that one was coming left it wide open.

[misterhighwasted]

48. My bad, couldn't resist. The true Nail in the Coffin will be a GOP Pres win. And

their choosing the next batch of Supreme Court judges.

For America, that will be the final nail.
We will never recover.

This election is just that critical, you see.

Enjoy your day my friend, I am off to a baseball game.

[WillTwain]

58. I hope you go four for four.

[Kammer]

129. RESOLUTION by the New York State AFL-CIO issued May 3, 2007

Whereas, as a twice endorsed candidate of the New York State AFL-CIO, Senator Clinton has consistently displayed, through countless deeds and actions, a strong commitment to the needs and concerns of working men and women, and

Whereas, through her seven years as a U.S. Senator, Hillary Clinton has worked on far reaching national legislation that would further the cause of all workers, such as supporting an increase in the minimum wage, co-sponsoring the Employee Free Choice Act and the Family Medical Leave Expansion Act, and opposing CAFTA, and

Whereas, Senator Clinton has also worked diligently on local labor issues in New York that sometimes fly under the national radar but are vital to the future of local unions and rank and file members, and

Whereas, the New York State AFL-CIO represents one out of every seven union members in the country, thus providing the State Labor Federation with a significant voice concerning candidates worthy of labor’s support, and

Resolved, that at the appropriate time, the New York State AFL-CIO will urge the National AFL-CIO to consider Senator Clinton’s extraordinary body of work on behalf of the cause, values and principles of organized labor when deciding Labor’s endorsement for President of the United States.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/labor/nyaflcio050307.html

[WillTwain]

133. Impressive,

That was eight years ago, we will see.

They are slow to move this time, but you have left me hopeful.

[merrily]

34. Anyone who weighs her campaign rhetoric more heavily than her lifetime

should pm me. I have an inventory of bridges that are fantastic investments.

[rhett o rick]

258. And you should offer a link once in a while. nm

[WillTwain]

262. I got booted off the HRC group. I never posted on it and did not know of it.

[rhett o rick]

272. I see it as sadly ironic that the HRC supports claim to want all Democrats to be united

and yet they do little to convince others that HRC is the best choice. If you don't agree they simply ban you. Their ban list is growing.

[WillTwain]

281. The enemies are on our side.

I was bounced for 90 days by another powerful DU group last December. I was only posting for a few weeks and they targeted. I was ganged up on for the silliest things. The comments I made in response to their vile comments was tepid at best.

Talk about living in bubbles - sort of like our tea-party buddies.

[betterdemsonly]

3. I agree. I wish Liz felt more responsibilty to take her on. n/t

[WillTwain]

4. We've heard this song before. The melody is great but it has no lyrics.

She needs to say let us know her plan.

[merrily]

43. ......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6396919

[geek tragedy]

8. "Social issues are decoys used to fight for and decide who gains the White House."

In other words, you think the feminists and the GLBT community should sit down and shut up.

you Better Believe It

[WillTwain]

10. Nope, You are putting words in my mouth

They are the issues the two pro-business parties use to gain access to the White House.

Women, minorities and GLBT are all very valid issues - crucial in fact. Both parties are battling along social lines at the expense of labor. It is intentional.

Advancing social reform is spectacular.

[geek tragedy]

14. You are spewing incoherent nonsense.

If they are 'crucial issues,' then the Democrats are not using them as a decoy by fighting for 'crucial issues' that their base demands they fight for.

The Republicans attempt to take civil rights away. It is not a fucking decoy for Democrats to fight to restore civil rights.

GLBT and women's advocates within and from outside the Democratic Party have pushed it to support civil rights.

It's not conspiracy.

[WillTwain]

62. You do not get the big picture

Social issues are the battleground they use to seek power. They are incredibly important, but not at the expense of workers rights. I hope you see this. They have the same goal in mind for us economically. Read the article again.

[geek tragedy]

87. I get that you are pushing the discredited bullshit that the parties

are the same.

They are not. Not even close. Compare the record of Scott Walker in Wisconsin vs Mark Dayton in Minnesota. Or the Obama budgets vs Paul Ryan budgets.

And you are also pushing the dishonest claim that Democrats fight for civil rights only because they want a distraction. That is nonsense and at odds with reality.

[WillTwain]

93. I have written about Dayton for months.

I know Mark Dayton. Hillary is no Mark Dayton.

I was the first to write about Mark Dayton vs. Scott Walker back in August. It is ironic that he is now being used against me.

[geek tragedy]

100. What are the substantive differences between Clinton and Dayton?

Where do they disagree?

[WillTwain]

102. Dayton is openly pro-union, higher-taxes on the rich and has raised the minimum wage.

His record not his words are the difference. He raised taxes on the rich. Hillary was in the senate. I may be wrong. Did she draft a bill to increase corporate or high income tax rates? Did she write a bill to raise the minimum wage. Dayton is an old-school progressive that campaigned on raising taxes on the rich. That takes guts. Let's see Hillary do that.

I hope she makes me wrong.

[geek tragedy]

192. She co-sponsored five bills to raise the minimum wage. nt

[WillTwain]

195. Can you post them?

[geek tragedy]

198. S.2514 - Standing with Minimum Wage Earners Act of 2007 110th Congress (2007-2008)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/senate-bill/2514?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22S.2514%22%5D%7D

[WillTwain]

200. I like it.

[geek tragedy]

199. S.2725 - Standing with Minimum Wage Earners Act of 2006 109th Congress (2005-2006)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/2725

[WillTwain]

202. i like it.

[geek tragedy]

201. S.277 - Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2001 107th Congress (2001-2002)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/senate-bill/277/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22s277%22%5D%7D

[WillTwain]

204. Good stuff

[geek tragedy]

203. S.20 - Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2003 108th Congress (2003-2004)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/senate-bill/20/cosponsors

[WillTwain]

205. Very good

[geek tragedy]

206. S.2370 - Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2004 108th Congress (2003-2004)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/senate-bill/2370/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22S.2370%22%5D%7D

[WillTwain]

210. Hats off to Hillary

I will say this and I have said it before. The minimum wage increase is great but it is still not a living wage. It was an increase from way below the poverty line to around the poverty line. We need a national minimum wage of at least $12 by many economists estimation. Some say as high as $20.

I also believe that a difference between the establishment in the parties is the democrats want to maintain a higher minimum safety net than the republicans. Both are lame compared to our past and compared to much of Europe and consistent with Americans taking a big haircut.

But, I give credit where it is due.

Do you know her new minimum wage proposal?

[geek tragedy]

213. I'm sure she'll have one when she announces. nt

[WillTwain]

214. You have proven she is better than Obama

That is good. Thank you for the effort. Chalk one up for Hillary. Again, what is her proposal for 2017? It better be at least $12.

[geek tragedy]

207. S.1062 - Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2005 109th Congress (2005-2006)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/senate-bill/1062/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22minimum+wage%22%5D%7D

[WillTwain]

211. See post #210

[geek tragedy]

208. S.2 - Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 110th Congress (2007-2008)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/senate-bill/2/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22S2%22%5D%7D

So that is 5 bills cosponsored and two where she introduced the bill.

[WillTwain]

212. See post #210

[PrefersaPension]

97. Ummm...please stop making things up!

WillTwain wrote an article about Walker and Dayton comparing the two as polar opposites! Did you read that post? It was in Daily Kos in August 2014 and made the Facebook page there with over 3,000 views! Minnesota Liberalism Trounces Wisconsin Conservatism -- it's worth a read!

[1StrongBlackMan]

141. I'm see more and more of this ...

And you are also pushing the dishonest claim that Democrats fight for civil rights only because they want a distraction.

Think it's a coincidence?

[merrily]

50. Agree. The Democratic Party used to stand for social issues and economic issues.

Social issues are important, but should not be the only significant distinction between the two largest political parties.

Your meaning was very clear.

[WillTwain]

67. People need to separate the two. Politicians do it all the time.

[Capt. Obvious]

316. Par for the course

And I see he's lead you down the rabbit hole.

[WillTwain]

317. It is fun to listen to the Geek's ravings.

[Capt. Obvious]

319. Chasing the goal posts had to be exhausting

[WillTwain]

321. He is strong. He can carry them from Insanityville to looney town and back again.

[misterhighwasted]

21. That is precisely what the GOP wants women & LGBT to do.

Along with minorities, children & education, health policy etc.

Sit down & shut up is the GOP mantra to keep the country divided.

[geek tragedy]

42. Some 'leftists' also want women and GLBT Democrats to sit in

the back of the bus because they think those issues are distractions from the ones that 'really matter.'

[misterhighwasted]

51. Well that's stupid. Those groups are an enormous voting block. Civil & Equal rights.

What leftists want this?
They are lying about being leftists then.
That is as Dem based as one gets.

[PrefersaPension]

91. Where are you getting that?

That sounds "Glen Beck" like, not leftists. Be careful who you listen to -- are you new to politics?

[bvar22]

293. Will you provide some support forthis absurd claim?

...or are you just making stuff up again?

[WillTwain]

295. You owe an explanation, This is damaging and dividing the party.

[1StrongBlackMan]

136. And don't forget about PoC. n/t

[Doctor_J]

176. And you're saying you don't care what happens wrt jobs, TPP, drilling, public schools, healthcare,

and social security as long as someone pays lip service to feminists and GLBT.

[geek tragedy]

9. Clinton is not ignoring labor, that is just plain false.

There is certainly enough in her history to criticize without making shit up.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/alongside-labor-leaders-hillary-clinton-diagnoses-inequality#.ja2RypDMk

[WillTwain]

11. What is she supposed to do flip them off publicly?

Labor said they are waiting on endorsing her. When Trumka steps up, I will change my mind.

[geek tragedy]

15. Now you are moving the goalposts. nt

[WillTwain]

19. Can you explain please?

[geek tragedy]

35. You said she would ignore labor and just this week

she met with labor and supported their concerns on inequality and diminishing opportunities.

[WillTwain]

41. Ignore their needs not the photo-ops

[geek tragedy]

45. So your basic premise is that Clintn has the exact same economic agenda as Paul

Ryan.

Which has no basis except in your imagination, as it is contradicted by her entire public record.

[merrily]

53. Board of Directors of WalMart is not part of her record?

She was a Democratic Senator from NY who voted with the Democratic caucus most of the time. Big whoop.

[WillTwain]

55. Then why is Richard Trumka delaying endorsing her. Is his imagination goofed up, too?

[Historic NY]

241. Is she running yet.....

wait until that happens. Meanwhile instead of trash talking look at her record.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/hillary_clinton/300022

[WillTwain]

244. That is what the whole discussion is about.

[ND-Dem]

20. kr

[MineralMan]

22. Your scenario is incorrect.

Hillary Clinton will come out strong in support of labor. The major unions will respond with an endorsement of her, assuming she wins the primaries. I think you do not understand Democratic politics very well.

She will also support all of those social issues. I can't believe anyone thinks she will do anything different from what other Democratic presidential candidates would do. She will campaign as a Democrat, supporting labor, social programs and all the rest. Uff da!

[WillTwain]

27. No need to insult. Obama pandered in 2008. Now they are deeply at odds.

Times change. Unions have been burned by democrats and are talking about making a stand. Trumka said if Hillary takes along Obama's economic team they will not endorse.her. This is major.

[MineralMan]

31. Who's insulting?

I'm not insulting anyone. I just think you're dead wrong. Watch what happens.

[WillTwain]

37. You said I do not understand

[MineralMan]

49. No. I said I DO NOT THINK you understand.

I have opinions on many things, and that's my opinion of what you said. I disagree with you. Disagreement is not an insult. I also said that you are incorrect. That is also a disagreement. Do not confuse disagreement with being insulted. You were not insulted. I still disagree with what you are saying, though.

[WillTwain]

60. Peace, I stand corrected.

[PrefersaPension]

39. MN would have gone Right to Work if Emmer won as Governor

...your state dodged the bullet there.

Why are you so confident Hillary will support Unions? Do you have any links supporting this claim? Will she "support" unions for their much needed endorsement for the party, or will it be all rhetoric?

What scares me is that our Democratic leaders barely utter the word Union, like it is poisonous or something. I am not convinced that she is a union supporter other than simply needing that endorsement to keep her viable.

[MineralMan]

47. You see, though, Emmer did not win.

He did win a seat in the House, though, replacing Michele Bachmann.

In my district, we re-elected Betty McCollum. Go look her up.

[PrefersaPension]

139. I was just making conversation.

I know of her and I met her on several occasions. We went to the same college. Her picture is on the wall at St. Catherine's for having the accomplishment of being a rep. I've since moved to Oregon, but I keep up with MN politics as best I can.

[PrefersaPension]

25. We need a strong UNION MOVEMENT with Hillary supporting it!

What happened to all the fighters for worker's rights? Our country's union membership is anemic compared to other countries. Why are Americans allowing this to happen?

Are there too many snobby Liberals that think this issue isn't important enough to support? I've seen other DUers respond with zero passion when this issue is brought up -- why?

Where are the really good Democrats -- those that fight for everyone, not just for themselves.

[WillTwain]

29. K-R

[merrily]

57. We need a strong union movement with everyone supporting it.

[SidDithers]

38. The fringe Left hates Hillary, and the Right hates Hillary...

and they're both pretty fucking hilarious.

Sid

[MineralMan]

56. Yes, and the major unions will endorse Clinton,

if she's the candidate. Guaranteed. Why? Because Clinton supports labor.

[merrily]

59. So is your idea of what constitutes the "fringe left."

[WillTwain]

66. Are unions the "fringe left?"

[99Forever]

74. Obviously in the minds of Clinton supporters they are.

Any more questions as to why many actual Democrats will not be supporting or voting for Hillary Goldman Sachs Clinton, come hell or high water?

[WillTwain]

76. They are incredibly silent about unions. Unbelievable.

[99Forever]

80. Much like the TPP.

When the truth of what they are about comes out, there will be a huge backlash.

[WillTwain]

86. The blowback is insane. Try to wake people up and they do not want to hear it.

[merrily]

254. I very much doubt any group of DUers is asleep.

[WillTwain]

263. Eyes are shut, maybe not sleeping.

[merrily]

264. I guess we just see it differently.

I don't see the majority of Hillary supporters who meet criticism of her with personal insults and similar "blowback" as either babes in the woods or especially sincere.

As I recently said to another poster, you just may be less cynical than I. Also, I hope the less cynical view is the correct one. I doubt it, but I hope I'm mistaken on that count.

[WillTwain]

268. There are many great post in this thread that point out why Hill worries people. Please

take the time to read the whole thread and listen closely to what is said. There are real concerns backed up with history, facts and links. The whole point is we cannot have another eight years like the Obama term. Republicans are against all of us. Democrats need to protect us. Beyond protecting us, they need to repair damage and rebuild. The constant economic drift to the right hurts ALL OF US.

I am hopeful that we can pull Hill left.

Peace.

[merrily]

273. I usually, but not always, read an entire thread before I post on it for the first time.

I will read it again now that there are more posts on it, just because you asked nicely and I think that important.

But are under the impression that I am a Hillary fan? I am not. I have not done many OPs on this board and most of the ones I have done are in the Massachusetts forum. However, I did do this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026211673

[WillTwain]

282. Thank you.

I do not hate Hillary so we are both misunderstood.

Peace

[merrily]

285. I do not hate Hillary either, but it sometimes takes an act of will

not to have nasty emotions when personally insulted by some of her supporters.

BTW, just to be clear: I never accused you of hating Hillary. As best I can recall, I've never accused anyone else of hating Hillary. either. Or, for that matter, of loving her.

[WillTwain]

286. They, like Obama groupies, can be as rude as baggers.

We want to have a serious adult-level conversation and in they come to bite your ankles.

[fredamae]

99. I don't "hate" Hillary

and I don't believe most who object to her being POTUS hate her either.
I, for one...don't Trust her Loyalties, Politics and Agenda, if elected.

[Doctor_J]

177. Wall Street loves Hillary and Obama, and loves Republicans

and they're all dangerous.

[madville]

63. It will all depend on how each issue plays with polling and focus groups

She will take or not take positions based on how it benefits her, the actual effects on the people are not really in the equation.

If research indicates say 60% of the public has no love for unions, she will keep quiet or very low key in regard to them. If research indicates strong support for unions, she will work it into her strategy and talking points for her surrogates.

[WillTwain]

65. Bingo.

Tell this to Jayneev.

She has no passion for unions. They are a tool that may help. That is all.

[AgingAmerican]

68. So Hillary's main goal is to destroy the middle class?

I don't like Hillary's 'economics' either, but I don't believe she is literally out to destroy us.

[WillTwain]

70. Her goal is to severely scale back the middle-class.

Thomas Friedman is a thought leader for all these people. As is Larry Summers.

Friedman thinks the American middle class better get used to the fact that the party is over. We need to compete with 26 cents an hour workers in Vietnam.

Summers said, let the auto industry fall.

Summers is a long-time advisor.

[AgingAmerican]

137. You present no evidence to back your theory

Summers does not follow the Austrian school of economics, nor do you present any evidence of such. He is a douche bag, but he isn't a follower of Mises.

Your hair's on fire!

[WillTwain]

138. He wanted the auto industry to fail. Explain how that is not multi-national thinking.

These guys are not with us.

[AgingAmerican]

151. He wanted the whole auto industry to collapse?

Again, no evidence forthcoming.

[WillTwain]

152. Please, he did not want to give them at the loan that saved the American auto industry.

Evidence?

[AgingAmerican]

185. So because he was against a loan to an automobile company

You see this as evidence he actively sought the demise/collapse of the whole US auto industry? Interesting...

[WillTwain]

190. Were you living in America at the time. Google it.

Yes, the auto industry would have collapsed into bankruptcy. He did not care. Why?

[AgingAmerican]

216. The fact you have no source

Says everything I need to know.

Have a nice day.

[WillTwain]

220. Common Knowledge

[AgingAmerican]

226. Is that the best you can come up with? A logical fallacy? Argumentum ad populum

Appeal to popularity.

Why don't you take your own advise and google it, then dazzle us with the results!!

[WillTwain]

232. Here you go. I did not want to waste time. He flip-flopped for political reasons.

Per Ron Suskind’s book “Confidence Men”, all of Obama’s economic advisors were opposed to the auto bailout, but the political calculus won the day (the line was, “What do we do when a worker walks out of a GM factory holding a sign, ‘I guess I wasn’t too big to fail.'”)

Also in Suskind's book, "Austan Goolsbee and Alan Krueger were advocating “let them fail.” Summers initially was with them, but switched sides early during the debate, apparently due to the political calculus (not the economics)."

He did not give a shit about the workers but made a political calculation. We are part of a political calculation not an ideology that cares about us.

I believe he gave interviews early on against the bailout, too. Before they triangulated.

Dazzled?

[AgingAmerican]

335. Zero linkage forthcoming

nt

[WillTwain]

336. The reference is clear, Suskind's book. Please, Give it up. Summers was against the auto bailout

Last edited Tue Mar 31, 2015, 02:17 PM - Edit history (3)

until he was talked out of it for political reasons.

Why do you think Richard Trumka hates the Obama people so much that he said he will not endorse Hillary if she brings Obama's economic team with her.

You can deny it all day long. The facts are the facts. You should thank me for this not try to defame it.

My god, Suskind put it in a book. This is finished. How can you keep denying?

Dazzled?

[WillTwain]

337. Please consider the facts presented.

I know this is not a comfortable issue for many in the Obama or Clinton camps but it is well documented.

The auto bailout came as a result of political pressure of unions. The neoliberals did not want to offer the industry a loan. This is the way it went down, according to multiple reports. Summersand the team's initial reaction was to "let them fall."

Please, do some research. I understand your loyalty, but the truth is the truth.

[madville]

73. Her main goal is to get elected, period

She will take positions and establish strategy based on that goal, nothing more, nothing less.

[L0oniX]

82. No ...she doesn't want to destroy Wall Street.

[KoKo]

269. True...Wall Street owns her. She's been out of the Middle Class too long

to remember what it was all about. So has Bill.

[WillTwain]

271. Yes, I do not care who it is. It does not take long to forget where you come from.

There are a few greats that keep grounded but Hillary is deeply involved with the .! percent.

[still_one]

84. Bullshit. Vote for whoever you want, and support your candidate

Of your choice here on DU, but the Green Party/ libertarian talking points about Hillary are quite tiresome

[LyndaG]

85. No

I think another Republican President would be the final nail in the middle-class coffin.

[WillTwain]

92. Six of one half dozen of another. Republicans would end it faster, though.

[geek tragedy]

103. Just like you people thought Bush=Gore. nt

[WillTwain]

104. Huh?

[geek tragedy]

106. You're pushing the "both parties are the same" nonsense. nt

[WillTwain]

109. Nope. I just pointed out Dayton is awesome. Not all dems are the same.

Hillary has great potential.

[Renew Deal]

89. Save us Ted Cruz

[WillTwain]

95. That would be armageddon

[99Forever]

110. If you seriously think Ted Cruz has any chance of becoming POTUS...

... I know a guy selling bridges, he wants to meet you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. Considering what Bill did to the poor with "Welfare Reform", you might be on to something.

[WillTwain]

98. I am telling you, we have not had a warrior in decades - Bill included.

[questionseverything]

168. yes people seem to forget

before clintons welfare reform single mothers had a small monthly check (cash assistance)

[fredamae]

96. Regardless of the Party and

regardless of the candidate....Promises Made during campaigns are Promises Broken once elected. Period.
Many of those promises can Never be kept by the spoken word of the single person....."I'll do X, Y or Z" knowing they'll need congressional support to do so, is bs. That "we" collectively believe all of that...is also bs.

I no longer care What a candidate says..they All always tell us what they think we want to hear to get elected...then work For those who bought their seats for them....that's my experience and observation.

So, if candidates don't already have an established record of Keeping promises (that are within their control to do so), then they aren't getting "our" (my friends/family) support/votes.

[840high]

253. +x10

[Thinkingabout]

111. You don't know a lot about Hillary Clinton, huh. If you did you would never have

titled this thread about her putting the nail in the coffin of the middle class.

Take some time to read what Hillary's stand is on the issues, here is the link.

http://ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm

If fighting for minimum wage to be tied to wage increases in Congress is against the middle class is a nail, then I will take the nail.
If fighting against wage disparity is a nail in the coffin of the middle class, then I will take the nail.
If fighting for health care is a nail in the coffin of the middle class, then I will take the nail.
If fighting for women's issues is a nail in the coffin of the middle class, then I will take the nail.
If fighting for education is a nail in the coffin of the middle class, then I will take the nail.
If being prochoice is a nail in the coffin of the middle class, then I will take the nail.

There are many other issues, we have to tell the truth.

[WillTwain]

112. The problem is both sides claim to be fighting for higher wages, health care.

We need specifics.

Again, if she does not get Trumka, she will not get me.

[Thinkingabout]

118. I have been a union person for a very long time, I do not agree with every union leader.

We cant skew the truth on one issue, Trumka should know this, if he doesn't then I will have less respect for him. I am sure his issue is TPP or NAFTA and even he should know Hillary did not back NAFTA. I will also add this, as much as I appreciate unions and what they stand for, you and I know the union vote isn't as strong as it was some years back, they have been weakened. As a retiree who walked the picket lines on health care and other issues my union has know kept the line on health insurance. Don't throw the union issue out to me, it will not work.

[WillTwain]

123. Like you, I am a long-time union member and an activist. I know a bit about unions,too.

Trumks is one incredibly smart guy. Check out his bio. I trust him and Leo Gerard. These guys are astute economic minds. They have my back.

[Thinkingabout]

132. IF TRUMKA fights against the DNC nominee my opinion will of him will drop like a rock.

[WillTwain]

134. I have read your posts and have great respect for you

but I am with Trumka. Unions have been ignored for too long and they know it. If it continues another ten years, they will be completely irrelevant. They know what they are doing.

[Thinkingabout]

140. Trumka should read the history on how unions was created and the challenges in the past.

I worked for thirty years building and pushing unions, saw some of the greatest union leaders who worked hard before I was born, who know how to build unions and sorry to say some of the leaders was handed a silver platter and has thrown it away. I still believe in unions, I am not in bed with some of the leaders.

[Wella]

113. "They both view the middle-class as an inefficient relic from a bygone past with huge legacy issues.

I would love to see that quote. I believe that this is EXACTLY what they think, but I've never seen them say it. Any info would be really helpful.

[WillTwain]

115. It is my quote.

[Wella]

116. Did you read anything in particular that led you to write that?

As I said, I agree with it 100%.

[WillTwain]

119. No, I think lot about these things. It all adds up.

[Wella]

121. Well, good on you! I think it's an accurate and memorable quote.

I might borrow it some time.

[WillTwain]

126. Feel free, Maybe a nod to me would be nice.

[Wella]

127. Absolutely.

You'll be properly cited.

Maybe you should get a blog?

[Doctor_J]

181. Actually, they viewed it as something to hold up to show that capitalism is better than communism

Once the USSR disintegrated there was no alternative to capitalism, there was no need to maintain a middle class, and the "rollback" (Michael Parenti's term) began in earnest.

[Phil1934]

114. too much baggage

although she lightened it some by scrubbing her private server that Congress subpoenaed. These issues will dominate the campaign rather than her position.

[Populist_Prole]

120. K&R for the truth

Your second and third paragraphs are a pithy summation of the neoliberal dynamic that's been afflicting mainstream politics for two decades now.

[WillTwain]

128. Quite pithy yourself

[1StrongBlackMan]

124. A Non-Democratic Presidency in 2016 ...

(whomever that Democratic President might be) WILL be the end of the middleclass.

[WillTwain]

130. What about Bernie?

[1StrongBlackMan]

143. Bernie caucuses with the Democrats ...

AND Bernie has said he won't run for President unless he runs as a Democrat.

[WillTwain]

145. So , if Bernie wins the nomination nothing changes?

[1StrongBlackMan]

149. Not really ...

He will be far better than his republican opponent ... just like which ever Democrat takes the Presidency.

He will not solve the 1% problem ... neither will any other Democratic President (until Democrats have all three branches firmly held).

He would be the target of DU slings and arrows ... just like which ever Democrat takes the Presidency.

[WillTwain]

150. Hypothetically: Do you think he would get more done than Hillary, assuming he had the house and senate?

[1StrongBlackMan]

155. More? I don't know ...

with both the House and the Senate, we would get a lot a Democratic agenda items checked off.

[BainsBane]

158. Notice how women are people of color are assumed to be other than middle class

because we just don't count. The OP resents that Clinton is appealing to the majority of the population rather than focusing on who really counts, the white male middle-class.

[1StrongBlackMan]

166. A lot of DUers do ...

well, it's really just a few very loud, very persistent, DUers, that would piss on PoC and women and other systemically disenfranchised groups, and tell us that the piss is good for us.

But on a positive note ... at least they are no longer denying that it is piss and that it is coming from them!

[BainsBane]

173. Definitely.

I prefer to have out on the table so we can clearly see what we are being fed.

[FSogol]

125. If you are planning on being the next David Alexrod, you should look for something else.

"In ten years the cake will be baked"

[WillTwain]

131. I am not looking for anything. They would have me shot.

[Cryptoad]

142. Here we go again

HRC haters tearing her down with negative attacks, yet they offer other candidate .... One must assume that it must be another candidate and the only other running to date is Ted Cruz.....Any negative attack on HRC can only help the GOP as long as no other Democrat candidate is in the running.

The one thing thing they fail to realize is that no Progressive Democrat can ever be elected President, no fat-cats are ever going to support a Progressive Democrat and thanks to the GOP nobody can be elected President without some fat-cats supporting them..........

Hard to grasp the rational of the GOP being a better choice for Prez......

[WillTwain]

144. Man, Where does it say, "I hate Hillary?" Who wants the GOP?

We need a progressive, not a third way democrat.

[Cryptoad]

147. "We need a Progressive"

it would be nice,,, so offer up a progressive candidate and tell us about all their atrributes...... but tearing HRC down when her only candidate in the GOP is only helping the GOP. Thanks to teh GOP,, A progressive Democrat can never be elected President.... sooner you accept that fact the better off you will be.

[bvar22]

228. I don't hae to provide another candidate...

...just because I believe Hillary to be one of he Worst.

Who made up THAT rule?

[Cryptoad]

235. I guess its because ,,,

there is no other candidate other than Ted Cruz,,,,,,, and you really think HRC is worst than Ted? ,,, for some strange reason that does not surprise me,

[WillTwain]

245. Can you give a quote for Bvar supporting Cruz?

Get him.

[Cryptoad]

248. who said he did ?

I don't do research for other people... if you want a quote ,,you will have to provide it. if you want him/her ,,,, personally I dont share you wants

[WillTwain]

250. You spoke for him slanderously.

[Cryptoad]

252. Now you making stuff up again,,,,,,,

[bvar22]

298. That is just bizarre,

....and you are clearly just making stuff up.

[maddiemom]

146. Well, BIOH (Blame it on Hillary).

I'm not a major fan of Hillary's, but I do prefer her to any Republican hopeful in sight. Both Bill and Barack have disappointed me, but Dubya appalled me and Jeb... PLEASE! Such is our sad political system of viable candidates today. There's absolutely no chance we'll have a real liberal savior by next year. I love Warren, but realistically she is desperately needed where she is for now. I HATE the lesser of two evils thing, but it's not quite THAT bad. I 'm afraid that Howard Dean, Jerry Brown, or any other decent liberal in that ilk, will not appeal to our increasingly besieged and therefore "dumbed down" electorate. I'm often surprised at some of the struggling workers( men included) I've met who support Hillary. The woman is bright, savvy, and exceptionally experienced. Her obvious Wall St. flaws are shared, at worst, by any Republican candidate who could possibly be nominated. It should be obvious by now that the POTUS can not make everything right. Obstruction that Obama has faced is even worse than (traitor to his class), FDR, a white man of privilege. The nation was just way more desperate, forced to pay attention, and willing to grasp at any hope in the 1930's.

[WillTwain]

148. Well said,

A bit fatalistic, but well said. Somehow we need to break the cycle. Hillary needs to move far left.

[maddiemom]

163. Fatalistic in that Democrats do "eat their own" far more than Republicans,

who are usually vicious to one another in the primaries, but pull out all the stops in support for their candidates in the actual election. Democrats (Liberals, really) often sulk or mount a challenge to their candidates. As a "child of the Sixties" and now an official senior citizen, I'm just tired, even though I still volunteer and am involved locally in politics. I would like to live to see, at least, a end to the Electoral College and a popular vote for President. We elect everyone else in that way, so WTF?

[ibewlu606]

153. Kicked!

HRC would be an even bigger disappointment for organized Labor than Obama. Other than signing Lily Ledbetter into law, he has totally ignored labor EXCEPT for our PAC funds. As a Building and Construction Trades delegate in Florida, this administration has been a total failure in regards to upholding Davis-Bacon on federal contracts specifically the V.A. hospital at Lake Nona and the complete give away of the work to non-union at Cape Canaveral. When HRC becomes the inevitable nominee, I don't see her changing that policy in any way. For the record, I oppose the XL pipeline. The environmental hazards do not justify the few jobs created, and most likely those few construction jobs would be non-union anyway.

[WillTwain]

154. Thank you for your inside information. I hope everyone reads it.

You should write an OP.

[PrefersaPension]

165. These are stories we need to hear!

Consider writing an OP about this, please. One can tell that a lot of Dems nowadays just don't get "policy" and put their faith out there blindly. When did the Democratic party decide to support the 3rd Way (Corporate Dems/Blue Dogs/NeoLiberals/5%ers) rather than the real Dems?

[BainsBane]

156. Because women and minorities aren't the middle class?

Nice to see someone finally make clear what this opposition is about: Maintaining power as the exclusive domain of white men. You're pissed off that Clinton is working to appeal to the majority of the population. That's not left, not even close. In fact, the same resentment toward the majority of the population is at the heart of the modern-day GOP.

[WillTwain]

159. Wow, I do not know where you got that. Economic justice is for all not just white men, Oy.

[BainsBane]

172. I got it from the first lines of your OP

You were quite clear: "Hillary could be the final nail in the coffin of the middle class. Her plan: she is testing her popularity with women and minorities."

That clearly bothers you. Women and people of color are disproportionately poor, so in that regard many of them are not middle class. They don't earn enough to be in the category. The privilege they lack is not only gender and race but also economic, as are their concerns. No politician who seeks to appeal to those groups can ignore economic concerns.

You go ahead and blame Clinton for the decline of Unions in America. That's as good of a way to ignore the problem as possible. You clearly have no interest in any structural issues. You want to make it all about opposing this one woman from becoming president, especially one who appeals to what is actually the majority of the nation, those whose concerns you see as inferior to your own.

If you did not mean to posit a divide, then you should not have written what you did. There is no logical basis for placing the onus for deindustrialization and the decline of unions onto Clinton. These are structural issues that have been developing since the late 70s. That coffin was nailed shut some time ago. The question is why people do blame her. You showed us why. She is appealing to women and "minorities," and that truly is unacceptable for those of your mindset.

What I resent is that people of your view try to claim ownership of the term leftist. There is nothing leftist about resentment toward the majority of the people or that politicians might appeal to them. We are in fact the majority of Democratic voters.

[WillTwain]

179. There is so much here that is false.

I am not blaming Clinton for unions declining.

I am all about structural issues, like needing more and stronger unions. Who, by the way, will do more for women and minority wages than anybody. I worked in unions. There are hiring quotas and equal pay regardless of gender.

You are so far off base.

Next, I am asking Hillary to define herself on the issues of neoliberalism and declining unions.

My god, women and minorities are workers along with white males. We are all workers, in this together. You are divided women and minorities from white men. I simply pointed to her strategy. If she can get elected without labor, she will not need to work with them much.

As I said, when she gets Trumka, she gets me.

[BainsBane]

256. Then why did you express dismay

Last edited Sun Mar 29, 2015, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

That Clinton was appealing to women and "minorities" and arguing that will be the death nail in the coffin of the middle class? It is you who made that argument. You wrote it, no one else.

Her 'strategy" is the same strategy all Democratic candidates employ: they appeal to Democratic voters. The argument that speaking explicitly to concerns of women, LGBT Americans, and people of color is divisive is exactly what the GOP argues, and they have been doing so for quite some time now.

If you want women and the rest of the MAJORITY to join with you in political goals, you would do well not to express alarm that politicians seek to appeal to our interests. That doesn't read like someone who believes we are all in it together. Then you insist she should focus her attentions on an even smaller minority, union workers, because you think that is what counts. This isn't 1950 or 1970. While Democratic politicians welcome and court union support, no politician is going to run on a platform about unions in a time when 11.7 percent of the male population and 10.5 of the female population are represented by unions. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm As much as you might wish things were different, they aren't.


You have reason to be alarmed that politicians address women, people of color, and LGBT Americans. Straight, white male privilege is slipping away, and you and your pals can wring your hands about the awful woman presidential candidate until the cows come home, but you can't change the fact that it isn't all about you anymore. You share this nation with others who are no longer excluded from the body politic. That means politicians speak to us as well.

I don't find your argument that you don't mean what you write at all convincing, particularly when you double down on it by talking about being "divisive" by addressing the demographic composition of the electorate today. You can find politicians who share your belief that there is something wrong with speaking to the majority of Americans; the GOP is full of them.

[Doctor_J]

183. He said if she can get elected solely on social issues, she'll abandon economic issues

Why to you insist on turning this (and everything, really) into a racial and gender war?

[BainsBane]

257. If you believe speaking to the concerns of the majority of the population

is only about social issues, you really have no concept.

Why do I insist? Why did he write an OP expressing alarm that Clinton is appealing to women and what he calls "minorities," which are actually the majority of the population? He is the one who decided that is somehow separate from concerns about the middle class. He wrote it. not me. Then you come along and insist to speak to the majority of the population is to focus only on "social issues," as though the majority of Americans aren't concerned about jobs and the economy?

Why have you and he decided that the only people who matter are a small minority of the country? Why do you assume the interests of women, people of color, and LGBT Americans aren't also economic? Where is the logic in that?

This rhetoric about division, race, and gender war comes straight from the GOP. They have been making that same argument since 2008, and now we have people here repeating it while pretending to be on the left. It's so absurd as to be laughable.

[WillTwain]

266. How do you talk about women without using the word women? Non-males? Child-bearers? X-Ys?

Why do you think the matters of the middle-class men is not important? Where is the logic in this? How does it feel to have tour mind read and trivialized. Open your mind to the bigger story. We are all in a big calculation. And yes, HRC breaks us down by gender, race, class and of course money.

I resent your assumption that i do not think women, minorities, LGBT have economic interests.

My argument is exactly that. Hillary's past will be negative to all in the 99%. Stop separating and elevating your interests from the group. Unions solves this splintered thinking.

[BainsBane]

287. The question is

why you find it so troubling that women's interests are addressed? Open my mind to poor white men feeling trivialized? You've got to be fucking kidding me. God forbid a politician acknowledge the majority of the electorate as opposed to focusing entirely on you and those like you. How dare they acknowledge anyone else matters? The nerve.

You resent my reading what you wrote. If you meant something else, that's what you would have written. You are the one who continues, now in three posts to insist there is something wrong about "dividing" American by concerning oneself with the majority as opposed to the minority, the poor oppressed white men who feel so marginalized because politicians acknowledge others matter. If you gave a shit about the 99 percent, you wouldn't be so upset that the Democratic Party--not just Clinton but the entire party--speaks to the concerns of that majority. You wouldn't wring your hands about their appealing to "women and minorities." The only difference in Clinton's appealing to women, people of color, and LGBT Americans is that she also happens to be a woman, which only makes you feel more "trivialized."

What this is about is the fact that you are pissed off that anyone else is addressed. America has changed. As much as you long for the 1950s when the majority was excluded from political consideration and participation, society marches on. You aren't trivialized. You just aren't the only one who counts, and that is what gets in your craw.

I might give a shit about how you felt if you weren't so determined that the rest of America be erased from consideration to satisfy your sense of entitlement. As you rail about how "centrist" and Third Way Democrats are, you attack the party from the right, not the left.

[WillTwain]

288. Where do you get that I am against women?

Mind boggling take on the OP.

[BainsBane]

297. That would be from multiple posts

bemoaning the Democratic party's appealing to women and your comment about the concerns of white middle-class men being trivialized.

While women share many concerns with men, we also have issues unique to our gender: equal pay for equal work; reproductive rights; and while not exclusively women's concerns, rape and domestic violence disproportionately affect women. We are also disproportionately poor and bear the lion's share of child care responsibilities. That a politician addresses those concerns doesn't mean you are "trivialized." It just mean you aren't all that matters.

[WillTwain]

300. Can you tell me words that "bemoan" woman?

[WillTwain]

290. Just for the record, are you serious? My entire goal is raising the bar for everybody through econom

Why do you slice women out of the idea of "we?"

Where is the dripping sarcasm icon in your comments?

[BainsBane]

299. You led with alarm about Clinton's appealing to women

I sliced out nothing. Your last post asked "how do you talk about women without saying women." You don't, but the question is why you find it so disturbing that Clinton or any other politician addresses the concerns of women? Add to that the "minorities" you reference, who together with women are the overwhelming majority of the nation.

You invoke GOP rhetoric that acknowledging the demographic composition of the nation amounts to division. You insist Clinton should build her campaign around the 11 percent of the adult population organized into unions. I'm all for unions, and I consider the decline of unions a major problem. However, I resent your claim that there is something wrong with addressing the electorate as it exists rather than focusing on the minority you care about, or ignoring the interests of the majority and speaking in ways that make you feel comfortable, which is to frame debates as though it were all about you. You share this country with people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds and genders, and politicians are not going to exclude them from political discourse to make you feel comfortable. They address us one way or another, either to court our votes or to rail against us as parasites.

[WillTwain]

303. Women, minorities and whites all have one thing in common. They are workers.

Can you point out disturbed language directed at women?

Those are strategic categories ,like white males. Political strategies could be talking about French men that play harmonica, but they are not.

The point is they are purposely focusing on social issues not the economy. They will appeal to women this time and it will prove to be a smart move But this does not equal lifting wages for women. That can only happen by increasing union influence and government involvement like raising the minimum wage. These help ALL AMERICANS. Does this make sense. I am concerned with EVERYBODY. You only care about yourself. What would you like Hillary do for ALL AMERICANS?

We voted for an African American president and the standard of living dropped for 99 percent of Americans. Voting for identity is not a solution for ALL AMERICANS.

[YoungDemCA]

310. "We voted for an African American president and the standard of living dropped for 99 percent

of Americans."

Anyone else see anything logically troublesome about the above sentence?

[WillTwain]

313. You are really spinning. Voting for principles not identity is the key.

[WillTwain]

314. Just for your information

My white House wish list includes:

Keith Ellison, an African America progressive from MN

Elizabeth Warren, A woman from Mass.

Raul Grijalva, A Mexican American from Arizona

They are all very progressive Democrats.

Nice try.

[upaloopa]

169. You forgot to start off with "in my opinion" because that is all it is

[WillTwain]

171. Yep

[Doctor_J]

178. More than half the posts at DU, especially in GD, are opinions. Few have the disclaimer

your post is a waste of space

[upaloopa]

222. As is yours

[Doctor_J]

182. She might cover all the bases and patronize labor as well

She'll turn her back on them once elected of course but I predict some pretense of support.

[WillTwain]

184. Only if she needs them. I honestly think if she feels she does not need them she will keep distance.

Promises to unions can cause big problems after the elections.

[woo me with science]

186. K&R Not just the middle class, but the chance of reclaiming democracy itself.

Hillary represents the continuation of everything that has gone horribly wrong in America over the last several decades: not just the deliberate looting of the middle class, but the dismantling of our democracy itself. She represents the unchecked continuation and escalation of the ongoing, vicious corporate coup of this previously democratic nation.

We have come to accept the flat-out lies and propaganda assaults of corporate government as business as usual. We shouldn't.

Insincere, massively publicized speeches about reining in military power, followed immediately by huge escalations in military power, a new war in Syria, a new war in Iraq, carpet bombing of captive populations in Gaza, massive escalation of our military in Africa, outrageous targeting of Venezuela as a "threat," a continuation of the unconscionable droning of civilians in multiple countries with which we are not at war, and a new TRILLION DOLLAR ramp-up of nuclear weapons...That's not acceptable.

Lying, manipulative claims to care about the environment, while selling off expanses of the Gulf of Mexico for drilling, opening the Atlantic Coast for drilling, relentless support for fracking, and defense of the most environmentally predatory "free trade" agreements in this nation's history.....That's not acceptable.

Shameless, lying speeches extolling the government's transparency and protection of whistleblowers and respect for journalism, when we have all seen the treatment of Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden by this administration, and when we have all witnessed the outrageous targeting of investigative journalists through abuse of the Espionage Act....That's not acceptable.

Disgusting claims to represent the interests of the 99 percent, while stuffing the cabinet with predatory corporatists, signing cuts in aid for the poor and disabled repeatedly, putting SS on the table as a "greater evil" to justify the imposition of austerity greater even that that Paul Ryan initially requested, giving nauseating speeches about the need to eat our peas while repeating Republican LIES tying SS to the defiicit, personally lobbying to gain settlements for criminal bankers, and then unconscionably lobbying for the criminal CRONYBUS to even further deregulate banks and allow the looting of America to happen again.....That's not acceptable.

Hillary will change none of this.

We are fed on slick PR and orchestrated lies as standard MO of our government now. This nation has sunk to the level of a corrupt, totalitarian state in its contempt for its own citizens, all because corporate money now drives everything it does. This is the difference between a representative government and a corporate government. By definition, corporations exist to grow their own profit and power. They don't represent anyone but themselves. They manipulate to grow profit, just like our government constantly manipulates us to sell the profitable, predatory corporate agenda it has already decided to implement against our interests.

And now Hillary, author of the predatory TPP and enthusiastic supporter of expanding H1B visas, is lying to our faces that she cares about income inequality. Lying to our faces that she will solve the problems of this nation, when she will perpetuate not only the wars that drain our treasury and enslave us to the One Percent, but also the malignant, unaccountable, surveilling secret government that has been deliberately grown alongside the one we are taught about in school.


Time to reject the corporate purchase of our party and our government by those who are doing nothing less than dismantling democracy. Time to reject the lies.


Huge K&R.



Hillary Clinton's leading role in drafting the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667554

Hillary Clinton and Trade Deals: That “Giant Sucking Sound”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101761

Hillary Clinton Cheerleads for Biotech and GMOs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112772326

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

More from Hillary Clinton's State Department: The fascistic TISA (Trade in Services Agreement)
http://m.thenation.com/blog/180572-grassroots-labor-uprising-your-bank

How Hillary Clinton's State Department sold fracking to the world
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251376647

Hillary Clinton Sides with NSA over Snowden Disclosures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101695441

On the NSA, Hillary Clinton Is Either a Fool or a Liar
http://m.thenation.com/article/180564-nsa-hillary-clinton-either-fool-or-liar

Corporate Warfare: Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

The Bill and Hillary Clinton Money Machine Taps Corporate Cash
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025189257

Hillary's Privatization Plan: TISA kept more secret than the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014829628

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

Some of Hillary Clinton's statements on Social Security.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024379279

Hillary Clinton's GOLDMAN SACHS PROBLEM.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025049343

Ring of Fire: Hillary Clinton - The Perfect Republican Candidate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209285

How Americans Need Answers From Hillary Clinton On TPP, KXL, Wall St & More
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017181611

Hillary Clinton Left Out By Liberal Donor Club
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025809071

Why Wall Street Loves Hillary
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016106575

Hillary Clinton: Neocon-lite
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101684986

Interactive graphic of Hillary Clinton's connections to the Forbes top 400 (Follow link in post)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025824981#post9

[WillTwain]

193. Woo Mee with facts.

Publish this piece and use is it for your campaign speech.

Post this on DU.

Excellent read and well written.

Thank you.

[Cheese Sandwich]

194. So I guess you won't be campaigning for Hillary?

LOL great post. You summed it up well.

[Maedhros]

324. Indeed!

How many times do we have to be worked over by our supposed "champions" before we catch on to the con?

[hifiguy]

217. Of course. That's the plan. That's why the Powers that Be,

primarily the bank$ter$ and the MIC are so cozy with her. She will never rebel against her owners, which is why they trust her completely.

[WillTwain]

219. Did learn something today

She pushed for minimum wage increases while in the senate. Beats Obama's record.

[hifiguy]

221. That was a while ago.

Before she sold out completely to the dark side. We KNOW who her real friends are these days:

War criminal Henry Kissinger, who she lauded as a "defender of human rights"



and Goldman's Lloyd Blankfein, another BFF of hers who should be in jail for life for financial crimes against humanity:

:large

One's chosen associations say much about one's character, or lack thereof.

[WillTwain]

224. Evil and Eviler

The thing to think about is the minimum wage has to go up so if you can get your name on the bill, it gives you notoriety. From 2000-2006, it was a gesture because Reps controlled everything. By 2007, it had been ten years since they passed legislation. Hillary jumped on it.

She deserves credit.

The problem with her bill: It was a low poverty to near poverty increase that was not permanently indexed to inflation. The increase was sort of inadequate.

That said, it was an increase. How Obama can handle being the only democratic president since the min wage inception to not demand and get a bill to his desk is a head shaker.

[upaloopa]

230. We all associate with bad people in our life times

That doesn't make us bad people.
Find something with substance to attack her next time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

265. It never happens, silly...

[WillTwain]

270. What social event is that? Is that a birthday gift?

[trueblue2007]

227. hey you! you got a link where she says that?

I WANT TO HEAR HER SAY : ... "If she feels social issues can get her elected, she will ignore labor other than some patronizing blather."

You can't because Ms. Clinton never has said these words

[WillTwain]

229. Who would? And Bush would never tell you there are no WMD's. What is your point?

[workinclasszero]

233. I'm sure President Cruz or Rand or Huckabee

and a republican Congress would be MUCH MUCH MUCH better than Hillary, eh purists?

Welcome to the coming fascist theocracy, Hillary haters, I hope you fucking enjoy it!

[WillTwain]

238. Only a fucking idiot would vote for those losers.

Hillary kicks ass compared to those wackjobs. High five.

[840high]

255. Please - not that over used crap again.

[Major Hogwash]

260. Damn, there's that cake reference again!!

Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it,

aw, forget it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WillTwain]

261. Can I join the Sheshe2 club?

She she really really likes likes me me.

[Sheepshank]

267. Finding it interesting that just this morning

I have read several "Hillary just can't win, won't win, scuttles run, incorrectly prognisticate her platform (which she has even talked about yet)"...from low count OP posters.

Is she that fearsome?

[WillTwain]

275. Hillary will win handily. She has no Republican competition. First in history will carry her.

[Sheepshank]

277. Obama had no Republican competition--twice.

I don't understand what you mean.

[WillTwain]

284. I think Hillary will win easily for many reasons.

She is incredibly qualified, has bad competition and has a wave of women behind her. She cannot lose if she wins the primary.

[brooklynite]

289. When did she not have Republican competition?

Are you referring to her 2000/2006 Senate campaigns?

[WillTwain]

291. I am getting ahead of myself, looking at her likely Republican opponents for 2016.

[WillTwain]

292. Obama not Hillary

[Sheepshank]

294. I had said that Obama had no Rep Competition

I think maybe you mis read?

[WillTwain]

296. Good Enough

Obama had no competition and Hillary is is the same situation.

I think we agree.

[YoungDemCA]

311. The ratfuckers are getting alarmed

[mstinamotorcity2]

301. I can't tell you what her platform

is or will be. She hasn't spoken to or on my behalf.

[WillTwain]

304. I can't tell either. I hope that changes when she announces.

[mstinamotorcity2]

308. My point.

Looks like everybody putting horse before the cart. This is not like her having a turn at some board game. This is for our very lives.

[WillTwain]

315. Darn right it is. This is not a joke to be taken lightly.

[Frances]

302. If you are really a Democrat

please post positive stuff about the candidate you support. You can compare and contrast your candidate's stand on the issues with other possible Dem nominees

But just tearing down possible Dem nominees is a waste of time and energy and fits right into the Repub plan

[WillTwain]

305. Thanks for allowing me to point out Bernie Sanders and his 12 point plan are great.

I have written this many times. This article is about the front-runner. Her position demands more attention. My buddy JOE Blow is a Socialist, but nobody knows him, so I probably will not write about him.

Check out Bernie's 12 point plan. I am quite surprised if you have not seen it. Equally surprised that Hillary has not made clear her plan for America, announced or not. Bernie has not announced but is trying to make a difference anyway.

Yes, I brag up Bernie, Elizabeh, Sherrod Brown, Mark Dayton, Governor Brown and their records all the time.

[WillTwain]

307. By the way, if you read the thread, rather than simply attack, you can read about me bragging up dem

Mark Dayton rocks. I first wrote about him in August 2014. Subsequently, other writers have followed up on the story. But not only do i brag up Democrats, I do it first.

[YoungDemCA]

309. What a gross thread

I guess women and minorities have their issues reduced to "social issues" that "don't affect everyone" (i.e. they don't affect straight, white, middle-class men).

[WillTwain]

312. Thankfully, most people understand the piece is not about women and minorities. It is a complex

issue for some.

[Maedhros]

318. The corporate sector has learned a few things in the last few decades.

One thing they've learned is that when they push bad policy through a Democratic administration, those who might normally oppose the bad policy will instead cheer it.

For example, if a Republican President had tried to gin up an intervention in Syria based upon flimsy evidence for a sarin gas attack (which was likely a false-flag operation by Turkey: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin), Democrats would have been in an uproar. However, let a Democratic President and Secretary of State do it, and Democrats fall in line nicely. The same strategy also worked well in Libya.

They are taking the same tack with the TPP. If Romney had won in 2012, Democrats would be lambasting his Administration for foisting this agreement on American working- and middle-classes already reeling from an historically savage recession. Instead have Hillary, the Democratic President-In-Waiting, craft it, and let Obama preside over installing it, and the good Party soldiers will work tirelessly to keep the leftist rabble from complaining too much. Then, when Hillary is installed, she can oversee it's (secret) implementation and the same soldiers will keep the TPP out of the headlines.

A wolf in sheep's clothing can eat more sheep than a naked one.

[WillTwain]

320. Yes, Yes, Yes, We Have A Winner.

Bill signed NAFTA and overturned Glass/Steagal and welfare reform.

Obama signed the Cromnibus, extended the Bush tax cuts and attempted Social Security cuts and the home-run, TPP, is in his sights. This is a short list.

And the devotees will defend them till the cows come home.

And democrats wonder why we need to pound Hillary.

[Maedhros]

322. The current hyper-partisan political climate is by design, and crafted by both sides.

Keep each tribe focused on the shenanigans of the other, and they won't pay attention when you implement your policy.

For example, the front page of DU always highlights a story mocking some Republican personality. Why? Because it generates hits, and while DU members swarm to the comment section for the Two Minute Hate they are ignoring the posts about how the TPP is being crafted to destroy American labor and environmental regulations. I don't visit Conservative sites, but I imagine they do the same kind of thing.

[WillTwain]

325. I

wonder if members of DU are actually double agents working for the Republicans. I think that I am a reasonable guy. But I get ripped over really small infractions. I got bounced from the site for 90 days after writing less than 400 posts. It was so obvious that I was targeted and set up from the start. I was really surprised that a lefty site would attack me.

Yesterday, I was banned from HRC group. I never posted or even knew of the forum.

[Maedhros]

327. DU is the home of a great number of personality cultists, either for Obama or for Hillary.

They tend to swarm on posts that depict their heroes in less than perfect light, and they can play rough with the alert system.

Don't worry about being excluded from the HRC group - I find no reason to visit there, you probably won't either.

[WillTwain]

329. Peace Brother or Sister

[Maedhros]

331. Likewise! [n/t]

[WillTwain]

332. I just

got called a dim-witted, idiot and another dozen more insults.

You need thick skin. Politics is a blood sport.

[Maedhros]

333. Focus on policy, eschew personal insults, ignore those who sneer. [n/t]

[WillTwain]

334. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - Gandhi

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

326. I heard she beats kittens with a wooden spoon

[WillTwain]

328. True, But she insists the spoon is made in China with slave-labor. TPP guideline.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

330. VERY clever LOL --- personally, I want a con as president so we can legislate hate some more

cant ever have enough hate